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Please see talk:Warsaw Pact#Warsaw Pact vs Eastern Bloc. —Michael Z. 2007-08-05 07:17 Z

Glad to see that my major comments have been taken into account by Mosedschurte. Few issues still remain, however.

1. Moldavian SSR was created via combining of six and a half counties of Bessarabia with the westernmost part of the already extant MASSR (an autonomous entity within the Ukrainian SSR). In contrast, the present map creates an impression that the whole territory of present days Moldova had been the part of pre-1940 Romania.
2. By showing the changes of western Polish borders, the map pretends to reflect all border changes in central and eastern Europe during 1939-48, that is definitely not the case. For instance the border between Romania and Bulgaria is shown in its post-war status, however southern Dorbuja was transfered to Bulgaria after the annexation of Bessarabia. Minor changes of Hungarian borders also took place after WWII as compared with 1938. I am not sure about other border shifts.
3. Taking into account that the territory of Poland decreased as compared with 1938, the "expanded satellite states" looks somewhat odd.
4. Therefore, it seems to hard to summarise in few words what caption of this map should be, although a caption is definitely needed.
   --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Latvia (Abrebe district) and Estonia (two districts) were annexed by Russian SFR after WWII. Really this map not satisfy to the wikipedia (not high) quality standarts. Sorry. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 18:29, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And Vilno region was annexed to Lithuania. --Paul Siebert (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And Crimea to Ukraine (it is in Ukraine colors, but it became Ukrainian in 1956), Bialystok and Przemysl to Poland. This map needs a deadline of boundaries changes. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 19:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. I didn't notice that before. One more issue: the legend's name is controversial, since there were no Eastern bloc in 1938. These words should be removed, and the caption should be introduced, something like "Border changes in Eastern Europe in 1938-48".--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "Moldavian SSR was created via combining of six and a half counties of Bessarabia with the westernmost part of the already extant MASSR (an autonomous entity within the Ukrainian SSR). In contrast, the present map creates an impression that the whole territory of present days Moldova had been the part of pre-1940 Romania." (Paul Siebert)

• Fixed (Transnistria exchange shown)

Re: "the border between Romania and Bulgaria is shown in its post-war status, however southern Dorbuja was transfered to Bulgaria after the annexation of Bessarabia. " (Paul Siebert)

• Fixed (Southern Dorbuja)

Re: "Minor changes of Hungarian borders also took place after WWII as compared with 1938. I am not sure about other border shifts." (Paul Siebert)

• Fixed - the Bratislava Bridgehead. Other than that, I thought that Hungary had to give back all of its Axis gains (prior losses under the Treaty of Trianon) with the Treaty of Paris and go back to its 1938 borders.

Re: "Taking into account that the territory of Poland decreased as compared with 1938, the "expanded satellite states" looks somewhat odd. Therefore, it seems to hard to summarise in few words what caption of this map should be, although a caption is definitely needed." (Paul Siebert)

• Changed - Never thought about the aggregate land expansion/contraction aspect of the term. I just changed it to "New Satellite State Land".

Re: "Latvia (Abrebe district) and Estonia (two districts) were annexed by Russian SFR after WWII." (Bogomolov.PL)

• Fixed (all three)

Re: "And Vilno region was annexed to Lithuania." (Paul Siebert)

• Fixed

Re: "And Crimea to Ukraine (it is in Ukraine colors, but it became Ukrainian in 1956)" (Bogomolov.PL)

• The Crimea (RSFSR then) is not on the map. If you mean the Black Sea adjacent Ukrainian section, it was Romanian and then part of the Ukraine since 1940 as the Izmail Oblast. In 1954, it was merged into the Odessa Oblast of the Ukraine, which just created a larger Oblast.

Re: "Bialystok and Przemysl to Poland." (Bogomolov.PL)

• Bialystok and Przemysl were part of Poland in 1938 and also in 1948, and remain pink, just west of the eastern border.

Re: "One more issue: the legend's name is controversial, since there were no Eastern bloc in 1938. These words should be removed, and the caption should be introduced, something like "Border changes in Eastern Europe in 1938-48"." (Paul Siebert)

• Changed - I made sure to rename it from the original version the "Eastern Bloc Area" instead of Eastern Bloc so that it did not state when the Bloc was created (i.e., One could show the "Eastern Bloc Area" in any time, 1000 B.C., etc). I just changed it to "Eastern Bloc Area Border Changes 1938 to 1948"Mosedschurte (talk) 09:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• North Bukovina again and again - it was Romanian, but annexed to Ukraine (Chernivtsi oblast)
• Karelo-Finnish SSR again and again - this republic was not annexed Finnish territories only, it was mostly recent Karelia Republic - to the West from Ladoga lake (where are RSFSR colors).Bogomolov.PL
• Kaliningrad oblast boundary with Lithuania has to be 1938 border color, Lithuania/Latvia, Latvia/Estonia, Latvia/RSFSR, Estonia/RSFSR also. (talk) 11:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "North Bukovina again and again - it was Romanian, but annexed to Ukraine (Chernivtsi oblast)" (Bogomolov.PL)

• Fixed

Re: "Karelo-Finnish SSR again and again - this republic was not annexed Finnish territories only, it was mostly recent Karelia Republic - to the West from Ladoga lake (where are RSFSR colors)." (Bogomolov.PL)

• Fixed

Re: "Kaliningrad oblast boundary with Lithuania has to be 1938 border color, Lithuania/Latvia, Latvia/Estonia, Latvia/RSFSR, Estonia/RSFSR also." (Bogomolov.PL)

• That was the Germany-Lithuania border in 1938. Border lines which were border lines in both 1938 and 1948, even in different capacities (which occurs all over) are in white. In this map, only new border lines are in black or green to see actual changes in border line placement (not border character). The map colors show the character of underlying land.Mosedschurte (talk) 15:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is much better now. I am not sure I din't miss something, but for now the map looks fine. Thanks.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Karelian Isthmus former Finnish-Soviet boundary has to be black, Karelo-Finnish and RSFSR boundary needs to be white.

GENERAL OPINION ABOUT SOVIET SSRs: I think we don't need these boundaries at this map, if we erase Byelorussian, Ukrainian and Karelo-Finnish boundaries will be completely clear different nature of Lithuania/Latvia/Estonia as former independent states. The SSRs boundaries were not any international boundaries, but entire administration divisions only, this divisions are out of the article scope.Bogomolov.PL (talk) 20:07, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

EasternBloc BorderChange38-48.svg map description.

1. Moldavian SSR was not annexed as it was created after the Bessarabia annexation from large Bessarabia part and large part of former Moldavian ASSR. So if even annexed but partially only, Transnistria not including
2. The Transnistria exchange between the Ukrainian SSR and the Moldavian SSR was not any territories exchange (Moldavia gets Transnistria, Ukraine gets Izmail and Chernivtsi oblasts). USSR annexed Romanian territories and divided them in 3 portions (as with former Polish lands divided in 3 pieces). Moldavian SSR was created as a result of this "exchange", so it was not a Moldavian-Ukrainian exchange. These administrative divisions of USSR were not able to act independently, but over direct Moscow rulers control.
3. Izmail oblast was not annexed as it was created after the annexation, this territory historical name was South Bessarabia or Bujak
4. Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union - yes, this is more correct description as only after the annexation this territories were divided with Ukrainian SSR, Byelorussian SSR and independent Lithuania. So North Bukovina, Hertza and Bessarabia were annexed, but not Chernivtsi and Izmail oblasts and Moldavian SSR.
5. What is the difference:"Transfer of territories" (German to Poland with total ethnic cleasing) and "annexation" (Polish to USSR with partial ethnic cleasing)? Both territories changes are respected as legal by the respective governments in 1948 (sorry, German government was not sovereign). The map reflects 1948 situation, isn't it?
6. Why Dantzig annexation was not mentioned?
7. Kaliningrad oblast was created in April 1946 after the annexation, so Northern East Prussia was annexed.
8. Abrene district was not Latvia part, but Latvian SSR part, so transferred from Latvian SSR to the RSFSR
9. Ivangorod and Pechory districts were not Estonia, but Estonian SSR parts when transferred to the RSFSR
10. Lithuania (not Lithuanian SSR) got the Vilnius region from USSR, but not directly from Poland (see Soviet–Lithuanian Mutual Assistance Treaty).
11. Not a part of Karelo-Finnish territory was annexed by USSR, but a part of Finnish territory. As this map deadline is 1948, as this territory was transferred to RSFSR in 1944, so it was not a Karelo-Finnish SSR part in 1948
12. Annexation of Czechoslovac Carpatian Ruthenia by the USSR

Bogomolov.PL (talk) 12:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "EasternBloc BorderChange38-48.svg map description." (Bogomolov.PL)

• As these are comments about the map "description" text contained in the map file text, and not the colors, border or legend of the map itself, this should be discussed in File talk:EasternBloc BorderChange38-48.svg.
• I copied your comments to that page and am including a response, along with several changes to the file descrption text. Mosedschurte (talk) 15:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've posted more comments at the discussion page, but I have several problems to be fixed at this map.

• Italian Fiume and Zara annexaton by Yugoslavia was not shown at this map
• East Germany - West Germany boundary needs to be green as a new one.
• Karelian Isthmus former Soviet-Finnish boundary needs to be black as 1938 boundaries
• Karelian Isthmus was transferrd to RSFSR in 1944, so it was not a Karelo-Finnish SSR part in 1948 and needs be separated from Karelo-Finnish SSR with green line.

Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Eastern Bloc/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I shall be reviewing this page against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status. Jezhotwells (talk) 20:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quick fail criteria assessment

1. The article completely lacks reliable sources – see Wikipedia:Verifiability.

   • 

2. The topic is treated in an obviously non-neutral way – see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.

   • 

3. There are cleanup banners that are obviously still valid, including cleanup, wikify, NPOV, unreferenced or large numbers of fact, clarifyme, or similar tags.

   • 

4. The article is or has been the subject of ongoing or recent, unresolved edit wars.

   • 

5. The article specifically concerns a rapidly unfolding current event with a definite endpoint.

   • 

No problems found when checking against quick fail criteria, on to main review. Jezhotwells (talk) 20:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose):

   • The article is reasonably well written

   b (MoS):

   • I don't think the Lead adequately summarises such a complex article.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references):

   • One dead link found, ref #21 [1]; other links fixed using WP:CHECKLINKS. ...followed by a Soviet annexation of roughly the same eastern Finnish territories as the prior interim peace treaty as part of the Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic. has a citation needed tag. I note that some of the citation styles are inconsistent, eg. ref 68 & 73;

   updated. n

   Citation need tag still outstanding. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

   b (citations to reliable sources):

   • Sources appear reliable - I assume good faith for those that I cannot access.

   c (OR):

3. It is broad in its scope.

   a (major aspects):

   b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):

   b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   • It would be good to have a little more detail in the captions of leaders rather than just the name.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   • A few relatively minor point, apart from the lead which needs more work. On hold for seven days. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:29, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
   • Lead is still inadequate, citation needed tag not addressed, so not listing at this time. Jezhotwells (talk) 21:12, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]