Talk:Banovina of Croatia: Difference between revisions
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*I am ''supremely indifferent'' as to whether or not you consider the word "puppet" to be unnecessary by your own opinion. It is correct, it is sourced, and removing it is clear POV-vandalism aimed at destroying factual accuracy by not mentioning ''crucial'' facts about a mentioned state's status. If I wish to add more detail to this article, you have absolutely no right to remove it because you don't like it personally. |
*I am ''supremely indifferent'' as to whether or not you consider the word "puppet" to be unnecessary by your own opinion. It is correct, it is sourced, and removing it is clear POV-vandalism aimed at destroying factual accuracy by not mentioning ''crucial'' facts about a mentioned state's status. If I wish to add more detail to this article, you have absolutely no right to remove it because you don't like it personally. |
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*It may be incorrect to write up the FS Croatia as the successor, and you may have a point there... While both have arguments, I've been considering switching the 1943 successor state to DF Yugoslavia myself. If you object to the current successor, this alteration is fine. --<font face="Eras Bold ITC">[[User:DIREKTOR|<font color="DimGray">DIREKTOR</font>]] <sup>([[User talk:DIREKTOR|<font color="Gray">TALK</font>]])</sup></font> 22:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC) |
*It may be incorrect to write up the FS Croatia as the successor, and you may have a point there... While both have arguments, I've been considering switching the 1943 successor state to DF Yugoslavia myself. If you object to the current successor, this alteration is fine. --<font face="Eras Bold ITC">[[User:DIREKTOR|<font color="DimGray">DIREKTOR</font>]] <sup>([[User talk:DIREKTOR|<font color="Gray">TALK</font>]])</sup></font> 22:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC) |
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== Discuss issues and not your believes == |
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*(1) You are pushing POV as if the ISC never existed, you even tryed to remove it from the [[:Template:History of Croatia]]. Its existence cannot be removed. It cannot be removed because you and me both would regard it obsolete and ''harmful'' towards ''Croatia'', or because it was or ''wasn’t'' a state, but because it existed and history do not judge states, nations, etc. but regimes and individuals. |
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*(2) you and simmilar POVers continue your rude attempt to include in almost every article where the ISC is mentioned the phrase "puppet" (natturaly with a sentence or two about its creation, and such sentences). This is simply wrong, Banovina of Croatia has nothing to do with the ISC. Its history cannot be "tainted" with any description of what happened latter. We have the ISC article for that. |
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*(3) By using POV like ISC was not ''independent, a state, or Croatian'' is diminishing the responsability of that state in every conceivable way. The ISC had been a state created after the torture and the dictatorship of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, it was created with the help of the Axis, it was legaly created since Italy and Bulgaria were not States Parties of the Hague Conventions (and the Kingdom of Albania under the House of Savoy also) + there were no international law on how states gain independence or statehood, even today that chapter of international law is being written (Kosovo). It is a completely different story the regime (Ustashi) or the legal system (dictatorship with limited assembly — written with small caps) |
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*(4) Banovina of Croatia as an administrative and ''federal'' unit ceased to exist in 1941, this can be proven by reading some of notable historians (all of them are not belevolent towards the ISC), Croatian Peasent Party members that went with the Royal Govt in Exile tryed to protect the Cvetković-Maček Agreement for the re-creation of the Banovina of Croatia after the war — but without no assurances for that re-creation. |
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*(5) No ''concensus'' (you have not even provided a precise link) is for '''all times'''. Your POV is clear to us all, you defend the theory of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia existing ''on paper'' but fail to provide on what basis did the Allies recognize the Royal Govt in Exile. Before Teheran the Soviet had not recognized the Royal Govt in Exile but only the Partisans. After that (in Nov 1943) a compromise was made and the other two major Allied Powers (US and UK) recognized Partisans while the USSR recognized a 50/50 policy on the after war influence over Yugoslavia. At that point in time the Allied decided to '''re-create'' Yugoslavia after the war as a equall joint venture partnership and not the Kingdom of Yugoslavia under the Karageorgevitch. |
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*(6) Banovina of Croatia was an administrative unit that outgrew into a federal unit in the ''new-deal'' of Cvetković-Maček. I do not consider the Banovina as a precedent for the ISC nor the precedent for the FSC. The FSC was before the 1946-01-31 Constitution of FPRY a state which would became a member of the Yugoslav federation, but was in that time virtually independent from Belgrade (due to poor phone, rail, etc. connections between Šibenik early 1945, and latter Split based headquoters). |
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*(7) It is POV and vandalism to insist on writing defamations in the article that is not connected with the history of the ISC. Like the article on Croatian decorations where some biased and "narrow-banded" users the POV of your choice "puppet, fascist, created by, etc." to push POV and spread propaganda in an article that has no '''real''' connection with the issue. |
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*(8) The Democratic Federal Yugoslavia could have been constituted when AVNOJ declared itself as a Temporary National Assembly in 1945. Why? Because the federal states had to be constituted before the federation could had been constituted. E.g. When all the federal states were proclaimed by their own Antifascist Council, then the DFY have been proclaimed. |
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:[[User:Imbris|Imbris]] ([[User talk:Imbris|talk]]) 00:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 00:37, 11 July 2009
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Here we go again...
- I will not stand for your NDH legitimacy pushing. Take a gander at the Kingdom of Yugoslavia article. It is packed full of sources about that state, sources which have led to the User consensus on representing it as lasting either up to 1943, or even up to 1945. If you believe that the Banovina of Croatia, an administrative subdivision of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, somehow ceased to exist before the Kingdom of Yugoslavia itself, you are talking nonsense. Nonsense again motivated by your consistent POV-pushing in the direction of "legitimizing" the fascist Independent State of Croatia (NDH), by diminishing the representation of the legal Croatian WWII entities in every conceivable way.
- Was the Banovina of Croatia succeeded by the NDH when it "ceased to exist" in 1941? Hmmm?? I wonder if you'll answer that... because writing up DFY or FS Croatia as the successors in 1941 is an utter travesty (and you know it).
- I am supremely indifferent as to whether or not you consider the word "puppet" to be unnecessary by your own opinion. It is correct, it is sourced, and removing it is clear POV-vandalism aimed at destroying factual accuracy by not mentioning crucial facts about a mentioned state's status. If I wish to add more detail to this article, you have absolutely no right to remove it because you don't like it personally.
- It may be incorrect to write up the FS Croatia as the successor, and you may have a point there... While both have arguments, I've been considering switching the 1943 successor state to DF Yugoslavia myself. If you object to the current successor, this alteration is fine. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 22:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Discuss issues and not your believes
- (1) You are pushing POV as if the ISC never existed, you even tryed to remove it from the Template:History of Croatia. Its existence cannot be removed. It cannot be removed because you and me both would regard it obsolete and harmful towards Croatia, or because it was or wasn’t a state, but because it existed and history do not judge states, nations, etc. but regimes and individuals.
- (2) you and simmilar POVers continue your rude attempt to include in almost every article where the ISC is mentioned the phrase "puppet" (natturaly with a sentence or two about its creation, and such sentences). This is simply wrong, Banovina of Croatia has nothing to do with the ISC. Its history cannot be "tainted" with any description of what happened latter. We have the ISC article for that.
- (3) By using POV like ISC was not independent, a state, or Croatian is diminishing the responsability of that state in every conceivable way. The ISC had been a state created after the torture and the dictatorship of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, it was created with the help of the Axis, it was legaly created since Italy and Bulgaria were not States Parties of the Hague Conventions (and the Kingdom of Albania under the House of Savoy also) + there were no international law on how states gain independence or statehood, even today that chapter of international law is being written (Kosovo). It is a completely different story the regime (Ustashi) or the legal system (dictatorship with limited assembly — written with small caps)
- (4) Banovina of Croatia as an administrative and federal unit ceased to exist in 1941, this can be proven by reading some of notable historians (all of them are not belevolent towards the ISC), Croatian Peasent Party members that went with the Royal Govt in Exile tryed to protect the Cvetković-Maček Agreement for the re-creation of the Banovina of Croatia after the war — but without no assurances for that re-creation.
- (5) No concensus (you have not even provided a precise link) is for all times'. Your POV is clear to us all, you defend the theory of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia existing on paper but fail to provide on what basis did the Allies recognize the Royal Govt in Exile. Before Teheran the Soviet had not recognized the Royal Govt in Exile but only the Partisans. After that (in Nov 1943) a compromise was made and the other two major Allied Powers (US and UK) recognized Partisans while the USSR recognized a 50/50 policy on the after war influence over Yugoslavia. At that point in time the Allied decided to re-create Yugoslavia after the war as a equall joint venture partnership and not the Kingdom of Yugoslavia under the Karageorgevitch.
- (6) Banovina of Croatia was an administrative unit that outgrew into a federal unit in the new-deal of Cvetković-Maček. I do not consider the Banovina as a precedent for the ISC nor the precedent for the FSC. The FSC was before the 1946-01-31 Constitution of FPRY a state which would became a member of the Yugoslav federation, but was in that time virtually independent from Belgrade (due to poor phone, rail, etc. connections between Šibenik early 1945, and latter Split based headquoters).
- (7) It is POV and vandalism to insist on writing defamations in the article that is not connected with the history of the ISC. Like the article on Croatian decorations where some biased and "narrow-banded" users the POV of your choice "puppet, fascist, created by, etc." to push POV and spread propaganda in an article that has no real connection with the issue.
- (8) The Democratic Federal Yugoslavia could have been constituted when AVNOJ declared itself as a Temporary National Assembly in 1945. Why? Because the federal states had to be constituted before the federation could had been constituted. E.g. When all the federal states were proclaimed by their own Antifascist Council, then the DFY have been proclaimed.