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There are issues with this article. See the following links: http://www.mideastweb.org/pland.htm http://www.israelforum.com/board/archive/index.php/t-3061.html http://www.ajds.org.au/mendes.htm

I did some major editing of this page and added the DISPUTE NPOV to it as it was one-sided with no links

Arguments are more effective when they are not in Bold text that is why i removed boldface and corrected grammar and spelling.

I think that we should add a section (or separate article) about the EU's Plan D (that deals with its internal affairs, not with Arab-Israeli conflict)... Alinor 21:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

      Better to create a new article entitled Plan D. Queanbeyan 16:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by "execution" ? I am not sure to understand what you mean. Alithien 07:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Plan Daleth is Plan 4. It is an improvement on a previous plan, viz. Plan Gimel. The wikipedia article should have at least a little about the earlier plans for context. Pappe does something in his Ethnic Cleansing, but I do not propose to copy him at the moment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.144.3.239 (talk) 22:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I have a few problems with this article. I find that it puts too much emphasis on the New Historians like Pappé and Morris and neglects the official Israeli/pro-Israeli viewpoint. This article needs to be more balanced. One good example of Bias comes in the opening paragraph:

According to Yoav Gelber, Plan D was primarily defensive in nature. According to other sources it was a plan with the purpose of conquering as much of Palestine as possible and to expel as many Palestinians as possible.

This gives the impression that there was only 1 person arguing that Plan D was a defensive plan while "Other Sources" sounds like everyone else. In actuality this article is just promoting the Minority viewpoint as the Majority one. More work needs to be put into getting this article NPOV. Jason Schwartz (talk) 13:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will try to explain without mentioning any new historians In Major Knesset Debates, 1948-1981, by Netanel Lorch, Moshe Sneh interrupted a Ben Gurion Knesset speech about Menachem Begin's role in the Jerusalem insurrection to point out that 'you yourself cabled me not to interfere with the Irgun'. Ben Gurion and the Speaker warned Sneh not to try and threaten them with publication of that fact.

In any event, the Haganah and Irgun were conducting attacks inside the Corpus separatum no later than December of 1948, and the text of the plan itself mentions operations beyond "the borders of the Hebrew State" against military bases, towns, and villages in the provisional Arab state.

The Partition Plan authorized the establishment and defense of a Jewish State, but it also authorized the establishment and defense of an Arab State. The UN called for the provisional authorities in each state to take the necessary steps to implement the plan. According to the terms of the Partition Plan, during the transition period which started 29 November 1947, the provisional governments were supposed to raise and organize militias to prevent frontier clashes, not initiate them.

Article 3 of the Montevideo_Convention of 1933 explains the rights of a provisional state:

:::The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence, to provide for its conservation and prosperity, and consequently to organize itself as it sees fit, to legislate upon its interests, administer its services, and to define the jurisdiction and competence of its courts. The exercise of these rights has no other limitation than the exercise of the rights of other states according to international law.

In late April the Jewish Agency was claiming the Partition Plan had binding force, and it still included a neigboring Arab state:

:::With regard to the status of Assembly resolutions in international law it was admitted that any which touched on the national sovereignty of the members of the United Nations were mere recommendations and not binding. However the Palestine resolution was essentially different for it concerned the future of a territory subject to an international trust. Only the United Nations as a whole was competent to determine the future of the territory and it's decision therefore had a binding force. Moshe Shertok, April 27, 1948. UN Doc. A/C. 1/SR.A 127, para 7.

Plan Dalet indicates that the Jewish militias already had orders not to respect the borders of the Provisional Arab state. Unprovoked attacks launched against Arab towns and villages in another state to determine if they can offer resistance are a violation of Article 25 of the Hague Convention of 1907 and the UN Charter. The record of the People's Council and the Provisional Council of State, Volume 1, page 19 reveal that on the eve of independence the Prime Minister wanted the matter of borders left open for developments and neither accepted nor rejected what he described as the UN proposals.

President Wilson usually gets the credit for making sure that Palestine wasn't simply annexed to the British Empire. In fact, the general proscription of territorial conquest and the non-recognition of all acquisitions made by force were announced by the First International Conference of American States back in 1890. Many of these principles are cataloged in The Inter-American Reciprocal Assistance and Solidarity (Act of Chapultepec); March 6, 1945. After WWI the system of mandates was developed, the Kellogg-Briand pact was signed, and the League of Nations adopted the Stimson doctrine in 1931. In the post-WWII era those customs of international law were incorporated into the UN Charter Article 2(4) and were stipulated for inclusion in the constitutions of the new Jewish and Arab states, i.e. a democratic constitution "Accepting the obligation of the State to refrain in its international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purpose of the United Nations;" harlan (talk) 08:55, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The reader above is right in his concerns and the article only seems to have become worse since then. What talk wrote is completely unrelated. Mashkin (talk) 10:16, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If people aren't willing to correct the allege mistakes, perhaps the tag should be removed? CarolMooreDC (talk) 18:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mashkin must be forgetting that the Israeli Declaration of Independence contains a reference to the fact that the UN Partition Plan called upon the peoples of both states to take such steps as might have been necessary on their part to put the plan into effect:

On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable. see THE DECLARATION OF THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL May 14, 1948

The resolution cannot be interpreted to mean that the Israeli's were entitled to conduct unprovoked military attacks against Palestinian villages outside the Jewish State to see if there would be an armed response, because the resolution itself required that the Palestinians raise a militia to handle their own internal security. The Resolution stated that:

The period between the adoption by the General Assembly of its recommendation on the question of Palestine and the establishment of the independence of the Arab and Jewish States shall be a transitional period.

Under the heading B. STEPS PREPARATORY TO INDEPENDENCE the plan provided that each state could control its own frontiers and residence within its own borders. Freedom of transit was guaranteed, but it was subject to national security considerations. That would have precluded the transit of armed groups, such as the Haganah, Irgun, or Stern Gang, attempting to reinforce stockade and watchtower settlements in the Arab State. Here is what the Resolution said:

• The Provisional Council of Government of each State shall, within the shortest time possible, recruit an armed militia from the residents of that State, sufficient in number to maintain internal order and to prevent frontier clashes.

• During the transitional period no Jew shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Arab State, and no Arab shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Jewish State, except by special leave of the Commission.

• Preserving freedom of transit and visit for all residents and citizens of the other State in Palestine and the City of Jerusalem, subject to considerations of national security, provided that each State shall control residence within its borders. harlan (talk) 17:59, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Happened long after Plan Dalet was over. There has to be a good reason to mention it in the see also, otherwise it is an undue weight. Please state any reason to mention it before including it. Mashkin (talk) 20:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are removing mention of Lydda from several articles citing UNDUE, but this is a misunderstanding of UNDUE. It was an important event, and several historians link it to Plan Dalet. There is no reason within policy to remove it. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 22:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You will have to convince me that this is the case. Stop inserting the lydda exodus everywhere! Mashkin (talk) 05:52, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently says that Plan Dalet was put into effect from the start of April onwards. Can you supply a published source to support the claim that Lydda happened long after Plan Dalet was over, or that it had no connection to events?

Wikipedia should always reflect the published views about a particular subject. For example, Dr. David Tal teaches modern military and diplomatic history as a member of the Department of History and Security Studies Program at Tel Aviv University. He explains that the soldiers based their decisions regarding Lydda on the logic of Plan Dalet and an order from Aylon, dating from 6 July. He said that Ben Gurion's intervention was not required because deportations were involved, but rather because of their unusual extent. see War in Palestine, 1948: strategy and diplomacy, By David Tal, Routledge, 2004, ISBN 071465275X, page 312.harlan (talk) 19:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Plan Dalet was prior to the establishment of the state of Israel (prior to May 15th. Operation Danny was after the first truce, July 9-19, 1948. The Tal reference is hardly a justification to mention the exodus. If you want, you can mention what Tal says in the exodus article. Mashkin (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of what any of us think as Wikipedians, many historians write about what happened in Lydda as part of Plan Dalet. Plan Dalet was a plan regarding what to do in the event of invasion. Invasion then occurred. What happened in Lydda was in response to that invasion. The article says, "The stated goals included in addition to the reorganization, gaining control of the areas of the planned Jewish as well as areas of Jewish settlements outside its borders. The control would be attained by fortifying strongholds in the surrounding areas and roads, conquering Arab villages which are close to Jewish settlements and occupying British bases and police stations ..." That is exactly what happened in Lydda and elsewhere, as several historians point out. There's no reason for us not to mention that, with at least a See also. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 20:14, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What you say does not make sense: the plan affected the rest of the 1948 war, so there has to be a reason to single out this particular event, out of all the operations an events of the war. Why not point out to Operation Danny? Mashkin (talk) 20:25, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It makes perfect sense. Plan Dalet outlined an overall concept of operations and subsequent operations orders were issued to actually implement the details. The US military calls the later "Fragmentary Orders", or "Frag Orders". It wouldn't harm anything to list both articles in the See Also section. harlan (talk) 22:01, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is simply not true and not supported by the sources. Plan Dalet refers to a specific set of operations, not to a standing order or anything.

Again, the main point is not a particular operation, pretty far in the future. If you want to argue that somehow Plan Dalet was a model for the way conquered villages were handled later on in the war, try and make that case, supported by sources such as the Tal book. Mashkin (talk) 22:16, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One of my previous posts in this thread contains a link to an Israeli Military Historian who said the decision of the soldiers of Operation Dani command was in line with the logic of Plan Dalet and the 6 July order from Ayalon. Do you have a published source which says those weren't their governing directives? harlan (talk) 22:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He does not say that the orders were standing ones from Plan Dalet. Do not put words in his mouth. Read my suggestion. Mashkin (talk) 22:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The plan itself only speaks in generalities, and mentions other operational orders. For example, it says that a detailed list of counter attacks will be included in the operational targets of the Strategic Mobile Force (Palmach). Footnote number 8 on the Jewish Virtual Library Plan Dalet page explains that particular list wasn't part of Plan Dalet.

Dr. Tal did say the orders were standing ones. The last paragraph on page 88 refers to one of the articles of Plan Dalet. It made the decision of how to treat Palestinians that came under the control of the Haganah discretionary and left matters in the hands of the local Haganah commander, or later-on to the IDF commander. Tal mentions on page 100 that an updated version of Plan Dalet was published on the 11th of May. On page 296-297 he discusses the contents of Ayalon's letter. It supplemented the instructions in Plan Dalet and required special permission, or coordination with the Defense Minister before villages could be destroyed, or the inhabitants expelled in non-combat situations. On page 312 Tal is saying that the soldiers decisions regarding Lydda were in accordance with the logic of Plan Dalet and the order contained in Ayalon's letter.

Ilan Pappe discusses the evolution of the plan of general strategy from the Elimelech plan, Plan Gimel, and Plan Dalet on page 28 of the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. On page 151 he relates that the commander interpreted Plan Dalet as merely calling for the expulsion of Muslims, but not Druse or Christians from the village of Mghar during the operations in the lower Galilee. Those operations started on 29 June and were concluded in just ten days according to Pappe's account.

Please don't forget that I've asked for a published account that supports your position. harlan (talk) 04:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]