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Archive 1: Prior to episode redirect discussions Archive 2: Episode redirect discussions Archive 3: Episode redirect discussions: continued

Although there are continuous rumors about the show entering a new season and being transferred to ABC, I couldn't find a single reliable sources confirming any of these claims. So I'd say we wait for a proper announcement before starting a new section. LeaveSleaves (talk) 01:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fine with me. Sceptre ^(talk) 01:27, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now that it is official how should we go about writing it in? I think it is more important than a single sentence at the end. Cs302b (talk) 04:36, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's worth noting that:

1. WP:EPISODE is a guideline not a policy. WP:FICT is a proposed policy that isn't yet accepted.
2. More popular TV shows tend to have articles for each episode, even when there's not real third party sourcing (IMDB, TVGuide, etc. excluded)
3. Including these pages allows for more information.

Is there really a broad consensus to leave these episodes as redirects? Where do editors stand on this? Oren0 (talk) 00:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I Wish for the Scrubs episodes to stay and not be redirected. As stated by yourself above "WP:EPISODE is a guideline not a policy." I feel that the redirects and culling of articles is unneeded and pointless.

I would rather the redirects be undone.86.31.43.211 (talk) 15:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)Runciman[reply]

Same here. Scrubs is one of the only shows being targeted, what about every other television series with individual episodes articles. These episode articles are useful to me, and I'm sure they are to many others. 75.69.196.36 (talk) 16:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are very mistaken about Scrubs being the only show being targeted; it only seems this way because many others already have been merged a long time ago. WP:USEFUL is also not a good reason to keep or delete an article. A phonebook on wikipedia would be very useful, but that's not what wikipedia is for. Neither are plot-only articles. – sgeureka ^t•c 06:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where is your basis for this arguement that plot is not appropriate? Who decides that it isn't appropriate for plot not to be included in episode articles. Is there a clear cut "no" ruling for this, or is this a set of guidelines which a few members have decided to follow to the absolute letter anally.Runciman 81.109.247.173 (talk) 19:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree that the redirects should be undone as they serve no proper purpose. Is everyone clear about how to reverse such a redirect? See Help:Redirect#Changing a redirect. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • as i have already stated above "[edit] Wikipedia:Television episodes

3.1) Like many editing guidelines, Wikipedia:Television episodes is applied inconsistently. For an example, see List of South Park episodes and note that there is an article for each episode. An ideal response to such situations would be broader discussion of the guideline among editors with varying editing interest, with consensus achieved prior to widespread changes.

Passed 8 to 0 at 14:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC) " 86.27.66.246 (talk) 15:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was looking at the banner that includes notable episodes such as My First Day and My Musical etc. I was thinking the last episode My Dumb Luck since it is the episode Dr Kelso retires. Thanks (Eyehawk78 (talk) 14:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Did any admin come by and say all the links have to be taken away? Or was it just a small group of delentionist who said were goning to redirct the pages, no matter what the majority thinks, and no one has gone and just reverted the redirects? I think the episodes deserve there own articlus, but I don't care enghoth to revert te redircts. Also, the episode's are still there, just type in the episode you want to see. It will redirct you to this page, so just go to the top of the page where it says redirect from watever and click on that. Then just go to history and click on a previos version of it. Alaskan assassin (talk) 22:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I support this as well. Oren0 (talk) 23:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to repair the episode articles, feel free to apply your repairs to the last version of the article, and save the repaired result. That will undo the redirect at the same time. That way, you will actually be doing a service, by adding in the missing critical reviews, outside opinions, and the real-world information that is supposed to be the bulk of an article. Just undoing the redirect so that the existing overblown plot summaries are restored borders on vandalism.Kww (talk) 23:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For example, [1] would be the correct way of doing it. Reviews should exist for most if-not-all episodes, and so should commentaries. Sceptre ^(talk) 23:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kww, I'm glad you hold that opinion. I haven't been following this closely, but didn't the arb committee determine that constantly re-instituting the redirects when there wasn't consensus to do so was in fact the act of vandalism, and thusly punish someone for doing so? Where's the consensus to keep these as redirects? Why isn't the same logic applied to other TV shows whose episodes contain mostly plot summaries? Let's take for example, the latest episode of South Park or House (and no, WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS doesn't give you license to remove these pages without discussion). As a compromise, what about what they've done over at Grey's Anatomy, see for example Grey's Anatomy episodes (Season 4)? Basically the idea is to have the summaries, etc in one big article where each episode title redirects to a section of that article. I'm fine with adding commentaries and whatever but that doesn't mean an article should be effectively deleted without discussion because an editor doesn't want to add these things themselves. Oren0 (talk) 23:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the point that was brought up by someone is that it should look like a merge - plot summaries should be expanded a bit more, and the music (being an important part of the show) included. Sceptre ^(talk) 23:43, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oren, you may interpret that Arbcom decision that way. I read it more as We don't know what to do here, because it's a content dispute, so we will apply this simplest restriction that will get this out of our hair. It isn't working, and I expect a third round to hit Arbcom within a few months. FWIW, there have also been editors blocked for repetitively undoing redirects as well.

As for effectively deleted because an editor doesn't want to add these things themselves, no one can make an editor care. It's a core policy of Wikipedia that articles are based on independent, third-party sourcing, and an article that consists of a plot summary fails to do that. Any editor is free to get rid of such articles, and is under no obligation to repair them himself. If it were my choice, I wouldn't even have the lists of episodes around, but those are a compromise that seems necessary to make Wikipedia work at all.Kww (talk) 00:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's a reason that WP:AFD exists. With the exception of speedy deletion criteria, we require a process to delete pages. Editors are not, as you claim, free to "get rid of" any articles they don't believe meet WP:N or any other policy. For example, all of these articles contained cast lists, director/producer info, and featured songs. Those are all out-of-universe details. I don't see how the addition of a few production notes or reviews would make that any more the case anyway. I'd like more input on this, but if more editors don't side with you re:keeping these as redirects I intend to undo that in a few days. Oren0 (talk) 01:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Redirection is not deletion. All the information of previous versions is there, available for an interested editor, such as yourself, to repair the articles. There's no reason at all to bring them back in the shape they are in. I would strongly advise you not to unredirect them without making the necessary repairs first.Kww (talk) 01:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Redirection is effectively deletion. Merge is a very common outcome of AfDs. Oren0 (talk) 02:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

AfD is to get the articles and their page history deleted, needing help from an admin. The result merge is just a version of keep, because nothing gets deleted (in the page history sense). If someone just wants to merge or redirect, that can be done as part of the normal editorial process via a merge proposal, and you don't need an admin. Also saves the trouble of deletion review. Please take the advice of Sceptre and Kww to heart to not get into trouble yourself. – sgeureka ^t•c 08:11, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• So far as I know, no-one has mandated that these redirects should exist - they are just the action of individual editors who have been acting unilaterally. I support the reversion of these redirects. Colonel Warden (talk) 14:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Although i would like the episode articles to be un-redirected, do not just undo the redirects. To do so would be in violation of the arbcom ruling, just as much as the re-direction was. If the articles are to be restored, they do need some more real-world balance. Not masses, just a reception section would do as a start. See My Own Worst Enemy, which the so-called "deletionists" allowed to stay simply because it had the beginings of a reception section. I do intend to start doing this, but for now the real world has me good, it may be a few weeks--Jac16888 (talk) 16:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't see how you read the arbcom ruling that way. The ruling said that consensus should be reached before making widespread changes (I'd say that taking 100 articles and making them redirects is a fairly widespread change). I see no evidence of any consensus here to have these pages as redirects. Quite the contrary, in fact, there seems to be a consensus among most editors here to undo them. Oren0 (talk) 18:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

you make a good point, at the moment there is only one person actively maintaining the redirects, but my point was that the arbcom ruling did not go either way over the fate of episode/character articles, just the methods used, so while the mass redirection, was (in my opinion at least)a violation, simply reverting them back to how they were would be too, saying otherwise would make me a hypocrite. However, if we're ever going to actually get the episode articles to stick, and not just get blindly redirected again further down the line, we need to make some improvements, that, is the consensus of the community at large--Jac16888 (talk) 18:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that you can rest assured that more than one editor is monitoring this situation, and will help maintain the redirects if need be.Kww (talk) 19:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• • so your saying that you are going to inflame the situation if needs be? i feel the redirects should be removed as i have been doing for the last few days. As well as this i will also be reporting you and the other editors to arbcom as your behaviour is not unlike User TTN's over christmas. You and your fellow editors are portraying a bullying swagger to which it seems that your opinions are upmost law. Runciman 86.24.147.125 (talk) 16:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • By your undoing the redirects (are you?), you would in fact be the one inflaming the situation. FYI, your comments are also coming close to personal attacks. Please comment on the content, not the editors. – sgeureka^t•c 17:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • • I undid the redirect on my mentor and was contributing towards it when it was redirected, i havent been doing them all. By all means i wasnt being personal, it jsut seems that 3-4 editors are discouragind people from adding; this is because its difficult to get into the episodes as they have all been redirected. 86.0.109.56 (talk) 20:13, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • By contributing, do you mean this? Kww (talk) 20:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Yes but i was also in the middle of getting reception information and other real world references when it was redirected. Not easy to put everything together in one day when you teach full time.82.2.95.124 (talk) 21:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I've waited a night so that I can stay polite. That contribution is exactly the kind of contribution that lead to the articles being redirected in the first place. It has three problems:
              1. It's completely trivial.
              2. It's unsourced, and, while verifiable, the fact that it is unsourced reinforces it's triviality: no independent third party thought it was important enough to write about.
              3. It walks right up the edge of original research, and may cross it. This is not an obvious observation that is easily verified by watching the episode: you need to watch 70 hours of video to come to this conclusion. You weren't even certain it was right, which is why you put the word "may" in the description.

What the articles need are facts reported by independent third-parties, not unsourced trivia.Kww (talk) 04:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• • • • • • • • As i said before i was midway through establishing these things when the article was redirected and non-helpful comments like that make me wonder why i even bother with wiki. To be honest have your way redirect. I#m trying to improve things but your making it awfully hard. I think that this may be negative towards first time contributers such as myself. 86.26.101.31 (talk) 23:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
                • Either you can establish notability, in which case the article can certainly be recreated, or you don't, in which case there is nothing wrong a redirect. Please stop playing the victim. – sgeureka ^t•c 23:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
                • I don't see why you found my comments non-helpful. How can a newcomer learn from his mistakes if no one points them out?Kww (talk) 23:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • My impression is that Eusebius is the one most at risk in that he has been repeating TTN-style unilateral redirects and seems to have not the slightest intention of compromise or reacting to good faith attempts to improve the articles. The editors here have little alternative but to respond in kind otherwise they will be faced with a fait accompli. Myself, I bought a book at lunchtime today today to provide me with another source and will continue to ferret out more sources. The Xena article that I saved at AFD from Collectonian is now in good shape and shows what can be done if one just works at it. Edit-warring over redirects is disruptive in that it gets in the way of improving the content. Please desist. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

        Speaking as the suddenly transformed orthodox Caesarean (look up Colonel Warden, way up ... no higher), I feel confident that this sentiment is borne out of ignorance of my contribution record, or TTN's perhaps, as well as the idiosyncratic views this editor specifically holds regarding fiction, and the tinge of malice and acrimony he bears me personally. I have engaged in extensive discussion on this page and have reacted in good faith to the responses that have been forthcoming. I doubt I am at risk here, since I have extensively and repeatedly contributed to the relevant discussions across many fora; I think there is general agreement that articles that consist mostly of plot are inappropriate for Wikipedia. I know you disagree and feel that all content should be permitted as long as it is not WP:OR and verifiable, but then some people think the earth is flat too. Eusebeus (talk) 19:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• We certainly read Colonel Warden's comments differently, Eusebeus. I saw a man that had purchased something he could use to improve articles, and a request to stop edit warring over redirects. What did you read him as saying?Kww (talk) 20:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I was reading the comments who characterised my actions as not having the slightest intention of compromise or reacting to good faith attempts to improve the articles. That's pot and kettle time from someone who rejects in toto any argument based on WP:FICT or WP:NOT#PLOT. The fact is that certain episodes may well merit individual articles and I've no truck with anyone who wishes to improve any of them such that they demonstrate their real-world impact and aspire to more than plot summaries and trivia sections. But I don't see much evidence of anything being done to make a compelling case that this attains to even a significant minority of Scrubs episodes. I might finally note that as I redirect these, I bring over the featured music, guest actors and other such info into the LOE; insinuations that I am mindlessly redirecting as deletion by other means is incorrect and self-serving. Eusebeus (talk) 21:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Moving content from one article to another and redirecting without consensus is disruption. If your objective is to reduce the amount of plot coverage then this could more easily be done in situ, reducing articles to stubs. Redirection just seems to be a tactic designed to obfuscate the material and so confuse new/inexperienced editors. This is contrary to Newcomers must always be welcomed et seq. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I have no intention of inflaming any situation. Right now, the vast majority of Scrubs episodes are redirects. That's fine with me. If people undertake to write good articles, using as much of the old article as they want to, and place those good articles in place of the redirects, that's fine with me, and I won't do anything to stop it. Might even help scrub them for typos and such. If people recreate the existing bad articles without performing any meaningful repair effort, I'll restore the redirect. Recreating an article that you know is unacceptable doesn't help anyone accomplish anything.Kww (talk) 17:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep the redirects unless notability is established. -- Magioladitis (talk) 13:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the plot synopsis, it says: Elliot demands single-sex change rooms from Dr. Kelso as it's becoming increasingly embarrassing changing in the traditional mixed-sex rooms. I just watched 2x13. The one where Turk is sitting on his bed holding a red pillow at the start? Either my episodes have a numbering problem, or these do, or there's a vandal. Or I'm wrong. That would be fine too. Miyoka (talk) 23:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My Philosophy does contain the storyline given in the article along with Turk's efforts to propose Carla. It's the following episode which starts with the scene you mentioned. LeaveSleaves (talk) 00:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In this episode Carla's brother Marco makes an appearance. The actor is Freddy Rodriguez. He has done some notable work. Someone should edit him into the episode article and the same for any other episodes he appears in. --ShadowCrew (talk) 22:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Today when I came over to wikipedia to find out about a Scrubs episode I had watched I was disappointed to find the article deleted, so I read some of this discussion and had a few questions/points:

• The suggestion to put TV episode articles on wikia has the problem that it is a different site. On of my favourite things to do on wikipedia is to start reading one article and by clicking the hyperlinks end up reading about a totally different topic. There will be much less interlinking on a separate site.
• Is the desire to delete articles based on conserving server resources or wanting to only include deserving articles? If the former, I would be interested to know what proportion of storage is spent on article content, and how much on all these pointless discussions about wikipedia rules ;-). If the latter doesn't the fact that wikipedia is an online encyclopedia with hyperlinks mean if you don't want to read such content it doesn't get in the way as it would with a book?
• I agree with those who say the redirects make it hard to find/improve the deleted articles, thanks to Jac16888 for saying how to find them!
• Now that the list of episodes page includes music I think it is too long. How could we solve this problem? Articles for each episode detailing amongst other things the music!

Uberdude85 (talk) 22:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you far taking the time to read through the debate, and for making an informed comment. Server space is not the issue. The community policy at [WP:NOT]] is what is germane here. As it stands, the consensus is fairly clear that episodes which can aspire to little more than in-universe detail do not merit individual articles on Wikipedia. That is the case for the vast majority of Scrubs episodes - hence the redirects. That said, no-one wishes to stand in the way of any editor who seeks to make a good faith effort to improve any article, and if you have an episode in mind and are having a hard time locating it, I would suggest simply asking for assistance here and someone can direct you to the older version. As for the list becoming too long, I am not sure I agree, but should that be deemed the case, then individual season lists can be spun out in order to redress questions of length. Overall, the brief synoptic content here is better suited to the encyclopedic goals of the project as they are currently iterated per longstanding consensus policy. Eusebeus (talk) 22:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When Janitor is making up articles for his newsletter, Cox asks why Janitor is going after him. Janitor says its because Cox called him stupid, and that he's been called alot of things, including "Josh" in the short list of three, also stating that "each of which is true in its own right". So the line about Janitor's name not being revealed is wrong, it was, his name is Josh. ~~CuCullin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.0.106.172 (talk) 00:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence to support that he was in fact saying that his name was Josh. He only said that he was called Josh... or how about J.O.S.H. (Janitor of Sacred Heart) - possibly just another way the Scrubs writers are having fun with its hardcore fan base. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 00:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And the Janitor is an habitual liar. Sceptre ^(talk) 12:14, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Justsomerandomguy32... How on earth did you come up with that? Its good if its true.. Cs302b (talk) 04:38, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Both Bill Lawrence and Neil Flynn have said that the Janitor's name will be revealed in the series finale, if at all.ThomasSixten (talk) 03:04, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[2]— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alaskan assassin (talk • contribs) 20:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's your point?? LeaveSleaves (talk) 20:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NBC aired an episode of season 7 out of order. My Princess, continuity-wise, belongs between My Manhood and My Dumb Luck, regardless of NBC's dumbass decisions to air them out of order. —Preceding ThomasSixten comment added by 128.173.235.230 (talk) 00:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is the list of episodes that are arranged as they were aired, not as they were intended to be aired. The production code indicates the actual intended order. You can see another example of such a situation in season 6 for Episode 11, My Night to Remember, which was aired out of order. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 01:09, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The episode MY Princess states that its not in continuity? The episode was just played out of order. Theres nothing wrong about it that I can see. Thefro552 (talk) 01:13, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kelso was still chief of medicine in My Princess, despite retiring two episodes before--Jac16888 (talk) 01:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The episodes were out of order because NBC wanted to make what they were calling "the last episode of Scrubs" to be something that would stand out. They did so because they had lost Scrubs to ABC after shafting Bill Lawrence and Scrubs by not giving them the chance to end Scrubs properly. It is likely that the episodes will air in production sequence when played in syndication.ThomasSixten (talk) 03:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article is presently 122kb in size. Looking forward to information from another season with songs details and all that, I have no doubt that the article would reach somewhere near 140kb by the end of the season. I think we should consider splitting article into separate season articles. This would remove majority of information regarding episode description, credits, song information etc. into individual season article, thus reducing the load on a single article. I have created a rough skeleton of upcoming season eight which can be seen here. If such a split can be agreed upon, I propose we finish the split before the premiere of upcoming season. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 19:02, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• That's probably a good idea eventually. I would suggest two articles, covering the first four and second four seasons. However, I don't think the split needs to take place urgently and we can proceed woth adding season 8 to this page for now. Eusebeus (talk) 01:03, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• I like the idea, having different pages for different seasons, but I also agree with Eusebeus, its not urgent to have it done for the upcoming season.Tej68 (talk) 02:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• As much as I personally love the ease of access to songs played in each episode, perhaps we should [re]move that information from the page, and just keep them to the Episode's article (if applicable since not all episodes have pages yet) or, else, create a separate page for songs in each episode. In addition to that, however, considering there's not much confirmation for anything after this coming season, maybe it's not even necessary if this is going to be the last one. But I'm in concurrence with the above, I think it's fine for now until we know more about the future. When it comes to it though, doing something like what List of ER episodes looks like could work out wonderfully. --Snojoe (talk) 04:52, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  "not all episodes have pages yet." - And round and round we go. Used to be they all had pages (literally every single episode), then they were merged here per WP:FICT (a decision I think was wrong personally). Have a look at the revision history of any episode title, like this or this before they became redirects or check the archives. Now this page is too crowded so you want to move things back to those pages. Sounds like a vicious cycle. Personally, I wouldn't mind if someone recreated all of them and moved the music and some other extraneous info to the individual episode articles, thus removing the need for a split. But that might be a tad controversial around here. Oren0 (talk) 08:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]