Manual of Style

This page falls within the scope of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Wikipedia's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Wikipedia policies of Wikipedia's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

Archives

Archive 1 Jul 2006 and earlier Archive 2 Archive 3 September 2006 - November 2007

The box style of link is a bad idea, and should not be encouraged here. First, the idea of using a box is apparently promotional, and serves to encourage open wikis over other sites. I see no reason why (for example) {{Databank}} should be any different than {{Wookieepedia box}}. Secondly, the primary use (and the name of CSS style it uses) is for sister sites run by the Wikimedia Foundation. Using this box gives the false impression that external wikis are approved by or affiliated with Wikimedia. Superficial changes such as color don't make it clear that this is an external link. There is the idea that Wikipedia should encourage free content, and it does that by example, not with something resembling a banner ad. --Phirazo 06:07, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I recognize that you dislike them, but they've survived mutliple attempts to delete them, which does indicate an acceptance for their existence. And they seem on track to survive another one. Phil Sandifer (talk) 13:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IMDb links are often in infoboxes, as well as other such links. Usefulness and the nature of a link does have a factor in how we display links. Something to think about. -- Ned Scott 17:26, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's also many ways we can work with this kind of box. For example, this box that I made just now in my sandbox shows how a single box could be used for all wikis (that pass WP:EL) could be used, taking up less space when there is more than one. It also helps to imply that the box is simply noting both wikis that are not related to Wikipedia, as well as making them seem less "important" and more a matter of organization. -- Ned Scott 17:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that a single box is a superior solution, especially with regard to standardizing the look & feel, and it also makes clear that there are third-party wikis, not affiliated with Wikipedia or the WMF. Your example is a good improvement, especially if we can add the right code to allow everything to be done in the call to the template, e.g. {{Third party wiki|Wookiepedia|Tacopedia|Foopedia}}.

Even with the improved presentation & differentiation, I still worry that we're promoting (for lack of a better term) those third-party wikis over other off-Wikipedia content providers. Fly United, the official airline of WIkipedia and all that. Star Trek is a good example: The Trek fanbase have been establishing useful online repositories of information for decades, on LISTSERVs, Usenet, the Web, etc. We like wikis. Is that enoug to elevate their status over other resources? --SSBohio 19:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand that. Though, if a link is useful, then I don't have much of a problem with giving it its own box. We kind of do that with IMDb links in some infoboxes. -- Ned Scott 03:55, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking strictly at the issue of consensus here. To be frank, I'm not particularly exercised about whether the Memory Alpha links look one way or another, although the box format does have more of an advertising feel to it, which is (to me) a problem.

I don't think that the fact that some or all of these boxes have survived TfD necessarily demonstrates consensus to add text to this guideline, especially considering that the addition has been reverted by multiple editors. I think the issue needs to be resolved here first. Would an RFC or third opinion be useful? --SSBohio 17:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Given acceptance for their use, commenting on their acceptability for use in the relevant guideline seems to me straightforward. Phil Sandifer (talk) 18:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can see where you would hold that view, based on the argument you've advanced. Can you see where I hold a different view, based on the argument I've advanced? --SSBohio 19:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but your capacity and right to hold a view does not inherently lend it any status as a correct or useful view. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, that's an assertion equally applicable to your view as mine. Whether you render my view invalid^[1] or merely incorrect and useless, your holding a different view doesn't render it any more valid, correct, or useful than mine. Arguing from specific TfD results to a general policy is no more logical a construction than any other attempt to argue a generality from a specific case, or to argue a precedent from a consequence. My only assertion is that you haven't demonstrated consensus.

Some of your peers disagree that there is a consensus to make this change. Inherent in that is a demonstration of lack of consensus. Multiple editors have reverted your addition to this guideline and you, as the editor wishing to make an addition, have the burden of establishing consensus to change the text of this guideline, not only that other stuff exists. --SSBohio 16:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The templates exist. They are in measurable use. They have survived TfD. This is evidence that they are a part of our external link system. Barring any actual evidence that this section does not accurately describe an aspect of external linking on Wikipedia there is no reason to remove it. Policy and guideline pages are descriptive. As it stands, these are existent. You cannot get them out of the policy page without actually creating a demonstrable lack of consensus for their use. Given their repeated survival at TfD, this does not seem to be present. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:59, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So far, all we have is your statement, which isn't, in itself evidence of anything other than your belief. It serves no useful purpose to overlook your attempts to insert this text into the guideline and only describe our attempts to restore the status quo. It's the inserting editor's responsibility to establish consensus for the change they wish to make if it is disputed. Arguing (without evidence) that this or that example survived TfD does not establish existing policy. It only establishes that those particular templates had no consensus to delete according to the standards of TfD. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You assert the claim that the way you want to change this page has consensus. Your argument, however, is that the templates have consensus to stay. Even if you're right about the templates, you haven't shown that there is consensus to change the text of this page. --SSBohio 18:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but it sure sounds like you're accusing me of lying about the TfDs. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. Looking at my comment in light of what you just wrote, I can see where it looks like I could have been implying that you were lying. I'm sorry; Nothing could be further from the truth. I believe you, but, without knowing what TfDs you're citing as evidence, I can't make my own evaluation of your statement that there's consensus for this change to the guideline. --SSBohio 20:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do not have the links handy - presumably they're linked on the talk pages of the relevant templates - if not you'd have to dig through TfD history for them as they were apparently archived poorly. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. Until you have the links handy, could you give me some examples of templates to check? I gather that FreeContentMeta is one? I'm not above doing a little digging to get at the evidence. Let me know which ones to look at and I'll check them out. --SSBohio 20:42, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 May 31, Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 May 26, Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 May 29 are the three I can quickly find. A similar TfD happened at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 July 16 in which a couple of FCM templates were nominated in with some other templates - I removed the two FCM templates for reasons explained in that TfD, and this did not meet with any protest. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

<scratches head> On this page, I can't find the MOS guidance/convention which states that links of key importance should be bold, even though the page uses that convention itself, nota bene!

I grepped the talk page archives for the word "bold", but couldn't find a relevant discussion on inclusion or removal. Where did that go, and/or what happened and/or where should I be looking?

--Kim Bruning (talk) 20:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What sort of key importance? Some links are bold due to their being menu labels, but I can't think of other examples right now. –Pomte 15:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For instance, in List of Law & Order characters, active cast members are bolded to differentiate from former. This usage is also sometimes used in sports lists to show winners of matches. MKoltnow 16:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It has been stated that this is the best practice. But it doesn't help with fact checking like for links in citations. If the external page goes down, then Internet Archive can be used to find the most recent version regardless of what the date retrieved is. –Pomte 02:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear fellow editors—The idea is to centralise debate and consensus-gathering when there are inconsistencies between the pages.

The most straightforward way is to have MOS-central prevail, and to involve expertise from sub-pages on the talk page there, rather than the fragmentary discourse—more usually the absence of discourse and the continuing inconsistency—that characterises WP's style guideline resources now. If consensus has it that MOS-central should bend to the wording of a sub-page, so be it. But until that occurs in each case that might occasionally arise, there needs to be certainty for WPians, especially in the Featured Article process, where nominators and reviewers are sometimes confused by a left- and right-hand that say different things.

Of course, no one owns MOS-central, and we're all just as important to its running as other editors. I ask for your support and feedback HERE. Tony (talk) 12:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting comments for a new style proposal for wikis listed in the EL section is at Wikipedia:Linking to other wikis. Everyone is encouraged to leave feedback. -- Ned Scott 05:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Should abbreviated units be linked or not within an infobox. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 08:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there anything in the MoS or in WP in regards to a wikiling that directs readers to another section of the same article? Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 05:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm curious as well. I find it annoying -- what do you think of it? CRGreathouse (t | c) 04:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I remember hearing that the MoS said not to, but I couldn't find it when I read through the MoS. I think we ought to make a clear case that it should not be allowed. Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 06:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any examples you have in mind? I'm not sure when someone would want to do that, but it's hard for me to imagine it really being an issue. -- Ned Scott 06:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The issue where someone said the MoS was against wikilinking within an article was a while ago; I've forgotten what the article or problem was. Recently, in the SFO article, someone made a wikilink to the next subsection, arguing it was necessary or readers could get lost, but people can easily scroll if they feel the need to, and there is a table of contents at the top of the page. It also then reaches the point where if people start feeling that wikilinking to locations within the same article is necessary, then it'll be an overabundance of links; a lot of people already over-wikilink as is. Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 17:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have taken the liberty of moving this topic to Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Intuitiveness_and_year_by_subject_pages because of the cross-over with discussions there and that is the more active of the two pages. I hope nobody minds. Lightmouse (talk) 23:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was working on the Ian Stewart article and was surprised by the external link regarding his work on coupled oscillators in the Biography section. I had a feeling that external links were usually inserted as references, and only links within Wikipedia are inserted as inline text (perhaps because the few articles I have been focusing on seem to do that). Is that the convention? If not, are external links distinguished from internal ones in any recommended way, or is it standard style not to distinguish them? DiderotWasRight (talk) 22:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, that's what that little icon I didn't notice after the link is for, right? Duh. DiderotWasRight (talk) 22:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible to add a bracket ] inside a link name (so it does not close the link)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knakts (talk • contribs) 17:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen any comments about which is preferred for a "See also" section—using a piped link to hide the Category namespace name, or not:

• Category:Lists of people
• Lists of people

I think the second item looks cleaner, but it hides the fact that the link is to a category and not a list article as one might think. Is there any MOS guideline for this situation? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:00, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

user:Beeblbrox has proposed to get rid of all red links as a matter of policy. That is directly contrary to Wikipedia policies and the whole spirit of Wikipedia. I was quite shocked to find someone unaware of this. Getting rid of good red links is destructive. Please help this user: user talk:Beeblbrox. Michael Hardy (talk) 04:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well we should modify the policy.. red links means that the article may need to be created. I believe the reason for that specific term is linked is to be created.. although I never write anything on an article with a link to a non-existing article. --staka (T ・C) 00:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Michael Hardy as to the destructiveness of proposals to remove redlinks as policy. It's not even like they are a neutral; red links are an overwhelming net gain for Wikipedia. Ford MF (talk) 13:46, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do language icons such as {{en icon}} have to be before the link or after? The section does not talk about where it needs to be placed. --staka (T ・C) 00:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Normal usage seems to put the language icon at the end of the rendered citation although Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(links)#Non-English-language_sites doesn't make it clear. Some editors, myself included, have used the language icons with inline translations as well, although they don't render particularly well.

e.g. "Piaf's rendition of la Vie en Rose (Template:Fr icon: Life in Pink) still is played regularly on the radio."

I'd appreciate a no-bracket option for this kind of usage.LeadSongDog (talk) 22:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What level of wikifying is expected for a great article. If an article contains a word that is very rare would you expect the article to wikify the word so the reader could understand what it means? If further more the rare word had no article on wikipedia to explain it, what should happen? Should it be redlinked, left without being wikified or something else? SunCreator (talk) 16:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the word is specifically relevant to the topic of the article, then a link makes sense. If the word is simply an ordinary English word that happens to be uncommon, Wikipedia is not a dictionary and diluting links is unhelpful. Note that some "rare" words may not be so rare to many speakers; and that other "common" words might be considered "rare" by a non-native speaker, or by people who don't read books. Also, it is possible that the rare word may be inappropriate in the article, a more common word might be better; "portmanteau" is a good example: somehow this word is inserted all over Wikipedia--and then linked because few readers know what it means, or because whoever added it is goofing off--when the word is not even used accurately and a word like "combination" or "blend" suits the purpose more understandably and accurately: the rare word was in fact bad. —Centrx→talk • 03:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is possible to link to wiktionary when you want to point people to the definition of a word like portmanteau. The link should show up a slightly lighter blue. Carcharoth (talk) 23:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Should text within articles have links to non-articles? An example of what I'm asking about is in Hiroshima#Transportation: "... two are still in operation as of July 2006 ([[:Image:Hiroden-hibakudensya PICT2443.JPG|Hiroden Numbers 651 and 652]])." In the article, the text "Hiroden Numbers 651 and 652" is a link to the image file. The brief discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (links)#Links to categories shows an example of a link to a category, not in running text but in a "See also" section. Does anyone have opinions about when and where links from articles to non-articles are appropriate, or what sorts or purposes are good or bad? Fg2 (talk) 02:37, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seems fine to me as an alternative to putting too many images on the article, while still directing a specific image to a specific portion of the article (rather than a Commons gallery, etc). -- Ned Scott 04:50, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's the rationale behind thoroughly WL every date that appears in an article? I understand why, for example, it would be good to WL Einstein's birth and death dates but I don't know what purpose is served by WL every date that appears in the article about him. The "what links here" feature is almost unusable with indiscriminate linking of dates, more helpful WL become lost articles where every word is a wl, and I find it difficult to believe anybody ever really clicks them. I don't go to an article on Einstein and find myself suddenly curious what events happened to fall on the same day that he visited New York for the first time or his divorce papers became final. We're even wl "retrieved on" dates for external links in article references. This obsessive date linking mystifies me. Professor marginalia (talk) 20:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose is unrelated to linking. It's a formatting tool. Linking the day-date and the year results in displaying the complete date in the format the user sets in his or her preferences. This should probably be a template or some other formatting device, but it's now in a couple of million articles along with other relics of the earliest days of Wikipedia such as the words "move" ("to rename an article") and "stub." Fg2 (talk) 22:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Now I see. It would be better to use a template, and maybe a bot could do the monster clean-up job.Professor marginalia (talk) 15:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for raising this issue, Professor. Full date autoformatting is a different concept from that of linking, but unfortunately was set up technically to use the same coding and display as linking. This is one reason that autoformatting is no longer encouraged (see MOSNUM). The other major reason (apart from a list of other technical inadequacies) is that autoformatting doesn't work for the vast majority of readers, who are not registered users and have not chosen a date "preference". There is an increasing feeling that the differences between the two major formats (and the apparently disliked ISO format) is about as trivial as the US/UK spelling differences that we've learned to manage and accept on WP. The within-article rule applies for date formats, whether autoformatted or not. Note that almost all readers see inconsistencies that are hidden from WP editors by the autoformatting mechanism. TONY (talk) 02:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if this is already part of the policy or a guideline, but I'd like to suggest that, while normally only the first occurance of a term should be wikilinked, sometimes it makes a great deal of sense to subsequently link; and there are a couple of situations where it is common.

One is when you have, for example, a film or TV show. The header might say "Title is a 1928 movie starring Actor and Actress", with the two names wikilinked. However, it seems obvious that it is ideal to also wikilink the actors names in a listing or table of cast, or a subsection on cast, so that links to all of the cast are together. Similarly, an article about a music album might mention specific songs in the lead or history section, but should still include a link in the track list/table. Basically, I would say that it should be noted that even when a term is linked in an article, it should be re-linked when included in a list or table within the article. I give media examples, but it can occur anywhere (a list of cabinet ministers in an article about a state leader, for example).

The second example that I see when there is an article that, in a way, discusses more than one subject (for example, if there is a TV series article that covers more than one revival or version of the show, it makes sense to re-link in the section on the second version/revival, as people may start reading about that section and not realize that the people involved have already been mentioned as associated with the first version (or might start reading only about the 2nd version). TheHYPO (talk) 04:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What you're proposing is, as far as I know, pretty much the common practice already, although I'm not sure whether the change should be made to MOSLINK, WP:CONTEXT, or both.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 20:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's already covered in WP:Manual of Style (links)#Overlinking and underlinking: "this is usually on the first occurrence of the term, although the subsequent linking of an important item distant from its previous occurrence in an article may occasionally be appropriate in a table or in a subsection to which readers may jump directly, either within the article or via a section-link from another article."
There used to be a more encouraging and explicit (albeit awkward) guideline: "Generally, where it is likely that a reader may wish to read about another topic, the reader should not have to hunt for a link elsewhere in the page."
Amalthea^Talk 10:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen a MOS guideline that either permits or discourages interwiki links. I'm specifically thinking of instances where the native language name of something is linked to the article in that language's wiki. For example:

... Munich (München) ...

Should there be a note about interwiki links like that from the main article prose or table text? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 04:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IMO, the German-WP article should be arrived at through the Eng.WP link (via the side-bar). Tony (talk) 10:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Tony. I can't think of an instance where a language interwiki link is appropriate in the prose of an article. In particular I'd find linking the native München in the LEAD of Munich to be very unexpected, and unnecessary. --Amalthea^Talk 10:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't it be great to have a Interwiki link go green (or another color other than red) when, in the language being written, there is no link in this language available, but in another there is? The link would then go to a page listing all the various languages available for this topic. eg. I'm writing about New York and I list a musician who worked there for a while but who spent most of his life in Mexico. As he spent most of his working life in Mexico there is only an article on him in spanish, which, unfortunately doesn't show up as a blue link when I'm writing in English. I've tried adding normal links but they get removed by others higher up. In some of my articles this has happened several times. German musicians, because they emigrated to the USA, sometimes only have biographies in English. How do I get this information on a German page? --Ebrownless (talk) 23:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I sometimes stick interwiki links into disambiguation pages where one of the disambiguating terms (usually a person) is a redlink here, but there is an article on another Wikipedia. Sort of a lazy placeholder pointing people to an article that could be translated at some future point, and to flag the other article up for those who (a) write the stub and will want to know about this in order to add it to their stub, and (b) think that no article is necessary for the person in question (the link showing that an article exists on another Wikipedia language version usually makes people stop and think again). Carcharoth (talk) 23:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of which, is linking to wiktionary acceptable? Something like portmanteau. I'm guessing that like the links to commons and wikisource, links to wiktionary should mostly be through "sister project" templates at the bottom (or top) of an article, not in the main text. Is that right, or can you link to wiktionary in the main text of an article to help explain terms? Carcharoth (talk) 23:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not common practice, but I can see where it would be useful. If you think it would improve the article, then do it. WP:IAR.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 04:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the manual of style, I found this:

Keeping possessive apostrophes inside the link, where possible, makes for more readable text and source, though either form is acceptable for possessive forms of links such as George Washington's or George Washington's.

We have discussed such things before (here and here), but I disagree with this solution. It makes things inconsistent. As before, I argue that allowing links such as "William Shatner's toupee" causes a visual ambiguity: are we talking about a person named William Shatner, or a place, like a café, called William Shatner's? Of course, the context resolves the ambiguity, but my eyes still parse "William Shatner's" such that the 's is a part of the noun, which is jarring. I know that before it has been argued that it's similar to how links like [[banana]]s shows up the same as [[bananas]], but in that case the effect of leaving the S outside the link would be more jarring since there is no punctuation to break it up, so I don't think the analogy really works. Considering that, on top of all this, my way is also the easiest one to write in code, I think we should just stick to this rule. If consensus disagrees, we should probably stick to the other rule, because otherwise whether or not the 's appears in the link is significant or not becomes essentially random, which I think is silly.

Also, I remember at one point Wikipedia's software enforced the other rule, such that [[William Shatner]]'s still put the 's inside the link, but this was quickly undone. What was the deal with that? Was there a software problem, or did somebody think it was just a bad idea? - furrykef (Talk at me) 16:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer the first option. "George Washington's" makes it clear that you are going to the article on George Washington. George Washington's could be a pub. As Furrykef says, the context should make it clear, but it shouldn't really need to. We should be fitting wikicode around the writing, not the other way around.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 17:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If nobody's going to contest this, then I think I should put it in the MoS. I know it's better to establish consensus first, but if nobody's going to debate the matter, nothing's going to get done otherwise. - furrykef (Talk at me) 08:38, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've commented out some text in the "Overlinking" section regarding "commonly known" nations, etc:

"The names of geographical locations that are likely to be well-known to English-speakers should generally not be linked where, in the context, they are unlikely to be confused with other locations of the same name, and the linked article would not specifically add to readers' understanding of the topic at hand—this includes the names of: countries such as United States, UK, Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, India, Russia, China, Germany, France and Italy, and the associated demonyms; major cities such as New York City, London, Moscow and Paris; the continents and the major oceans and seas; commonly known languages, particularly English; large-scale historical events (World War II); familiar astronomical objects (Earth, Moon, Sun); as well as common "dictionary" words."

It was added back in July, and is being used as justification for the removal of said links, but I see no discussion of it here. I've also seen some opposition to the removal of these links from articles, so... thoughts? --Ckatz^chat_spy 23:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That section is a direct copy from WP:CONTEXT, which is the controlling guideline on things like that. If you think it should be changed, take it up at the talk page there.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 05:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I'm glad you pointed that one out. From what I can tell, the text was first added here on July 4th. 21 hours after that post, it was added to WP:CONTEXT with the description "Pasting in bit from MOS (links)". In fact, CONTEXT's "What generally should be linked" section was rewritten that evening to change from:

"Geographic place names, since many places have similar names, and many readers may be from a distant place."

to:

"Geographic place names that are unlikely to be well-known to English-speakers"

Again, after that change, the text from MoS (links) was copied to CONTEXT's "What generally should not be linked" section. I don't see a consensus here or there for what is, effectively, a reversal of that part of the guideline; if there is, apologies, but it isn't apparent. --Ckatz^chat_spy 07:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is truly bizarre and contradictory. My advice: be bold and revert those sentences (in both guidelines) back to the original if you feel that's the way it should read. If no one says anything, then we're good. If there are any objections, then we have an opportunity to have a real discussion on it and find out where consensus lies.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 07:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The current wording is now unsatisfactory, and will need to be changed when we sort out the wording out CONTEXT. Tony (talk) 04:54, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I intend to add two points (not this exact wording):

• Where a section is more specifically related to the article in question, pipe-link to that rather than to the whole article.
• Do not force the reader to click a link to learn the basic relevance of an item. For example: "In 1909, a member of India House Madan Lal Dhingra assassinated Sir W.H. Curzon Wyllie", in the lead of India House, where who the hell Wyllie was will be known only to a select group of experts. Tony (talk) 04:52, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that your second point is already covered by WP:Lead section#Provide an accessible overview, so I wouldn't support a duplicatory point here. That's just an example of bad writing, not bad linking. Whether or not Wyllie is linked, the reader still has no idea why he was important. I agree with your first point, though. The second paragraph of the Context section currently reads:

Links should use the most precise target that arises in the context, even where the target is a simple redirect to a less specific page. Do not use a piped link to avoid otherwise legitimate redirect targets that fit well within the scope of the text. This assists in determining when a significant number of references to redirected links warrant more detailed articles.

I'd insert a few words: (my additions in bold):

Links should use the most precise target that arises in the context, even where the target is a simple redirect to a less specific page. Do not use a piped link to avoid otherwise legitimate redirect targets that fit well within the scope of the text. This also applies when the redirect leads to a section of the article. This assists in determining when a significant number of references to redirected links warrant more detailed articles. In fact, the creation of such redirects is encouraged.

The last addition was my own idea. If we're discouraging piped links in favor of redirects, then a redirect with possibilities should be even more encouraged.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 10:51, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• (1) This involves far more than lead sections; it concerns linking in general. The lead section does not refer explictly to links. This point does need to be made somewhere, and MOSLINK is the obvious place. Bad writing it may be in the Wyllie case, but it interacts with wikilinking. Editors have been known to think they can rely on linking, thus avoiding the need to explain something on the spot. This is a regrettable practice. The link is still justified, though.
• (2) In the CONTEXT wording, the use of "redirect" leaks into the WP meaning of "redirect", does it not? A different wording is required. And "less specific" than what page? I can't make sense of that whole paragraph—every sentence needs unpacking or clarifying, and if I can't understand it, what hope do many of our editors have? Can you explain it all? I think I need an example that explains every point. [Genuine plea ...]

And why, again, is CONTEXT separate from this page? You might ask why this shouldn't be discussed there; I rest my case. Tony (talk) 12:42, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, that paragraph is really hard to decipher. It needs examples. Embedded in it somewhere, I think, are a few important points.

1. The mention of "the most precise target" is covered by the example elsewhere of linking to flag of Tokelau rather than flag of Tokelau
2. Piped links are for hiding information that the software needs to have spelled out, but the reader knows from context. For example, in an article about the kings of England, you might mention Henry II. You only want the reader to see Henry II, because s/he knows from context that you mean Henry II of England, not any other Henry II, but you have to spell it out in full for the software.
3. Redirects are for transparently going from a specific term to a more general one. As such, they're valuable for future-proofing. If there is no specific article for a topic, just create a redirect to the most appropriate current article (or section within that article). Then anyone who wants to create a more specific article in place of the redirect can do so and all the existing links will automatically lead to the new article, with no changes needed. There are a couple of examples in the discussion below. Colonies Chris (talk) 14:31, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In chemistry articles sometimes I see links such as "tetrachloride". An article is mentioning a tetrachloride, but since we don't have an article called tetrachloride people link to chloride instead. Sounds reasonable in principle, but I think it looks hideous to have a word that is half black and half blue. Are there any guidelines for this? An alternative would be to pipe the link or create a redirect, as in tetrachloride ([[chloride|tetrachloride]]), but it could be considered misleading because the target article doesn't say anything specific about tetrachlorides (usually there's not much to say about these words that are composed using a multiplicative prefix). --Itub (talk) 12:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for raising this. I agree that the black and blue thing is ugly, and worse, will cause many readers to pause and wonder WTF. This is bad formatting. The piping of the whole word is better. Anything is better. Question: does the article "Chloride" add to the readers' understanding if tetrachloride isn't even mentioned there? Tony (talk) 12:32, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The chloride article can be helpful if the reader knows the relevant Greek prefixes, or has learned the rudiments of chemical nomenclature (hopefully taught at the high school level or so). Basically just knowing that tetrachloride is the same as "four chlorides". If the reader doesn't know what tetra means, then the article won't be helpful. --Itub (talk) 12:42, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To my mind, definitely the best solution for this sort of case - where you want to link to a generic article from a specific term - is to create a redirect: tetrachloride --> chloride. Then if anyone ever decides to replace the redirect by an article specifically about tetrachlorides, all the articles that link to tetrachloride will point to the new article without requiring any changes. Using a piped link would then require a difficult search for all articles that mention tetrachloride but pipe link it to chloride. Here's a real example: a while ago I noticed that the play London Assurance was redlinked - despite being quite well known - from several articles. In order to provide some sort of useful link, I created a redirect to the author, Dion Boucicault. A few weeks later, someone came along and replaced the redirect by an article specifically on that play; so now all those articles point to the right place without any further changes being needed. Colonies Chris (talk) 13:26, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In this particular case, another option would be to create a sort of 'annotated redirect'; a stub article which explains the 'tetra' prefix (and links to numerical prefix to explain the general principle), then links to chloride. The choice depends on whether you think readers would be better served by a transparent straight-through redirect or by an explanation followed by a click-through. Colonies Chris (talk) 15:48, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I love the idea of annotated redirects. The problem is that this kind of article often ends up listed at Articles for deletion, accused of being a "dictionary definition" or a "substub with no possibility of expansion". --Itub (talk) 15:57, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An "annotated redirect"? Isn't that what is known as a link in a footnote? :-) Seriously, you can either send people to a page which has a brief explanation and then sends them (via a link) to another page, or you can send them to a footnote at the bottom of the page with a brief explanation and then send them (via a link) to another page. The number of clicks is identical, but you have a tidy footnote at the bottom of a page instead of a stub page that will annoy people. The downside is when you have lots of these footnotes on many pages, all saying the same thing. At that point, it might be best to create a stub page to accommodate all the incoming links. But footnotes work surprisingly well if you want to briefly explain something without interrupting the flow of the article too much. Carcharoth (talk) 23:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a bad example, since any time you see tetrachloride, there will be another element in front of it, i.e. "<element name> tetrachloride" describing what the four chlorine atoms are attached to, and those two words, together, are a chemical that should be linked to if it satisfies MOLINK and CONTEXT. So, for example, we get carbon tetrachloride, which, if it did not have its own article, would be better as a redlink, since someone would probably come along later and create one. Linking it as carbon tetrachloride does nothing helpful for the reader, as neither of the linked articles will tell them anything relevant. So I would actually object to any method which suggested linking the anion and cation separately, just in general. Link the whole chemical name, or not at all. I think this a good general rule for chemicals, but I couldn't speak to other examples or partial-linkage, since I think this is the first time I've seen one.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 19:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it's not the best example, but it is the type of example seen in the wild. In some cases the sentence can be recasted to refer to a specific compound, but this is often seen when the article as about an uncommon element with an even less common tetrachloride that is unlikely to have its own article anytime soon (and I think "perma-redlinks" are a bit annoying). But to give a more specific example from Germanium#Chemistry:

Four tetrahalides are known. Under normal conditions GeI₄ is a solid, GeF₄ a gas and the others volatile liquids. For example germanium tetrachloride, GeCl₄, is obtained as a colourless fuming liquid boiling at 83.1°C by heating the metal with chlorine.

Here the two-color word is tetrahalide, and is not referring to any specific compound. --Itub (talk) 06:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is a better example. :) In this case, I would advise either: a) unlinking it, since the target article doesn't talk about tetrahalides, only mono- and di-, or b) piping the link and expanding the target article to encompass tetrahalides. Either way, the two-color word is aesthetically unappealing, and almost guarantees the link won't be relevant to the context, so I think that something should be added to the guideline specifically saying this.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 07:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would guess that the typical reader of the articles that mention tetrahalides (about a dozen mentions in WP) understands the significance of 'tetra' but might want to get more information on halides in general. If there's a prospect that someone might one day write an article about the common characteristics of tetrahalides (if there are any? - I'm no chemist) it'd be better to create a redirect: tetrahalide --> halide, that could be expanded into an article later. It would also be less work to create a redirect than to pipe any existing links. Colonies Chris (talk) 11:54, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Point. I still think that if you're going to create the redirect, though, you should add something to the target article that gives a clue why you were redirected there, so you're not wandering around an article on halides wondering where your tetra went. (mmm...fish)--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 16:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I frequently come upon consecutive linked words, most often where the first term is to the far more directly relevant term while the second one goes to a parent article. The most recent example and the reason I'm finally posting here was from Gamma Cassiopeiae, where the consecutive words Cassiopeia constellation were linked to Cassiopeia (constellation) and constellation, respectively. I changed the link, as I sometimes do when I come across examples like this to one unified piped link to [[Cassiopeia (constellation)|Cassiopeia constellation]].

Personally, I regard such consecutive word links to be highly confusing, especially for non-editors who may not even realise that there are two different links. I also know that sometimes, linking from consecutive words can hardly be avoided. But imho the MOS should state that such links should be avoided wherever possible. Everyme 23:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It does state this. Third bullet in "Overlinking and underlinking". Tony (talk) 01:47, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh. Ahm. Right. Sorry & nevermind. Everyme 04:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if there's any aesthetically unobjectionable way to make it clear that the two links are not connected.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 05:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd argue that in cases where consecutive links are valid, it is more or less obvious that they are different links. The main problem comes with things like my example, when the two links are closely related, most often in a subtopic-parent topic way. Everyme 05:31, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As recently discussed at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_55#Redundant guidelines, there are 4 different pages giving 4 different sets of advice on what to link: Wikipedia:Build the web, Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context, Wikipedia:Wikipedia doesn't use Allwiki and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links). I remember Aervanath was working on this a while ago, and I'm glad to see that some progress has been made: User:Mr.Z-man recently demoted WP:ALLWIKI. But we're not home yet; I see that WP:BUILD still has sentences like this one: "George Washington should be linked to from President of the United States". It is very uncommon for a page on a particular public office to link to all the individuals who have been holders of that office. The style guidelines have ignored WP:BUILD and WP:ALLWIKI for a long time, and it looks like further work and negotiation is going to have to happen if we want to start linking to WP:BUILD. Better yet, it's probably time to get rid of at least one of the 3 remaining pages, and maybe 2 of them. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:07, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed there's some relevant discussion over at WT:CONTEXT; I'll move my thoughts over there, and bring in the chat from WP:VPP, too. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see what's wrong with linking George Washington from President of the United States. He was the first and probably the most famous president, wasn't he? Whether every president should be listed in that article or only in the "List of..." is a different question. --Itub (talk) 08:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't aware when I wrote this that there was already a thread on merging and linking among the (now 3) relevant pages ... I'll answer over at WT:CONTEXT. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 13:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking at Wikipedia:MOSLINK#Overlinking_and_underlinking, but there is nothing in that section on underlinking or how to avoid it. Should there be? No mention of what underlinking is on the whole page. Carcharoth (talk) 00:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Carcharoth (talk) 06:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No one has convinced me one iota that underlinking, as Aerdavath claims, is rife. When I ask for examples, I get lists of shambolic stubs. Tony (talk) 05:58, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And yet, while I have at least attempted to provide evidence to you, you have made no attempt to provide evidence to me.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 07:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would there be any interest in noting on this page that one way to add links of secondary interest is to move "editorial aside" comments to a footnote and link to the articles there. i.e. instead of putting an aside in brackets, put it in a note at the bottom of the article instead. See here for the original post. Carcharoth (talk) 00:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For anyone who hasn't yet seen it so far, there's an RFC currently open at WT:MOSNUM on whether dates of birth and death in the first sentence of a biography article should be linked or not.

This is an issue that has recently come to a head, with the new deprecation of date auto-formatting, and recent bot-driven de-linking sprees. Jheald (talk) 19:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To correct this blatant POV, read "effort" instead of "spree". Dishonest language will get you nowhere, Jheald. Tony (talk) 05:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, in MOS:LINK under the "Internal links" section, it states: "Do not link items in the title or headings.". Does this apply to Templates such as Template:Anglican Cathedrals in the British_Isles as well, or only to article titles and headings. Thank you. --HighKing (talk) 16:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it refers to section headings. I'd think that most navbox headings should contain a link to the main article, e.g. {{Johnny Cash}} or {{Sugababes}}. In {{Anglican Cathedrals in the British Isles}} however there appears to be no such main article, so I would not link Anglican or British Isles there. --Amalthea^Talk 16:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Do not link items in the title or headings" confuses me though. How can I link an item in a title? --Amalthea^Talk 16:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it really means "in the repetition of the title in bold text in the lead of the article", but that's a little cumbersome. David Underdown (talk) 16:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent)Any other opinions on this? Or put another way - is there an actual policy that explicitly deals with links in template headings? I perhaps misunderstood the MOS:LINK policy and assumed... --HighKing (talk) 16:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think Amalthea and David Underdown have stated the consensus view quite capably, HighKing. While I'm not aware of any specific policy or guideline that addresses the issue, current practice certainly follows what they've said. Anything else you'd like cleared up?--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 17:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, now I'm confused... Amalthea says not to link. David doesn't say here, but on the template Talk page he says that linking is OK. So which? Is there a policy? Links in template headings or not? Thank you. --HighKing (talk) 18:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Amalthea is only saying not to link in cases where the title of the template is not also the title of an article. While I doubt this is written in policy anywhere, it makes sense to me. So, since there is no Anglican Cathedrals in the British Isles article, I would not link that in the template heading. However, to answer what I think is your underlying question: There is no specifically written policy or guideline for linking templates and headers in templates. Still confused?--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 04:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. This means you should be bold and design it as you think best.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 04:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

← Having had a look at the template in question and its talk page boldness has been tried. Also note that my opinion doesn't reflect current practice: Looking only through the templates of the same category I found {{ECUSA Provinces}}, {{Anglican hierarchy in the United Kingdom and Ireland}} and {{Province of New Zealand}} which link several items in the navbox title.
We have, BTW, the essay at WP:NAVBOX, but I don't think it says anything about it at the moment.
So I guess further opinions are still welcome. --Amalthea^Talk 10:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's strange that there's no lead. This is an initial draft. Does anyone have ideas on how it can be improved?

Wikilinking is one of the most important features of Wikipedia. It binds the project together into an interconnected whole, and it suggests closely related and useful pathways between locations both within the project and to external destinations. The four basic types of link—internal and external, piped and unpiped—are explained on this page in terms of their mechanical aspects and the contexts in which they are used.

Tony (talk) 15:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You should probably start with "Linking is ..." instead, as external links are not wikilinks. I think the "four types" part could be improved—it makes it sound like there is such a thing as a piped external link. I also wonder if this page should cover interwiki linking as well. Pagrashtak 13:33, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Pagrashtak—that is very helpful; I'd wondered about those things myself. At the Help page (linked to in the first section, these things are explained, although in very technical terms and too much detail for MOSLINK. But yes, I think they should be briefly explained here, and exemplified. I also think that the opening "How to create links" should go further down, when they know what they're creating. It's kind of empty at the moment. Tony (talk) 14:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I'm not too keen on the "how to" section. It's good advice, but not really a style issue. It seems like a better fit for Wikipedia:How to edit a page, or something along those lines. Let's be honest, by the time an editor is reading a MOS subpage, he already knows how to create and check a link. As for interwiki, this page should include at least a mention of a special type of overlinking that I've employed in this sentence. Pagrashtak 17:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The sequential points were very strange at one point (save, then fix?). Very messy, unexplained, makes assumptions I can't understand, so our newbies will be totally confused. Does this para refer to piped "Year-in-X" links? If so, they need to be introduced properly in their own subsection. It's strangely informal at the end—"we did a little research and came up with useful info for you" is the implication. I've removed it because it's misleading and confusing. External links are treated under their own section further down. Why here fleetingly??

All of the things that need to be typed in like (film) or (1935 film) or (TV series) or changing the link to avoid redirects can be done right then and there. Wikipedia's charm is diminished when links lead to areas that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. Much of what we have mentioned also applies to creating external links ( [ ] ), but we have found very few of these that went somewhere unintended.

Tony (talk) 15:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This statement can't possibly be what is intended:

These links should be included where it is most likely that readers might want to use them; for example, in article leads, the beginnings of new sections, table cells, and image captions.

The implication could be that these are the only places one should link in. Another implication might be that you should probably link in captions and table cells. I think it probably needs to be replaced with something less ambiguous and more helpful. Unsure as yet what to write. Tony (talk) 15:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm perplexed as to what this following paragraph means. It's kind of like a little "how to" guide, but I don't see how it would help anyone. It repeats what was in the "How to create links" section above, badly.

Link a word or phrase to the proper page. Use Preview to check a link, and follow it by opening the page to which the link directs. If that page does not seem to exist, do a quick search to find out whether the article may have a differently worded title or if the subject is included in a section of another article.

I've removed it. Tony (talk) 14:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good God no. Please rephrase that and put it back in. It is warning people against one of the most common mistakes (OK, I can't prove that, but I do see it time and time again) made by editors (or new editors at least). They wikilink and then save and don't check to see whether the link goes to the correct article. I found that on the Royal Medal article. With this edit (on 11 July 2008), someone added three links to the three award winners this year. That was fine for Sir Alan Fersht (a redirect created in 2006, to an article created in 2004). It was also fine for Philip Cohen (an article that was created in 2007), though it was piped to appear at "Sir Philip Cohen", which was not a redirect (Sir Philip Cohen - I just created this) - possibly the editor previewed "Sir Philip Cohen" and when he found a redlink he changed it to the piped version pointing at Philip Cohen, and then saved. If so, he should have just created a redirect, which I have just done. But for the final award winner, the edit in July 2008 created a redlink (this is the point where I apologise to the person who made the "Royal Medal" edit, as the mistake was not theirs). Things get complicated now, but bear with me. A month later, in August 2008, someone created an article with the title "Robert Hedges". Not the scientist, but a 19th century colonial administrator. Unfortunately, they made a mistake that is also very common - they forgot to check "what links here" to make sure that their new article wasn't linked from the wrong places. The article creation is here. I recently moved that article to Robert Hedges (colonial administrator), changed Robert Hedges into a disambiguation page, changed the link on the Royal Medal page to Robert Hedges (scientist) (which I will try and write later) and did a completely pointless (and untidy) expansion of Hedges. The point is that with common names, it is vitally important to check, both when creating links (that you are linking to the right place), and when creating articles (to make sure that any pre-existing incoming links, which were red and which you've now turned blue, are pointing to the right place). Phew. This is standard stuff to most people, but difficult to explain to new editors. I'm sure most of this is explained somewhere already, but do you think something concise can be put in about this? Carcharoth (talk) 21:55, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's already pointed out in the numbered sequence of how to create a link, currently at the top. I think that section comes too early, though. We certainly don't want this point to be made twice, and telling people to link "to the proper page" isn't helpful—who would do otherwise intentionally? It's a mechanical thing. Tony (talk) 02:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is one of the most important points. It is far more important that people link to the right articles than making sure they link only the important stuff. If you emphasise that they need to take care checking each and every link, and checking to see if you are linking to a disambiguation page, for example, then people are more likely to take it slowly and think about it and only link the important stuff. You say it is mechanical, but I fear many people hit "save" or "preview" and when they see the link appear blue, they assume they've linked to the right article, but don't follow it. I mean, obviously if you know what the article is, that's fine. But if you are linking "in hope of finding an article", then you must check what you've linked to. It is also important (though goodness knows where) to encourage people to check links in articles regularly (where-ever they are) - that is the only way link-vandalism is detected and repaired, and it is the only way incorrect links are spotted and corrected. The final point is to be aware that creating an article may turn existing redlinks to that article blue. Hence it is important to check not only outgoing links, but also incoming ones. i.e. Whenever someone creates an article, they should check "what links here", and if there are any incoming links, to check that they are correct. You aren't going to say that is a mechanical thing? It is something that people only do if they are told about the need to do it. It is also one of the tragedies about the pollution of "what links here" with template-cruft-links. "What links here" used to be a good tool for checking and maintaining the network of links interconnecting articles. That whole philosophy, of carefully checking links (in both directions, in and out of an article) and repairing disambiguation pages, and creating redirects where needed, and creating redlinks where needed. That is the whole philosophy of careful care of links that needs to be communicated either here, at MOSLINK, or at a subsidiary essay (either CONTEXT or BUILD). A dry style guideline doesn't quite communicate the care and attention needed. Carcharoth (talk) 02:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now you've explained things that I wasn't quite aware of and that probably need to be succinctly dealt with in MOSLINK; but it doesn't change my first point, which is that we don't want to refer to these issues in two different places. What about renaming "How to create links" --> "The importance of checking links", and expanding its scope to include maintenance? It should definitely go further down. Tony (talk) 10:25, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please take a look now at these two new sections—Checking links as they are created and Link maintenance, which have subsumed the previous opening section ("How to create links"). Are they what you had in mind? Tony (talk) 11:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perfect, and very nicely done! Thanks for taking the time to do that. Now it's just a case of finding the other pages that talk about this and making sure they are directed here, or what they say is consistent with this! You'd be surprised how quickly different pages get out of synch. See the section I posted below about interlanguage links. I'm sure there are different pages saying completely different things about interlanguage links: WP:MOSLINK (does it mention it?), WP:REDLINK (what was written here about article creation impacting possibly existing redlinks probably need to go there as well), and WP:Interlanguage. All those are to do with links, quite separately from WP:BUILD and WP:CONTEXT, so it all needs tidying up! Carcharoth (talk) 11:25, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, one thing. You say "adjust or reconceive the link". I think people may be confused by "reconceive". Are you trying to cover the options of: (a) removing the link entirely; (b) leaving it as a redlink? My thoughts here are that even after searching and failing to find some article, you might, during that process, change your mind and realise that there is unlikely to be an article (the temptation is always to look anyway - it is amazing what obscure topics you can find really good articles on), and thus to change your mind about link and remove the square brackets. The other option is that you might think - there should be an article on this and leaving it as a redlink (while still wondering in the back of your mind if you missed an obvious location for the article you were looking for). Too far off topic here, but it is articles on people with the same names, from different centuries and occupations, that are hardest to track down sometimes. But to give an example of "reconceiving" a link, I recently, while updating Sir Robert Muir, linked to bacterial pathology (the name of the subject he lectured on in the 1890s. There was no direct link, not surprising because that is an archaic name for what was then a new speciality. It really needs an expert to be certain what the equivalent subject is today, but after a bit of reading around, and rejecting bacteriology (he was a pathologist more than a microbiologist), I settled on linking to medical microbiology, while piping the text to display "bacterial pathology". That might confuse some people, and some people would have left that as a redlink, or linked bacterial and pathology separately, but I'm happy with the decision I made there. The other example is "St Andrews University (Dundee)", which I'm torn on. At the time, this was a college of St Andrews University, but located in Dundee. It later became Dundee University. I could (and maybe should) have explained this in the article, but instead went with a piped link to "Dundee University". Readers will see the "Dundee" qualifier in the piped text of "St Andrews University (Dundee)", and hopefully the lead section of Dundee University will always make clear its St Andrews origins. Examples of explicit side-explication in the article include: "Trivandrum is today known as Thiruvananthapuram, and is the capital of the Indian State of Kerala, but then it was the capital of the Indian Raj of Travancore, and part of the British Empire." (John Allan Broun), and "Schumacher edited the journal at the observatory in Altona, then part of Denmark, later part of Prussia, and today part of the German city of Hamburg." (Astronomische Nachrichten). The final example (from Sir Robert Muir again) is "blood cell disorders". I rejected blood cell as a hopeless article (though some would say that by linking to it, you increase the chance someone will improve it), and rejected haematology as too modern in tone. I eventually linked to hematologic disease, er, because it looks impressive. That's also a modern classification of blood disorders, but by that time I was completely unable to get my head around what sort of blood cell disorders were studied in the early 20th century. Ideally, the article will later explain that. Possibly I should have just left the term unlinked. But there you go. Three examples of "reconceiving" links. Of course, most people don't analyse to that level of detail, and are far more cautious. Some just link-and-go, some leave things unlinked and vulnerable to others coming along and incorrectly linking later. My view is that getting a fairly accurate link in early can avoid problems later. If, later, there are sections or articles specifically on the state of "bacterial pathology" in the 1890s and "blood cell disorders" in the early 20th century, and on the early history of "St Andrews Unversity, Dundee" (thought I think the history section of Dundee University works well, there is also material in St Andrews University article), then the links can be updated. Carcharoth (talk) 11:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• (1) Can you suggest a better word than "reconceive", then? (2) I've had a look at WP:REDLINK. It's rather short, and why on earth can't it be merged into MOSLINK? Tony (talk) 12:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Repurpose"? :-) No, I think "adjust" and "change" covers nearly everything. The only thing it doesn't cover is leaving it as a redlink. Talking of which: WP:REDLINK. There are over 500 links to Wikipedia:Red link. Three from articles! (some interesting reasons there). There are tons of links from user talk pages, so Wikipedia:Red link is being used directly to educate editors about what redlinks are. Whether that is a plus or minus for a merge, I don't know. You also have to consider the history. There is a fairly extensive talk page: Wikipedia talk:Red link - that would have to be archived somewhere. The page itself has been around since 2004. First version here. So I would be wary of merging without discussion. Carcharoth (talk) 12:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone explain what this means?

Automated processes should not replace or pipe links to redirects. Instead, the link should always be examined in context.

It needs to be spelt out for newbies. Tony (talk) 15:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like WP:REDIRECT#NOTBROKEN. Pagrashtak 13:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One thing I would like to clarify here is what to do what you are listing, say, a list of prizewinners, and the official source refers to them by a different name to the title of the Wikipedia article. Here is a simple example. At the Royal Society's list of winners of the Royal Medal, the second medal in 1894 was awarded to Joseph John Thomson. Our article used to say, in this version, "Joseph John Thomson". When I expanded the article (which was incomplete, back in January 2007), I added the names of the winners as on the Royal Society website (in this edit) and wikilinked them. In this case, the redirect had existed since 2005. For other examples, I went through the list of redlinks and turned them into redirects to where our articles where (quite tricky at times). In some cases, this helped fix redlinks that had existed in other articles, turning them blue (always need to check this when creating a redirect, otherwise you could be misleading people who read other articles). But my question here is whether it is best to leave such redirects in place, or pipe the source text to appear over the redirect. I've used this example because someone recently came along and changed the redirect to the name of the article. I have (just now) changed this so that piped text shows the name as given by the Royal Society on their website. One point is that in this case there is little chance of confusion, but in other cases (more common names and less famous people) there is real chance of confusion. The way I see it, there are four options:

• (1) [[John Joseph Thomson]] - use a redirect that is the same as the source text
• (2) [[John Joseph Thomson|J. J. Thomson]] - use the redirect, but pipe the target title
• (3) [[J. J. Thomson|John Joseph Thomson]] - link to the article, and pipe the source text
• (4) [[J. J. Thomson]] - link to the article with no piping
• (5) John Joseph Thomson - [[J. J. Thomson]] - give the source text followed by a link to the article

One of the disadvantages of using any redirects (options 1 and 2) is that if someone vandalises the redirect, and you are only watching the article, there is no way for the editor to know that the vandalism has occurred until they click on the link (in fact, I can't believe that in over 3 years here, I've never thought of that before). The advantage of options 1 and 3 is that the reader sees what the source said. The possible advantage for options 2 and 4 is that the reader might be more likely to recognise the name "J. J. Thomson" than "John Joseph Thomson". Finally, a slight disadvantage of options 2 and 3 is that the mouse-up (when you hover over the link with your mouse cursor) is different to what the text says. Overall, I think option 3 is slightly better, but option 1 is also OK. I don't think options 2 or 4 are that good, but I'd like to hear what others think. An alternative to linking exactly what the source says is to quote the source in one column of a table, and to provide the link in another (option 5 above). This is the approach I took at Frieze of Parnassus, partly because the monument inscriptions use archaic 19th century spellings of medieval names, something I wanted to preserve for the reader and for the integrity of the source (in this case the monument inscriptions and the official listing of the names - in another column). This might seem incredibly pedantic, but if there is any reason to favour one or other of the five options above, I'd be interested to see which one is best (if any). Carcharoth (talk) 21:35, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3 looks best to me, but I am certainly no expert on navigation. If using Option 5, I'd be piping "J.J. Thomson" without the space, anyway! Tony (talk) 11:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Goodness. I just found (via WP:Red link), the following: Wikipedia:Interlanguage#Inline interlanguage links. It seems there is a school of thought that favours inline interwikilinks. I think the presumption is that people follow the link, see a foreign language, and are inspired to translate it. I think a better approach would be to leave it as a redlink, but have some way of saying to people "X number of articles on this exist in other language: link, link , links" (maybe in a footnote), and to say "please translate one of them for us. Or maybe not. The other point is that some people use a large number of existing redlinks to work out which articles are most "in demand" and to write (or translate) them. Use "what links here on a redlink to see what I mean: e.g. this allowed me to find out that William Henry Lang won the Linnean Medal and worked with Isabel Clifton Cookson. There is a William Lang (US football team coach). An examination of "what links here" for that William Lang shows us that someone has linked a William Lang in John Struthers (poet) - this one is a 19th century printer (could be notable, don't know. As a side point, Tony, what links here for William Lang is polluted with overlinking from a template. Namely, Template:Maryland Terrapins football coach navbox. Use of templates like that is responsible for huge amounts of overlinking. But I've gone way off-topic again. What should be done about inline interlanguage links? Carcharoth (talk) 22:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Currently, MOSLINK says:

There is no rule as to whether "See also Train" or "See also train", but consistency is required for multiple links. Linking never forces the use of an initial capital letter, so you can leave the initial letter lower case if you so desire, in the interest of readability.

Um ... I've always corrected examples of the former, since wikilinking was made to be flexible enough to take either upper- or lower-case initial, and it seems wrong not to integrate links into the grammar of their context.

Is there any objection to changing this to encourage editors to use upper or lower case according to which fits the grammar of the context in which the link is used? Tony (talk) 14:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

None from me. I routinely switch between lower and upper case depending on the context, remembering to keep proper nouns capitalised of course. It might be querying what the style should be in a "see also" list in the "See also" sections. Stand-alone lists of links should have capitalised initials, right? But I think that what you quoted was referring to inline links in an article sentence. Or is it referring to "see also" hatlinks? Carcharoth (talk) 15:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Earlier this month, Avearneth added a statement that "many articles suffer from underlinking" (proceeding to balance this by adding "overlinking" to the sentence). I've now made the prose neater and removed the negative "suffer". Apart from this, I've asked for justification of this assertion about underlinking, as has another editor above. I really haven't received a proper answer to this query. Can we have better examples than the list that was previously provided, to support this quite recent addition to the text? Tony (talk) 15:16, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think people mean articles that are not wikified at all. Category:Articles that need to be wikified (a bad example is The Guild of Cornish Hedgers, a better example is Gregory J. Harbaugh). What I think should be discussed is whether mature articles, considered to be good, are sometimes found to be missing links. Sometimes that is more because the missing text is not there (and so can't be linked). At other times, there may be huge bits of rambling prose with no wikilinks. I think there is a direct reaction opposite to the "sea of blue" reaction, which is to react with horror to a "sea of white" (or whatever colour people see unlinked text as being). Carcharoth (talk) 15:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tony, in fairness, you have yet to provide sufficient proof of overlinking. If you could please do so, that would be great, so that we could get a complete picture of the over/underlinking environment on Wikipedia. Not only is there Category:Articles that need to be wikified, but also Category:Dead-end pages (which, yes, does have some articles which are not actual nonsense), Wikipedia:Dead-end pages, and most importantly (in my view) Category:Orphaned articles, which has 54,429 members (and counting). All of these, in my opinion, point to a certain issue with underlinking.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 16:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another point is that some people, when deciding what to link, indiscriminately link as much as possible (within reason) and preview it (this is what I do), and then examine the context some of the links provide, and remove some, and correct some redlinks, and so on. Eventually, I sit back and look at the article as a whole and see if I've got the balance right. The other approach is to only link stuff that you know we have articles on, and not to link other stuff. When I first started on Wikipedia, there were certain classes of things that it was rare to find articles on. Now, three years later, it is possible to find obscure articles on things you wouldn't have dreamed of being articles back then. I should do a list of really obscure stuff (where the articles are good) to prove this point. One point is that poeple might not think of linking journal articles, or the names of old books (a discussion I've been having elsewhere today, see here). You might expect to have On the Origin of Species, but not everyone would think of linking Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, or De revolutionibus orbium coelestium, or De sphaera mundi, still less Antiseptic Principle of the Practice of Surgery, or On the Equilibrium of Heterogeneous Substances. You really don't know unless you try. I think both points should be made: look for key points as articles, even if you don't think Wikipedia has an article - you might be surprised. However, even if we have an article, it is not always necessary to link it. Try and get a good spread of possible links, and then winnow them down. Carcharoth (talk) 16:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So Aevernath responds by refusing to provide evidence, and instead demanding evidence from me of "overlinking". I didn't think that was in contention; and it's a "you go first" stance, is it? But you were the editor who recently added the angle about "underlinking". The issue of underlinking, whatever your strategy here, remains undemonstrated. You are the only person I've ever seen to make such a fuss about it, framing it as a major problem. There's an army of WPians I could gather (if I wanted to bother them over what they'd see as a trivial, foregone conclusion) to attest to overlinking. I simply see no evidence that underlinking is a significant problem, and all you've provided is a list of stubs. Stubs are highly likely to lack a lot of things, including proper linking: that doesn't demonstrate that underlinking is this large problem you're suggesting. Tony (talk) 04:58, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've also left a note one the WP:OVERLINK talk page. There has been much argument on this, but having read OVERLINK, I find it's almost entirely about over-AND-underlinking, and it's all valuable, but too long to be all crammed into MOSLINK. Thus, it serves as a valuable main article for just the section on over and underlinking in MOSLINK. So I've listed it that way. There are a few bits in OVERLINK to move, but really, that classifies all this info nicely, now. What say you all? SBHarris 18:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, I've just tweaked the link slightly to reflect that "OVERLINK" is a redirect to "Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context". --Ckatz^chat_spy 20:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the point of linking there, since that page desperately needs to be merged into this one. Tony (talk) 04:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed "suffer", but I haven't yet touched the use of the rather negative terms "overlink" and "underlink" in the title. This area of the MoS is splintered between MOSLINK and CONTEXT, and is a prime reason for rationalisation (specifically, the merging of the latter into the former). What I propose is that this be done without affecting the current substantive balance between over/under taking both pages as a whole. I hope this will avoid political disputes. But the merger needs to involve a rationalisation of the text.

In particular, I wonder why a Manual of Style has to cast aspersions on articles by starting with this:

Many articles are underlinked or overlinked. An article is likely to be considered underlinked if subjects are not linked that are necessary to the understanding of the article. An article may be overlinked if any of the following is true:

"Many" is impossible to define, and there are unanswered queries here in relation to the existence of underlinking as a "problem". I note that this angle has only been recently added to MOSLINK by Averneath, and that when asked to justify it, he responds by asking me to provide other evidence.

I think the paragraph above is unnecessary and fails to assist editors. It would be better to simply state what generally should be linked and what generally should not be linked, as CONTEXT does. Tony (talk) 05:01, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. It's not articles as a whole we are concerned with, it's the appropriateness of particular links. An article may well contain examples of both overlinking and underlinking, and the two issues don't cancel each other out (like the statistician with his feet in hot water and his head in ice, or whatever it was).--Kotniski (talk) 09:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]