A sub-page Talk:Bahá'u'lláh/Photo has been added to post opinions regarding the photo issue

1. /Archive 1 Orthodox Bahais, some factual (in)accuracies, Baha'ullah's wives and the picture
2. /Archive 2 contains more debate about the picture and the wives
3. /Archive 3 about Mirza Yahya and a lot more about the picture
4. /Archive 4 Has not been parcelled out to the other archives yet. Cunado19 02:51, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
5. /Archive 5 Has not been parcelled out to the other archives yet. Cunado19 17:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Archives have been reorganised as follows to make it easier to follow the discussion threads:

• /Archive Exile
• /Archive Format
• /Archive language skills
• /Archive NPOV
• /Archive Orthodox
• /Archive Picture
• /Archive Wives
• /Archive Personal_Attacks

The original Archives remain unchanged for the time being. --Occamy 22:19, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I just completely redid the page. Several sections are commented out instead of deleted, so things can be put back in easily.

I also started using the quote format found here... Quotation Cunado19 6 July 2005 14:09 (UTC)

OK I'm pretty much done with grammar and link edits. I'll leave the commented out portions in there for another few weeks in case someone wants to merge parts in.

It appears to me that a lot of the "objective" sources used here are just people that read the Baha'i history books and made their own comments. I don't see them as a unique source of information. The Ahmadiyya web site, which is quoted all over the Baha'i pages, is a group who wrote "history and doctrines of the Babi movement" in an attempt to argue away the Baha'i Faith and establish their own prophet as the true Mihdi. They are not even from the same area, their movement began in Pakistan in the late 19th century. Their best arguments are just making accusations and have no historical foundation. Feel free to quote it all you want, but don't present it as some objective source revealing the true story of Baha'u'llah. Cunado19 8 July 2005 02:25 (UTC)

Just an idea, if anyone knows how to do this, we should put a link at the top that makes a sound pronouncing "Baha'u'llah". Most people can't pronounce it from seeing how it's spelled. Here is an example of another wiki page doing it. Cunado19 00:54, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting thought - Its quite easy though - simply record your voice saying the name to an "ogg vorbis" format sound file and link it. In my opinion I think it might be good for a native Persian speaker to say it however as I'm well aware that the pronounciation gets slurred by the rest of us.

Why use ogg vorbis? read the page and you'll see. Its all to do with licencing (strictly speaking if wikipedia were to use mp3 then they'd have to pay around 2-3c every time a file is saved I believe. Vorbis is available under "free" licence (and is also better). -- Tomhab 21:15, 14 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Basically what's got me writing this is the line:

"most notably the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and the Book of Certitude"

in the first paragraph. Its fine, except it uses the Farci for Aqdas and the English for the Iqan. First off the Aqdas was written in the Arabic anyway (and formally called the "Kitab-al-Aqdas" which is how it is said in Arabic), but thats not the point.

My proposal is to have some sort of scheme for this type of thing. I offer my personal favourites, but only insist on consistency (for obvious reasons of one confusing between the Kitab-i-Iqan and the Book of Certitude).

I propose sticking to the Farci (as they're best known as) of "Kitab-i-Aqdas" and "Kitab-i-Iqan" and references to their English meanings are only added afterwards. Thats because "Most Holy Book" sounds odd, and not too many people know what the Arabic name. For other books use the name which they are most commonly known by (no need to dig up how to say "Hidden words" in Farci.

Please let me know your thoughts. -- Tomhab 17:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's a good suggestion. --Occamy 21:08, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. As long as they're linked it doesn't matter too much I think. Cunado19 03:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

About Subh-i-Azal making a claim... There are a number of things that Bayanis claim that are contrary to Baha'i history books. The murders, the poison, the character of Baha'u'llah, the character of Azal, the successor of Azal, and I'm sure many others.

As I've come to understand, the only real external source was EG Browne. The fact that he didn't record Azal making his claim doesn't mean anything. If Azal did make the claim, he eventually gave it up, that's obvious now. But Baha'i history books say that he did make the claim, and as a Baha'i, I have some confidence in those that I don't have in Bayanis. I don't expect others to feel the same, but I wouldn't exactly call it a Baha'i myth. I'll take out any references that he did order murders, poison Bah'u'llah, and claim to be HWGSMM. And I'll make them Baha'i references instead.

The following is interesting on the subject...

"The name of E. G. Browne stands very high among orientalists of this or any age. His fame is supported by solid, enduring achievement. But in the works of this renowned scholar Mirza Yahya is given a prominence which is misleading. It has actually misled some whose sincerity is above reproach, and has also provided argument to men obviously hostile to the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh... it is also a fact that Edward Browne was tragically mistaken, that his considerable prestige aided the furtherance of the designs of the adversaries of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh."

"It is strange to see Mr H. Kamshad presenting Bahá’u’lláh and Subh-i-Azal as ‘descendants’ of the Báb, and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá as the ‘founder of Bahaism’. Also strange is Mr Peter Avery’s statement that Bahá’u’lláh was the ‘chosen successor’ to the Báb. Stranger is Mme Vera Kubickova’s reference to Haji Mirza Yahya Dawlatabadi as a member of ‘the Bahá’í sect’—proficient man-of-letters and a famous politician, who was in no way favourably inclined towards the Bahá’í Faith. Prof. Joseph M. Upton states that it was Subh-i-Azal who was ‘transferred to Adrianople at the request of the Shah’. Mr John Marlowe in a footnote asserts that ‘Bahai’ism is a heretical variant of Islam’. Mr Donald N. Wilber mentions that some 40,000 Bábís were massacred about two years after the martyrdom of the Báb, and that Mirza Yahya ‘settled at Adrianople’. These are only a few instances chosen at random from more recent works."

(H.M. Balyuzi, E.G. Browne and The Baha'i Faith, p. 5)

Cunado19 03:27, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think you misunderstand me. I am looking for accademic claims that Subh-i-Azal claimed to be Him Whom God Shall Make Manifest (will use HWGSMM from here). I have read quite a lot on the history of the era and on the topic of those claiming to be HWGSMM but can't remember seeing anything about Subh-i-Azal claiming to be it. I am fully aware of the various claims and counter claims of the two Babi 'sects'. If you can remember where you've read it then we can put it in, but it doesn't appear to come up often in the stuff I've read.

I called it a Baha'i myth, but perhaps meant an urban legend - something that is mentioned in children's classes and during uninformed Baha'i banter, but not in accademic literature (as they know better).

Having said this, I would be happy to be proven wrong -- Tomhab 23:41, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The quote about all the academic sources making wildly inaccurate statements was kind of the point. EG Browne is the most accurate as far as I can tell, but even he made some mistakes. When he interviewed Azal, of course he didn't record him claiming to be HWGSMM, but that doesn't prove or disprove it, since one "academic" source said that he was a Baha'i.

Baha'i sources report his claim in God Passes By and The Dawn-breakers, which are the two primary sources of history.

So really there's no way to academically prove it that I know of. If he did, for obvious reasons he stopped, and his followers hid any trace of it to keep their movement alive. Like I said, I think it falls into the category of disputed claims, like the poison, that have no external academic sources on the subject. Report it however you want, I'm really not as opinionated as I'm sounding. As long as you don't call it a Baha'i myth/legend, cause it is stated in Baha'i history books. Cunado19 15:17, 25 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that academic sources are based on primary sources anyway, and the primary sources here come from two groups that are entirely opposed to each other, and whose accounts differ in most respects - something that's very hard for a historian to later put together a certain account of - they all have to deal with the questions of *which* accounts they're going to trust. Hmm - I can't remember GPB and Dawn Breakers mentioning Azal making a claim to anything other than being the Bab's appointed successor. Cunado, can you give us the extracts from those two sources that say that? Bahá'í (it's a long time since I read them, and they are both long books - still I thought I would have remembered something as important as that about Azal's claims!) PaulHammond 11:52, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

At the instigation of Siyyid Muhammad-i-Isfahani, Mirza Yahya betrayed the trust of the Báb, claimed to be His successor, and intrigued against Bahá’u’lláh, even attempting to have Him murdered. When Bahá’u’lláh formally declared His Mission to him in Adrianople, Mirza Yahya responded by going to the length of putting forward his own claim to be the recipient of an independent revelation. His pretensions were eventually rejected by all but a few, who became known as Azalis

(note 190 of The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 248)

Siyyid Muhammad-i-Isfahani, who is described by Shoghi Effendi as the “Antichrist of the Bahá’í Revelation”. He was a man of corrupt character and great personal ambition who induced Mirza Yahya to oppose Bahá’u’lláh and to claim prophethood for himself...

(note 192 of The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 249)

Mirza Aqa Jan was accordingly commissioned to bear to Mirza Yahya the newly revealed Suriy-i-Amr, which unmistakably affirmed those claims, to read aloud to him its contents, and demand an unequivocal and conclusive reply. Mirza Yahya’s request for a one day respite, during which he could meditate his answer, was granted. The only reply, however, that was forthcoming was a counter-declaration, specifying the hour and the minute in which he had been made the recipient of an independent Revelation, necessitating the unqualified submission to him of the peoples of the earth in both the East and the West.

(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 167)

The conduct of Mirza Yahya, who claimed to be the successor of the Báb...

(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 114)

I know this isn't specific, depends how you see 'successor'.

for he longed to take the place of Bahá’u’lláh and, indeed, when formally apprised in Adrianople of Bahá’u’lláh’s claim, made his counter-claim and declared himself to be the bearer of a new revelation.

(Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, p. 34)

In order to communicate this message to Mirza Yahya, Bahá’u’lláh revealed the Suriy-i-Amr (Surih of Command) in His own handwriting and instructed His amanuensis Mirza Aqa Jan to take the Tablet to Mirza Yahya, read it aloud and demand a conclusive reply from him. On being apprised of the contents of the Tablet and the claims of Bahá’u’lláh, Mirza Yahya indicated that he needed some time during which to meditate on the subject. The following day he sent a message to Bahá’u’lláh that he himself had become the recipient of divine Revelation and it was incumbent upon all to obey and follow him.

(Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, p. 120)

The crisis was caused by Mirza Yahya, Bahá’u’lláh’s half-brother, whose covetousness and jealousy of Bahá’u’lláh prompted him to openly challenge Bahá’u’lláh’s authority and to issue his own claim to be the Promised One.

(The Universal House of Justice, Messages 1963 to 1986, p. 113)

Couldn't find it in Dawnbreakers. I think cause that book is mostly about earlier events. Now I'm not sure if you're arguing that it was not actually stated, or that it was originally made up and got passed down in the Baha'i history books. I don't really care how the article puts it, cause like everyone said, there's no academic way to positively prove or disprove it. But it is claimed in Baha'i texts. Cunado19 14:58, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I take it all back :). Having said that, I think it should be important to say that Baha'is believe that, but I'm sure Bayanis don't. It would be quite a damning acknowledgement for them. -- Tomhab 16:27, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I found this image on ru.wikipedia

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%B7%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5:Shrine_of_Bahaullah.jpg

I think it is of the shrine but i'm not sure. Could it be useful?Geni 11:33, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's of the shrine. This is the corner where his body is. The picture usually used is of the door on the left of this picture. The house where he died is in the background. Go ahead and add it. Why are you on the Russian page? (I think it's Russian) Cuñado - Talk 12:05, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I was seeing which wikis the person I protected this page against had been active on.Geni 13:22, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You are diligent. I edited the picture on the top. Might I suggest you just protect the page for awhile? The only edits for awhile have been involving the picture. Cuñado - Talk

there will always be fights over the picture and I don't want to keep this page protected forever so I just keep it on my watchlist and hope for the best.Geni 15:50, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This link represents a biased POV here. The "Baha'i Divisions" ariticle lists membership at one thousand. The "Orthodox Baha'i Faith" article states "Total membership is estimated at up to a few thousand." If this represents say 5,000 at the outside, then this is 0.1%± of the membership of the mainstream Baha'i community, taken here at 5M members. Having a link to this organization on this page makes less sense than linking to the Baha'i Faith on the Jesus Christ bio article. 5M members vs. 2.1B is 0.2% --MARussellPESE 17:37, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]