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Archive 1 Jul 2006 and earlier Archive 2 Archive 3 September 2006 - November 2007

The box style of link is a bad idea, and should not be encouraged here. First, the idea of using a box is apparently promotional, and serves to encourage open wikis over other sites. I see no reason why (for example) {{Databank}} should be any different than {{Wookieepedia box}}. Secondly, the primary use (and the name of CSS style it uses) is for sister sites run by the Wikimedia Foundation. Using this box gives the false impression that external wikis are approved by or affiliated with Wikimedia. Superficial changes such as color don't make it clear that this is an external link. There is the idea that Wikipedia should encourage free content, and it does that by example, not with something resembling a banner ad. --Phirazo 06:07, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I recognize that you dislike them, but they've survived mutliple attempts to delete them, which does indicate an acceptance for their existence. And they seem on track to survive another one. Phil Sandifer (talk) 13:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IMDb links are often in infoboxes, as well as other such links. Usefulness and the nature of a link does have a factor in how we display links. Something to think about. -- Ned Scott 17:26, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's also many ways we can work with this kind of box. For example, this box that I made just now in my sandbox shows how a single box could be used for all wikis (that pass WP:EL) could be used, taking up less space when there is more than one. It also helps to imply that the box is simply noting both wikis that are not related to Wikipedia, as well as making them seem less "important" and more a matter of organization. -- Ned Scott 17:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that a single box is a superior solution, especially with regard to standardizing the look & feel, and it also makes clear that there are third-party wikis, not affiliated with Wikipedia or the WMF. Your example is a good improvement, especially if we can add the right code to allow everything to be done in the call to the template, e.g. {{Third party wiki|Wookiepedia|Tacopedia|Foopedia}}.

Even with the improved presentation & differentiation, I still worry that we're promoting (for lack of a better term) those third-party wikis over other off-Wikipedia content providers. Fly United, the official airline of WIkipedia and all that. Star Trek is a good example: The Trek fanbase have been establishing useful online repositories of information for decades, on LISTSERVs, Usenet, the Web, etc. We like wikis. Is that enoug to elevate their status over other resources? --SSBohio 19:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand that. Though, if a link is useful, then I don't have much of a problem with giving it its own box. We kind of do that with IMDb links in some infoboxes. -- Ned Scott 03:55, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking strictly at the issue of consensus here. To be frank, I'm not particularly exercised about whether the Memory Alpha links look one way or another, although the box format does have more of an advertising feel to it, which is (to me) a problem.

I don't think that the fact that some or all of these boxes have survived TfD necessarily demonstrates consensus to add text to this guideline, especially considering that the addition has been reverted by multiple editors. I think the issue needs to be resolved here first. Would an RFC or third opinion be useful? --SSBohio 17:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Given acceptance for their use, commenting on their acceptability for use in the relevant guideline seems to me straightforward. Phil Sandifer (talk) 18:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can see where you would hold that view, based on the argument you've advanced. Can you see where I hold a different view, based on the argument I've advanced? --SSBohio 19:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but your capacity and right to hold a view does not inherently lend it any status as a correct or useful view. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, that's an assertion equally applicable to your view as mine. Whether you render my view invalid^[1] or merely incorrect and useless, your holding a different view doesn't render it any more valid, correct, or useful than mine. Arguing from specific TfD results to a general policy is no more logical a construction than any other attempt to argue a generality from a specific case, or to argue a precedent from a consequence. My only assertion is that you haven't demonstrated consensus.

Some of your peers disagree that there is a consensus to make this change. Inherent in that is a demonstration of lack of consensus. Multiple editors have reverted your addition to this guideline and you, as the editor wishing to make an addition, have the burden of establishing consensus to change the text of this guideline, not only that other stuff exists. --SSBohio 16:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The templates exist. They are in measurable use. They have survived TfD. This is evidence that they are a part of our external link system. Barring any actual evidence that this section does not accurately describe an aspect of external linking on Wikipedia there is no reason to remove it. Policy and guideline pages are descriptive. As it stands, these are existent. You cannot get them out of the policy page without actually creating a demonstrable lack of consensus for their use. Given their repeated survival at TfD, this does not seem to be present. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:59, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So far, all we have is your statement, which isn't, in itself evidence of anything other than your belief. It serves no useful purpose to overlook your attempts to insert this text into the guideline and only describe our attempts to restore the status quo. It's the inserting editor's responsibility to establish consensus for the change they wish to make if it is disputed. Arguing (without evidence) that this or that example survived TfD does not establish existing policy. It only establishes that those particular templates had no consensus to delete according to the standards of TfD. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You assert the claim that the way you want to change this page has consensus. Your argument, however, is that the templates have consensus to stay. Even if you're right about the templates, you haven't shown that there is consensus to change the text of this page. --SSBohio 18:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but it sure sounds like you're accusing me of lying about the TfDs. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. Looking at my comment in light of what you just wrote, I can see where it looks like I could have been implying that you were lying. I'm sorry; Nothing could be further from the truth. I believe you, but, without knowing what TfDs you're citing as evidence, I can't make my own evaluation of your statement that there's consensus for this change to the guideline. --SSBohio 20:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do not have the links handy - presumably they're linked on the talk pages of the relevant templates - if not you'd have to dig through TfD history for them as they were apparently archived poorly. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. Until you have the links handy, could you give me some examples of templates to check? I gather that FreeContentMeta is one? I'm not above doing a little digging to get at the evidence. Let me know which ones to look at and I'll check them out. --SSBohio 20:42, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 May 31, Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 May 26, Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 May 29 are the three I can quickly find. A similar TfD happened at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 July 16 in which a couple of FCM templates were nominated in with some other templates - I removed the two FCM templates for reasons explained in that TfD, and this did not meet with any protest. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

<scratches head> On this page, I can't find the MOS guidance/convention which states that links of key importance should be bold, even though the page uses that convention itself, nota bene!

I grepped the talk page archives for the word "bold", but couldn't find a relevant discussion on inclusion or removal. Where did that go, and/or what happened and/or where should I be looking?

--Kim Bruning (talk) 20:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What sort of key importance? Some links are bold due to their being menu labels, but I can't think of other examples right now. –Pomte 15:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For instance, in List of Law & Order characters, active cast members are bolded to differentiate from former. This usage is also sometimes used in sports lists to show winners of matches. MKoltnow 16:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It has been stated that this is the best practice. But it doesn't help with fact checking like for links in citations. If the external page goes down, then Internet Archive can be used to find the most recent version regardless of what the date retrieved is. –Pomte 02:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear fellow editors—The idea is to centralise debate and consensus-gathering when there are inconsistencies between the pages.

The most straightforward way is to have MOS-central prevail, and to involve expertise from sub-pages on the talk page there, rather than the fragmentary discourse—more usually the absence of discourse and the continuing inconsistency—that characterises WP's style guideline resources now. If consensus has it that MOS-central should bend to the wording of a sub-page, so be it. But until that occurs in each case that might occasionally arise, there needs to be certainty for WPians, especially in the Featured Article process, where nominators and reviewers are sometimes confused by a left- and right-hand that say different things.

Of course, no one owns MOS-central, and we're all just as important to its running as other editors. I ask for your support and feedback HERE. Tony (talk) 12:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting comments for a new style proposal for wikis listed in the EL section is at Wikipedia:Linking to other wikis. Everyone is encouraged to leave feedback. -- Ned Scott 05:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Should abbreviated units be linked or not within an infobox. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 08:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there anything in the MoS or in WP in regards to a wikiling that directs readers to another section of the same article? Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 05:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm curious as well. I find it annoying -- what do you think of it? CRGreathouse (t | c) 04:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I remember hearing that the MoS said not to, but I couldn't find it when I read through the MoS. I think we ought to make a clear case that it should not be allowed. Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 06:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any examples you have in mind? I'm not sure when someone would want to do that, but it's hard for me to imagine it really being an issue. -- Ned Scott 06:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The issue where someone said the MoS was against wikilinking within an article was a while ago; I've forgotten what the article or problem was. Recently, in the SFO article, someone made a wikilink to the next subsection, arguing it was necessary or readers could get lost, but people can easily scroll if they feel the need to, and there is a table of contents at the top of the page. It also then reaches the point where if people start feeling that wikilinking to locations within the same article is necessary, then it'll be an overabundance of links; a lot of people already over-wikilink as is. Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 17:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have taken the liberty of moving this topic to Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Intuitiveness_and_year_by_subject_pages because of the cross-over with discussions there and that is the more active of the two pages. I hope nobody minds. Lightmouse (talk) 23:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was working on the Ian Stewart article and was surprised by the external link regarding his work on coupled oscillators in the Biography section. I had a feeling that external links were usually inserted as references, and only links within Wikipedia are inserted as inline text (perhaps because the few articles I have been focusing on seem to do that). Is that the convention? If not, are external links distinguished from internal ones in any recommended way, or is it standard style not to distinguish them? DiderotWasRight (talk) 22:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, that's what that little icon I didn't notice after the link is for, right? Duh. DiderotWasRight (talk) 22:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible to add a bracket ] inside a link name (so it does not close the link)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knakts (talk • contribs) 17:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen any comments about which is preferred for a "See also" section—using a piped link to hide the Category namespace name, or not:

• Category:Lists of people
• Lists of people

I think the second item looks cleaner, but it hides the fact that the link is to a category and not a list article as one might think. Is there any MOS guideline for this situation? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:00, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

user:Beeblbrox has proposed to get rid of all red links as a matter of policy. That is directly contrary to Wikipedia policies and the whole spirit of Wikipedia. I was quite shocked to find someone unaware of this. Getting rid of good red links is destructive. Please help this user: user talk:Beeblbrox. Michael Hardy (talk) 04:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well we should modify the policy.. red links means that the article may need to be created. I believe the reason for that specific term is linked is to be created.. although I never write anything on an article with a link to a non-existing article. --staka (T ・C) 00:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Michael Hardy as to the destructiveness of proposals to remove redlinks as policy. It's not even like they are a neutral; red links are an overwhelming net gain for Wikipedia. Ford MF (talk) 13:46, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do language icons such as {{en icon}} have to be before the link or after? The section does not talk about where it needs to be placed. --staka (T ・C) 00:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Normal usage seems to put the language icon at the end of the rendered citation although Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(links)#Non-English-language_sites doesn't make it clear. Some editors, myself included, have used the language icons with inline translations as well, although they don't render particularly well.

e.g. "Piaf's rendition of la Vie en Rose (Template:Fr icon: Life in Pink) still is played regularly on the radio."

I'd appreciate a no-bracket option for this kind of usage.LeadSongDog (talk) 22:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What level of wikifying is expected for a great article. If an article contains a word that is very rare would you expect the article to wikify the word so the reader could understand what it means? If further more the rare word had no article on wikipedia to explain it, what should happen? Should it be redlinked, left without being wikified or something else? SunCreator (talk) 16:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the word is specifically relevant to the topic of the article, then a link makes sense. If the word is simply an ordinary English word that happens to be uncommon, Wikipedia is not a dictionary and diluting links is unhelpful. Note that some "rare" words may not be so rare to many speakers; and that other "common" words might be considered "rare" by a non-native speaker, or by people who don't read books. Also, it is possible that the rare word may be inappropriate in the article, a more common word might be better; "portmanteau" is a good example: somehow this word is inserted all over Wikipedia--and then linked because few readers know what it means, or because whoever added it is goofing off--when the word is not even used accurately and a word like "combination" or "blend" suits the purpose more understandably and accurately: the rare word was in fact bad. —Centrx→talk • 03:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Should text within articles have links to non-articles? An example of what I'm asking about is in Hiroshima#Transportation: "... two are still in operation as of July 2006 ([[:Image:Hiroden-hibakudensya PICT2443.JPG|Hiroden Numbers 651 and 652]])." In the article, the text "Hiroden Numbers 651 and 652" is a link to the image file. The brief discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (links)#Links to categories shows an example of a link to a category, not in running text but in a "See also" section. Does anyone have opinions about when and where links from articles to non-articles are appropriate, or what sorts or purposes are good or bad? Fg2 (talk) 02:37, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seems fine to me as an alternative to putting too many images on the article, while still directing a specific image to a specific portion of the article (rather than a Commons gallery, etc). -- Ned Scott 04:50, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's the rationale behind thoroughly WL every date that appears in an article? I understand why, for example, it would be good to WL Einstein's birth and death dates but I don't know what purpose is served by WL every date that appears in the article about him. The "what links here" feature is almost unusable with indiscriminate linking of dates, more helpful WL become lost articles where every word is a wl, and I find it difficult to believe anybody ever really clicks them. I don't go to an article on Einstein and find myself suddenly curious what events happened to fall on the same day that he visited New York for the first time or his divorce papers became final. We're even wl "retrieved on" dates for external links in article references. This obsessive date linking mystifies me. Professor marginalia (talk) 20:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose is unrelated to linking. It's a formatting tool. Linking the day-date and the year results in displaying the complete date in the format the user sets in his or her preferences. This should probably be a template or some other formatting device, but it's now in a couple of million articles along with other relics of the earliest days of Wikipedia such as the words "move" ("to rename an article") and "stub." Fg2 (talk) 22:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Now I see. It would be better to use a template, and maybe a bot could do the monster clean-up job.Professor marginalia (talk) 15:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for raising this issue, Professor. Full date autoformatting is a different concept from that of linking, but unfortunately was set up technically to use the same coding and display as linking. This is one reason that autoformatting is no longer encouraged (see MOSNUM). The other major reason (apart from a list of other technical inadequacies) is that autoformatting doesn't work for the vast majority of readers, who are not registered users and have not chosen a date "preference". There is an increasing feeling that the differences between the two major formats (and the apparently disliked ISO format) is about as trivial as the US/UK spelling differences that we've learned to manage and accept on WP. The within-article rule applies for date formats, whether autoformatted or not. Note that almost all readers see inconsistencies that are hidden from WP editors by the autoformatting mechanism. TONY (talk) 02:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if this is already part of the policy or a guideline, but I'd like to suggest that, while normally only the first occurance of a term should be wikilinked, sometimes it makes a great deal of sense to subsequently link; and there are a couple of situations where it is common.

One is when you have, for example, a film or TV show. The header might say "Title is a 1928 movie starring Actor and Actress", with the two names wikilinked. However, it seems obvious that it is ideal to also wikilink the actors names in a listing or table of cast, or a subsection on cast, so that links to all of the cast are together. Similarly, an article about a music album might mention specific songs in the lead or history section, but should still include a link in the track list/table. Basically, I would say that it should be noted that even when a term is linked in an article, it should be re-linked when included in a list or table within the article. I give media examples, but it can occur anywhere (a list of cabinet ministers in an article about a state leader, for example).

The second example that I see when there is an article that, in a way, discusses more than one subject (for example, if there is a TV series article that covers more than one revival or version of the show, it makes sense to re-link in the section on the second version/revival, as people may start reading about that section and not realize that the people involved have already been mentioned as associated with the first version (or might start reading only about the 2nd version). TheHYPO (talk) 04:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What you're proposing is, as far as I know, pretty much the common practice already, although I'm not sure whether the change should be made to MOSLINK, WP:CONTEXT, or both.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 20:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's already covered in WP:Manual of Style (links)#Overlinking and underlinking: "this is usually on the first occurrence of the term, although the subsequent linking of an important item distant from its previous occurrence in an article may occasionally be appropriate in a table or in a subsection to which readers may jump directly, either within the article or via a section-link from another article."
There used to be a more encouraging and explicit (albeit awkward) guideline: "Generally, where it is likely that a reader may wish to read about another topic, the reader should not have to hunt for a link elsewhere in the page."
Amalthea^Talk 10:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen a MOS guideline that either permits or discourages interwiki links. I'm specifically thinking of instances where the native language name of something is linked to the article in that language's wiki. For example:

... Munich (München) ...

Should there be a note about interwiki links like that from the main article prose or table text? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 04:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IMO, the German-WP article should be arrived at through the Eng.WP link (via the side-bar). Tony (talk) 10:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Tony. I can't think of an instance where a language interwiki link is appropriate in the prose of an article. In particular I'd find linking the native München in the LEAD of Munich to be very unexpected, and unnecessary. --Amalthea^Talk 10:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the manual of style, I found this:

Keeping possessive apostrophes inside the link, where possible, makes for more readable text and source, though either form is acceptable for possessive forms of links such as George Washington's or George Washington's.

We have discussed such things before (here and here), but I disagree with this solution. It makes things inconsistent. As before, I argue that allowing links such as "William Shatner's toupee" causes a visual ambiguity: are we talking about a person named William Shatner, or a place, like a café, called William Shatner's? Of course, the context resolves the ambiguity, but my eyes still parse "William Shatner's" such that the 's is a part of the noun, which is jarring. I know that before it has been argued that it's similar to how links like [[banana]]s shows up the same as [[bananas]], but in that case the effect of leaving the S outside the link would be more jarring since there is no punctuation to break it up, so I don't think the analogy really works. Considering that, on top of all this, my way is also the easiest one to write in code, I think we should just stick to this rule. If consensus disagrees, we should probably stick to the other rule, because otherwise whether or not the 's appears in the link is significant or not becomes essentially random, which I think is silly.

Also, I remember at one point Wikipedia's software enforced the other rule, such that [[William Shatner]]'s still put the 's inside the link, but this was quickly undone. What was the deal with that? Was there a software problem, or did somebody think it was just a bad idea? - furrykef (Talk at me) 16:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer the first option. "George Washington's" makes it clear that you are going to the article on George Washington. George Washington's could be a pub. As Furrykef says, the context should make it clear, but it shouldn't really need to. We should be fitting wikicode around the writing, not the other way around.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 17:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've commented out some text in the "Overlinking" section regarding "commonly known" nations, etc:

"The names of geographical locations that are likely to be well-known to English-speakers should generally not be linked where, in the context, they are unlikely to be confused with other locations of the same name, and the linked article would not specifically add to readers' understanding of the topic at hand—this includes the names of: countries such as United States, UK, Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, India, Russia, China, Germany, France and Italy, and the associated demonyms; major cities such as New York City, London, Moscow and Paris; the continents and the major oceans and seas; commonly known languages, particularly English; large-scale historical events (World War II); familiar astronomical objects (Earth, Moon, Sun); as well as common "dictionary" words."

It was added back in July, and is being used as justification for the removal of said links, but I see no discussion of it here. I've also seen some opposition to the removal of these links from articles, so... thoughts? --Ckatz^chat_spy 23:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]