Environment B‑class

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Could someone find a source for the statement that some high performance cars emit electromagnetic radiation? I'm doubting the accuracy of this statement. Ednel 23:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

All modern cars emit Electromagnetic radiation (electrical noise or radio noise), from the various electronic gizmos which run them. However most countries require that they must conform to certain standards before they can be sold. I dont have all the numbers in my head but EN 95/54 was one. --Birdav (talk) 21:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's up with the trolley busses picture on the front, plus the tram, train cars? As if those the only types of electric vehicles there are out there. At one time we used to actually have electric cars mass produced riding arround the streets. True story. Let's get some decent pictures for the cover. Alright! --24.85.149.203

Perhaps you are talking about Battery Electric Vehicles? --njh 11:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In attempting to get background information of this topic, i searched for electrice vehicles and got this page. However, it immeadiatly goes into terms and phrases that I have no idea what to do with. Can this page be simplified so that people who do not have much knowledge on this subject can still understand it? I'm looking for information on Electrical Cars, as in the kind that you would buy and drive around in, but I have no idea which one of the types listed that is.

Nuclear-powered aircraft carriers do not have electric propulsion systems and are not "electric vehicles". Water heated in the nuclear reactor produces steam which drives a steam turbine to propel the ship. However nuclear-powered submarines do have electric propulsion. Eregli bob 11:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• point noted & updated Ephebi 12:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The process of obtaining GM's first electric vehicle the EV1 was difficult. The vehicle could not be purchased outright. Instead, General Motors offered a closed-end lease for three years, with no renewal or residual purchase options. The EV1 was only available from specialist Saturn dealerships, and only in California.

Before reviewing leasing options, a potential lessee would be taken through a 'pre-qualification' process in order to learn how the EV1 was different from other vehicles. Next came a waiting list with no scheduled delivery date.

A documentary about the demise of the EV1 and other electric vehicles entitled Who Killed the Electric Car? debuted on June 30, 2006. Several weeks before the debut of the movie, the Smithsonian Institution announced that its EV1 display was being permanently removed and the EV1 car put into storage. GM is a major financial contributor to the museum, and both parties denied that this fact contributed to the removal of the display.

According to the interview with Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner in the June 2006 issue of Motor Trend magazine, the cancellation of the EV1 proggram has been one of the worst decision he has ever made.

Many proponents of EV's believe that even factoring in battery replacement EVs are much cheaper than oil. The barriers to EVs have been political for the past decade, not technological.

I understand the fervency of the contributors to this page, but it needs to adhere to a neutral point of view. The biggest problem is the section about EVs and the auto industry. I think there just needs to be an alternative point of view added in that and other areas. Johnnyb82 03:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with the NPOV concern of Johnnyb82. WP should remain nuetral on such items as to whether the auto companies do or don't support EVs for political/institutional reasons. This is particularly true for a lead topic article such as Electric Vehicles. While the actions of the auto companies with respect to promotion or non-promotion of EV technology might be worthy of a separate article, such non-NPOV material should not be detailed in the main topic article. (And I say this as a long-time EV owner of nearly 20 years and a general supporter of EV technology when it is economically justified.) N2e 22:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, if the NPOV claim is about EVs and AI, lets work out where the problems are:

Most major automakers have attempted to postpone or prevent mass production of electric cars.

Needs some proof I guess.

This stems from their being heavily financially invested in today's dominant power technology, the internal combustion engine.

Believable, but not proven. An alternative claim would be that EVs are constantly being considered, but simply aren't justifiable on theoretical grounds. Toyota's massive prius sales might illustrate this, or disprove it.

At one time during emissions reductions regulations GM produced over 1,100 of their EV1 models, 800 of which were made available through 3-year leases.

fact, easily verified.

Upon the expiration of EV1 leases, GM crushed them.

fact.

The reason for the crushing is not clear, but has variously been attributed to (1) the auto industry's successful challenge to California law requiring zero emission vehicles or (2) a federal regulation requiring GM to produce and maintain spare parts for the few thousands EV1s.

Speculation. Herein lies the problem. Let's say everyone knew they did it for evil reasons, but they wouldn't admit it. How could we write an encyclopedic statement that stated this with NPOV? We do know that they took Cal to court and won, but that doesn't explain why they crushed the existing machines. Do we know which federal reg required spares? Can we get an estimate of the cost of this, compared to crushing the cars outright? (for example, what constitutes a spare?)

--njh 00:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The strange thing is there was NO federal request or requirement for them to be crushed, they simply were, at GM, Ford, Honda's request. There has been and still remains no evidence that this was done for any viable business reason except to eliminate evidence that the cars exist. Otherwise, why would they even DISABLE AND CRIPPLE all of the cars in museums and universities and require the smithsonian to guarntee in writing to never allow theirs (The last remaining intact EV1) never to be driven again!rxdxt 16:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds terrible! Do you have any evidence of this though? --njh 01:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of evidence to the contrary is evidence in itself.

The two reasons I heard of are:

1. Liability and safety concerns
2. Concern for having to maintain the vehicles. (Sounds like a poor excuse.)

Daniel.Cardenas 19:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, as much as I believe companies are evil etc, assuming that they did something for reasons other sound financial reasons is not reasonable in an encyclopedia. Liability and Safety sounds like a perfectly reasonable excuse to me. Lack of evidence to the contrary does not make hearsay true. I could equally say that I have no evidence that you aren't a bad person and that I've heard you jump on children's sandcastles.

Rxdxt claimed that a) no federal request (ok, easily testable), b) rather, crushed by GM etc (testable). c) purpose in crushing cars was to make people not know about them (this is where it gets shakey). Rxdxt then went on to ask a rhetorical question saying that they could think of no other reason why the cars might have been disabled than for an evil conspiracy. Well lets come up with a few:

The battery is known to become highly explosive after a certain number of years, and will explode if used after that point; The Chassis was damaged in transportation of the museum car making it unsafe; driving it may damage it, and being the last drivable model, this would be an act of historical vandalism.

I think that my next point disproves this, but I think that you make a good point. we should elminate any reference to reasons why and simply state what occured, Cars were taken, often against the leasee's will, cars were crushed, no demonstrable reason was ever given for this decision there is only one, now it's gone.rxdxt 05:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You see, we lept off the grounds of testable/verifiable fact and into the clouds of supposition. Assigning motivations to other people is always risky. --njh 23:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I say prove to me that flying apes don't exist. Oh what you don't have any evidence? Then it must be true.

That is why I say lack of evidence (no flying apes) is evidence in itself. Daniel.Cardenas 00:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, saying it makes it neither true nor false. That was my point. Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence, but nor is Absence of Evidence is Evidence of Absence. However, Evidence of Absence and Evidence of Existance are valid. And that is what you need to show. (and are humans not flying apes? - Evidently, you've made the same mistake again.) --njh 01:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree on assigning motivations, would prefer we leave the facts. The cars were removed, sometimes before the end of their lease, against their owners will in almost all cases (90% of owners signed petitions asking GM to allow them to keep them) the cars were shipped to the AZ desert where they were crushed (fact) except a few which were rendered non-working and given to Museum and universities (10 or so). With one exception, which was given to the Smithsonian Institute which INSISTED on getting a fully functional/working one. This car was in the museum in an exhibit sponsored by GM until last week. Wash Post 6/20 rxdxt 05:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it does sound rather fishy. (Though what they hoped to achieve by this isn't clear either, as by seeming fishy it gives more weight to the 'conspiracy' theory and makes more people interested!) In any case, the reality is that the EV1 wasn't the final say in the development of the electric vehicle, and the recent emergence and market success of the hybrids may mean that we are closer now to 'electric vehicles' as private transport than ever before.

Let's focus and try to find an agreeable solution. I moved the NPOV tag to the Automotive Industry part of the article, since that is the focus of this controversy. If there are other possible NPOV statements, let's move them there. The dispute about "Who Killed the Electric Car" is now subject of the film, noteworthy enough for inclusion, so I suggest that we plan to include here a description of the film's allegations. (I'll bet someone will do that on WP). Castellanet 19:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved the old content from Electric vehicles in Battery Electric Vehicles as there was far too much detail and not enough general picture. Electric vehicles has been rewriten mostly from scratch and needs references. njh 13:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This page needs a section on all the early electric cars. They were once more popular than gas cars! Rmhermen 15:18 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I'd be more than willing to add that, but the history of the EV is so long that it deserves another page unto itself. I'm a bit busy right now, but I will get around to it, and eventually, I will move all the info in this article to a new topic entitled "Battery Electric Vehicle", or BEV so I can eventually go in-depth on BEVs without leaving out NEVs, FCEVs, NHEVs, ect. without making everything appear cluttered and what not. I will also get around to covering as many highway capable full-size electric vehicles as possible on these articles. I believe that they deserve a few looks given that the technology for them is here and we should be driving around in them right now. I want to above all, dispell the common EV myths with these articles, and I figured this site gets lots of visitors, so what better way to expose what these cars are capable of than getting the information into a comprehensive set of articles here, and for free at that? I eventually hope to add a lot to this site, as I have a lot of things to add, and the links/ documentation to back the info up. ~terrorist420x

Please add more. But at least a mention of the old cars needs to be here if you put them in another article. Rmhermen 16:34, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Might this help? I believe there was a car manufactured in France in the middle of the 1900's called something like "symetrix," or perhaps "simetrice" that had a motor/generator in each wheel and a tiny gas-powered generator in the rear to charge the battery. As I recall, this car had no brake pedal; when the accelerator was eased back, the wheels generated electricity to help keep the battery charged. I believe this car had a top speed of 35 mph. Details of this car might be found in the archives of Popular Science or Popular Mechanics from the 1950's. Or, hopefully, a knowledgable Frenchman might be able to shed light on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.250.121 (talk) 08:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

D0li0, I don't think Inductrack is completely without energy use, otherwise it would continue to levitate when the vehicle stops. Without looking closely I would guess that the levitation is provided by the diamagnetic repulsion due to eddy currents in the aluminium loops, which obviously get warmed by the current and lose their energy. I'm leaving the line in there because it is very interesting, but perhaps it should make more the point that the propulsion could be provided by something else (say a jet engine). Thanks for your input! njh 08:29, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Humm, it is my impression that it is less lossy than tire rolling resistance, perhaps not so clearly when compaired to traditional rail and wheels low losses? It would be great to have more clarification of the levitation force energy requirements of all three common methods! Till then I feel it's safe to say the the vast majority of power is consumed in overcomming inertia and wind resistance, I'de hate to bring something like a jet engine into the idea for the sake of seperation, we've already got enough gas in our mental veins. Granted the wording could probably be enhanced by removing the word "Free" as it tends to get tied up with "Over-Unity" and such, and we don't want to go there untill the laws of the universe change. --D0li0 11:55, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Honda leased EVs in California, just like GM. Curious, why didn't Honda offer these cars in Germany, the UK, or Japan, countries with high gasoline prices.?

California had a law requiring a small number of non-polluting cars be sold. Rmhermen 19:56, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the film Who Killed The Electric Car they show footage previousy aired on PBS proving that Honda had these cars shredded. rxdxtrxdxt 16:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am curious if anyone has seen any estimates of just how much electricity it would take to run every car currently on the road. I did a quick estimate by finding the annual gasoline consumption for 2003 171 billion (gasoline equivalent) gallons. Multiply that by 135 million joules per gallon, get 2,751,000,000,000,000,000 joules. Divide by three due to the thermal efficiency of gasoline engines, then divide by the number of seconds in a year to convert to average watts. I get roughly 244 Gigawatts. Annual average wattage of all US power plants is only 433 for year 2000. This is a very significant amount of energy, which would require a great number of power plants to be built and transmission capacity to be increased. I have no idea if this is right, in fact I'd be surprised if it was so I didn't include it in the article. But I would love to see a real number because this is an important issue if we ever do convert en-masse to electric vehicles. Another issue is where this electricity will come from. If it comes from coal, electric cars become even worse than gasoline cars, but if it comes from wind (or even nuclear, but thats a whole 'nother topic), its very clean.

First problem is, that You assume a much to high efficiency for the gasoline engine. Driving in the city with constant 35mph halfs the top efficiency. Standing at a traffic light with running engine, the efficiency drops even to 0. So it's more realistic to assume that only 6 kWh mechanic energy is produced by one gallon gasoline. This brings down the calculation from 244 to 117 GW.

The next problem is the air resistance. Todays cars look like aerodynamic, but only as long as You do not look at the cooler standing like a wall in the wind or under the car. Electric cars can have a much lower cw because of this. The Toyota Prius+, a Prius enhanced with 9kWh Lithium battery, uses around 15kWh for 100km.

With such a Plug-in hybrid electric vehicle maybe 75% or 15000km per year in electric mode. That's 2250 kWh per year or 15 square meter good photovoltaic, more in the north, less in the south. A calculation based on 150 million cars like this, the figure is reduced to 37 GW, but 25% remaining to drive with gasoline.

--Pege.founder 11:58, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Infrastructure concerns do need to be considered in all alternatives to our current vehicle energy sources, however, all alternatives face similar difficulties. A hydrogen source of energy would face the same issue. How would the logistics and system costs for all the necessary hydrogen generation, transportation and storage be worked out?

What is needed is grid-intertied photovoltaic roofing, and we need to get with putting it in place ahead of demand. In other words, phase-in the supply of energy as we evolve the vehicle fleet to include a growing, and eventually significant, number of vehicles that recharge while parked for at least part of their energy supply.

For additional information on the viability and economics of vehicles and their energy sources, see the May/April 2006 Mother Earth News (#215). The articles are Drive an EV and Never Buy Gas Again (pg. 32) and The True Costs of Nuclear Power (pg. 146). Of the many problems with generating electricity with nuclear reactors, one problem is generally ignored. Electricity from nuclear reactors is substantially more expensive than electricity generated from other current technologies. Keep in mind that our government has provided federal subsidies of over $150 billion over the past 60 years (30 times more than renewables have received) and electricity from nuclear still costs far more than any other method we use. (Claims otherwise conveniently ignore the construction and decommissioning costs of the plants.) This trend continues. The Energy bill of 2005 contains $14 billion in research, development, construction subsidies and tax-breaks as well as guarantees for unlimited taxpayer-backed loans and insurance protection for new reactors.

The main nuclear plant point to note is: "nowhere in the world do market-driven utilities buy, or private investors finance, new nuclear plants, and that it is only continued massive government intervention that keeps the nuclear option alive."

But, maybe it's also our desire for a energy silver bullet. It's too bad we came to buy the claims after WWII that nuclear promised a wealth of energy in our future. The scientists who made these claims were apparently sadly mistaken.

--Mark Walker 2006.05.27.1941

Nuclear power has been a smashing success. It reliably provides around a fifth of all the electricity the US uses, and has done so very safely. There is no reason it can't provide 100%. The waste heat of the newer high temperature plants could even be used to generate hydrogen. Even the worst nuclear accident in US history, Three Mile Island, killed no one. Coal power, on the other hand, kills many people every year in mining accidents and will have a huge cost if the worst global warming scenarios come true. Wind and solar power should be exploited to the fullest extent possible, but they can't provide more than about 20% of all power due to their intermittent nature. Barring the invention of some new energy storage technology, nuclear is the only real option to replacing coal. Anyone who really believes the worst about global warning should be clamoring for all coal plants to be replaced by nukes. If we as a society turn our backs on nuclear power, we are needlessly resigning ourselves to low-energy future. Last I heard, at least 6 new reactors are planned in the US alone. Basic thermodynamics ensures that nuclear energy will always be a highly competitive energy source. The new European Pressurized Reactor can output 1.6 billion watts at a capacity factor of 92%, equal to over 3600 1.5 megawat wind generators at the industry average 27% capacity factor. And there are a host of new plant designs that integrate the lessons of the last 50 years.

At 5% discount rate nuclear, coal and gas costs are as shown above and wind is around 8 cents. Nuclear costs were highest by far in Japan. Nuclear is comfortably cheaper than coal in seven of ten countries, and cheaper than gas in all but one. At 10% discount rate nuclear ranged 3-5 cents/kWh (except Japan: near 7 cents, and Netherlands), and capital becomes 70% of power cost, instead of the 50% with 5% discount rate. Here, nuclear is again cheaper than coal in eight of twelve countries, and cheaper than gas in all but two. Among the technologies analyzed for the report, the new EPR if built in Germany would deliver power at about 2.38 c/kWh - the lowest cost of any plant in the study.

[1]

The German grid operator, Eon Netz,- one of the world’s largest managers of wind energy, addresses wind’s effective capacity in its 2005 Annual Report as follows: (emphasis added) ( http://www.windaction.org/documents/461):

Wind energy is only able to replace traditional power stations to a limited extent. Their dependence on the prevailing wind conditions means that wind power has a limited load factor even when technically available. It is not possible to guarantee its use for the continual cover of electricity consumption. Consequently, traditional power stations with capacities equal to 90% of the installed wind power capacity must be permanently online in order to guarantee power supply at all times.

http://www.windaction.org/documents/4032

• a lot of the questions around costs of electricity generation come down to the discount rate you use for the cost benefit analysis, which, for fossil & nuclear, relies on major assumptions on the future clean up costs and subsequent impact on future generations. These figures are ultimately arbitrary political decisions. There is another problem with assessing the costs of nuclear, in that the economic models don't work well after 30-50 years, and the societal costs can't be scientifically costed. There already is cheap capacity suitable for overnight charging from the conventional base load generators, these come in on a long-term contracted-in price, but things like windpower and tidal rely on the efficient operation of a spot market because of the variability of their output. Ephebi 09:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't this article cover possible future devlopment of flywheel based vehicles? I don't think there is currently any effort to create these, but shouldn't the ever-increasing capacity be mentioned? BioTube 01:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose to make a seperate page about fairs, events and exhibitions covering electric cars and plug-in hybrid cars.

It's difficult to find real good fairs about this theme.

I for my own visited the EVER Monaco, a real great show about electric vehicles. I received some advertising from the Hannover fair hall 13, where I expected a very similar show. But EVER Monaco and Hannover had been like day and night.

On the EVER Monaco I test drived several different vehicles, discussed about prices and market situation with the exhibitors. Completely differend in Hannover. No prices, no disscussions, no near market vehicles, only hydrogen fuel cells. No arguments how to compete against electric vehicles with new lithium battery technology.

I hope and I can not imagine that the EVER Monaco is world wide the one and only exhibition about this. So please make a new page and list all good fairs, events and exhibitions. --Pege.founder 11:58, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to mention the premier world event about electrically propelled vehicles, check out the Electric Vehicle Symposium (EVS). This years EVS-22 will take place in Japan. EVS22 website LHOON 18:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC) Thanks for correcting the URL, sorry was wrong with it! LHOON 18:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I rearranged and added some images. The EV1 is not really an appropriate lead since it is completely defunct (litterally a museum piece), while electric busses and streetcars are seen in many major cities. - Leonard G. 17:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It needs more rearranging - there are too many images for the amount of text. Rmhermen 21:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

SEVA is a wikibased website that promotes and informs the public about electric vehicles.

Seattle Electric Vehicle Association Electric Bike, Electric Bikes in UK, electric scooters, electric bicycle, electric wheelchairs Category:Alternative propulsion Category:Green vehicles Category:Production Electric vehicles Category:Sustainable technologies Category:Electric vehicles Category:Renewable energy Category:Transportation

• Talk:Seattle Electric Vehicle Association

The Seattle EV Association was formed over 24 years ago by a small group of visionaries dedicated to the proposition that “ If Detroit won’t build affordable electric cars for us, we should do it ourselves.” and help anyone else who would like to do the same. Through public education, demonstration, and proliferation of EVs of all kinds, be they electric cars, trucks, boats, or bikes. We have MONTHLY meetings. For time and place, check our web site, or call our information line.

Essentially the most common EV consists of a small compact (donor) car with stick shift, where all gas or diesel components are taken out, and replaced with batteries, electric motor, charger, relays, speed control, and gauges. The hardware usually costs around $8000. and the labor to put it all together, if one cannot do it ones self is approximately $2000. These are AVERAGES. More speed, more performance, more range…. costs more. Performance of such an average car, would be highway speeds up to 70 mph, and range at more modest speeds of up to 50 miles on a single charge. Might not sound like much, but it could replace HALF of all GAS and Diesel cars which start up their engines each and every day here in King County. And every one would get to work on time, and no one would run short of charge before returning home at night. Charging would cost ONE FIFTH of what the average car owner pays for GAS for the same average daily commute !

Below is a partial list of Web Sites dealing with aspects of Electric Cars in the Northwest, and the US.

ORGANIZATIONS

• Seattle EV Association: http://www.seattleeva.org/
• Electric Auto Association of the US: http://www.eaaev.org
• Oregon Electric Vehicle Association http://www.oeva.org/
• National Electric Drag Racing Assoc. http://www.nedra.com/

EV BUSINESSES

• Electric Vehicles Northwest Inc. http://www.electricbikes.bigstep.com/
• EV Parts of Pt. Townsand http://www.EVParts.com/
• The Electric Boat Company http://www.theelectricboatco.com
• Cloud Electric Vehicles- Kent Wa. http://cloudelectric.com
• The Green Car Company http://www.greencarco.com

OTHER EV RE-Sources

• Alt Fuel Vehicle Directory: http://www.vwc.edu/~gnoe/avd.htm
• EV Discussion List Photo Album http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/

3. The content is distributed via a site which is both well known and independent of the creators, either through an online newspaper or magazine, an online publisher, or an online broadcaster Wikipedia:Notability (web)

You may have seen the Tesla electric sportscar http://www.teslamotors.com

You may have even seen the T-Zero electric sports car http://www.acpropulsion.com/ACP_FAQs/FAQ_cars.htm

These two cars show that it is now possible to build electric cars that can out-accelerate a Ferrari, and go 250 - 350 miles on a single charge. But both these cars are very expensive.

So who else is working on electric cars?

Would you believe China? They have to work on EVs. There won't be enough oil to support China's future economic growth.

I drive an old electric vehicle. I also have friends with electric vehicles. Some of them have recently been able to buy some amazing, cutting-edge EV batteries from China - example:

http://www.everspring.net/product-battery.htm

These batteries are better, and cheaper than the ones in those $100,000+ sportscars above. If you look at the chart, you'll see they are as cheap as lead-acid batteries, and they hold up for 1100 charges, twice as many charges as the other LI-Ion batteries on the chart.

Now, look at this car:

http://www.milesautomotive.com/products_xs200.html

It's a Chinese electric car, which will be imported into the USA next year. The driving range is almost as good as those sports cars above. But it only costs $28500. And that price could get a lot cheaper.

Miles is vaporware for now, and there's a lot of skepticism about their claims. And if ZAP is any measure of the quality of Chinese-built electric cars, I wouldn't hold my breath even if they did pull it off. -- Rei (talk) 19:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]