I like it! Looks much nicer than what we have now. And since it takes up much less space, we can maybe even put in some more campaign/operations articles there as well? At least I liked the compact way you could browse the various campaigns in that template so much that I immediately started to look for what major campaigns were missing ;-). But if we add more operations, the first coloumn will probably be too long. So either we just limit ourselves to the ones listed (we'll can't list every battle specific article, anyway), or we could maybe put the "Specific articles" below the Main Theaters, and let the yearly timeline-listing, with all the Campaigns and battles, have its own coloumn, so we could put in some more of the major ones. But, either way, what you have there is IMO better than what we have now. So I'm all for putting it in the article. Shanes 04:03, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some theathres/Campaigns that we might consider including:

• Battle of the Atlantic (maybe under main theathres)
• Operation Barbarossa
• Battle of Guadalcanal
• Battle of Midway
• Operation August Storm

Specific articles:

• Blitzkrieg

Not sure where to put this one, but the Siege of Leningrad was also a major thing, with 1 million killed.

But, of course, we have to keep the list somewhat short. We can't include every battle. So, I don't know, really, where to stop... Shanes 04:48, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your opinions, Shanes! I am glad you liked the template. I have worked all night on it, and also on the merge of all previous lists (theaters, campaigns, battles, operations etc.) into a single list: List of military engagements of World War II. Due to this I am now quite exhausted, and don't feel clear-thinking enough to respond to your suggestions; I have to sleep first :). In the meantime, you might take a look on the new list (List of military engagements of World War II); even though it is long, it is certainly not complete (don't remember seeing "Operation August Storm" on it). You might also get new ideas for suggestions for this template. Thanks again, Shanes! Always nice to feel appreciated. I also took the liberty of copying your post on the layout here, under "General thoughts on layout". Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 06:17, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. Very nice work, indeed. And the List of military engagements of World War II is very good, too. And I think it makes me change my mind about adding more operations to this article. Your list will do, and is also the more appropriate place to list them all with the link to it here in this template, and then just list the major ones.

But then I instead suggest removing a few of the operations listed now. I sugest removing Operation Bagration, Operation Market Garden and Borneo Campaign as I think they weren't that major to deserve a listing if the template is to be kept short. And maybe drop Warsaw Uprising and Continuation War as well. But I think we should include Battle of the Atlantic under theatres, as it was an important theatre. Regarding August Storm, it was not a minor operation at all, had an important impact on Japan's decision to capitulate, and had long lasting consequences, since Soviet kept much of the territories it conquered in the few days it was at war with Japan. But if the list in this template is to be kept fairly short, I'm fine with leaving it out. You do have it on your longer list, but it's named "Soviet Manchurian Campaign 1945", which is probably a more descriptive name.

I'm btw somewhat skeptical to the term "Atrocities" in the 'Specific articles' section of the listings. It might be me not being a native English speaker and not understanding the word correctly, but to me it seems to be a POV term. Are Strategic Bombings considered atrocities by everyone? And would President Truman have agreed to that the US committed war atrocities when they used the A-bomb? (I know you just copied the term from the WW2 article, so I'm not blaming you or anything). Or maybe the word is perfectly fine, and there's no POV about it. Sometimes I have the wrong understanding of words like that. Shanes 06:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Shanes! I have slept enough now...:) I have considered your suggestions and I agree with you completely. I have thought some more myself too, and these are the changes I have now done to the template:

Removed:

1. Phony War (interesting but not quite a military theatre)
2. Operation Bagration
3. Operation Market Garden
4. Borneo Campaign
5. Continuation War

Added:

1. Battle of the Atlantic (added as theatre - it really was a theatre, as it continued during the entire war, I named link "Atlantic Theatre"; do you think it is ok?)
2. Operation August Storm (added under 1945)
3. Siege of Leningrad (added under 1941, with notation -1944)
4. Blitzkrieg (added to specific articles)
5. Operation Barbarossa (added to 1941 - I think we simply MUST mention this HUGE operation)

Regarding your notes on the term "atrocities" I also am sceptical. As you said I have only copied it from the main article, and this header has been called "atrocities" for as long as I have been a wikipedian (which is not so long, btw). I checked you userpage and saw you are Norwegian; well, I am from Sweden, so we have ourselves a Scandinavian collaboration! I suspect the word "atrocity" sound harsher in our Northern ears. I have checked in Webster's Dictionary for the definition and synonyms, but they were not any better: savage deed, atrocious deed, outrage, horror, villainy, enormity, barbarity, barbarism, brutality, inhumanity, heinousness, savagery. Anyway, I think it is better if we raise the topic of "atrocities" in the main WW2 article - after this message I will post a note on the discussion page. Well, thanks again for you suggestions, Shanes! Feel free to comment on the new template, as always, I appreciate all kinds of opinions. Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 20:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I moved the Siege of Leningrad to the civilian&atrocities section, since I think the 1 million civilians killed was the most important aspect of that one, and in my (and I'm sure, most others) opinion it's also very close to fitting the term "an atrocity" as well.

I'd like to put in a few more articles there. I think we should try to get all the most important ones in here, and then strip the whole list under "Specific articles" in the main WW2 article and only leave a link to List of military engagements of World War II under that heading. I believe that was one of the points with this template. But what to keep and what to remove, is of course debatable.... Shanes 01:09, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This section does not make a lot of sense currently, as it alternates between massive events that contained many atrocities (Holocaust) to a single massacre (Katyn Massacre, which was smaller than many other massacres, like Babi Yar, Paneriai, the Sook Ching Massacre etc.) to an individual unit committing massacres (Unit 731, what about the Einsatzkommando?) to an event of nowhere near the same scale (Japanese American internment), plus a single event with high civilian causualties (Siege of Leningrad). Aside from that, the number of events listed do not match well with the actual numbers of atrocities and impact (see Matthew White's chart). I am going to cut this list down to just a few points, and we can talk about other additions. Unfortunately, this is a war full of atrocities, and it might be best to keep it at as large a level as possible, since the details quickly overwhelm. --Goodoldpolonius2 02:44, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's not easy to pick what to put there. But with the list as you now left it, I'd like to remove Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well. It's already listed under 1945 in the timeline to the left (the only dublicated entry), and it too was what I'd call a single event (if that is to be the measure for what not to have there). And the casualties were lower than many other events now not listed. And why do we list the gulags? Are they really considered part of World War II? I believed they were mostly an internal Soviet atrocity. Prisoners were actually released from the gulags during the war (to be sent to the front)) and the gulags didn't keep any POWs to speak of, they were in other camps. Shanes 03:28, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Works for me. As an explaination, I believe that Gulags were added by a number of Polish contributors, just like the Katyn massacre. They point out that many Poles in captured Eastern Poland were sent to the gulags, the number given in the relevant articles were "thousands". I think we can delete. I will do so. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:37, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Good. Yes, this list (new as it is) was based on the long and rather random list of "Se also:"'s that was tailing the WW2 article before this template came along. And "Se also" lists are very prone to uncontrolled and random additions. I hope and think keeping this template tidy will be easyer. It will probably depend on how easy we make it editable for the random reader, i.e. on whether we add Template:Edit to it. We probably should do that to be "Wiki-friendly". I don't know.

On another note, we should make sure that the most notable stuff we remove from this template (or the old list) is wiki-linked to in the article-text somewhere. That way we stay clear of criticism that we are neglecting major events completely. Shouldn't be too hard, though, if an event was reasonably major a good ww2 article of this size should mention it in the text somewhere. But I haven't checked yet. Shanes 04:05, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]