I notice this article made several bold claims over its origin, including how it was created in Hong Kong. Any evidence to substaintiate this claim?--Huaiwei 18:04, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I wrote the article, and I don't think it's a bold claim at all. You can look at the Chinese wikipedia. zh:絲襪奶茶, Hong Kong tea culture, or Hong Kong's Tourism Board [1]. Both say that the drink originated in Hong Kong. It's also obvious that the drink is a uniquely Hong Kong one that it doesn't share with its neighbors in Macau and Mainland China or the United Kingdom. --Yuje 18:54, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

I would presume the Chinese version is also based on souces like the HK tourism board, and I notice the entire article there simply did not make the bold claim that Hong Kong invented milk tea. Even the so-called HK-styled milk tea can be found in all its complete similarities right here in Singapore (yes, right down to the "silk socks", and no, we simply do not consider it as originating in HK). Meanwhile, which tourism board wont make bold claims for the purpose of marketing?--Huaiwei 19:07, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A programme produced by ATV talked about the milk tea, and they traced back to the shop in Hong Kong where the tea was "invented". Few people can actually tell, for instance, where soccer or badminton was originated from, but that doesn't mean they aren't from that country. — Instantnood 19:34, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

Thats a strange analogy. Ignorance and unsubstantiated/missing information are two hugely different things. Which programme was that, and which shop was it? Which year was it invented? Who invented it? How and why was it invented? If all these crucial information are missing, then in what way is this claim validated, other then some tv programme (which btw is not exactly always a reliable source for encyclopedia content as well)?--Huaiwei 19:46, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The programme talked about all these. (Too bad I didn't jot notes for the sake of editing on Wikipedia while I was watching TV. :-D ) — Instantnood 20:46, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

I didn't claim that Hong Kong invented milk tea, only the variant consumed in Hong Kong, which is different from the kind found in say Thailand. The tourism board has articles on Chinese tea, English tea, and Hong Kong tea so it's not trying to exclude influences from other cultures. AFAIK, the beverage is called Hong Kong style milk tea in Taiwan, US, and Canada as well. I've already provided a source. Do you have an alternative source which claims this type of milk tea was invented elsewhere? --Yuje 19:54, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

There is such a thing called "Singapore noodle" popular in the UK in particular, but the funny thing is Singaporeans dont even know about this dish, nor was it invented here. A HK-opened store in the US is obviously going to refer to it as "HK-style" milk tea, in the same way people actually think Satay is Thai cuisine simply cause they serve it too overseas, so I would be cautious to use this analogy. You claim milk tea served in HK is different from say Thailand, but could you explain the ones served in Singapore? And if you still do not realise how unreliable sources can be when it comes to food, that same page in the HK tourism board claims that Kaya comes from Singapore. Oh is it? That was quite amusing. Meanwhile, I already pointed out your source didnt even insist HK invented milk tea, with only a claim that a "unique" blend of tea leaves was used. So what was this blend? How come in another article here, it insisted the "unique" feature of this tea was the use of those "socks"? If we dont use these socks, it is no longer HK-styled milk tea? If anyone uses it, it becomes one? Heck, I suppose we have to tell the Singaporean public that they have been drinking "HK milk tea" all these while, and not just "milk tea"? ;) --Huaiwei 20:15, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Or should it be renamed as "silk-sock(ed) milk tea"? And one more thing I'd like to make it clear: isn't the milk tea served in Singapore called lie cha (literally "pulling tea")? -- Jerry Crimson Mann 20:23, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lie cha?? Never heard of that! Are you refering to "Teh Terik", which is a Malay version of milk tea and involved pouring the tea between two cups to produce a frothy beverage? If so, no, I am not refering to it, coz its another type of milk tea. :D--Huaiwei 14:20, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I called it HK-style to distinguish it from other types of milk tea, such as bubble tea. This type is generally associated with Hong Kong culture, such as Hong Kong-styled western cuisine, cha-chaan-teng, and dai-pai-dong. The tea blend contains Ceylon tea leaves, but I don't know the exact blend. The type of tea served in Singapore may differ in blend, preparation, or serving style, so don't be so hasty to immediately equate the two beverages.--Yuje 20:46, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

You mean you came up the with beverage name yourself? No wonder I cant seem to find it in google. Hmmm. Says alot on the "dish" if it dosent even have a distinctive name. Well, I would strongly caution against assuming differences in tea served here and in HK, because for all we know, the blend used may be similar. I have to add that not only is the "sock" used, but it is also traditionally served in the same type of cup. The "add more milk", "less sugar", blah blah blah...are the exact same commands used here. Hence, we can already see there is no distinction in terms of the way it is served, and the way it is brewed. The only way you could draw distinction now is with regards to its blend, failing which, the claims made in this page needs to be rewrittern.--Huaiwei 14:20, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The blend actually slightly varies from shop to shop, but I'm no expert and I cannot tell exactly which leaves they use. :-) — Instantnood 21:08, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

I was expecting that. So if the variation served in Singapore is not tt different from the one in HK, then are we talking about the same drink here? BTW, I typed "milk tea Singapore" in google, and I found one page even claiming milk tea is Singapore's national drink! [2]--Huaiwei 14:20, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

First of all, the name already existed as a requested article. I kept the same name for the reasons above when I created the article, and because it seems to be the most commonly used name in English (the silk sock milk tea is never found on menus). I didn't coin the name myself. For example, these two companies market their products as "Hong Kong milk tea". [3] [4] The Singaporean milk tea you listed is indeed different from the HK milk tea, since as mentioned, it is sweetened with sugar. HK milk tea is sweetened with evaporated milk, not sugar. --Yuje 21:18, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

So why do you not name this article "Hong Kong milk tea"? Meanwhile, your comment on Singapore's milk tea is quite humurous. For your information, there are actually two kinds of treated milk often used, namely "Evaporated milk", which is unsweetened, and "Condensed milk", which usually is. In fact, "Evaporated milk" is a subset of "Condensed milk". Whatever their definitions, the "sugar" to sweeten the milk for Singapore's milk tea is from the milk itself, and never by plain sugar, so in what way is this different? You do seem desperate to dig up as many differences as you could? :D--Huaiwei 05:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, Huaiwei, the information I gave is pretty much the same as given in the Chinese wikipedia and in the other articles that I mentioned. Usage varies, between "Hong Kong milk tea" and "Hong Kong-style milk tea". I used the latter name, and someone changed it to "Hong Kong-styled". Here's a publication that uses the latter name. [5] Hete's yet another article which attributes the development of milk tea in Hong Kong to the late Qing period under British colonial rule. [6] I asked you this before, instead of attributing ulterior motives for my explanations, and adopting a confrontational (and unhelpful) attitude to all of my responses, perhaps you could show the basis for why you dispute the factual accuracy of this article, the Chinese wikipedia article, or the Hong Kong tea culture article? Showing an actual information source would be immensely more helpful than any kind of back and forth bickering on the talk page. Can you provide auch a source that offers an altnerative explanation or facts and give suggestions for how you want to reword the parts of the article you are unsatisfactory with? --Yuje 08:59, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

I am not too sure what your level of proficiency with the English language is, but HK-styled milk tea is actually more grammatically correct. I was not the one who did the change thou. :D Anyway, your source does not support or refute anything mentioned so far. I demanded to know how HK could lay claim to inventing its own style of milk tea, when the same style exists in other places probably quite independently from HK. What you could only produce was yet another article talking about its evolution in HK (which in this article merely refers to how HKers took to drinking tea with milk like the way the British did. Oh...so its not really an invention afterall?). I dont think things will get better if I keep doing the same thing with Singapore-related sources. Notice Singaporeans didnt claim that they invented their own version of milk tea, while HK did, so wont you think its your onus to substaintiate that claim, and not the other party? I dont really appreciate this attempt to pass the responsibility on to others, and yeah, now you know why my tone towards you seems "confrontational"?--Huaiwei 14:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"-Style" is more appropriate, to be frank.

• According to Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary: -style (in adjectives) having the type of style mentioned: Italian-style gardens; a buffet-style breakfast.
• According to American heritage Dictionary: -style as a suffix: family-style restaurant; Bordeau-style wine.

In fact I'm the one who moved this page, as I just read an article on the HK Magazine, an English magazine in Hong Kong, and it was using the term "Hong Kong-style milk tea". :-D -- Jerry Crimson Mann 15:17, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whoops! My bad! I need to go back to grammar school. :D Anyway, I see the entire term as a proper noun rather then as an adjective or adverb, hence my believe that "styled" was more appriopriate. But I cant beat a dictionary, so I raise the white flag. ;)--Huaiwei 17:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Join the club: I'd the exact same idea as you 24 hours ago. :-D --Jerry Crimson Mann

lol!--Huaiwei 17:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, HK's milk tea traces back to influence from the colonial period but is obviously different from the British style that influenced it. Again, Huaiwei, do you have an alternate suggestion for how the article should be worded? --Yuje 20:39, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

In fact, the Singaporean have the Singaporean-style milk tea; the Hong Kong people have the Hong Kong-style one; the Macau people have the Macau-style one. There's a strong sense of deja vu when I come across this topic; just like what I have mentioned before, every "standard" food would have myriads of virants, myriads of styles. This applies to milk tea, and curry, and satay to boot. However, I agree with Hueiwai in some points: as milk tea is a "standard" food, presumingly, it's a bit of an oddball to say: Hong Kong people invented milk tea in their own style. It'd better to rephrase the concept, like "Hong Kong people created (a kind of) milk tea in their own style" or "Hong Kong people refined milk tea into their own style/flavour" -- Jerry Crimson Mann 21:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There was, as mentioned above, a TV programme laying a claim which shop started making tea in this way. Whether or not this is true, no evidence has so far been presented in this discussion that something (near-)identical or similar was invented elsewhere. It might be a result of the sense of deja vu, but then to be frank 絲襪奶茶 and 港式奶茶 are the most commonly heard Chinese names in Hong Kong, Guangdong, Beijing, Toronto, etc., and in other Chinese communities. In everyday speech in Hong Kong, it is usually just called 奶茶. — Instantnood 19:08, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

"...most commonly heard Chinese names in Hong Kong, Guangdong, Beijing, Toronto, etc., and in other Chinese communities." Yea, you did make me remember something...:) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 19:26, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

While I was in Hong Kong and Singapore, I have tasted BOTH Hong Kong Style and Singapore Style Milk Tea and they are DIFFERENT. So why question the fact that Hong Kong Style milk tea was invented in Hong Kong? The article is correct by definition. The article did NOT claim that Singapore milk tea was invented in Hong Kong, did it? -- David Chung 19:25, 12 July 2005 (Sydney, Australia)

There are several types of milk tea sold in Singapore (there is no singular drink called "Singapore-styled milk tea), so which one did you consume here before assuming they are all different?--Huaiwei 09:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

From User:Huaiwei's comment I can have come up with a conclusion that a similar or identical variant of tea mentioned in the article is one of the several types of milk tea sold in Singapore. This type of tea is not, however, recognised by Singaporeans (or more accurately, a Singaporean wikipedian named Huaiwei) as originated from Hong Kong. — Instantnood 17:18, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

LOL!!! Do you know any Singaporeans? Mind asking them if they know of any tea sold in Singapore which "originates from HK"? Jesus...--Huaiwei 18:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You claimed above that the kind of tea mentioned in the article is found in Singapore too, and you claimed this kind of tea sold in Singapore is not recognised by Singaporeans as originated from Hong Kong, am I right? Did I miss anything? — Instantnood 20:12, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Could someone add information about when and where in Hong Kong this style of tea originated? Early on in this discussion page, mention was made of an ATV Programme "that talked about the milk tea, and they traced back to the shop in Hong Kong where the tea was 'invented'". I enjoy this tea regularly (both hot and cold versions) and would be interested to know more about its origins.

It was also mentioned that "the so-called HK-styled milk tea can be found in all its complete similarities right here in Singapore." I would like to know where this can be found in Singapore. I have been asked by people from Hong Kong now living in Singapore to send thermoses of the tea to them from Hong Kong because in Singapore, what they have found "is not the same". If someone could provide the location where they could find HK-style(d) milk tea in Singapore, I would like to pass this on. Thanks. Hkgharry 01:57, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This article has been, many times, asserted that this is the "Hong Kong style milk tea". With the distinct historical and geographical background of Hong Kong, it's practically impossible for other places in the world to come up with a style of milk tea exactly the same as the Hong Kong one.

Another fact is, even the style of "English tea" can change when it's brought from England to Wales, so ditto milk tea in Hong Kong (nomatter where it originally came from). Deryck C. 16:46, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your efforts, but again, I am asking that theories and assuptions must be backed-up by evidence before being presented as fact. No one able to tell us the "recipie" even, for instance?--Huaiwei 18:45, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I showed you the hyperlink to the video clipping of the TV programme at talk:national dish#Dim Sum, but you stop responding. — Instantnood 20:12, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Haha ops...actually I dint see that at all. But anyway, I suppose you assume I can understand Cantonese? :D--Huaiwei 13:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You said that was a TV programme that nobody could name, and that's why I showed you the hyperlink. I've never assumed you can understand the programme. — Instantnood 13:42, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Dude, I would strongly advise you to use your brains, if there are still any left. You think anyone would ask for the existance of a evidence just for the sake of it? Assuming this was a court case, you tried to make an accusation that someone is gulty of an crime. When the judge asks you for evidence for your claims, you produce an evidence which the judge cant understand. Can you tell us if this evidence is worth anything then? Seriously, whats your educational level?--Huaiwei 14:08, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cool~ The TV programme was mentioned in the discussion and you assumed that to be a presentation as an evidence. Translation and interpretation is normally available at a court isn't it? A court in a country where there is rule of law has to guarantee fair and equal trial, no matter what language(s) one speaks. :-) — Instantnood 14:26, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Hahaha!!!! If you are now saying the talk on the tv programme was not a piece of evidenence, then are you saying there are basically none all these while (since that tv programme seems to be the only attempt in showing some kind of "documented proof")? If there are no evidence, then how does this advance your POV? Seriously, where is your basic logic? Your argumentative skills are certainly suspect, and I do wonder why I am spending this time and energy talking to someone who seems to display the intellectual abilities of a primary school student. And yes, you rightfully mention the existance of TRANSLATION, the very entity which was lacking, and which prompted my question with regards to my comprehension of the Cantonese language. It took you this long to realise it? So, where is your translation service going to come from? And is this translation service going to be trustworthy and free from bias? If you know how a "fair and equal" justice system works, then please jolly well display some understanding of it, and demonstrate this understanding to us! :D--Huaiwei 15:00, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There's a piece of evidence from the newest volume of the NEXT Magazine, revealing that the unique type of milk tea does originate from a restaurant in Hong Kong. Obviously it coincides with what Instandnood has said, but due to copyrights I'm not going to scan and upload the pages to here. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 14:40, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm...I remember this converstion going this line before, but I did mention some specific things which need to be proven. It is not so much about the fact that this milk tea was conceived somewhere in HK. It has to be shown to be unique, because otherwise, we are going to have conflicting claims to the exact same dish/drink. The lack of uniqueness also suggests the likelihood of external influence which may have proliferated beyond a simple case of "invention in HK and nowhere else, and the extension of this unique drink overseas which dosent conflict with similar drinks elsewhere". I notice this chain of discussion was kindof neglected?--Huaiwei 15:00, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You laid a claim that the kind of tea mentioned in the article is also found in Singapore, and nobody recognised that kind of tea sold in Singapore as orginated from Hong Kong. Mind showing any evidence? Thanks in advance. — Instantnood 15:23, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Evidence? Actually its more like the lack of it. In all my life living in Singapore, I have never seen "Hong Kong-style milk tea" listed on any menu in any food outlet in Singapore, or at least in all those places I have ever been to. If you would like evidence on whether Singaporeans consider "milk tea" as a HK drink, would you trust a report by me if I where to conduct a survey amongst my friends now?--Huaiwei 15:31, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. In fact I'm more interested to know about the evidence for the claim that the tea mentioned in the article is sold in Singapore. Mind telling how it is called by the way? — Instantnood 15:52, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

(response to Huaiwei's comment at 15:00, July 21) Is here a law court? Who's the judge? :-D — Instantnood 15:23, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Oooooo! How cute!! *tickles the chin of instantnood*--Huaiwei 15:31, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

So are you assuming here a law court? Who's the judge? — Instantnood 15:52, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Things're going insane... =.= -- Jerry Crimson Mann 16:08, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say, at this point, one should have at least the courtesy of providing some evidence? Jerry, Instantnood, and myself have already provided several sources, while David has said he's tried both and claimed they're not the same. Also, no other individuals have objected to the wording of the article, either here or on the Chinese Wikipedia.

At this point, I'd say the burden of evidence on me (the original article writer) has been more than met. Couple this with the complete lack of evidence presented on the part of Huaiwei, the sole objector. Early on, I asked for any contrary evidence, only to be refused and asked to substantiate the claim. I have, and others have, and in fact, I can take photos of resturant menus where it's worded exactly as "Hong Kong-style milk tea" and 港式奶茶. Now, if this Singaporean drink really is identical, mind providing us information on it and its origins? And if you dispute the origins of the HK drink, mind providing an alternate source? I'm not against objections or corrections, but I would like to see some at least some actual source instead of one person's hearsay.

Also early on, I asked if Huaiwei had any suggestions for an alternate wording on the article. This was also unanswered, and instead this continues. This offer was never retracted. If you think the article is so wrong, then suggest to us how to fix it.

I really find it strange that a person would object to the existence of Hong Kong-style milk tea when by that person's admission, (s)he has never even seen or tried it before. Looking at the history of edits, it seems that Huaiwei was opposed to Instantnood placing certain Hong Kong entries on National dish, and his opposition to this page is linked with his opposition to milk tea as HK's drink. --Yuje 00:20, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

(clarified last sentence --Yuje 14:48, July 24, 2005 (UTC))

And I find it equally strange, that while peple here get all hot under the collar and suggest that I am opposing to "Instantnood placing Hong Kong entries on National dish", no one seems to notice that I didnt object to Yuanyang (drink) being in that list? Very strange indeed...--Huaiwei 07:26, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I clarified the statement. (See also: Nitpicking) Meanwhile, what about the actual article-related issues I raised? Are you going to address them? Surely that's a better way to improve this article than endless filibustering?--Yuje 14:48, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

The Lie Cha Jerry is referring to is 拉茶. The "lie" is pronounced as in English. Here's what the Chinese wiki has to say about it: 馬來西亞和新加坡有「拉茶」，製作方法與香港奶茶差不多，但中間多一道「拉茶」的工序，是一門很講技巧的手藝。 zh:奶茶 I don't know if that's the Teh Terik. --Yuje 15:30, July 24, 2005 (UTC)