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Archive 1 Jul 2006 and earlier Archive 2 Archive 3 September 2006 - November 2007

The box style of link is a bad idea, and should not be encouraged here. First, the idea of using a box is apparently promotional, and serves to encourage open wikis over other sites. I see no reason why (for example) {{Databank}} should be any different than {{Wookieepedia box}}. Secondly, the primary use (and the name of CSS style it uses) is for sister sites run by the Wikimedia Foundation. Using this box gives the false impression that external wikis are approved by or affiliated with Wikimedia. Superficial changes such as color don't make it clear that this is an external link. There is the idea that Wikipedia should encourage free content, and it does that by example, not with something resembling a banner ad. --Phirazo 06:07, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I recognize that you dislike them, but they've survived mutliple attempts to delete them, which does indicate an acceptance for their existence. And they seem on track to survive another one. Phil Sandifer (talk) 13:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IMDb links are often in infoboxes, as well as other such links. Usefulness and the nature of a link does have a factor in how we display links. Something to think about. -- Ned Scott 17:26, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's also many ways we can work with this kind of box. For example, this box that I made just now in my sandbox shows how a single box could be used for all wikis (that pass WP:EL) could be used, taking up less space when there is more than one. It also helps to imply that the box is simply noting both wikis that are not related to Wikipedia, as well as making them seem less "important" and more a matter of organization. -- Ned Scott 17:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that a single box is a superior solution, especially with regard to standardizing the look & feel, and it also makes clear that there are third-party wikis, not affiliated with Wikipedia or the WMF. Your example is a good improvement, especially if we can add the right code to allow everything to be done in the call to the template, e.g. {{Third party wiki|Wookiepedia|Tacopedia|Foopedia}}.

Even with the improved presentation & differentiation, I still worry that we're promoting (for lack of a better term) those third-party wikis over other off-Wikipedia content providers. Fly United, the official airline of WIkipedia and all that. Star Trek is a good example: The Trek fanbase have been establishing useful online repositories of information for decades, on LISTSERVs, Usenet, the Web, etc. We like wikis. Is that enoug to elevate their status over other resources? --SSBohio 19:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand that. Though, if a link is useful, then I don't have much of a problem with giving it its own box. We kind of do that with IMDb links in some infoboxes. -- Ned Scott 03:55, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking strictly at the issue of consensus here. To be frank, I'm not particularly exercised about whether the Memory Alpha links look one way or another, although the box format does have more of an advertising feel to it, which is (to me) a problem.

I don't think that the fact that some or all of these boxes have survived TfD necessarily demonstrates consensus to add text to this guideline, especially considering that the addition has been reverted by multiple editors. I think the issue needs to be resolved here first. Would an RFC or third opinion be useful? --SSBohio 17:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Given acceptance for their use, commenting on their acceptability for use in the relevant guideline seems to me straightforward. Phil Sandifer (talk) 18:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can see where you would hold that view, based on the argument you've advanced. Can you see where I hold a different view, based on the argument I've advanced? --SSBohio 19:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but your capacity and right to hold a view does not inherently lend it any status as a correct or useful view. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, that's an assertion equally applicable to your view as mine. Whether you render my view invalid^[1] or merely incorrect and useless, your holding a different view doesn't render it any more valid, correct, or useful than mine. Arguing from specific TfD results to a general policy is no more logical a construction than any other attempt to argue a generality from a specific case, or to argue a precedent from a consequence. My only assertion is that you haven't demonstrated consensus.

Some of your peers disagree that there is a consensus to make this change. Inherent in that is a demonstration of lack of consensus. Multiple editors have reverted your addition to this guideline and you, as the editor wishing to make an addition, have the burden of establishing consensus to change the text of this guideline, not only that other stuff exists. --SSBohio 16:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The templates exist. They are in measurable use. They have survived TfD. This is evidence that they are a part of our external link system. Barring any actual evidence that this section does not accurately describe an aspect of external linking on Wikipedia there is no reason to remove it. Policy and guideline pages are descriptive. As it stands, these are existent. You cannot get them out of the policy page without actually creating a demonstrable lack of consensus for their use. Given their repeated survival at TfD, this does not seem to be present. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:59, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So far, all we have is your statement, which isn't, in itself evidence of anything other than your belief. It serves no useful purpose to overlook your attempts to insert this text into the guideline and only describe our attempts to restore the status quo. It's the inserting editor's responsibility to establish consensus for the change they wish to make if it is disputed. Arguing (without evidence) that this or that example survived TfD does not establish existing policy. It only establishes that those particular templates had no consensus to delete according to the standards of TfD. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You assert the claim that the way you want to change this page has consensus. Your argument, however, is that the templates have consensus to stay. Even if you're right about the templates, you haven't shown that there is consensus to change the text of this page. --SSBohio 18:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but it sure sounds like you're accusing me of lying about the TfDs. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. Looking at my comment in light of what you just wrote, I can see where it looks like I could have been implying that you were lying. I'm sorry; Nothing could be further from the truth. I believe you, but, without knowing what TfDs you're citing as evidence, I can't make my own evaluation of your statement that there's consensus for this change to the guideline. --SSBohio 20:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do not have the links handy - presumably they're linked on the talk pages of the relevant templates - if not you'd have to dig through TfD history for them as they were apparently archived poorly. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. Until you have the links handy, could you give me some examples of templates to check? I gather that FreeContentMeta is one? I'm not above doing a little digging to get at the evidence. Let me know which ones to look at and I'll check them out. --SSBohio 20:42, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 May 31, Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 May 26, Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 May 29 are the three I can quickly find. A similar TfD happened at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 July 16 in which a couple of FCM templates were nominated in with some other templates - I removed the two FCM templates for reasons explained in that TfD, and this did not meet with any protest. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

<scratches head> On this page, I can't find the MOS guidance/convention which states that links of key importance should be bold, even though the page uses that convention itself, nota bene!

I grepped the talk page archives for the word "bold", but couldn't find a relevant discussion on inclusion or removal. Where did that go, and/or what happened and/or where should I be looking?

--Kim Bruning (talk) 20:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What sort of key importance? Some links are bold due to their being menu labels, but I can't think of other examples right now. –Pomte 15:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For instance, in List of Law & Order characters, active cast members are bolded to differentiate from former. This usage is also sometimes used in sports lists to show winners of matches. MKoltnow 16:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It has been stated that this is the best practice. But it doesn't help with fact checking like for links in citations. If the external page goes down, then Internet Archive can be used to find the most recent version regardless of what the date retrieved is. –Pomte 02:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear fellow editors—The idea is to centralise debate and consensus-gathering when there are inconsistencies between the pages.

The most straightforward way is to have MOS-central prevail, and to involve expertise from sub-pages on the talk page there, rather than the fragmentary discourse—more usually the absence of discourse and the continuing inconsistency—that characterises WP's style guideline resources now. If consensus has it that MOS-central should bend to the wording of a sub-page, so be it. But until that occurs in each case that might occasionally arise, there needs to be certainty for WPians, especially in the Featured Article process, where nominators and reviewers are sometimes confused by a left- and right-hand that say different things.

Of course, no one owns MOS-central, and we're all just as important to its running as other editors. I ask for your support and feedback HERE. Tony (talk) 12:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]