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Talk:Christ myth theory/Archive 21: Difference between revisions

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NPOV: "fringy" is right
"Fringy": comment
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:"Fringy" is an appropriate characterization of this theory/hypothesis/idea. It has no significant support within academia. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 22:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
:"Fringy" is an appropriate characterization of this theory/hypothesis/idea. It has no significant support within academia. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 22:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
::I agree. This is not to say that there is not sufficient cause for the content to exist. However, if I remember right, and I think I do, [[Titus]] is believed to have destroyed a number of documents when he sacked Jerusalem. That could reasonably be in and of itself sufficient cause for the lack of existing contemporaneous documents which would verify the existence of Jesus. Look at how little documentation survives about [[Pontius Pilate]], of the same era, and ''he'' was one of the most important, and probably written-about, people in Jerusalem at that time. And, for that matter, the complete and utter lack of any evidence of even the existence of [[Pontius Pilate's wife]], although being a Roman government official he almost certainly had one. The lack of documentation of all individuals of this era isn't sufficient cause to indicate they never existed, and the same standard should be applied to Jesus. [[User:Warlordjohncarter|John Carter]] 14:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:09, 1 August 2007

Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 30 July 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep.

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Archive
Archives
  • Archive 1: To March 26, 2006,
  • Archive 2: To April 30, 2006.
  • Archive 3: Material removed by SOPHIA & Wesley (April 29, 2006), and comments.
  • Archive 4: To May 31, 2006.
  • Archive 5: Material removed by AJA, May 1, 2006, and comments.
  • Archive 6: Lots of material
  • Archive 7: Jan-May 2007, conversations leading up to the split

scope!

please! who keeps sneaking the historicity discussion back in? The topic of this article is mythography, not quibbles about historicity. We have a full article, historicity of Jesus, dedicated to the question. The topic of this article is comparative mythography, which I dare say is complicated enough. Why is it so difficult to recognize that these are two completely separate issues? Serious study of "Jesus as a myth" (other than fringy conspiracy theories) will grant with a shrug that there was historically a wandering rabbi Yeshua (4 BC - AD 34 or so) who got himself crucified by the Romans and initiated an eccentric eschatological cult among his followers. It will simply argue that this is nowhere as interesting as the mythological cargo that accreted to the movement over the following millennium. What this article should study is these (1st to 20th century) accretions, not silly bickering about historicity and authorship of the gospel, we really have historicity of Jesus for that. dab (𒁳) 11:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem with this approach is that it there really are two possibilities:
  1. A person got mythological "cargo" attached to them
  2. A belief developed that at some point in the past a mythological being had actually acted in history
This article started as a discussion of those scholars who consider Jesus a purely mythological being. That's why for example I linked the mythicist page here comfortably. You are redefining the purpose of the page. Perhaps a "comparative mythography" which has a Golden Bough type slant makes sense.
Say for example that we were trying to write an article about the comparative mythography of Mickey Mouse as contrasted with Bugs Bunny yet millions believed that Mickey Mouse was a real historical personage in a way entirely different than Bugs Bunny. We'd have to address those points. jbolden1517Talk 14:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
yes, I realize this is a problem. Hence the "split" suggestion. "Jesus as myth" is ambiguous. It might mean, in the popular meaning of "myth", "Jesus is 'only' a myth", or, in the mythologist or academic meaning of "myth" it might mean, "let's look at the mythemes surrounding Jesus". I feel strongly that the latter deserves a detailed discussion, and I also feel that this discussion is more interesting. The "Jesus-myth" popular literature is basically a product of a hazy understanding of the nature of myth. It exists, it should be covered, but it should not interfere with a serious coverage of "Jesus mythography".
Mickey Mouse is not a good simile, since any claim of a historical Mickey Mouse would be ridiculous. Consider, rather, King Arthur. There can be very little doubt that King Arthur is ultimately based on one or several Dark Age British warlords. And yet what makes King Arthur King Arthur is the accretion of High Medieval legend; if you go back to the historical nucleus, you'll just have a 5th century warlord like any other. And yet it would be completely mistaken to argue that "King Arthur is a myth, hence he cannot be historical", because a myth is something that grows out of history. Yet, it is conceivable that some people hold a quasi-religious belief that Arthur was indeed the "once and future king" that drove the Saxons from this green and pleasant land in the 460s. It is simliar with Jesus. Most secular historians will conclude that if you go back to the historical Jesus, you'll have a wandering rabbi like so many others who got caught up in the "Iudea resistance movement", and it was only the somewhat crazy propaganda of the 1st and 2nd century that merged him with Neoplatonic mysticism and ultimately turned him into "Jesus Christ" as we know him. Add midrash and various folk traditions and you get the classic "dead-and-risen god" myth we are looking at now. But this is completely different from saying "he is purely mythical".
So, how shall we proceed? I do agree that there may well be a separate article called Jesus-myth or Jesus-Myth theory or similar that argues the non-historicity of Jesus based on the exposition of mythemes treated in an article Jesus Christ as myth or mythological aspects of Jesus Christ. My point is that it is only one of several possible conclusions based on the mythographical approach, and exposition of the mythological parallels shold not be unduly conflated with claims of non-historicity. Incidentially, I propose a move of this page to Jesus Christ as myth, because the "Christ" part is essential to the myth. You could even say that "Jesus" stands for the historical bits, and "Christ" for the mythical bits, and that "Jesus Christ" can only be fully understood by studying both. "Jesus-myth" otoh, I agree, is flavoured with the fringy "he's only a myth" proponents. dab (𒁳) 09:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I certainly agree the first view deserves discussion. It absolutely is the way the mainstream phrases things. I also happen to think there is a lot to say on that issue of myth accretion. If you agree with this decomposition I can rewrite the introduction to present the article in this framework (perhaps eventually splitting pieces off, since I agree that's likely). BTW I understand completely the secular myth accretion view (EP Sandars, Myers, Jesus Seminar... ) which is all essentially Bultmann, I acknowledge that Bultmann's demythologizing program worked and in 2006 people still do speak of the real historical Mickey Mouse (Jesus) behind the legend.

BTW Mickey Mouse was quite deliberate. I have no problem believing that there was a real King Arthur that the legends are based on and the article you want to write would far better fit Arthur. What I think is completely lacking from the mainstream view is any explanation of the documentary record we actually have. The first century record is not describing a rabbi it is describing a supernatural being, merged with the very word of god, that preexisted the universe and engaged in activities which transformed the very nature of reality. The second century record has a person running around performing petty miracles and teaching a semi-Jewish version of cynical philosophy. The second century guy may very well have been based on some collection of actual people (I personally think Q2 is all the teachings of John the Baptist and I do believe he is real). But so what? Those guys were never worshipped at all, and as far as I can tell had no meaningful influence at any point in history. There was a SteamBoat Bill Jr that Steamboat Willie was based on. But I don't speak of the "the real historical Mickey Mouse". SteamBoat Bill Jr. was a minor historical character who Buster Keyton liked enough that 1920's audiences were familiar with him so Walt Disney could ..... He isn't spoken of as the real Mickey Mouse.

So no I don't want to go for Sander's Jesus of history vs. Christ of legend because it assumes the 2nd POV. IMHO I think the issue of one of phrasing much more than one of disagreeing on the facts and what is needed is

  1. An agreement that what is being disagreed with is terminology
  2. A way of writing about it that doesn't sound like an essay.

jbolden1517Talk 10:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

  • alright -- I have attempted the split now. For better or worse Jesus-myth is now the article where we discuss the hypothesis that Jesus is a fiction or forgery of Gnostic mythology. Jesus Christ as myth discusses comparative mythology. We can argue about titling, but I really believe these are topics that require separate articles, each featuring a summary section of the other.
  • your 2nd century "petty miracle worker" is indeed a good summary of the (early) accretion process and certainly does have a place here.
  • your reference to the 1st century account of "a supernatural being, merged with the very word of god" may need to be unravelled between John (not-quite 1st century) and the synopticists, but it is certainly the core doctrine of the sect after Pentecoste. But it certainly also includes a lot of petty miracles, what with Luke's nativity, cursing of a fig tree or turning water into wine. Historical Jesus needs to return to a contemporary understanding of this mythology, unclouded by later Christian dogma. Lapide argues that what you get is very much a rabbi, your typical Hasidean "holy man", perfectly dedicated to orthodox Jewish law; his 'cult' not very different from contemporary, very much alive figures like Vissarion or Sathya Sai Baba: you can see in these cases that a whole mythology can spring up around a charismatic leader before he is even dead. The leader is "real" (historical), but the mythology (as mythology) is just as real. And just because a few dozen million people(!) believe from first hand experience(!) that Sathya Sai Baba can work miracles doesn't make it a fact to put in history books. dab (𒁳) 11:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

OK I'm agreeing with the idea and the style of the split. I think that makes sense. It also allows both articles to be more naturally written because they can take an "in universe" view. So the myth article can assume there was a real person accumulating myths not a fictional person accumulating an incarnation (and just mention the other view) Conversely the mythic article can discuss the various people's positions without all the disclaimers. So (assuming everyone else agrees) good so far. Now the next issue I have is regarding who gets what. My feeling is this article started as a discussion of Doherty Wells... it has 3 years of history on that topic. For example here is the article at the end of 2005. You can see where the focus is. All other things being equal I don't think its a good idea to break continuity. I'd go for a flip of sorts from your division. The Sanders stuff goes in "historical Jesus" the mythical accretion stuff goes in a new article and this article remains focused on discussion of the belief that Jesus is fictional. Alternately we do a page move (to preserve history) of this existing page to something like "Jesus Christ (modern Docetism. I'd like broad input on this one from anybody watching this page. I think we need a consensus before we act this abruptly. Finally on the point of which view is actually correct I'm going to fork that off jbolden1517Talk 13:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC) jbolden1517Talk 13:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure I follow you now. If I understand correclty, you are mainly talking about edit history now, i.e. which of the two articles gets to keep the longer edit history. This is a problem at every split. I agree you could argue I should have done the move to Jesus Christ as myth by copy-paste, and the move to Jesus-myth hypothesis by move button, not vice versa. I admit I didn't ponder much about this, since infallibly one article will get a truncated history. As long as we can agree on the page content, I don't think the question of where to keep the deeper edit history matters very much. Also, I do not consider this a pov fork. We do not have one page that assumes a historical Jesus, and one that doesn't. This page considers mythological parallels, and is agnostic about (not interested in) the question of historicity. The Jesus-myth hypothesis is all about historicity, and should refer to this page for a detailed discussion of comparative mythology. dab (𒁳) 07:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
If that's the case I'm going to move history to the other one. Agreed? jbolden1517Talk 09:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
if you like. I take it you want to move things around so that the current titling remains unchanged, but the 2005 history will be that of Jesus-myth hypothesis? I've no problem with that. dab (𒁳) 11:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

In THREE DAYS, without consensus from any number of editors, someone takes it upon themselves to screw up these articles? Who gave you permission? Did you maybe think to look back in the edits to see if a couple of us are around to discuss this travesty???? I cannot believe this BS. Orangemarlin 06:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I've stated my concerns back in February [1], and the article remained plastered with merge and cleanup tags since then. I've cleaned it up. Glad to be of service. No content was lost (except some unsourced claims, I think), but we have untangled the discussion of mythology, and that of "forgery". The article kept falling prey to the naive idea that "myth" means "unhistorical". It kept implying that "mythical Jesus" is a position somehow opposed to Christianity, a patently false claim, as is well referenced in Jesus Christ as myth now, there are notable positions within Christianity that embrace the Christ narrative as myth. You are now free to make whatever point you like regarding "fake Jesus" theories without descending into comparative mythology, or you can make any point you like regarding comparative mythology without constant conflation with "fake Jesus" conspiracy theories. Two topics, two articles. dab (𒁳) 07:24, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I am going to check if and which rules were violated in this blatant attack on the article without consensus, especially of editors like myself who have spent a lot of time on this article. In no way do I own it, but I feel that the right thing to do is to gain consensus. If necessary, I am going to ask for intervention from admins to this situation. This is despicable behavior on two, yes two editors part. What is this place, a fascist organization where two editors can dictate what the rest may or may not want? If I have no rights to revert this abomination, then so be it. Orangemarlin 17:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Likely vio is POV Fork.
Dab, do you really think you cleaned it up? •Jim62sch• 19:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Post move discussion

Surely the input from grown-ups with full time jobs is valued at Wikipedia? In which case why has such a drastic change been made in such a short space of time? Will the people who did this please undo the mess, read the Christian Mythology page and explain why they have not expanded that article rather than mess with this one. I agree this article needs work but everytime we start we get all the bagage from the "It's all true and you're morons" brigade and we spend weeks going round in circles (I do AGF but see the archives for the number of times we have been called loonies for not accepting the bible version as completely plausible). This is not concensus - it's railroading. Sophia 13:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Sophia, good to see you back here. OK lets get started. If you read from the above the article had a deep structural flaw. It is very difficult and confusing to present Jesus mythical material simultaneously from the 2 POVs:

  • A person got mythological "cargo" attached to them
  • A belief developed that at some point in the past a mythological being had actually acted in history

No one (AFAIK) here is arguing for the biblical view or religious view at all. However it is possible to discuss mythological aspects of Jesus without addressing historicity at all. Thus we have 2 pages:

  1. focuses on mainstream mythological aspects. That is stay within mainstream scholarship (Golden Bough type stuff)
  2. focus on the Doherty / Wells camp. This may also begin to develop in a neoplatonic / gnostic direction

As for Christian Mythology that article by and large address mythology that developed within a Christian context (like Dante) it doesn't address the topic of either article that occurred within a Roman pre Christian context. Anyway you all had stopped discussing anything during the month of May. If you want to come back I'd love input. I want to write an article with real depth on Doherty, Wells, Docetism etc... Finally cut the "grown up" crap. I'm likely older than you. jbolden1517Talk 13:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Jesus Christ as myth is a subsection of Christian Mythology - read the intro of that page. The problem with this split is that this subject is not that clean and easy to divide - most theories are an amalgamation of of threads. Some dispute the total historicity and others say it is irrelevant as it's impossible to prove Jesus didn't exist. Anyway I don't have time for this as I have a major project to complete. I think this split is a POV based mistake (unintentionally I'm sure but the net result is the same) which I do not agree with but do not have time to argue. Sophia 14:01, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
"Jesus Christ as myth is a subsection of Christian Mythology - read the intro of that page." No it isn't, nor - from a quick glance - has it been for months. Don't you think you should check before making such assertions? I'm agnostic about the move, but it's not POV in any meaningful sense. Paul B 14:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
"Christian mythology can also be taken to refer to the entire mythos surrounding the Christian religion, including interpretations of the various narratives of both the Old and New Testaments." - taken from the Christian Mythology article intro. Since the only details we have of Jesus' life come from the early Chrsitan writings, the writings of Paul and the New Testament, and some of the proposed mythological aspects are identified as OT prophecy fulfilments I struggle to see how this should be separate article. I did check. Sophia 14:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
There is no such subsection as you wrongly claimed there was. The passage you quote makes no reference at all to Jesus, but is nothing more than a vague generality about the Bible as a whole, so I'm not sure what you are trying to suggest. You may as well claim that there should be no separate articles debating the mythological aspects of the Book of Esther, Tobit or Book of Daniel. Paul B 14:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
We are talking at cross purposes as my post was not particularly clear (although a GF reading of it may have helped). I am arguing that it should be a subsection as it deals with the mythology of a man regarded as Christ. Also the names of the articles themselves are POV - why does this one have "hypothesis" tacked on it and the other doesn't? Why do we need to create an article to avoid having to discuss the historicity aspects of Jesus when these are often discussed within the mythological theories.? To split them between "does think he existed" and "doesn't think he existed" is going to be difficult and arbitrary and I can see no advantage of doing it. It also smacks of OR as I have always seen these theories treated as a whole. Sophia 15:01, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I have always seen these theories treated as a whole That's actually the first real objection of substance so I'll address it. So my question is by whom?

Mainstream scholarship (life of Jesus) asserts that Jesus was some combination of: preacher, teacher, guru, anti roman activist, Pharisee, Essene ... running around the 1st century who very quickly had stronger and stronger claims of divinity made about him. The Jesus myth people like Wells, to Doherty to Acharya S argue that nothing particularly interesting actually happened in 1st century palestine, that the claims of divinity predate any person. That is not a minor difference, and for this reason their works are treated as simply outside the mainstream and their scholarship is by and large rejected. People who do work on gnosticism and neoplatonism (like Pagels) dance around the issue of the incarnation not really taking a position. So who is treating their works as a unified whole? jbolden1517Talk 15:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

what does it even mean to say that "the claims of divinity predate any person"? Of course they do, they're in Isaiah etc. The historical guru-activist filled the Messiah's boots, but the boots were there way before him. I mean, even a Biblical literalist would agree to that, that's the whole point of fulfilling a prophecy. The Jesus myth people need to claim that there never even was such a guru-activist: even the guru-activist part is made up. That's difficult to believe, since we happen to know of a whole bunch of similar guru-activists, and if they had decided they needed one at some point in AD 50, there is no reason why they should not have picked one of those rather than rolling their own fictitious one. I fail to see how the splitting off of Jesus Christ as myth can be construed as "POV". All it does is isolate material pertinent to both this article and Christian mythology in its own sub-article. Where is the "mess"? We have cleaned up a long-standing, and long-tagged, conflation of issues. You have now your own dedicated article for treating theories that argue "there is myth in the narrative, hence it cannot be historical". That there is myth in the gospel is completely undisputed, and I see no reason to conflate discussion of undisputed fact with an idiosyncratic interpretation of the facts. Even Justin Martyr in the 2nd century could see the myth of Dionysus and Christ are practically identical, for chrissake. But, not wholly unexpectedly, that fact did not inspire him to formulate a "Jesus myth" theory. dab (𒁳) 16:12, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Its not helpful to respond to several people making opposite points at the same time. Anyway the issue of myth is a very simple question. When Paul is talking about dead to adam and reborn in Jesus Christ is he thinking of someone who still has smelly shoes lieing in Mary's closet, along with some of his carpenter tools? Does Peter actually remember the time Jesus cut his hand on a fishing net? Did Jesus and Matthew have conversations about the right way to deduct all those loaves of bread and fishes his annual tax form? That's what the mainstream position is essentially arguing. jbolden1517Talk 16:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

that's right. we have three positions, (a) "true myth", (b) historical nucleus plus myth accretion, and (c) complete forgery or daydream. If you like, (a) is the "pious fringe" and (c) the "sceptical fringe" (the Jesus-mythers) of a sliding scale of (b), and mainstream opinion is somewhere in mid-(b). We can certainly have an article about (c) in particular, but it will not do to pretend that (c) is in fact the same as the premise to all of (a), (b) and (c). dab (𒁳) 16:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
(edit clash) Pagels dances around the edges because a definitive "did or didn't exist" is not relevant or possible to prove. So where would Pagels fit in your scheme? John Allegro was also somewhat ambivalent as to the existence of "Jesus" (as opposed to a teacher of righteousness) living at that time, as again, you cannot prove a negative so where will he go?. Where will Thompson sit? As to nothing interesting happening then, Allegro in particular points to the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem as a powerful driver for a much need Messiah. The common thread is that some or all aspects of Jesus as recounted in the Christian writings are mythological. "Some" is accepted as mainstream and "all" is considered the lunatic fringe. The acceptance of the ones in between depends on who is offended by them. Some links [2][3][4] that do lump them together but I haven't got time for any more at the moment - sorry.
Also at the moment we have an article that opens with an OR analogy which is scary if that is the standard to which this article will be reworked. I have argued for a long time that the obsession with the black and white stance on the historical Jesus is a Christian POV as it is an easy point to dispute - you cannot prove Jesus did not exist - hence the ambivalence of pagels/allegro/thompson etc. Not quite sure what you are driving at with the "now you have your own dedicated article" - smacks of "go off and play somewhere else". Sophia 16:53, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree the Mickey Mouse thing is OR and may need to go.
you seem to imply a (false) dichotomy between "historical" and "mythological". You should properly say that some of the aspects of Jesus that receive mythological significance may be historical, while others are not. There is no contradiction between an event being historical, and its receiving a mythological significance in later tradition. If we reduce "Jesus-myth" to saying that "nothing interesting" may be recovered of the historical Jesus, or "another teacher of righteousness of the same name", this becomes not a claim but a subjective opinion. I did not tell you to "go off and play somewhere else", incidentially. I took the material that didn't belong here and took it somewhere else. You are still welcome to play Jesus-myth at this article as always. dab (𒁳) 17:03, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree there is a false dichotomy - and the current article split exaserbates the problem by forcing us to choose which theory/author/book to put in which article. Sophia 18:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Mickey Mouse

I'd like to split off the Mickey Mouse metaphor discussion. I don't think its original research since its a metaphor not an actual fact (and the facts underlying the metaphor) are cited. However, it is somewhat non encyclopedic in tone. Does anyone have a suggestion for a better phrasing which captures the idea as quickly for the intro? jbolden1517Talk 17:11, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

It's unencyclopedic and OR. You cannot make that analogy - you can only quote those that do (and I've never seen it used before). Sophia 18:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that language is covered by OR (and I'll freely state that the metaphor is mine). But we aren't at WP:OR. Everyone agrees on replacing the language so, there is nothing to debate... What's your suggestion? jbolden1517Talk 19:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

You personally are drawing a metaphor that is your interpretation of the scope of the debate - what isn't OR about it. As for alternatives - I can't get my head around what point you are trying to make with the article split so can add nothing. None of the reading I have done supports this arbitrary division of theories. Sophia 19:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Jbolden: Whether "everyone" agrees on replacing the language or not is irrelevant. The point that it violates WP:OR remains valid.
Sophia's point re the split article is quite accurate. Of course, you (as the splitter) will no doubt dispute her argument. I'll be damned if I can fathom the "logic" you use. •Jim62sch• 20:09, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think analogies are OR, but this one is a problem because of the tone rather than the point. The splitter was user:dbachmann. Paul B 08:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

methodology

I'd like to propose that the entire pro and con counter argument section be reconstructed as a methodology section. Essentially I think the article should take the slant that the issue is one of methodology and terminology not a disagreement (too much) on fact. jbolden1517Talk 14:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Could you explain why you are placing so many passages in italics? Paul B 18:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Quick way to mark what's a quote from what is being written in wikipedia's voice. I could use blockquote to mix it up a bit. Feel free to change style if you have a better way. I'm not married to the style at all. jbolden1517Talk 18:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
It's very confusing - one whole section is in italics. Paul B 18:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

That whole section won't be in italics for long. I just started it and the first things was a good quote. The section right above it started the same way. jbolden1517Talk 18:30, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I'm not sure what you are doing. There are great chunks of text that appear in italics, but they are not clearly attrivuted, so I've no idea who they are quotaions from. Paul B 18:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Hopefully its clearer now that I got a chance to add more material. You OK with the direction? 13:30, 28 May 2007 (UTC)~

As opposed to meaningless?

"meaningful historicity of Jesus" is gibberish. •Jim62sch• 20:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Not really. The point is that there may have been - say - some very strong bloke whose deeds were the kernel for the legend of Hercules, but there comes a point when there is no meaningful differece between a purely fictional figure and one whose legend is built on so slender and unexceptional grounds that it might just as well have been pure fiction. Paul B 21:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

focus on gospels vs. focus on epistles

TJ -- If you look at the chart below, you can see where This contrasts with the mainstream approach which holds that since Jesus is the "founder" of Christianity an understanding of early Christianity requires one to focus attention on the gospels even though dating is far less certain was going. I think the reader needs to understand this point. That is why Sanders, Vermes... arrive at different conclusions. Could you rewrite this in a way you would find acceptable. jbolden1517Talk 14:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

NPOV and OR tags

This article requires significant upgrades. Three editors nave taken upon themselves to destroy the original Jesus as Myth article, and put together this POV travesty. Comparing the myths to Steamboat Willie and Mickey Mouse is an underhanded method to destroy the hypothesis. This is ridiculous. Orangemarlin 15:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

That's not the comparison being made. I suggest you stop throwing a temper tantrum about the split and just read what's been written. jbolden1517Talk 16:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
indeed. It doesn't appear you have read either the articles, nor the discussion above. The Mickey Mouse simile may be OR, but it is OR in support of the theory, so it really doesn't figure how you could say it is being used to "destroy the hypothesis". Unless, of course, you haven't understood it. Once you are at it (reading and trying to follow the debate), you could explain what gave you the impression of a "POV travesty". I am unsure even in what direction our alleged POV would be tending. I am really at a loss if I am being accused of pro-Jesus or anti-Jesus (pro-historicity or anti-historicity) bias, since I am really perfectly agnostic on the matter and simply setting right the presentation of various opinions. dab (𒁳) 16:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Temper tantrum? Where's the civility? OH, that's right, you changed the article without consensus or discussion, so maybe you don't understand civility from Wikipedia's standpoint. You were wrong here bolden and bachmann. Orangemarlin 20:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

afd

could anyone explain why on earth you would want to afd Jesus Christ as myth, as a pov fork of this article? That's completely irrational. Preferredly, explain your reasons on that article's talkpage. Oh, and please look up "myth" in some good dictionary first. The article here for months laboured under the misapprehension that "myth" has anything to do with historicity. It appears that this article is about a theory that argues against the historicity of Jesus. It may or may not be a pov-fork of Historicity of Jesus, but how on earth can you allege a sober discussion of the mythology in the gospel is in any way a pov fork of this? I am especially confused since the people protesting do not appear to be victims of fundamentalist piety but self-describe as skeptics. I am used to having problems getting plain reason across to religionists, but I am a little bit at a loss on how to recommend plain reason to rationalists... dab (𒁳) 16:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Reverted and tags removed

I've reverted the article back to its form of a week ago, prior to this whole fracas the most recent outgrowth of which was the creation of, and AfD for, the new article on Jesus Christ as myth. Accordingly, I've removed the POV and OR tags.

Previously, as of today, the lead of this article read:

The Jesus-myth hypothesis disputes the meaningful historicity of Jesus. It argues that in light of mythological aspects of Jesus Christ as portrayed in the gospels and epistles it is pointless to call those pieces of the cultural climate that gave birth to the Jesus myth which possibly can be traced back to an individual (or individuals) the "historical Jesus," anymore than finding historical persons who were the basis for Steamboat Bill Jr. would be equivalent to finding the historical Mickey Mouse [1] The majority of Biblical scholars and historians of classical antiquity reject this pessimism and believe that there is meaningful information which can be recovered. [2]. That is while the mythological parallels in the gospel narrative are widely recognised, a claim of non-historicity must make a case that biographical details reported in the gospels rather than the historical core of the narrative are secondary embellishments intended to create a fictitious impression of historicity.

Presently the lead reads, once again, as it did a week ago and has read more-or-less this way for some time now:

The Jesus-myth hypothesis, also commonly called Jesus as myth, refers to the idea that the narrative of Jesus in the gospels is not about a real person, but a construct of Christian mythology, which parallels mystery religions of the Roman Empire such as Mithraism and the myths of rebirth deities. The study of such elements is often, but not exclusively, associated with a skeptical position toward the historicity of Jesus.

The theory was first proposed by historian Bruno Bauer in the 19th century; it is supported by a small minority of scholars, some of whom are outside the historical discipline. The majority of Biblical scholars and historians of classical antiquity reject the thesis.[1]

I made a minor clarification to the hypothesis being commonly referred to as "Jesus as myth", which represented the last reasonably consensused version. ... Kenosis 20:30, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

That intro however simply isn't true anymore. I have questions as to whether it was ever true. It represents the content of this article pre-split. This article simply no longer discusses most of those topics. I understand people object to the Mickey Mouse language, and welcome changes to it. I would love to start discussing content in good faith in a cooperative manner. So far people have been unwilling to do so. Even excluding the mithric comments, the narrative of Jesus in the gospels is not about a real person is probably too strong a statement. "Is about a real person" is rather vague. Real people don't raise the dead, turn water into wine and walk and water. So what does it even mean? jbolden1517Talk 20:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
"in good faith in a cooperative manner" Here we go again. You mangled the article by splitting it...maybe you'll begin to see why the split was a bad idea. •Jim62sch• 20:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I suggest it be taken point-by-point. One could start by reading the intro above (the top one of the two just above, after Dbachmann and Jbolden got done rewriting the article with some 150-200 edits in less than a week), then go from there. The version I reverted to was the last version that could reasonably be said to have obtained consensus prior to the complete rewrite. ... Kenosis 20:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit clash)Get real - mickey mouse - whatever posessed you? Don't revert to that version until you get rid of the stupid analogies - it is not other people's jobs to put right your poor edits. Also even by Christian standards Jesus was a "real man" as well as being "God made flesh" - otherwise there is no point to the crucifixion etc. You are displaying a horrifying lack of understanding of this topic - please leave it alone until you have read more. Sophia 20:53, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

You reverted the entire article to its presplit form in the middle of a discussion on AFD about whether or not the split-off article and this article are too similar. That going to make an excellent case for DRV and you know it. jbolden1517Talk 20:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Tut-tut, AGF, remember? •Jim62sch• 20:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I have worked on the unsplit version of this article on and off for the best part of 18 months. It has been slow going to get some things changed and it needs a lot more work as it's a topic that raises strong passions and objections. The biggest problem is alway not falling into the trap of phrasing the argument from the perspective of the critics - something this split exacerbates badly. Quite frankly - how dare you make such assertions that I am deliberately hi-jacking due process. Especially from someone who started all this mess with virtually NO DISCUSSION at all. I never usually use block capitols but I feel it is the only way to get you to notice the point that you have consistently ignored. You are throwing accusations of AGF around but as the bibe says "Take the plank out of your own eye". Sophia 21:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Sophia -- This article solves the problem its about authors not about Jesus. For a evangelical/fund to argue they don't have to argue what happened but rather what Well's theory is (or Doherty's or Nelsons or...). This article doesn't say anything about what's true but rather what a school say is true. The other article is likely to have an easier time of it as well. It no longer has to argue why these similarities developed or in what order they developed but rather just prove they exist. Both cease being apologetics and instead cover distinct subjects. jbolden1517Talk 21:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

But the Jesus as myth camp is not just about disputing the historicity of Jesus. That is the one aspect of it that Christians fix upon as it is so central to their faith. The majority of any book on the subject is devoted to the parallels, myths, external contemporaneous records etc. You cannot prove Jesus did not exist - you can NEVER prove a negative. Quite frankly the lingual abilities you are displaying here are not good enough anyway - let alone you grasp of the subject. So - let me ask - what have you read on this subject (and I'm talking books here not websites)? Sophia 21:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
POV from these guys is just insulting. Although I don't personally believe that Jesus ever existed, that's not the point of what was this article. I'm about to find the edits from before these POV pushers entered this article and revert back. I'm done with this discussion, and I hope you help out Sophia. We worked too hard to clean up this article to let it become a giant POV mess. Orangemarlin 23:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Hallo Sophia, hallo you others, do I get this right? This article is supposed to cover the view or rather a bunch of related views that consider Jesus Christ to be a myth concocted out of various igrendients and not a person that walked the earth 2000 years ago and/or not a person about whom knowledge is attainable by historical research? Str1977 (smile back) 08:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Str - so glad you are here as although we won't agree ;o) I know we will have a proper debate based on real information! My understanding of the subject is that the Jesus as myth camp start from looking at the writings about Jesus' life and try to determine what has been accrued along the way to the formation of the Christian doctrines and mythology as we know them. They are looking at parallels from older myths, current (ish) events such as the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem, and the mix with the Greco-Roman ideas present at the time the NT was being written and Christianity was being formed. The furthest extreme of this is that it is all made up but that is not really what they are trying to prove. In fact they are not trying to prove anything other than looking at what they feel are the more probable reasons that a huge religion about a guy who did amazing things grew up as it did. Unfortunately people like Acharya S are proponents of this conspiracy theory and Freke and Gandy have used this central fact as a tag line to sell books. The truth is that even The Jesus Mysteries spends most of it's pages looking at the conditions that gave birth to Christianity. You can never prove a negative which is why Pagels/Thompson/Allegro don't get hung up on the "did he or didn't he" question. "Jesus" was such a common name at the time that there is bound to be some wandering rabbi who got himself crucified for saying stuff either the Romans or Jews didn't like - in fact as you know crucifiction was the classic punishment for sedition at the time. The real questions this camp looks at are why this religion grew up and where did it get it's ideas from? Also are these ideas unique to Christianity? I am soooo busy at the moment I really don't have time for this but in a couple of weeks I get a break when I was intending to catch up on my reading. I hope then to be able to add what stuff I have and work with people like you Str, from the "opposing camp" so to speak to make sure it's NPOV and balanced. Sophia 08:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict):The article was devised to discuss the view that JC is a mythical figure in the sense that he either did not exist at all, or he if he did exist, he existed in such a shadowy form (like Hercules) that there is nothing meaningfully historical about the stories told about him in the documents we have (ie. the NT). Dbachmann split the articles in order to have one that discussed this claim, and another that discusses mythological parallels - on the grounds that the mythopeic aspects of the Jesus story are worth an article of their own. Paul B 08:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Sophia and Paul for your summaries.
I agree with your carving of the topic's boundaries, noting however that though "the Jesus as myth camp start from looking at the writings about Jesus' life and try to determine what has been accrued along the way to the formation of the Christian doctrines and mythology as we know them", the Jesus myth is not this entire field but rather one camp deducing from their analysis that practically everything about Jesus is myth (a flawed view, in my humble historian's opinion).
I am not quite sure what the dispute is about? What is the opposing view to the definition given by Sophia and Paul? Is there any opposing view after all or is this fight about other issues?
Str1977 (smile back) 09:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The fight is about whether there should be a split at all. It's not at all clear to me what the objection is, but this discussion page has been bedevilled by the view that editors all have a secret agenda of some sort. Bizarrely, from my point of view, the anti-split faction seems to believe that splitting off the mythological parallels is part of some attempt to undermine the strength of the Jesus-myth claim. Both Sophia and Orangemarlin seem to believe that it is inspired by an urge to preserve Christian orthodoxy (despite the fact that dab made the split). It is certainly true that the split was made in part in order to accommodate the views of early theologians who argued that mythic parallels to the life of Jesus were either part of demonic plans to sow confusion or the divine plan to prepare the way for the reception of Jesus. Other arguments have been made by more recent Jungian and other writers that parallels emerge from the essential myth-making propensities of the human mind, and thus represent archetypes without necessarily arising from direct influence of gnostic sects etc. These views don't sit fit neatly with the specific "jesus-myth" claim that the Jesus of history either didn't exist or was an unknowable nobody. Paul B 09:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
In the old version of the article, we have two theories mixed.
One theory which is a subset of archeology, comparative religion, theology which asks how does Christianity (and Jesus in particular) compare to other similar pagan gods? It also concerns itself with Christian adoptionism. The main thing is that the theory of parallels is essentially undisputed. There are disagreements how closely the materials parallel one another, but there is little disagreement there are some substantial similarities. There is also some disagreement about how to interpret those similarities, and that disagreement occurs inside of Christianity. If you are looking for a good example of the discussion Justin Martyr's first apology address this issue well (he supports the idea of demonic imitation as the cause), while C.S. Lewis in Miracles argues an opposite case that the parallels are mythic fulfillment (Jesus is the reality on which Krishna is based....). So they are making literary and theological claims
The second group of scholars are all atheists. It is accepted without argument that supernatural events simply don't occur. They have a focus on the history of literature as it develops. That is they are asking, how did the literature develop and how did it come to be believed as historical? Again unlike religious authors they are assuming anything supernatural could not have occured as written. In light of the mythography above (and similar studies with aspects of Hellenistic judaism) they argue that the legends about Jesus most likely evolved almost entirely from the surrounding myths. In other words they are making historical claims about these events. Moreover these ideas are not widely accepted as being true, either among scholars and certainly not among the religious. By focusing an article on their views (which are not well known or understood) their ideas actually be discussed and explained. The Theory of Christian Development section in the new version while very rough presents an example of where this is going vs. the older article.
The idea of the split is that the article should not have combined these two groups in the first place. They each deserver their own high quality article. The people who originally decided to combine these two ideas have decided that no one could actually believe their whole structure was a bad idea and thus claims of ignorance, hidden agendas, trolling, etc... jbolden1517Talk 10:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I must say I am sorry I seem to have set off such a mess, but it does appear it was inevitable and waiting to happen. The article as I found it was in such a poor state that I did not imagine that anyone would feel attached to it, and I thought I was doing straightforward, detached cleanup work. That much GF everyone can A, I hope. The article began with

"Jesus as myth refers to the idea that the narrative of Jesus in the gospels is not about a real person, but a construct of Christian mythology"

which is already patently flawed, continuing with a half-assed attempt to set it right, often, but not exclusively, associated with a skeptical position which plunges the very lead paragraph into self-contradicting confusion. There can be two approaches. (a) keep a single article, discussing the mythography of Jesus Christ, with a minor section addressing nonhistoricity claims, or (b) a full article about the non-historicity claims of the "Jesus-myth camp", separate from a non-commital article on comparative mythology. I opted for the latter because I assumed this would accommodate the sceptics (sheesh, I am a sceptic myself, but I like to detachedly lay out various positions, not mix them up in a confused mish-mash and 'refute by misrepresentation'), as Paul says, "bedevilled by the view that editors all have a secret agenda of some sort", turning what could be a pleasing intellectual debate into a frustrating rubbing of fragile egos. I do realize at this point that at least Sophia was attached to this version, and I recognize that my cleanup burst must appear uncivil to her, for which I apologize. That said, the article as it stood was so poor, rife with self-contradiction, misconception and plastered with cleanup tags, and Sophia's defense of that state, I am sorry to say, so incoherent, that I have little hope that earlier parley would have made much of a difference. My interest in all this is a clean and scholarly article on mythographical aspects of Christ. I wouldn't dream of "undermining" or hindering a discussion of non-historicity claims, but I don't want the mythographic discussion hampered by offtopic discussions on historicity. There is a lot of fringecruft involved in the historicity debate, but I certainly recognize there are also serious proponents. The serious ones belong on historicity of Jesus. The dilettants probably shouldn't be discussed at all, but inasfar as there is a separate "Jesus-myth" school within the proponents of nonhistoricity, "Jesus-myth hypothesis" would be the place to discuss that. dab (𒁳) 13:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

AGF?

"rvv Kenosis. This is an attempt to prejudice a discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jesus Christ as myth to make the two article appear similiar and influence votes"
Funny, Jbolden, weren't you the person who brought up AGF on the deletion page? Thank you for proving my point. •Jim62sch• 20:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Additional reversion

I've again reverted back to the article-form of a week ago. There was a mass edit here which was implemented with the edit summary "Gnostic oriented writers". I regarded this edit summary as somewhat mistleading, as it changed the whole article from the last reasonably consensused version. I've reverted it back to the earlier version here. ... Kenosis 05:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Given the AFD debate I am going to continue to work on the post split version. There was a previous consensus (among a different group of editors) to overhaul this version and another debate arriving at similar conclusions on AFD. jbolden1517Talk 10:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I see the debate about possible splitting. Sophia, Jim62sch and Orangemarlin objected to the type of split that was proposed. Then this article was totally rewritten with an obvious biblical apologetic slant starting right in the proposed new intro. Now I object too. So, it would appear it's back to square one until this is settled or reaches a compomise of some kind that's workable and within WP rules.

Note the longstanding lead, for example (with a couple minor adjustments to the terms or operational definitions to clarify the terms a bit):

The Jesus-myth hypothesis, also commonly called Jesus as myth or the Jesus myth,[1][2] refers to the idea that the narrative of Jesus in the gospels is not about a real person, but a construct of Christian mythology, which parallels mystery religions of the Roman Empire such as Mithraism and the myths of rebirth deities. The study of such elements is often, but not exclusively, associated with a skeptical position toward the historicity of Jesus.
The theory was first proposed by historian Bruno Bauer in the 19th century; it is supported by a small minority of scholars, some of whom are outside the historical discipline. The majority of Biblical scholars and historians of classical antiquity reject the thesis.[3]

The following, in less than a week inclusive of a holiday weekend in the US, is what replaced the above:

The Jesus-myth hypothesis disputes the meaningful historicity of Jesus. It argues that in light of mythological aspects of Jesus Christ as portrayed in the gospels and epistles it is pointless to call those pieces of the cultural climate that gave birth to the Jesus myth which possibly can be traced back to an individual (or individuals) the "historical Jesus". The majority of Biblical scholars and historians of classical antiquity reject this pessimism and believe that there is meaningful information which can be recovered.[1] That is while the mythological parallels in the gospel narrative are widely recognised, a claim of non-historicity must make a case that biographical details reported in the gospels rather than the historical core of the narrative are secondary embellishments intended to create a fictitious impression of historicity. The authors addressed in Jesus-myth hypothesis are all 20th and 21 century and all atheist. They operate completely within a naturalistic, rationalistic and empiricist framework. They are addressing a secular audience and they can be reasonable classified as skeptics. Their differences in methodology to lead to differences in historical analysis. [2] [3]

I'm sorry, but this newly proposed intro and description of the topic is not NPOV, rather it is fairly flat-out biblical apologetics. ... Kenosis 14:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

There is biblical apologtics in the sentences beginning "The authors addressed...", but not before. Your reasonable NPOV complaint is not really about one version versus another, but some specific sentences. That's separate from the debate about the scope of the article and whether or not it should concentrate on the "no historical jesus" theory. The last sentences you quote should certainly go. It is not true that they are all 20th century or that they are all atheists or that they all operate "completely within a naturalistic, rationalistic and empiricist framework". Indeed some of the early ones were associated with movements like theosophy. I doubt that a clique of editors were waiting for you to go on holiday. Paul B 14:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I'd rather we had the concise article to work from, but I'm certainly not arguing that either of them were NPOV. I've no idea what the Dali picture with its whacky caption is doing there, for example. Paul B 14:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate the interpretation of what I do and don't object to. To make it clearer, I object to the complete rewrite of this article, which was done without consensus. Additionally I object to the content, form, and organizational approach of the proposed rewrite. Is that sufficiently clear? The onus is on he, she, or they who are proposing the changes to discuss those changes point by point, not the other way around. As I said, it is clear there is not a consensus for taking the new approach advocated by Paul Barlow, Dbachmann and Jbolden, but rather a very strong disagreement about this. But either way, WP:NPOV always trumps a local consensus-- it's one of two basic WP rules that cannot be overridden by any consensus, even if one were to be gained for such an approach. ... Kenosis 14:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
No, it's not clear, becase it's far too generalised. Object to specific aspects of content, or specific issues of content. There is no rule that consensus has to be achieved on the talk page before any alterations are made, even large scale ones. But certainly where disputes exist, we should seek to achieve it. The key to that is distinguishing the specific matters under dispute. Paul B 14:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure, right now the whole new approach is under dispute by many participants, not just myself. Given that this article took a long time to reach its admittedly very imperfect state, the onus is on those making the affirmative changes. Two or three editors took it upon themselves to completely rewrite the approach and start a new article too, both of which are heavily disputed. Read that: "no consensus". As I also said, even if a consensus were to be gained for such an approach as was just taken, consensus never trumps NPOV (read that: "At some point other participants get into the picture, analyze it, and say 'that's not NPOV', which trumps the local consensus").

Gotta go for now. If I may, I think there is excellent potential for an article of some kind which discusses parallel or analogous myths to those of Jesus of Nazareth. I don't know whether it will end up being in the newly created article Jesus Christ as myth, which would depend on the outcome of the present Afd. In my opinion Jbolden made a very useful point much farther above on this talk page, in reference to the "Jesus as myth" approach as compared to the "historicity of Jesus": He said: "The problem with this approach is that it there really are two possibilities: 1. A person got mythological "cargo" attached to them; 2. A belief developed that at some point in the past a mythological being had actually acted in history" I agree this is part of what is going on, but disagree completely that the solution is to completely rewrite this article. The issue of historical evidence for the person to which additional mythical cargo may have become attached is squarely within the "historicity of Jesus" and/or what is increasingly referred to as "the historical Jesus". As I said, there's room for the comparative mythology slant, assuming the comparisons are properly WP:Ad. In order to potentially succeed with such an approach, though, the mythological comparisons themselves must be attributed, not just the myths being compared across cultures. And of course it must have a suitable title. And if a consensus can be reached for using the title "Jesus Christ as myth" for this purpose, then cross linking to it from this article, disambiguating, etc., ought be simple enough. But thus far there is not such a consensus, and especially not one for a radical rewrite of this article here. ... Kenosis 14:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Redundancy

Why do we have a section "5.1 Jesus in non-Christian sources" as a subsection of "5 Mainstream scholarly reception", when the very same range of non-Christian sources is already included under "4.1 Early non-Christian references to Jesus"? Str1977 (smile back) 09:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Because the article has been turned back to chaos due to reversion wars. Paul B 09:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Paul. I'd recommend against working on this version of the article at all. jbolden1517Talk 10:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I went ahead and combined the two as just indicated by Str1977. It's a straight cut-and-paste from the latter to the former section. The present second paragraph of "Jesus in non-Christian sources appears to be reasonably compatible as a follow-up to the first-- for now at least. Mentions Josephus and Tacitus explicitly, probably not too much more need be said I would think. Isn't there a useful quote from Josephus's work where he refers to Jesus having been crucified and the followers being something of a nuisance for the Empire? Or was that Tacitus' history? Anybody have handy access to that quote? ... Kenosis 16:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
See Josephus on Jesus. Paul B 16:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! I also now see the companion article Tacitus on Jesus, which offers the full quote I was thinking of, from the perspective of the Empire. ... Kenosis 18:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
For Orangemarlin: here is where this has been discussed.
Kenosis, could you please explain the changes to my edits?
I especially object to the translation of Josephus currently used - "so-called Messiah" is too narrow a translation - Josephus might have intented this or he might not, it is better to say "who was called the Christ".
All the rest retains the redundancy and only shifts the place where it occurs. Str1977 (smile back) 22:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I had several objections to the copyedits, including the replacement of "so-called messiah" in a work written by a Jewish writer of the late first or early second century. I also objected to the removal of the reference to "Grammatical analysis indicates significant differences with the passages that come before and after it...". But these are not, in the end, major big deals. I'd sure like to see, at some point in this editing process, another brief paragraph summarizing Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius. In my opinion, that paragraph more-or-less worked as an overview of what's explained a bit more in the material presented below it. ... Kenosis 23:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Kenosis,
the trouble is that Josephus is not saying "so-called Messiah" with the connotations that this phrase carries in English. Sure, Josephus didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah. But in translations we should always opt for the broader translation - otherwise it is putting interpretation into the translation and thus patronising the reader. And there is a broader and thus more accurate and better translation avaiable. I can't and won't accept the bad translation.
I understand your concerns about the "grammatical analysis" - I thought this too detailed but will not revert it. However, it must be noted that it is not just grammatical analysis - that the Testimonium affirms Jesus being the Christ and having risen from the dead and doubts whether one should call him a man is not a matter of grammar but one of content. If Josephus had written all of this, he would have been a Christian.
Finally, the version reverted to does not reduce redundancy but replicates it. Moving a redundant section up so that it stands next to the section it is redundant with makes the problem more visible but doesn't solve it. If you see anything in the section moved-up that is not included in the other section and should be included, please make according changes instead of reverting to a mess.
Orangemarlin, instead of shouting POV you should come here and post your concerns. Str1977 (smile back) 08:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't shout. Please review remaining civil. Orangemarlin 09:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
And so should you. You blanket revert without ever addressing the arguments, accusing others of POV and OR without explaining anything. I myself have not been uncivil on this talk page. Str1977 (smile back) 09:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Str1977, so use "believed to be the Messiah [Hebrew: משיח; Mashiah, Mashiach, or Moshiach, "anointed [one]" translated as 'Chraestus', or 'Christ']" or something that objectively reflects what Josephus was saying. Josephus was a Jew with allegiences that were not even remotely consistent with the translated statement "He was Christ". Please skip, or at least balance for the reader, the glossed-over platitudes used by the later, shall we say, preferred Vatican scribes and translators. This can be done objectively. Josephus, taking the various translations into account, was saying "said to be the messiah", "said to be the 'annointed One [Messiah, or Christ]"' "Jesus, who they believed to be the 'messiah' [the Christ], ...". There is a way to properly summarize the scholarly consensus on this, which is that Josephus was not conceding that Jesus' followers (the "messiah-folk" or "Christ-people", later called "Christians") were correct in referring to Jesus as the messiah or the Christ, but that that is what the followers claimed or wholeheartedly believed, that "Jesus was or is the messiah). Or at least this is what much of the academic debate is about. Or say it explicitly, e.g. "... has been translated in several ways as "He was the Christ" [cite to William Whiston's Tesimonium] and "They believed him to be the messiah [Christ]" [cite to, e.g., Alice Wealey, who's tracked it back to an early Greek translation]. There's a way to do this so it reflects the actual debate. Kudos to you for trying. I recognize it's not an easy task. ... Kenosis 16:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Kenosis, this particular issue is quite simple. We mustn't bargain for translating this ourselves - that would be OR - but simply give a standard translation. So far I see two versions here, the one translating "so-called Messiah" and the one using "who was called the Christ". Are there any more? We have to chose from the existing versions and to me it is clear that the better one is the one "who was called the Christ", for the reasons I gave above: it is broader in its meaning and avoids connotations that are not in the Greek (after all, there is a debate about whether the Christ qualifier was an interpolation - if it clearly said "so-called" with all negative connotations that wouldn't be the case).
Maybe you are confusing the two passages: the James passage does not contain "He was the Christ" but refers to James as the "brother of Jesus who was called the Christ" - the statement "He was the Christ" is part of the Testimonium Flavianum - most probably interpolated and one of the elements I talked about above when I said that the reasons for supposing an interpolation of the TF are not merely grammatical. So there is no need to debate Josephus' allegiance as there is no disagreement.
Do you know understand my point? Cheers, Str1977 (smile back) 17:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes I think I do understand the point here. It is not OR to make clear to the reader that there's a range of translation and a scholarly debate about it and give examples. I gave two examples above, citing to Whiston and Wealey as examples of the two main views. Moreover, making clear what the etymology of Meshiah (Annointed One]->messiah->Chraestus->Christ is not OR-- just cite it accordingly. Same with Messiah-folk->Christ-people->Christian, which can help make clear to the reader what some of the debate and controversy is about. There are many ways to do this objectively without resorting to OR. ... Kenosis 17:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Kenosis,
sure there is a range of translations. We could of course include many translations side by side to show this but I don't think that would help the article. Or we can chose the broadest translation. What I think is OR is to produce a translation of our own or to put one together out of existing ones (At least, that was the view elsewhere when we debated the Nicene Creed text - and there the OR change would have merely consisted of changing a plural "we" to a singular "I") or including such etymological explanations into the quote.
IMHO the etymology of Christ/Messiah or Christian cannot be covered here, but we can wikilink these words. Str1977 (smile back) 18:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Ah, and I don't want to make it an issue but is has to be said. There are no Vatican scribes involved in this at all. Str1977 (smile back) 18:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
No need to give the whole slew of translations. There's a debate going on that can be readily divided into two camps. One says that the version that says "He was Christ" is accurate; the other says that Josephus, being a Jew with allegiances elsewhere, said essentially "they believed him the Messiah" and cite accordingly. A brief reference, either in the article text or in a footnote, to the etymology of Messiah->Christ could be very helpful to readers, and the citations for that are widespread-- just pick a couple as the etymology isn't even controversial. That's not OR, that's part of writing and editing an article and explaining to the reader, with sourcing, what the particular debate is about. It would be OR if we invented the thesis that translations into Latin and ultimately English didn't accurately represent what Josephus said. Please don't forget too, that Josephus is a vital historical source because he was Jewish with allegiances elsewhere who was commenting from an independent perspective on the increasingly visible "messiah-folk" or "Christ-people", the early Christians. Anyway, two or three representative examples, e.g., variously translated as "He was Christ" [cite], "so-called Christ"[cite], and "they believed him the Messiah" [cite] ought to do it I would think. ... Kenosis 18:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
No No No No. You still haven't figured out what I am talking about. I am not talking about any "He was the Christ" passages. What I am talking about is this passage:
  • ...the newly appointed high priest "convened the court of the Sanhedrin and brought before them the brother of Jesus the so-called Messiah, who was called James, and some other men, whom he accused of having broken the law, and handed them over to be stoned".
vs.
  • ... the newly appointed high priest "convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought them a man called James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned."
Both are possible translations of the same Greek text BUT the former ("so-called") is narrower, introducing connotations not contained in the Greek text, and therefore worse. That's the whole translation issue involved here. It is not a matter of several legitimate views but one of a better and a worse translation.
"He was the Christ" is contained in the Testimonium Flavianum (the longer passage on Jesus) - and there we have absolutely no translation issue (later correction: except the argument by Alice Whealey) but an interpolation issue. This cannot be translated differently as this is what the Greek Josephus text contains word for word. The interpolation must of course be addressed but fiddling around with the translation is not an option.
But to make this clear once and for all - the issue here is the James passage. Str1977 (smile back) 19:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I see more explicitly what you're referring to now. In other words, vatican scribes were only alleged to be involved in the "Testimonium Flavianum". The reference to James, while it's validity is contested by several writers, has general scholarly consensus as to its validity, having been traced at least back to a fourth century Greek copy of the Antiquities that appears to be authentic. OK, fine.

I don't know what the solution is then. But I'd like to see a bit more of a straighforward summary paragraph or two, such as, for example: Three early writers are typically cited in support of the actual existence of Jesus: Josephus, Tacitus and Seutonius. Proponents of the view of Jesus as myth typically dispute the accuracy of one or more of these sources. Then proceed in more depth, which the article already does, even if imperfectly. Please, though, retain a summary of the three at the top of that section so the reader gets a reasonable picture-- this is why I advocated keeping some form of the paragraph that was brought into the section from the bottom of the article. ... Kenosis 19:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I think I have raise this issue nonetheless. The Vatican has been the papal residence since roughly 1400 (after the return from Avignon, before that it was the Lateran) but even though no papal scribes have been involved. The interpolations must have occured at sometime between Origen (who quotes Josephus without noticing the TF) and Eusebius (who essentially quotes what we have today). So it must have occured between 250 and 325. And of course, all this happened in Greek. Papal scribes wrote in Latin.
The James passage is hardly contested as it bears nothing objectable (no Christian profession, no grammatical difficulties).
Okay, I can live with a short summary that basically lists the three as your suggestion above does. But nothing more - the actual content should be relegated to the sub-section. Unless you want to do away with the sub-section. The point is that every item of information is included once. Str1977 (smile back) 20:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
NP. Thank you for your diligence Yes, there was a lot of interpolating going on in the period around 325 to be sure. Anyway, good regards, and look forward to seeing a resumption of your ongoing debates with Sophia and perhaps others. ... Kenosis 20:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I don't think so (that there was a lot of interpolating going on in this period) - but I is a nice that we can narrow down the date of this particular interpolation (though I'd rather no agree with the thesis that Eusebius himself did it - only very few people would quote something they have forged themselves, especially when everyone could have pointed at their doing). Nonetheless, good regards and cheers. Looking forward too, Str1977 (smile back) 21:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Yep. Certainly wasn't meaning to imply, e.g., that Eusebius of Caesarea was going around telling people to burn all the old copies of Mark and such, or altering things himself, or whatever. Plainly he was as diligent a historian as would have been possible back in that day. Agreed that 325 was mainly a sort of culmination of many events that preceded. By "a lot of interpolating", I was merely referring to the workings of the council in attempting to "standardize" the diverse material available at the time. Anyway, my pleasure to have had this exchange with you. ... Kenosis 22:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, exactly. There was no standardizing done by the Council of Nicea, least of all concerning non-Christian writings. IMHO (totally speculative but not unreasonable or without parallel) the interpolation occured because someone added marginal notes to his copy of Josephus and sometime between 250 and 325 took these notes for part of the text, culminating in the text we now have. But never mind my theory. I don't think that antiquity was as obsessed with standardizing as our times - no wonder that we tend to project this leaning backwards in time. Str1977 (smile back) 07:08, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Doherty epilogue

Why does the section "5 Mainstream scholarly reception" end in a comment by Doherty, himself decidedly not a part of that mainstream, which basically says that someone else should come along. Isn't this akin to a proponent of a minority view saying that one day (oh happy day) the majority will come to see the wisdom of the minority view and change its mind. Revision and changing minds are an essential part of all branches of scholarship but why should we give a platform to any one view in this? Str1977 (smile back) 09:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Well... I do see your point... but I think there's arguably validity in assigning a special preference to the view of the subjects of the article, of which Doherty is a notable example, and the only one (I'm aware) that has commented on the subject. TJ 09:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
It still seems too be POV pushing to me in as much as it tries to even out the consensus of scholarship by pointing to a possible future change to this consensus. Str1977 (smile back) 07:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I've removed that comment as I think it's inappropriate. As Str1977 said Doherty is NOT part of the mainstream and cannot be included in here. This is an encyclopaedia and not a discussion forum. Mercury543210 20:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

20th century

The last sentences you quote should certainly go. It is not true that they are all 20th century or that they are all atheists or that they all operate "completely within a naturalistic, rationalistic and empiricist framework". Indeed some of the early ones were associated with movements like theosophy

Paul --
Good point. I'm thinking of essentially excluding the 19th century people since its my belief they ended up being part of the Jesus myth school. That is they advanced the comparison angle but that their analysis of the data by and large died out and doesn't impact the modern historical analysis. That is they aren't really precursors to say Wells. Given that explanation do you disagree?

Original research

Reverted it. Thanks. Orangemarlin 08:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Would you care to explain? Blanket reverting is what I call uncivil. Str1977 (smile back) 09:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
An explanation would be nice, however I disagree that a blanket revert is uncivil, especially in light of the tone and thrust of what was reverted. Did it all need to go? Probably not, but most of it sure as hell did.
Also, I would suggest that any edits, other than the cosmetic or grammatical be discussed before making them. Given the turmoil of this article and the two linked to it (especially the POV fork), it would be the civil thing to do. •Jim62sch• 19:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Of course, I disagree. I did not begin complaining about incivity, but if anything was uncivil, it was IMHO the blanket reverting.
I agree that edits should be explained - not necessarily however on the talk page, sometimes the edit summary is quote sufficient - the talk page is for discussing, not for keeping records.
I object that suddenly I am supposed to be the bad guy - "especially in light of the tone and thrust of what was reverted", what is that supposed to mean? Did you read what I changed? And any objections should be made clear in some way even more so. Str1977 (smile back) 20:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Jesus myth (copied from Orangemarlin's Talk page)

I am copying this from the talk page so that everyone can see Orangemarlin's 
very substantial  arguments and display of civility:

Instead of blanket reverting me under factually inaccurate labels you could move yourself to explaining your objections on the article talk page. Str1977 (smile back) 08:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh you mean to gain consensus? Explain actions? Like you and your friends did with the article? You're right, I should spend 15 more seconds explaining myself than you did. Orangemarlin 08:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I hope you are enjoying your condescension. In any case, I have explained all my edits in edit summaries and on the talk page - explain meaning more than just throwing around acronyms. And note: I have no friends working on the article, the one coming closest is Sophia, which with I do not share a POV, and Paul B. I am not friends with Jbolden, if you are referring to him. Str1977 (smile back) 09:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I actually don't care who are your friends or not. You could say you're friends with the Pope and how am I ever going to believe you one way or another. The fact is that the article got completely destroyed, and it was done in an underhanded way. I have no clue if you were part of the group that did it, but all I see are POV edits from you and the others. I do not condescend. Do not state what you "think" I am doing. I am matter-of-fact about this. I see POV, OR, and other issues, and I revert. It truly appears to me that you are destroying the article. If you are not, then why so much own research in it? Orangemarlin 09:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to butt in guys but having worked with both of you I know that if we can just cool down, identify the real wild card here (jbolden) and backtrack to a place we all recognise, that we now have the sort of people around to build a good article. Yep Str has a POV but so do I and I know from working with him in the past that he is knowledgeable and fair in a dispute. Str was in no way part of the little huddle that had a "good idea" one day to mess things up and I personally was relieved to see him arrive as I knew we would then have discussions that were not "mickey mouse". I respect you both immensely and would love it if we could all work together constructively. Sophia 12:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I am still completely puzzled about what happened to the article and what the sides are. I wish we could roll things back to how they were.--Filll 13:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

--- Orange, neither do I care whether you care. It was you brought up this issue. Just because jbolden posted on my talk page and I replied in a friendly manner doesn't mean that we are friends. I don't yet oversee this whole issue with him but I certainly do not approve of his blanket reverting to his preferred version. Neither do I like your unexplaind blanket reversion. Finally, even when you say you do not condescend you are doing it. Unless my senses are deceiving me. Descend from your horse and talk to other people in a meaningful way. It can only help all of us.

Sophia, oh I would love to see this cool down. Only what can I do when I am getting no explanations from Orange? Simply stating POV and OR (first the one, than the other) doesn't help and even after asking I get only condescension.

Str1977 (smile back) 13:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

---

I don't mind ugly arguments between POV-pushers, but I can't accept this style of argument between otherwise reasonable editors. It is almost impossible to evaluate the merits of the split with so much noise about editor action and so on. Since the split was done too hastily, perhaps we can revert to the previous state of affairs, and develop the split pages as sub-pages of this talk page. Then, we can perhaps engage in a friendly discussion about how to best cover this topic. I do believe there is some merits in the split. For me, it made clear what distinguishes a Jesus-myth theorist from say any old mainstream atheist historian who denies every religiously significant event in the Bible.

In any case, I think a good case can be made for the split, but in order to do so, can we perhaps turn back time. Let's forgive and forget that this has happened, and then discuss this idea together with editors like SOPHIA, who are deeply upset about this split. I think much frustration is due to procedure, and not the actual content. Would people find this idea acceptable? Personally, I probably even support the split, but I feel it was done too hastily, offending too many people, and neglecting the consensus process that is so vital. What do you people think about this suggestion to turn back time, and discuss this more widely?

Respectfully, Merzul 10:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

There shouldn't be a problem with the split if people don't interpret it as a "split" so much as the creation of a new article looking in detail at the comparisons between the Jesus story and other world myths. It would make this article too long anyway if that were to be done in detail here. In order to be comprehensive pre-19th Century Christian Synchretism (e.g. Jacob Bryant) could also be included along with Jungian ideas etc. This article can discuss what it was always supposed to discuss - the history of arguments from scholars who believe that JC is best understood in terms of a historicised god/messiah figure rather than a real bloke who went around Israel talking stuff about the Kingdom of God and then got executed for irritating the authorities. Paul B 11:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
At the moment I cannot see the wood for the trees and would appreciate back tracking. I also would feel much more comfortable with the line that Paul is taking as I think I can begin to see where he is going with this. Not to make this personal but I feel Jbolden has been a loose canon who's uninformed edits have made it very difficult for all to sort out what is really going on. I would much rather start from a properly planned split if that is what the majority see as best representing the subject(s) with article titles that make sense. I'm prepared to hold off article edits and sort things out on talk pages first but I really feel that working from one article would make the most sense so we can sort out the remit of each potential separate article before they are created. I've felt for the last few days that I'm desperately trying to shut the door after the horse has bolted and have been surprised at the amount of support an editor who sees this subject as a theist vs atheist one has received - one and who's version with the Mickey Mouse analogy was defended and reverted to.
The good effect of all of this is that there are now a lot of people with a keen interest on this subject devoting time to it. Let's harness that, backtrack to a point we all recognise and then move forward. The original Jesus as myth article was not good so I have no issue with it being overhauled but let's do it in a considered way rather than "tossing coins" to see what material we put where. Sophia 12:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I still can't oversee the whole issue but I agree that giving all the alleged parallels would be too much for this article. Still "Jesus as myth" is not a good title for any article. I would suggest a sub-article to this article (clearly marked as such) titled "Parallels between Jesus and myths" or the like.
Right now I am concentrating on improving this article but am cut short by stone-walling and (unexplained) blanket reverting. Comments on this are appreciated. Str1977 (smile back) 13:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I find it very difficult to understand, so I apologise if I misprepresent the situation. But it seems that some editors, notably Orangemarlin and Jim are mainly involved in ongoing wars with Creationists on Intelligent Design and other pages. I get the impression that they tend to take a knee-jerk position that everyone who supports changing this article is part of some furtive Creationist clique. (see dab's comments at the bottom of the Jesus Christ as myth page). This leads to really confused and frustrating debate since they seem to see POV that either isn't there, or, if it is, is a quite different POV from the one they imagine it to be. As a result no-one seems to know who is arguing about what, just that people are really angry about something. Jbolden's preferred version of this page [5] for example was idiosyncratic and given to dogmatic assertions. It needed to be developed, but had the avantage that it was tight and focussed. However, I'm at a loss to see how it can be construed as a POV attack on the hypothesis (if that is indeed how it was construed), rather the opposite. Paul B 14:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Just a bit off-topic don't you think? Creationists and ID have nothing to do with this article. If we are all going to go trawling through each others edits on disparate articles, this is going to get extraordinarily nasty very quickly. Also, I'd suggest you lay off Acsribing motives, when you have little clue what you are on about. Finally, the bone of contention, in case you haven't figured it out, is the splitting off of an article with no consensus have been reached and out of process. Are we clear on this? •Jim62sch• 19:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Exactly not, Jim. There are two issues here. The one is the split which was contentious before. But the trouble discussed here, involving me, is the reverting of the changes I made. Str1977 (smile back) 20:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, Paul, your mind-reading abilities are way off, so you might want to consider an alternative career. I have no knee-jerk opinion, you obviously have completely misinterpreted me. I know when a Creationist is creating a kerfuffle. Here, we had two editors, borden and bachmann (sound likes a law firm), who took it upon themselves to destroy this article. There is nothing to misunderstand about that. There motives are unclear to me, but I actually don't care. And Str1977, apparently you cannot read either, because I've made my point 17 times at least. Don't edit until we get back to a stable form. You are editing what may be outstanding points on an incorrect start point. When we get that start back, I think you should add your stuff. But calling me names, inferring that my reverts are against you, etc. is not helping here. I do not care about you one whit (not meant negatively, just that it is not personal). Who knows, you might make this a great article one day. But what I care about is what destroyed this article. That's it, I hope everyone is clear on my points, so there is no further mindreading. Orangemarlin 22:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I(edit clash) think we've all got a bit "revert happy" as too much has happened too fast for most of us to keep up. I agree that the title need to change but we tried this a few months ago and no one could come up with anything better - there was no disagreement - just no ideas. Hopefully with more people around there will be some ideas that will fly. Please please please can we all slow down a bit and work out how we are going to get back to an article or articles that are worh reading? If the article is in the "wrong version" - so what for a few days? Sophia 14:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The big problem is the dumb similarity of the titles (Jesus Christ as myth and Jesus-myth hypothesis), and the numerous redirects pointing hither and thither (Jesus-myth, Jesus as myth etc) but I am unwilling to change the title while the RfD is ongoing. Paul B 14:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the title has always been problematic. So's the difference between "historicity of Jesus" and "historical Jesus" and a good few other things. "Jesus as myth" is only problematic because of the "Jesus as man" vs. "Jesus as myth" issue. I'm going to remove the reference to "Jesus as myth" in the lead of the article so as not to unnecessarily confound this discussion. ... Kenosis 17:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Okay, since everyone is posting anywhere without regard to the section I merge the sections again.
Sophia, I think your assessment reasonable. But should we allow those butting their heads elsewhere to take other articles hostage, DISRUPTING the work here. I have other obligations too and am not prepared to wait a few days for the (possible) situation that Orange will then not blanket revert me and treat me as he did (that's not to say I will go away). I would be more than happy to address his concerns re POV and OR but I can't do so if he doesn't talk about these in any way. After all, I explained every single one of my edits, either here in the talk page or at least via a meaningful edit summary. And he hasn't addressed inssues like redundancy, structure etc. at all.
And lest we forget WP:AGFis a policy too.
As far at the split goes, I have stated my opinion above. And I don't think the title change would be that diffiult. If it is, there might be something wrong with the scope of the article. An article for which an concise title is unattainable either should not exist or cut differently. After all, WP is for readers not for writers and readers will type in titles. Str1977 (smile back) 14:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

<unindent>I see Orangemarlin is angry, and so are at least a couple others. Orangemarlin, can you be a little bit less angry please? Paul?

Str1977, I do see that several of your copyedits have gotten reverted in the midst of the larger issue of the basic thrust of the article and its brandy-new offspring presently being debated in an AfD that appears could go either way at the moment. As to this article, the assertions of Orangemarlin, Jim62sch, Sophia, dab, Merzul and myself all appear to agree on at least one thing, which is that the article should be brought back to the form of a week ago before this whole fracas erupted. As I said, two editors, Dbachmann and Jbolden1517, basically took it upon themselves to completely redefine this topic, completely rewrite the article, and start a whole new very controversial article too. I hope the research they did will prove fruitful in one or more WP articles in the future-- nice stuff there on the Egyptian myths and all that. So, I recommend a bit more patience-- and maybe Sophia and Str1977 can get back to a civil debate as before, and so can others. But for now, a complete rewrite plainly lacks anything that can be even remotely viewed as a consensus to change the whole approach of this article from what it was a week ago. Reviewing Orangemarlin's reverts, they were all consistent with going back to the longstanding form of the article which was at least reasonably NPOV, and in that respect I support him 100%. Orange, please don't be quite so angry, OK? ... Kenosis 16:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Kenosis, I can't agree with your observation. My copyedits were reverted not by Jbolden's reverts but on their own for reasons unclear to me (since Orange didn't explain there is no knowing). I am all for civil debate and AGF and so IMHO is Sophia. Str1977 (smile back) 17:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Sure, I saw that one. Hey Orangemarlin! We're debating this, OK? Question for Orangemarlin: Was the reversion of Str1977's edits intentional based on an additional disagreement with Str1977's edits, or did they just get lost in the confusion and haste of all this? ... Kenosis 17:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of haste I've started an essay on Not being hasty User:KillerChihuahua/Haste and while people are noticing what problems being hasty can cause, I would consider it a kindness if you'd take a look and make any additions or improvements you feel are indicated. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Confusion. I want to revert all bachmann and bolden edits, so that we have a clean start. At this point in time, I have no patience for Str1977's edits until we get back to that point. I also am offended by Str1977's one-sided commentary that he's the innocent editor, and I've been "aggressive". Once we're at the agreed-to start point, I'm a whole different person with regards to these edits. Yeah I'm pissed about this. And if you want me to AGF Str1977, then why is he so incapable of noting the reasons for my level of anger, that the article was basically destroyed by two editors, both of whom seem to be friendly with Str1977's agenda. Orangemarlin 22:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Dbachmann edited this article because he saw that it was an intellectually chaotic, incoherent mess, that's why. It was a mess because of editors who are incapable of thinking coherently about the topic, and who, I suspect, actually know very little about ancient history, comparative mythology and the history of the theories abut the historicity of Jesus. It needed to be tightened and the debates clarified. Paul B 06:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Back to mindreading again Paul B--I've got to admit that you're not really all that adept at it. That other job of putting words into people's mouths might be more up your alley. Yes, Sophia and I, despite our education, study of the subject, and obvious interest in the subject are quite incapable of thinking coherently--and, not only do I know nothing about ancient history, I actually don't know what it is. Never read anything about it. All I know about the mythical christ is what I read at the Atheist meetings I hold in my basement where we sacrifice young Christian virgins. You know we pass out these pamphlets about it. I'll pass them along to you if you would like, because since your mindreading skills lack a certain je ne sais quoi, it might help to review the pamphlet so you can accuse me other acts, such as, since I'm Jewish, I voted for that slave instead of Jesus prior to the execution date. Orangemarlin 07:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Misunderstanding - as well as adolescent-level saracasm - seems to be your forte. Indeed you are so adept at the former that you can't even recognise that dbachmann and jbolden are essentially rational-secularists, as am I. You see Christian POV where there is none. Did you even read jbolden's version of the text? You certainly did not understand it. BTW, Barabbas wasn't a slave. You are demonstrating your deep deep knowledge once more. Paul B 08:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Orange, indeed I am the innocent editor when I get reverted not for what I wrote (which would require an explanation) but for the version my edits are supposedly (!!!) based on. However, I did not edit based on jbolden's version which again and again was reverted before I began to edit. If I am mistaken then please tell me which version would
Finally, there is no policy that allows you to suspend patience or that makes AGF conditional on anything. I understand your anger but I cannot accept your venting it at me and my edits.
And again the bad-faith accusation "two editors, both of whom seem to be friendly with Str1977's agenda" - jbolden I never met before, he is an atheist, I am a Catholic - so what do we share. I met dbachman before but I can't remember where or whether we agreed much or not. Just because I respond to them in a friendly way doesn't mean that I approve of their perspective on this topic - or that I disagree - I have no particular view on this yet. What I do not approve of is unilaterally forcing any one view on others.
So, your two stated reasons for reverting me are both non-factual (I did not base myself on that version, I am not friends with J. and D.) and invalid (these are not proper reasons for reverting).
But I am willing to let bygones be bygones if you are giving me the opportunity to implement my edits on an accepted version. Please point me to it. Str1977 (smile back) 07:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I am still looking for that information. If I can't find it on the talk page I will have a look what basis Kenosis' edit had and proceed based on those edits built on it. Str1977 (smile back) 07:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

"Jesus as myth"

I can see why including this phrase in the lede is a problem, but "Jesus as myth" is a relatively common phrase in describing this hypothesis, so it needs to be in there. Assuming that Jesus Christ as myth survives AfD (which I think it should), probably a better title needs to be found for that article to reduce confusion. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, this is what some of us have been saying here. I've no objection to reverting my edit, which I described just below. ... Kenosis 18:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Slight change in the article lead

PaulB and I just had the following exchange in the section above, which I'm reproducing here for convenience and visibility:

  • :The big problem is the dumb similarity of the titles ([[Jesus Christ as myth]] and [[Jesus-myth hypothesis]]), and the numerous redirects pointing hither and thither ([[Jesus-myth]], [[Jesus as myth]] etc) but I am unwilling to change the title while the RfD is ongoing. [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] 14:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the title has always been problematic. So's the difference between "historicity of Jesus" and "historical Jesus" and a good few other things. "Jesus as myth" is only problematic because of the "Jesus as man" vs. "Jesus as myth" issue. I'm going to remove the reference to "Jesus as myth" in the lead of the article so as not to unnecessarily confound this discussion. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 17:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

In light of this, I removed the reference to "Jesus as myth" in the first lead paragraph, so as not to create unnecessary additional confusion, for now at least, until this is all better sorted out. ... Kenosis 18:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Of AKA's and poor titles

The rsults of "goggling":

"Jesus-myth hypothesis" – 66
"Jesus myth theory" – 261
"Jesus myth" – 60,800
"Jesus as myth" – 685

Notice something there? Virtually no one calls it a theory or hypothesis. Kinda odd, no? Also, can we get rid of all the damned AKA's in the lead -- most criminals don't have that many AKA's. Obviously this article has other issues as well, issues that might be partially resolved with the resoration and complete rewriting of the stuff siphoned off to create the POV fork. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I predict that a move to Jesus myth will result in all sorts of complaints about the title being POV. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The trouble is that Jesus myth alone can be seen as an endorsement. And it is a hypothesis (not really a theory). Str1977 (smile back) 19:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
No, it's not an endorsement, that's what it's called. Hell, the Jesus Christ article can be seen as an endorsement of Jesus' divinity, or at least messiahship (which was not a claim to divinity, by the way). &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed paragraph

I've removed the following paragraph from the section on "Early non-Christian references to Jesus", placed here for future reference to any potentially useful content and/or to the sources placed within it. Str1977 and I discussed this in the talk section above on redundancy. ... Kenosis 20:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

  • The first extant non-Christian document that mentions Jesus are two passages by the Jewish historian Josephus. However, the longer of these passages is generally held by scholars to be at least partly interpolated. Suetonius, who wrote in the second century, made reference to unrest among the Jews of Rome in 41 AD caused by "Chrestus", who has been commonly identified with Jesus Christ. The Roman historian Tacitus mentions "Christ" as the founder of Christianity in the context of the Great Fire of Rome. Celsus, a second century opponent of Christianity, accused Jesus of being a bastard child and a sorcerer. He never questions Jesus' historicity even though he hated Christianity and Jesus.[3] He is quoted as saying that Jesus was a "mere man."[4] Lastly, there are passages from the satirist Lucian of Samosata[5], both of whom credit "Christ" as the founder of Christianity. 20:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  1. ^ The analogy being made here is that Steamboat Willie was the first widely distributed Mickey Mouse feature and it was based on the Buster Keaton movie Steamboat Bill Jr. which while fictional was not mythical.
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference voorst was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ Smith, M (1998). Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God. Ulysses Press. pp. 78–79. ISBN 978-1569751558.
  4. ^ Bertonneau, TF (1997). "Celsus, the First Nietzsche: Resentment and the Case Against Christianity". Anthropoetics III. 1. Retrieved 2007-03-18.
  5. ^ Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 1113 see Slick, MJ (2007). "Non biblical accounts of New Testament events and/or people". Retrieved 2007-04-17.

New names

So what would potential articles be named? Some suggestions (bad I know but I'm hoping to get the ball rolling).

  • Jesus as myth → Jesus as a mythological construct.
  • Jesus as myth → Theories of Jesus as mythology
  • Jesus as myth → Mythological Jesus
  • Jesus as myth → Narratives of Jesus as mythology
  • Jesus as myth → Jesus as mythology
  • Jesus as myth → insert your better idea here!

I'm taking a stab at what I think the "Jesus Christ as myth" article is supposed to be from what has been written by its proponents here.

  • Jesus Christ as myth → Parallels between naratives of Jesus and other mythology.
  • Jesus Christ as myth → Syncretism of Jesus narratives and mythology.
  • Jesus Christ as myth → Proposed accretion of the Jesus Christ narratives.
  • Jesus Christ as myth → Good grief this is hard - someone help me out!

If we went for a split I would see the "Jesus Christ as myth or whatever" article as the parent one with the "Jesus as myth or whatever" as the daughter article. I still don't quite see how they are going to be much different as all that I have read starts off pretty much the same way - (i.e. some of this must be made up or borrowed) but then some of it steps that bit further (i.e. there are too many similarities this must all be cobbled together). However I can see how one article could get too big and would need to split into subtopics. We also need to decide where we would draw the line between the two articles and this should be easy to keep to as we will need to make sure the intro paragraph makes the distinction very clear. I would appreciate suggestions for opening paragraphs for the two articles if this is what we decide to do. I still feel we need to backtrack first before doing any of this. Sophia 08:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

We should make the names as clearly distinct as possible. For a long time this article was called Jesus-Myth. No-one seemed to have a problem with that until someone (user:TrumpetPower! I think) objected on the grounds tht this is a Christian term (!). He created another mirror article called something like "Jesus as mythical creation" which was deleted. Of course now Str1977 objects to Jesus-Myth on the opposite grounds - that it implies that it is true that he's a "mere" myth. Personally I'm happy with "Jesus myth hypothesis" or "Jesus myth theory" for the name of the article that discusses the proposition that he was essentailly non-historical. The main problem is the other article. We need to remove some of the material, which overlaps too much with this one, and expand the material on the theorisation of mythemes etc. I think the second one should be something like Mythological aspects of the figure of Jesus Christ or Jesus Christ understood in the light of mythography, but these are incredibly clumsy and prolix. However shorter ones are just too ambiguous. Paul B 09:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with "Jesus-myth hypothesis", but given the history of the article, maybe the title should return to "Jesus myth", and we can see how many people start complaining about POV in the title.
"Jesus Christ as myth" is a definite problem, though, and I think Sophia has illustrated that there's no obvious alternative to the current title. I'd weakly suggest something like "Comparative mythology and the gospels". Whatever it's ultimately called, that article needs a thorough revision to make clear its difference from "Jesus-myth hypothesis". --Akhilleus (talk) 14:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

My personal opinion: "mythology" is very different from "myth" in most persons' understanding of the word. "Myth" tends to imply something completely made-up, not true, and "mythology" certainly tends to refer to a more in-depth, possibly scholarly, study. So there's one way to divide all this. Jesus-myth means one thing. Jesus Christ as mythology tends to say something else. The use of "jesus Christ" in the comparative mythology slant, assuming that article is kept from the AfD or resurrected in some other form, might help as well, in my opinion. Any additional proposed articles, if implemented, should of course be linked to from here with a brief disambig clause (e.g., "For further parallels drawn in published sources between narratives of Jesus and other mythology, see ________"; "For a more in-depth descriptions of Jesus from a mythological perspective, see __________)" This of course assumes that the validity of such additional articles can gain agreement, which doesn't appear to be a sure bet at this stage in time. If the editors here are able to collectively articulate what the articles are about and why they were so named, the chances of a stable article are, I should think, greatly increased. ... Kenosis 14:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think mythology is better for the current Jesus Christ as myth one - it also links with the broader Christian mythology article. Much of the stuff that was taken from this article needs to be moved from the other one - not all though, as it still has to refer to the themes of this one. I'm not too happy about the structure either. I think the central arguments should be placed before the listing of parallels. Paul B 14:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Certainly. If the parallels over there in that article are properly cited to reliable sources that've made these analogies, it appears to have much better potential than appeared to be the case at first. ... Kenosis 15:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the title of Jesus Christ as myth to Mythographic perspectives on Jesus, which was a suggestion made in the RfD. It's not ideal, but it is at least a more precise description. Paul B 22:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I think "Jesus myth hypothesis" (this article) should cover the whole range and history of this particular view. It might include details about the parallels or it might not.
If the parallels are split off to another article, this other article should be termed something like "Paralells between Jesus and mythology".
I opt for retaining the word "hypothesis" in the title as any article is ipso facto on the hypothesis. "Jesus as myth" "Jesus myth" can be made redirects. Str1977 (smile back) 08:08, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
More on this: when I say Jesus we could also put Jesus Christ.
Syncretism is no way to go as it already assumes a certain reason for parallels.
"Comparative mythology and the Gospels" is a completely different topic, a) restricting itself to the Gospels, b) broadening itself to the field of comparative mythology (which is much broader than any Jesus myth discussion can ever be).
I am also not sure whehter "Mythographic perspectives" describes properly what the article is about right now. Str1977 (smile back) 08:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The main reason for making the change was simply to emphasise that they are different topics. As I said, the new title is not the best solution. It was just calculated to stop this page degenerating into semi-deranged rantings, get the debate back on track, and clarify once again why the new article was made. The very reason for splitting off in the first place was that numerous - sometimes rather absurd - claims were being added to this article about alleged parallels between Jesus and myths from a variety of cultures around the world. Dab and jbolden wanted this article to concentrate on the rational arguments of recent skeptical writers that Jesus was mythical being, not an historical individual. From what I could gather jbolden is a supporter of this hypothesis. Dab supports the more mainstream secular view that Jesus was a real healer/teacher who got crucified, but not a God-Man. So the idea was that a new article on "Jesus parallels" could be created. This would allow us to discuss all the perceived parallels from a variety of perspectives - without sullying the Dohery/Wells views with a lot of idiosyncratic stuff that is either fringy New Age speculation, Christian theology, Jungianism, Hindutva fantasy (Jesus was a Hindu or Buddhist) or whatever. So the idea is that the synchretism goes in the other article, which will explore all the various reasons why writers might see and interpret parallels. These would include "diabolic imitation" (Justin Martyr etc), Archetypes in the human mind (Jung), Mythemes (structuralism applied to myth/folk culture), Christianity existing on other continents (Mormon interpretations of Quetzelcoatl), a Divine Masterplan (C.S. Lewis) etc. These ideas are associated with a variety of positions which emerge at different points in history. For example the Lewis argument is a Christian response to the Frazerian/Jungian theories about universal myths, but it draws on older theological thinking about providential provision for Christianity. This is of course why this article was cut down in size - in order to concentrate clearly on presenting the Wells/Doherty theory as they and their supporters articulate it. At the moment the new article is clumsily construted because it was initially cobbled together and because improvement has been crippled by the disruptive behaviour of editors - leading to Dab to leave in disgust and jbolden - seemingly - to retreat in shock because of the abuse he has received. Paul B 09:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm copying this debate to the other article to clarify matters there too. Paul B 09:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Moved criticism into "Mainstream scholarly reception"

I've moved a criticism by R.T. France into the criticism section (titled "Mainstream scholarly reception"), and integrated the syntax of the sentence accordingly. I wonder if this section might not instead be titled something like, say, "Mainstream scholarly criticisms of the hypothesis" or something to that effect? ... Kenosis 21:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The main reason I named it "mainstream scholarly reception" is that I'm in general against criticism sections in wikipedia articles - it enables people to simply look up the side of the case they wish to hear, and not the other side.
In an ordinary article, I would prefer critical comments to be integrated into the main body of the text - however, in this article, that is simply unworkable, as it very easily degenerates into an incomprehensible string of OR claim-counterclaim-countercounterclaim's, as POV-pushers from both sides try to out-do each other, as has happened in the past.
I therefore felt a section on "what the mainstream have said about the theory" is a better way of doing it, because it means that people who come to it aren't simply looking up things to support their case - they're wanting to find out the mainstream POV in the subject. If someone wants to criticise/support the theory, it will therefore make it a little harder for them to look up the subject, and a little harder for them to criticise the theory without actually learning about it a bit more broadly.
By having a "mainstream scholarly reception" section, we also open the door for positive comments to come through, if any surface. What the mainstream scholarly POV on the question is should be a more interesting question for someone who is looking at it from an open-minded perspective, rather than simply to disprove it. For example, it means that the section won't just contain any old rubbish from a fairly ignorant apologist, or whatever - people cited in that section have to have scholarly credentials. If at some point it is felt that it is worth putting in such comments (although I suspect this will not happen), a "response of Christian apologists" section could be added.
So that's reasons both why I wouldn't like it to contain the word "criticism", and why I would like it to specify "mainstream scholarship" - I realise that you weren't questioning the latter. TJ 15:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Understood. Perhaps "reception" is a bit too subtle for some readers-- sounds a bit like a parade or awards dinner with the red carpet rolled out. Personally I don't mind it. ... Kenosis 20:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Things that really, really need sourcing

"...the day each week officially dedicated to him by the Roman empire was later renamed the day of the invincible sun, in turn being renamed Sunday". Primarily for dating purposes. The Germanic precursor to "Sunday" was borrowed as a direct translation in the 3rd Century CE, and dies solis itself may be a literal translation of the Koine "hēmera hēlion". I tried finding a good ref, but didn't find anything good enough.
"...Jesus being more likely to have been born in April or September..." June or July have also been advanced as likely months. The simple fact remains that there is no way to fix the time specificially (If only Matthew or Luke would have used Zodiac signs ;) (I jest, I jest). &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 15:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Explanation?

Kenosis, can you elaborate what you mean by this edit summary "Moving out the back-door apologietics in the very last edit. The argument is not Freke and Gandy's main thesis, and doen't belong in the "History" section."

  • It doesn't matter whether it is their main argument. The argument is put forth and in the version that broke this down to two paragraphs, the reader might be confused to what "had Jesus been a true historical figure, there would not have been such a large number of prominent people who denied his existence" might mean - on its own, without the link to the previous thought this is a rather silly argument. Also, what otheus wrote in the invisible text is reason enough to suppose that the link to the initial quote gets lost.
  • The comparison to other figures is in this wording untenable, as it a) endorses the comparison (instead of attributing it, if it is really needed), b) adds really nothing to the initial argument, c) the comparison is fallacious as not one of these other people was ever seen as a divine saviour figure - so the docetist thought would not apply
  • It also needs to be clear that the equation of the 2 John quote with the claim of non-historicity is not a fact but a claim by Freke and Gandy (a very far-fetched claim I might add)
  • Finally, I object to the bent of the edit summary - calling something "apologetics" is not an argument, just as calling the Jesus Myth hypothesis "loony fringe" isn't. So let's leave such polemics aside and focus on improving the article, shall we? Str1977 (smile back) 23:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Here are the two versions of the paragraph, presently the last of three in the section entitled "History of the theories". The existing version was:

Proponents argue that, had Jesus been a true historical figure, there would not have been such a large number of prominent people who denied his existence, or an even larger number who defended him. Such controversies never developed over other contemporary religious figures (e.g., John the Baptist, Paul, James the Just, Hillel, Honi the Circledrawer). Scholars of the period, however, believe that these early quotes refer to docetism, the belief that Jesus mystically appeared to people but lacked a genuinely physical body, rather than a belief that Jesus was a completely fabricated figure.[7][8][9][10][11][12][13]

The last of a series of edits by Str1977 today (late yesterday in many time zones) replaced the paragraph with:

Some, including Freke and Gandy, have suggested that the idea that Jesus's existence is legendary is itself as old as the New Testament. They point out that 2 John warns of "many deceivers [who] are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh." Proponents identify this with a denial of Jesus as a historical person and argue such doubt could not appear at such an early time had had Jesus existed.Scholars of the period, however, believe that this quoterefer to docetism, the belief that Jesus mystically appeared to people but lacked a genuinely physical body, rather than a belief that Jesus was a fabrication.[7][8][9][10][11][12][13]

My impression of the latter version was that it introduced an element of implication that among the "many deceivers ... who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" might be the proponents of the Jesus-myth hypothesis, and it also had a certain ring to it that tended to sound a bit like a sermon. Among the numerous issues discussed by Freke and Gandy in The Jesus Mysteries, it seems like a more fact-based example could readily have been used, such as one that didn't draw on scripture in a way that so closely associated deceivers with those who didn't "confess that Jesis Christ is come in the flesh". But, I didn't, and still don't, think any specific examples were necessary in this last paragraph, as the section is an overview of the history of the hypothesis. So my edit summary, which was off the cuff, so to speak, was no more literally "off the cuff" than the latter of the two versions above is literally "back-door apologetics". Str1977, I apologize if you felt at all offended by my edit summary. ... Kenosis 00:59, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
To set the record straight, I did not replace the above paragraph with the one below but merged two paragraphs, the first being:
>>Some, including Freke and Gandy, have suggested that the idea that Jesus's existence is legendary is itself as old as the New Testament. They point out that 2 John warns of "many deceivers [who] are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh."<<
the second being the paragraph beginning >>Proponents argue that ...<<
The second paragraph currently hangs in the air and is unintelligible if a reader hops from paragraph to paragraph (as they often do).
If it sounds like a sermon, it is not because of me. Also, what I wrote is nothing about an accurate description of the issue. Again, whether this is a side issue in F/G is irrelevant. We cannot let a shaky claim appear as if it was fact.
If the overview section doesn't need any examples, then we can get rid of it. But we cannot retain examples in such a way that obscure the actual, factual situation of these examples.
As for the final bit, I was not offended but don't want the discussion to slide down the road to a state where only one POV is allowed while the other (the mainstream I might add) is criminalized. Imagine how you would feel if the article on Creationism would allow scientific findings only in a very marginal way. Sorry, but I think the parallel to be quite clear.
Str1977 (smile back) 08:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
The second para has been there for a long time. It's one of the oddities of "diff" views that very minor changes like adding or deleting a paragraph break can seem to be a huge change because the whole para is highlighted as if it is a new addition. BTW it is Freke and Gandy themselves who draw attention to this passage, so the reference to deceivers is not an attack on them. The standard view that the "deceivers" are advocates of docetism. Paul B 09:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Exactly, the "deceivers" are John's words and according to scholarly consensus and according to tradition he refers to the Docetists and not to proponents of the JMH. It is Freke & Gandy who interpret it that way. Str1977 (smile back) 13:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I see now. Then an additional apology from me to Str1977 is already implicit in this fact pointed about above by Str and PaulB. I'd really like to see that sentence removed from the "history" section, for essentially the same reason I gave above. Frankly it's the first time I've heard it as part of the debate about historicity, and thought that passage refers more to the conceptual and theologcial struggle about whether Jesus was properly regarded as the messiah predicted in the Jewish tradition, or that God come into the flesh as it's often said, the ultimately central Christian concept that "God became man", etc.. The Docetists, even from a purely theological perspective, were only one of a number of issues potentially involved in that passage, which I don't want to get into more than in passing here. And it was virtually a requisite for major leaders of the day to be regarded as sons or daughters or descendants of some god or other. I find it difficult to imagine this passage is such a central part of the Jesus-myth debate that it needs to be included in the "history" section.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying-- I've now had a chance to fully read the current text of that section rather than just scanning it. Any strong objections to removing that sentence, presently stranded as the second paragraph of the section? ... Kenosis 14:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
That's all right, Kenosis. I now understand what you were up about. Misunderstandings.
The docetists believed that Jesus was the Saviour (not necessarily fully God but still divine or from above) but believed as such he could not have really been a man. So his body must have been something else, not real, fake-human. Still, they believed him to be an actual person doing this and that in a certain time, hence historical. Freke & Gandy misunderstand this issue when they apply the verse in 2 John to any issue about historicity. Str1977 (smile back) 16:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed the quote here. Hope that's OK. Again, I apologize about the misapprehension of Str1977's edit. ... Kenosis 16:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC) ... IMO, after Str1977's last two edits following up on mine, it reads like a reasonable summary of the history. Thanks. ... Kenosis 16:14, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict:)
There remains a problem, Kenosis:
You removed the first paragraph but retained the rest, which now hangs completely in the air as it refers to the F/G interpretation of 2 John and the docetism issue. I therefore remove it as well but post it here, so that it is readily avaiable for any other employment. Since my issues with some of the wording remains, I also post "my version" of it.
Str1977 (smile back) 16:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Some, including Freke and Gandy, have suggested that the idea that Jesus's existence is legendary is
itself as old as the New Testament. They point out that 2 John warns of "many deceivers [who] are
entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh."
Proponents argue that, had Jesus been a true historical figure, there would not have been such a 
large number of prominent people who denied his existence, or an even larger number who defended 
him.
Such controversies never developed over other contemporary religious figures (e.g., John the  Baptist,
Paul, James the Just, Hillel, Honi the Circledrawer). 
Scholars of the period, however, believe that these early passages refer to docetism, the  
belief that Jesus mystically appeared to people but lacked a genuinely physical body, rather 
than a belief that Jesus was a completely fabricated figure.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

My version

Some, including Freke and Gandy, have suggested that the idea that Jesus's existence is legendary is 
itself as old as the New Testament. They point out that 2 John warns of "many deceivers [who] are 
entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh." Proponents identify 
this with a denial of Jesus as a historical person and argue such doubt could not appear at such an 
early time had had Jesus existed. 
Scholars of the period, however, believe that this quote refers to docetism, the belief that 
Jesus mystically appeared to people but lacked a genuinely physical body, rather than a belief that 
Jesus was a fabrication.[8][9][10][11][12][13][14]

Writing this I have reconsidered Kenosis' change to the article and changed it a bit, retaining the gist of the issue - Freke's claim, mentioning of the verse (without a quote) and giving the scholarly view on this. Str1977 (smile back) 16:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

IMO, the article's starting to flow more coherently. Generally reads better than before with a few summaries the reader can get a handle on things without necessarily reading the whole article. ... Kenosis 20:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Article name

We really need to revert to Jesus as myth as this truly reflects the information that the article is derived from. As Jim showed - no-one else calls it a hypothesis and as long as the first paragraph makes clear that this is a minority view then there will be no confusion. Sophia 12:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree. If the other article survives AFD, I think it would be better to call it "Jesus-myth theory", and to have "Jesus as myth" as a disambiguation page (between this article, the other one, and Historicity of Jesus, at least.) The phrase "Jesus as myth" encompasses what the other article is trying to do (talk about elements of the common Christian/gospel/etc presentation of Jesus as being mythical, from various different perspectives), although not as a technical term, so I think that "Jesus as myth" should not exclusively associate itself with one group that use that phrase, when for example C.S. Lewis would describe "Jesus as myth" as being correct - just in a *very* different way - or indeed Bultmann, or even many more conservative Christians who think there are elements of myth in the portrayal but wouldn't completely go with either of those other POV's (like me, for example.) TJ 13:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I really can't stand that hyphen, it's just plain wrong. Yes, yes, English is a semi-agglutinative language, but it's not German (which is fully agglutinative) and while Jesusmythushypothese might be spiffy in German, Jesus-myth conveys nothing.
Sophia's proposal is less encumbered with nonsense (i.e., theory, hypothesis, argument, conjecture, lemma, etc.) &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 13:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I object. This article is about the hypothesis that Jesus is a myth. If the title can be fine tuned (without the hyphen), go ahead. But reverting it to "Jesus as myth" will not do, as it is an awkward way to put it and does not conform to the actual content of the article (as TJ has explained above).
"Theory" is out of the question as this hypothesis does not rise to the level of theory. It would be the reverse of calling the "theory of evolution" the "evolution hypothesis".
Str1977 (smile back) 15:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Why should we add hypothesis to the title when absolutely no-one else does? [6] If we put it there to make some some point then that is a really good reason not to. Sophia 16:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
As to confusion of the titles between the articles - that has been my point all along. They cover the same ground only some take it a bit further. Sophia 16:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
This article is about the claim that Jesus is "mythical" in the sense that he never really existed, or existed in such a minimal form (like maybe Hercules or King Arthur) that the reality his almost not connection with the story as we know it. The other article is about the interpretation of the figure of Jesus as Christ by various different approaches to mythography. Paul B 17:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
The stuff I have read ends up at the "Jesus is a myth" position because they have found so many mythographical aspects to the Jesus narratives. Sophia 17:46, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
One can study the mythological aspects of the Jesus narratives without coming to the conclusion that he wasn't historical. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Why? Because this article describes a certain something. What is this something called. Would you say "Freke is a proponent of the Jesus as myth" - no ... he's a proponent of the hypothesis. Even below you talk about the "Jesus is a myth" position. Titles must be concise and still proper English. "Jesus as myth" all alone is not. (Leaving completely aside that this article doesn't describe Jesus as myth, as TJ has pointed out.) Str1977 (smile back) 17:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Though I won't give an opinion about what to call the article, I do think the hyphen needs to go no matter what route you decide to take. If it switches to "Jesus as myth," it doesn't need anything. However, anything like "Jesus - myth hypothesis" (or any other variant) should be changed to "Jesus (myth hypothesis)" with parentheses. --132 17:56, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The current title wants to say "the hypothesis of Jesus as a myth" or "of the Jesus myth" - it is a hyphen linking the two, not a dash. "Jesus (myth hypothesis)" is nonsense — Preceding unsigned comment added by Str1977 (talk • contribs)
I recommend that the discussion continue until participating editors have a clear picture of what the topics are and how the material is distributed across them.

(1) There's historicity, of which this article is arguably a topic fork.

(2) There's the historical study of Jesus, which generally presumes there was actually such a person, but which seeks empirical data and other sources independently of scripture, or at least in addition to the New Testament.

(3) There's the mythological Jesus, who according to this slant might well have been an actual historical person, but who, as Jbolden put it earlier, had mythical cargo attached to him as time progressed which may or may not be consistent with what originally was the reality of his life, added as the early Church grew, and which might have been drawn in some way from other myths available at the time to be heaped upon the founder of one's religion.

(4) There's straightforward comparative mythology, which is what the newly created article appears to be focusing upon.

(5) There's the slant used, for instance, in The Jesus Mysteries and The Jesus Puzzle, in the basic tradition of Bruno Bauer, which on the basis of comparative mythology and other historical issues argues essentially that Jesus never really existed at all, or that if he did, the mythical cargo is so different from the reality that for all reasonable purposes the scriptural stories have no basis in fact.

(6) There's also a hypothesis floating around in recent years (can't source it for you right now) that Jesus may be a composite of some of the many competing messiahs that appear to have been active prior to the virtually total destruction of Israel by the Roman Empire.

These last slants, 4, 5, and 6 are primarily where the title begins to be a potential source of confusion in my estimation. So I would want to pose the question, what is this article actually about? and what are its intended limits? Have I delineated the potential topics more-or-less correctly? If not, how can they be agreed to be effectively delineated so as to result in a stable set of topics? ... Kenosis 18:56, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

From our perspective (ie 2000 years after the event) what is the difference between (3) and (5)? The two are interchangeable in The Jesus Mysteries and Thompsons The Messiah Myth for example. Sophia 19:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
It's a difference of degrees. 5 is more "severe" than 3. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, in 3, Jesus is assumed to be an actual person to which additional mythological cargo got attached as time progressed. In 5, the argument is that Jesus is a fiction, the premise supported by mythological comparisons as well as historical evidence and perhaps also by scripturally based arguments, as e.g. the 2John argument. ... Kenosis 20:23, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no absolutely rigid distinction between any positions. Absolute biblical literalists are one extreme, but even many Christians don't take the Gospels absolutely literally. There are an infinite number of conceivable positions on a spectrum. There is a meaningful distinction between 3 and 5, since in position three there is the possibility that a meaningful historical Jesus can be recovered. 3, as articulated by Kenosis, states that the mythos may well be consistent with Jesus's view of himself. Paul B 21:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think anyone implied that there was a "rigid" distinction. Kenosis' point was that the title of the article needs to be supported by the content. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I was a agreeing with Kenosis's point and disagreeing with Sophia's criticism of it. Paul B 21:41, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Ooops, my bad, sorry Paul. I'm pleading bbrain-cramp in my defense. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:53, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
(ri) Regarding this edit (in any case it is a hypothesis ... rm "Jesus as myth" from intro as the links do not reference it): the refs don't support "Jesus-myth hypothesis", either -- the title is a type of WP:OR known as synthesis. The only link that refers to it as a "hypothesis" is that which is refuting it as a "bad hypothesis based on arguments from silence, special pleading and an awful lot of wishful thinking". How 'bout dat? &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
That is stretching the term "synthesis" quite a bit. It is a hypothesis and in the absence of any sort of "official" or "common" term for that phenomenon we must write something.
As you yourself said, hypothesis occurs among the links, "Jesus as myth" doesn't. But the actual reason for removing it was that it is linguistically bad: "The Jesus-myth hypothesis, also referred to as ... Jesus as myth refers to the idea that the narrative of Jesus in the gospels is not about a real, historical person, but ..." - But the Jesus myth hypothesis however is not also referred to as Jesus as myth and Jesus as myth does not refer to the idea that ...
For other valid reasons to avoid this wording see above.
"How 'bout dat?" IMHO this is an accurate and very gentle description of the hypothesis. But of course, I willwill not have this article endorse this view. The JMH shall get a fair coverage, just as Creationism should. Str1977 (smile back) 20:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
The title does not constitute a synthesis as described in the policy. That refers to new theories constructed from existing material. Titles should be as clear as possible. Paul B 21:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Not a stretch at all. It simply isn't called the Jesus-myth Hypothesis.
Jesus as myth does now.
I didn't find any of the reasons to be compelling.
I have no clue what the last sentence means. Also, what's this "I will have this article endorse this view"? See WP:OWN. Thanks. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it is a stretch. What is it called then? Do you dispute that it's a hypothesis? It is certainly not called "Jesus as myth", even if it now has a link - and actually your link doesn't support the term as though the word combination occurs twice it is not used as a title for the view.
It's your prerogative not to be convinced. But doesn't change the fact that it is not a name for the hypothesis nor that the words describe the contents of the article.
The last sentence means that I did not share your (perceived) disapproval of that one linked article. And I accidently forgot a "not". Str1977 (smile back) 21:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Overwhelmingly the main usage on the web is "Jesus myth". Thus, the "Jesus-myth hypothesis" is a legitimate title if the consensus is to continue calling it that. I personally would have no objection to "Jesus myth hypothesis" either.

I still would like to see some clarity on what is supposed to be the scope of this article. Do the five or six basic topical approaches I mentioned above apply? or not? or something slightly different? Because if they do apply, then this article appears to be either #3 and #5, or alternately just #5. Some of the problem I have with the article title "Jesus as myth" is the question of what to do with the implications that Jesus' historicity is valid, but that he got myth attached to him as Christianity grew, in which case one ends up with something like "Jesus as man vs. Jesus as myth". So I really think we all should have a handle on this issue of scope of topic that can be readily shared among participants and allow participants to readily answer questions of newcomers as may be necessary. ... Kenosis 21:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The article is about the view that Jesus is either completely a myth or at least practically so.
The (supposed) parallels to acient mythology can either be referred to on another article or included in this article.
This article is not about Jesus = history + myth, so this would relate to the paralles article, if we keep it separate.
The Jesus = history + myth is a (extreme) version of the Historical Jesus wheras the Jesus myth is only a version of it in as much atheism is a version of theism.
Str1977 (smile back) 21:36, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
So Str is saying that this is the contra hypothesis to Jesus' historicity, correct? ... Kenosis 21:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, indeed. It is the negative answer to the question of historicity. It should be mentioned in the article on historicity in brief but really covered here since it is way out of line of scholarly findings and consensus. All of this of course in NPOV fashion. Str1977 (smile back) 21:42, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
So although one could expect arguments that it's a POV fork, it's presented as a description of a "complete-myth" hypothesis with both sides of the story presented, thereby complying with WP:NPOV? ... Kenosis 21:48, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
A POV fork is when someone creates an article on a given subject that pushes a particular POV. An article on George Bush that forked off from the main one in order to portray him as a great hero in the "War Against Terror" would be a POV fork, as would one that presented him as an international terrorist and eco-criminal. An NPOV article on Bush's foreign policy or ecological policies that "forked" from the main George Bush article is not a problem. The "forking" of articles when one article would become too long or too rambling and diffuse is precisely what we should be doing. There are numerous "forks" from the main Jesus article. As long as we are clear that they are about a definite issue or sub-topic they are fine. We then have to ensure they are NPOV accounts of that topic. Paul B 22:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
If this is a sub-article of Historicity of Jesus, that article should have a short summary of Jesus myth hypothesis and a link here through {{main}}. This is what Wikipedia calls summary style. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent>I'm mainly trying to make sure that at least the more frequent participants in this article can agree what it's about. Offhand, it sounds like Str put it succinctly enough that it is the contra view to the dominant scholarly consensus about historicity of Jesus, proponents of which commonly call the story of Jesus "the Jesus myth". There's much too much in it to include in the historicity article, and it can be shown to be a common thread at least from Bruno Bauer in the 19th century, influential in biblical studies during the early 20th century, and recently popularized by a number of authors including Earl Doherty, Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. So maybe this stage in time someone can go over to the historicity article and, as Akhilleus advises, provide a short statement of the approach with a link to this article. If someone doesn't, I'll do it a bit later, as I'm just a tad short on time right now. ... Kenosis 23:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC) . . . I now note that a main-article link is already provided at Historicity_of_Jesus#Jesus_as_myth . ... Kenosis 01:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
(ri)If consensus is to keep "hypothesis, I won't argue any more (even though I think it bites as a title). But, can we please get rid of the hyphen?
Kenosis brings up a very good point, on levels he didn't even articulate. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:58, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you also support a name change to Historical Jesus Hypothesis? Such word games seek to suggest doubt. It's Creationism vs. the Theory of Evolution. POV pushing pure and simple. The suggestion that one line of argument requires a qualifier while another does not. ^^James^^ 10:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Not really. The title "Historical Jesus" actually implies that there is a Jesus of history distinct from the Jesus of traditional theology. It's about placing him, his actions and assertions in an historical context. It raises the question of the extent to which such a figure can be recovered. It is not a specific hypothesis. If there is a "POV" there it's a secular one, not a Christian one. The Christian POV is articulated in Christian views of Jesus and God the son. Historicity of Jesus discusses the range of arguments concerning his historicity. "Jesus myth hypothesis", in contrast, is a more focussed examination of the specific theory/hypothesis that he was a mythical being. However the real question concerns clarity in communicating the content. I don't mind "Jesus myth" with or without hypothesis (or even hyphen). The question is whether that clearly and effectively conveys the topic to a reader. Paul B 10:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Historicity of Jesus discusses a range of ideas concerning his hypothetical historicity... while Jesus as myth "covers a broad range of ideas, but most share the common premise that... [Jesus] never actually lived." ^^James^^ 11:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Historical Jesus is about exploring Jesus as an historical figure. It only assumes his existence in the same way that the many articles on William Shakespeare assume he wrote the plays attributed to him. It's the provisional acceptance of a normative view. Alternative explanations of Shakespeare are explored in articles called Oxfordian theory and Baconian theory. The use of the word "theory" in these articles has never to my knowledge been objected to, even by proponents of the theories, on the ground that it is "POV pushing" for Shakespeare's authorship. Paul B 11:17, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The historicity of Jesus is not hypothetical or a hypothesis - it is a finding and consensus of scholarship. Fallible of course like all findings of scholarship but still.
The Jesus myth hypothesis is a hypothesis discarded by scholarly consensus.
Suggestin a parity between the two camps would be undue weight and would be akin to putting the scientific theory of Evolution on par with creationism. You may not like this but that is the world out there - the JMH and creationism are discarded by the relevant scientific community.
As for the relationship of a) the Historical Jesus, b) the Jesus Christ of the Christian religion, and c) the actually living and walking Jesus:
(a) is the result of historical scholarship based on the sources - it is a reconstruction by that method just as in the caes of any historical person. As any result of scholarship (a) is subject to debate and revision - hence more there is more than one version of (a) around.
(a) is not identical to (c) since many things are undetectable by that method.
(b) is the focus of Christian belief and of course Christians ipse facto believe (b) and (c) to be identical and also believe that there is no contradiction between (a) and (b).
Str1977 (smile back) 14:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Thank you both. That is exactly what I was getting at in my original post. You are adding a qualifier to the very title of an article, despite the fact that the subject is commonly referred to as "Jesus Myth" or "Jesus as Myth". Nobody refers to the subject as the "Jesus Myth Hypothesis". The first line of the article is now funny:

"The Jesus-myth hypothesis, also referred to as the Jesus myth theory, the Jesus myth, and Jesus as myth..."

Also referred to as? The phrase coined by wikipedians gets first billing? Who do we think we are? ^^James^^ 21:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
No, they probably refer to it as the Jesus myth theory more often than hypothesis. Hypothesis is probably more accurate, but given that there is an elaborate set of arguments then "theory" is fine too. There are many reasons why the term "theory" is used in article titles (and many more why the ism suffix might be used), but canm be be clear that this is mainly about finding the most effective title and not some point-scoring excercise about parity and non-parity between POVs. Paul B 08:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Jesus (non-historicity theories), if anybody really wants to NPOV. Personally, I think the current title works with or without the hyphen. Obviously, unanimous support for any title is out of the question. ... Kenosis 22:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

No that's not a feasible title as it doesn't reflect the content of the article. Jesus according to the non-historicity hypothesis (it is not a theory and never will be) would result in an empty page. Str1977 (smile back) 17:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Moved

There seems to be consensus to get rid of the hyphen so I've moved the page. If I've misjudged consensus, please let me know. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:36, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think this was still very much under discussion. I suppose the next set of questions will be about the linguistic quirkiness of "Jesus myth hypothesis". Not that I care that much, and I already mentioned I had no objection to it. I sense, though, that it may not be a stable article title unless there's a very clear consensus for it. ... Kenosis 22:46, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, sorry for moving too quickly. I thought the hyphen was weird but I don't have strong feelings about it. If people want to go back to the hyphenated version that's fine. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
For **** sake will people please not move the pages around. We seem to be saying that Historical Jesus is an OK title so this one should be Mythical Jesus if that is the way we are going. As for creationism and evolution we have Creationism and Evolution. Not a "theory" or "hypothesis" is sight despite the disparity of the views and their scolarly acceptance. Sophia 16:08, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
SOPHIA, this was just the removal of a hyphen. Not a big deal, and easily reversible. I wouldn't favor mythical Jesus at all, we need something that clearly communicates that this article is about a particular hypothesis/theory/idea of the development of early Christianity, as found in the works of Bruno Bauer and more recently in Freke/Gandy etc. Mythical Jesus is so general that it takes in Mythographic aspects of Jesus Christ or whatever that article's being called today. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Sophia, "mythical Jesus" is not a feasible title.
"Historical Jesus" is the article which presents the results of attempts of reconstructing Jesus via the historical method.
"Historicity of Jesus" is the article which deals with the issue of whether Jesus is historical or not.
"Jesus myth hypothesis" is the article that covers the minority view that Jesus was not historical but merely mythical.
"Mythical Jesus" would cover what exactly? Jesus according to some myths? Can't be - such myths don't exist! So what shall this mean? Str1977 (smile back) 19:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Please pardon me for butting into a conversation that I have not that much interest in because I consider it largely irrelevant to the state of the world. But, please note the following formula: Historicity of Jesus + Scripture and other stories – Historical Jesus = Mythological Jesus Or if one prefers, "mythical Jesus". Not that I expect this assertion to result in a stable title. ... Kenosis 02:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
As for "creationism" and "evolution" ... the former is a proper noun clearly referring to the topic, namely the view that ... - the parallel would be "Jesus mythicism" or the like but that's a bit unwieldy - the latter is not solely about the theory of evolution (though this is of course included) but about the phenomenon of evolution found in nature "in biology, evolution is the change in a population's inherited traits from generation to generation." - even creationist accept that much. Str1977 (smile back) 20:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I think you'll find that Creationists do not accept that a population's traits change at all since we were created in God's image - they tie themselves in all sorts of knots regarding macroevolution and microevolution. I haven't read Bauer but Freke and Gandy start out by looking at all the parallels with other contemporary religions and end up concluding that if there was a "Jesus" he is unrecoverable due to the layers of myth. They do not set out to prove he is a myth - that arrives as the most likely possibility from what they find. If Historical Jesus is the article which presents the results of attempts to reconstruct Jesus via the historical method then Mythical Jesus would be the article which presents the results of attempts to reconstruct Jesus via comparisons with contemporary myths. Sophia 20:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Of course it doesn't really matter to our issue and I can't vouch for all creationists but to my knowledge most accept the idea of microevolution, evolution that doesn't change the species. "Created in God's image" is no creationist but a Judeo-Christian tenet and applies to humans not to all animals.
But your mythical Jesus is then not the topic of this article, which is about the hypothesis that Jesus is a myth. Also, that there is a historical Jesus is scholarly consensus, if you will scientific fact (just as evolution) while the idea that Jesus is mythical is a fringe view of a few scholars going beyond their field. The view needs to be covered in NPOV fashion just like creationism but not any better. Str1977 (smile back) 21:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

(ri)"...going beyond their field." ... seems to be a good deal of that at both extremes.

Sophia was not saying that "created in God's image" was a creationist viewpoint, rather it is one that does effect the way that many creationists treat the issue, especially YEC's. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, sorry Sophia but we really can't have a "Mythical Jesus" article when we already have one on "the Jesus Christ of the Christian religion". It's unlikely that anyone could ever separate the myth from the fact. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm just trying to come up with a title that is as NPOV as possible yet reflects the subject without recourse to "hypothesis" type add-ons that no one else uses. Sophia 21:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
How is "mythical Jesus" NPOV?
Going beyond their field? I see historians accepting the historicity of Jesus - I see professors of German disputing it ... who is working in their field here? Str1977 (smile back) 22:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I said "extremes". Think about it. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't it? It's not an opinion but an area that some have written about. As you pointed out - we don't have The creationism hypothesis even though it is not accepted in anyway by mainstream scientists. Sophia 22:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Jim, if by extremes you refer to Jesus myth proponents and creationists, we are agreed.
Sophia, because the word "creationism" already denotes that it is a certain view point. Str1977 (smile back) 07:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I meant literalism -- creationism doesn't enter into the equation. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 10:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
IMHO Literalism is a branch of bible (or other scriptures) exegesis, not of historical research. However, thinking the gospels are very reliable sources for the historical Jesus - one position in the field of Historical Jesus - is not literalism. Str1977 (smile back) 13:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Certainly as reliable as the story of George Washington chopping down a cherry tree. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, in Shakespeare studies "Oxfordianism" is a synonym for Oxfordian theory. The "ism" and the "theory" are simply alternatives. "Creationism" would be parallel to "Evolutionism" if both were being treated equally, and indeed the article on Shakespeare would have to be called "Stratfordianism", which, as you can see, it isn't. We do not treat the normative accepted opinion as equal to all alternatives in that way. To do so would lead to madness. We would have to have Tony Blair (human being hypothesis) to grant equivalence to David Eyck's theory that Blair is a member of the Alien Reptilian Bloodline. Obviously there are cases where there is no strong consensus view, in which case alternative arguments can both be labelled the "X theory" and "Y theory" of such and such (an example would be the articles Kurgan hypothesis and Anatolian hypothesis regarding Indo-European language orgins). The use of the word "theory" in this context signals the absence of consensus. In other cases it legitimately signals that a radical or non-mainstream position is being presented - as is the case with Creationism and Oxfordianism. Paul B 08:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

<unindent>Looking at the history of this article, not completely, but enough to get a reasonable idea, I begin to doubt whether a stable title will be possible. But there are possible titles that don't include "myth". Here are a couple more possibilites, attempting to call the topic what it is, which is the contra view to the dominant scholarly consensus about historicity, visible since the 19th century, somewhat notable in biblical scholarship of the 20th century, and recently popularized in several late-20th century books. A more dispassionate approach than the current one might be Jesus (non-historicity theories) or, say, Non-historicity of Jesus. After all, though "the Jesus myth" is a popular way of asserting non-historicity, only one of the cited books uses this term, at least in the title. ... Kenosis 23:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

If there were no real feasible title like "Jesus myth hypothesis" I would opt for the non-historicity bit. However, "Jesus (non-historicity theories)" wouldn't work as this article is not about Jesus but about the hypothesis that Jesus is a mere myth.
As for the hyphen question, I recently came across parallels ("tiny-brain theory) that make me belief that the hyphen was correct. Str1977 (smile back) 13:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Jesus and Mythicism? Sophia 16:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Mythicism sounds like a neologism, and would be too general for an article that is about a specific theory. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Mythicism can mean a lot of things so it doesn't work. Jesus-Mythicism with a hyphen would be the parallel to creationism but that reads awfully and is a neologism. Str1977 (smile back) 17:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Uh, well..I hate to break this news BUT: mythicism is not a neologism, it dates to the mid-19th century. Furthermore, even if it were a neologism (no matter how much WP frowns upon neologisms) such fact would be utterly irrelevant: at one point in time, every word on this page was a neologism. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Mythicism in itself is not a neologism. But Jesusmythicism would be. Str1977 (smile back) 08:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
However, that's not what Sophia proposed, is it?
Besides, this whole knee-jerk aversion to neologisms cracks me up. Yes, there are some neologisms, like the pseudo-German Jesusmythicism, that should be shot on sight for a variety of linguistic reasons, but good, well-constructed neologisms are what make a language grow and evolve. Besides, to expand on my comment above, at one point in time, every word in every language was a neologism. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 16:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
No, it is what you wrote. I was replying to you, Jim.
The question is who should create neologisms? We as wikipedians or the real world out there. I think we should just report. If there is no established word around we are in trouble but we should not create "-isms" - "Jesus-myth hypothesis" is better as it is simpler (and note the hyphen, removing it was, as I see it now, a mistake - linguistically it should be there)
Jesusmythicism was not supposed to be real but symbolize possible neologisms.
And don't use your guns on WP. Str1977 (smile back) 20:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's another problem. This article actually deals with a class of hypotheses or theories with a common conclusion, a school of non-historicity theory. ... Kenosis 17:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
....and that conclusion is that there are so many parallels with other comparative mythology that the truth about the historicity of Jesus is unrecoverable. Sounds to me like these theories belong in a different article. Sophia 18:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
"the truth is unrecoverable" is a truism valid for all of history. Hell, even the truth about governments now in power is 'unrecoverable'. Just because the political agenda behind the "War against Terror" is unrecoverable doesn't mean that the Iraq war has never taken place. I find this nitpicking about Jesus Christ in particular very obsessive. To my mind, it is just as silly to ask, "is it true that Jesus is 'the Christ'" as it is to ask "is Gautama 'the Buddha'", "is Muhammad 'the Prophet'", or "is Gandalf 'an Istar'". All, to my mind, are titles that only make sense 'in-universe'. Historicity doesn't enter into it: Muhammad is clearly historical, Gandalf is clearly unhistorical, and Jesus and Buddha hover somewhere in between. Discussing what sources we can recover on historical Jesus is an interesting question for historicans, but without more impact on Christianity than the question of the historicity of Johann Georg Faust is to the study of Goethe. dab (𒁳) 10:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Whether Jesus existed as a person may not be important to the study of the myth, but it's hugely important to those who believe Jesus is God incarnated to die for our sins. ThAtSo 16:00, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

somehow, it appears, this article now manages to obscure the fact that it covers only a sub-topic (fringy and widely rejected, at that) of the larger, perfectly legitimate study of Jesus Christ as myth regardless of claims (positive or negative) regarding historicity. That Jesus is mythological is perfectly plain and cannot be disputed by anyone aware of the meaning of the term "myth". This is perfectly unrelated to the question of whether there was a historical Jesus. Of course, if you conclude that there was no historical Jesus, you will conclude from this that Jesus is "pure myth". Arguing, conversely, that non-historicity follows from the mythological status is turning things on their head. dab (𒁳) 09:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Mistakes

The Idea of Jesus being a myth first came about in the 19th century is absolutely false. Even Justin Martyr said around 150 ce:

XXI -- ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST: "And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you [PAGANS] believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter."

Macrobius, the Roman Scholar explained that many of the popular gods as solar deities or personified aspects of the sun around 400 ce.

Thomas Paine: "The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun."

Thomas Jefferson: "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, & I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

And why isn't Acharya S included in this topic. She is one of the top experts in the field of comparative mythology.

Who Was Jesus? http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/whowasjesus.html

Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm

The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm

Acharya S 'myspace' - http://www.myspace.com/acharyas — Preceding unsigned comment added by Humanitarian22 (talk • contribs)

It's because of confused comments like this that the other article was created! Justin martyr and Macrobius are saying something quite different from Doherty, Freke/Gandy et al. Paine's comment grows out of deist thinking of the period (partly influenced by interpretations of Zoroastrianism). It relates to the more familiar idea that the real Jesus can be extracted from the gospels, but that he was later turned into a god-man. As Paine wrote,

That such a person as Jesus Christ existed, and that he was crucified, which was the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly within the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and the equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and avarice of the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of the whole order of priesthood. The accusation which those priests brought against him was that of sedition and conspiracy against the Roman government.

Jefferson had similar views, and even attempted to create a version of Jesus's teachings shorn of mythologising (Jefferson Bible). These traditions are also related to Protestant attacks on Catholicism as a form of Christianity affected by "pagan" ideas. William Blake's musings on Christianity, myth and deism are part of the same debate. It's true that some aspects of the myth model can be traced to such ideas. See Charles Morris's intro to Sarah Titcomb's idiosyncratic book Aryan Sun Myths. Titcomb's account is a precursor of Drews' ideas about the Christ Myth, but Morris is essentially keen on the more traditional deist idea of a rational-liberal Jesus whose message was melded with Indo-European mythology. Paul B 16:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

There's no confusion. The quotes are all relating to mythology in Christianity relating to Jesus. You omitted my point totally...The Idea of Jesus being a myth first came about in the 19th century is absolutely false. The quote from Justin Martyr says enough itself.

2nd John 7 "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh"

The Catholic Bible dates the 2nd letter of John to 90 A.D. He's very clearly stating that there are many that do not believe in an historical Jesus at all. He name-called those who do not believe, "deceivers" for it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Humanitarian22 (talk • contribs)

The "Catholic Bible", whatever that is, does not specify dates of letters. For the discusson of deceivers, read this article and the one on docetism. Justin Martyr is not saying that Jesus is a "myth" in the sense that he wasn't real. He is saying that what Christians say about Jesus should not be unbelievable to people who don't find it difficult to believe that Juptier had sex with human women who gave birth to real physical people who were demi-gods. Paul B 22:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

If you don't know what the Catholic Bible is, then how do you know it doesn't specify dates of letters? Martyr accidentally exposed the fact that there was nothing original about Christianity or Jesus that hadn't already been in Pagan religions. I'm getting the sense that Wikipedia is bias & will always side with Christianity no matter what. The fact remains that the Idea of Jesus being a myth came long before the 19c. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Humanitarian22 (talk • contribs)

It was a joke. The "Catholic bible" is a meaningless concept. Do you mean the Vulgate? Justin Martyr knew perfectly well what he was saying. By the way, he wasn't called "Martyr". It's not a surname. Please sign your posts. Paul B 23:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Rather surprisingly, our article on 2 John has no information on dating. I bet it's not as simple a question as Humanitarian22 says, though. --Akhilleus (talk) 23:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

There are many different bibles. The Catholic bible is one of them which has a few more books in it. I was referring the Catholic Encyclopedia in the dating of 2nd John, they also use "Martyr" as well. You knew who I was talking about since I just quoted him. I didn't know I needed to "sign" or why it's necessary but I'll give it a try.Humanitarian22 01:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

No, the Catholic Encyclopedia calls him "Justin" consistently [7]. You appear to be referring to the Apocrypha, which are totally irrelevant to this issue. Of course I knew who you were talking about. Look, what Justin says is certainly relevant to debates about the way Greco-Roman ideas may have affected the growth of Christian theology, and how Christians construed their thought in relation to both Judaic and Grecco-Roman traditions. That's well worth exploring in addition to the the ahistoricity claim, which is why we now have the 'Mythographic perspectives' article. Paul B 01:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, as in Justin "MARTYR" - what is your problem? You may lay-off the derogatory attitude. That is your opinion of the Martyr quote. Meanwhile, lets not omit the debate with Trypho. Trypho questions the very historicity of Jesus:

"But Christ if he is come, and is anywhere, is unknown... But you, having got an idle story by the end, do form yourself an imaginary Christ, and for his sake you foolishly and inconsiderately rush headlong into dangers..."

Again, the Idea that Jesus was only known to be a myth beginning in the 19 century is utterly false. Humanitarian22 06:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't Trypho in the dialogue use "Christ" to mean "the Messiah", rather than "Jesus"? The section you quote from chapter 10 reads in full in the Roberts-Donaldson translation: "But Christ--if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere--is unknown, and does not even know Himself, and has no power until Elias come to anoint Him, and make Him manifest to all. And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing." Since "Jesus ... does not even know Himself" makes little sense, I would understand this to mean "If the Messiah has been born he does not yet recognise himself as Messiah". This fits the usage of "Christ" in, say, chapter 74: "You, however, asserted that [Psalm 96] referred to Him who suffered, whom you also are eagerly endeavouring to prove to be Christ." Has any scholarly source we can cite interpreted chapter 10 the way you do? EALacey 08:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
It's copied from Acharya S. Paul B 10:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
EALacey, exactly Trypho utters the Judaistic belief that the Messiah=Christ is still to appear, hence has not come YET.
I can only affirm what Paul B wrote above.
The Jesus myth hypothesis began in the 19th century when such views on many things were en vogue. But later historical research has trashed most of them.
Str1977 (smile back) 08:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Zeitgeist, the movie

Possibly because of the easy available of computerized production tools, and the availability of the internet as a distribution channel has created more and more conspiracy theories. One recent example is Zeitgeist, the movie. I just finished watching it. I have to admit, it is pretty amazing. Some elements of truth are in it, but there are some bits of pure nonsense. Presenting in a compelling way, for sure. Contains some material relevant to Jesus myth hypothesis. --Filll 15:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Weasel words in intro

Many scholars and historians since then and today refute this theory.

?sbandrews (t) 12:53, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

how is that weasly? It's factual, and discussed in detail in the article body. dab (𒁳) 19:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
do we realy need to have it twice :) [8] sbandrews (t) 09:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Michael Grant

If Michael Grant believes in Jesus, in what way exactly is he an Atheist? sbandrews (t) 19:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

He believes that Jesus was a first century figure who existed. He does not believe that he was God. TJ 19:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Then he believes in a "historical figure" that was Jesus, but that "the figure of Jesus Christ is a construct of Christian mythology"? sbandrews (t) 19:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

He does not believe that the entire figure of Jesus Christ is a construct of Christian mythology. He does believe that *some* aspects of the Christian presentation of Jesus are untrue; that is not the same thing as saying that the Jesus of the gospels is essentially mythological - and certainly not in the sense in which this article uses it, which is more subtle than simply "untrue". TJ 19:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Its the semantics I find awkward - to me to believe in Jesus as a historical figure is fine to write for an atheist - but to believe (partly) in Jesus Christ, which is to say Jesus Messiah or Jesus the anointed one, conveys belief to a greater or lesser extent in God, which is fine, but just not very atheistic, making him more of an agnostic or part believer sbandrews (t) 19:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... perhaps we could reword the article to avoid saying "Jesus Christ", then, to make it clear what the theory itself is proposing. You're quite right that any belief that any figure was referred to as "Jesus Christ" correctly would involve theism, and therefore there's an argument to be made for re-wording the intro (or, I suppose, for very very dramatically altering the content of the article, making Grant's denial of what most of the rest of the article currently describes completely irrelevent.) TJ 21:51, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Atheist?

I could not find anything on Grant claiming he was an avowed atheist, whereas Van Ort lists his pastorialship on his web site biography. Please indicate where you get the information Grant was an atheist. Thank you. --Otheus 10:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, completely missed this comment previously. (I'm trying to take a wikibreak but keep getting drawn back in - grah!)
The main reason I'm confident Grant was an atheist is through testimony from people who knew him. However, that kind of evidence is completely inadmissable on wikipedia, due to WP:OR]. The only source I have found to date is this article (http://www.bede.org.uk/price1.htm). Doherty took the Grant quote from this site seriously enough to rebut it in his article responding to Price (the author of that article) http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/CritiquesRefut1.htm - and did so without challenging the notion that he was an atheist.
I'm trying to take a wikibreak, so I probably won't spend much time responding to questions here. 82.36.124.28 11:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Intro

Connected to the above conversation - does anyone have any objections to changing the intro, currently:

The Jesus myth hypothesis, also referred to as the Jesus myth theory, the Jesus myth[1][2][3] refers to the idea that the mythological aspects of the narrative of Jesus in the gospels indicate that there was no historical Jesus, and that the figure of Jesus Christ is a construct of Christian mythology, which parallels mystery religions of the Roman Empire such as Mithraism and the myths of rebirth deities.

To:

The Jesus myth hypothesis, also referred to as the Jesus myth theory, the Jesus myth[1][2][3] refers to the idea that the mythological aspects of the narrative of Jesus in the gospels indicate that there was no historical Jesus, and that the figure of Jesus is a construct of various forms of ancient mythology, and which has little or no historical basis.

I'll probably replace in 24 hours or so if no-one objects - just felt it might be nice to check beforehand rather than go into the more rough, argumentative, way that changes in this article normally develop. TJ 21:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

May I quibble with the 'little or no historical basis', I think it will cause edit conflict problems, otherwise the new wording is much improved imo, I suggest,

The Jesus myth hypothesis[1][2][3], also referred to as the Jesus myth theory, refers to the idea that the mythological aspects of the narrative of Jesus in the gospels indicate that the figure of Jesus is a construct of various forms of ancient mythology, and that there was no historical Jesus.

this seems to be in line with this[9] referencesbandrews (t) 08:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

reference question

The first reference of the reference 1 triad [10] is just a website with the title jesusmyth and not an article on the subject, is that appropriate? sbandrews (t) 08:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

From the first couple of words -the use of the word "Hypothesis" as dominant over "Theory" is NOT NEUTRAL. As a Christian; the historicity of Jesus is troubling -with many parallels to other ancient religions. The only (assumed valid) reference to Jesus outside the Gospels (Josephus) describes him as having a Brother -which contradicts what proponents of "Jesus as Verifiable History" would have us believe.

The use of the dominant word "Hypothesis" is designed to weaken the claims against the Proponents of the Jesus as Myth Theory. Anti Anti Anti 16:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this article is under contention, but if that's your only argument for the NPOV tag, please remove the tag: your argument is weak. Outside of the empirical and pure sciences, the terms hypothesis and theory do not have precise meanings. As far as connotation, "hypothesis" may actually be stronger than "theory", due to the latter's use in phrases like crackpot theory and conspiracy theory. How many times do you hear crackpot hypothesis? --Otheus 10:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I would add that in the humanities "theory" is often used for an approach to studying a subject (e.g., queer theory, reader-response theory), while "hypothesis" often means a factual conjecture based on evidence, which allows new perspectives on the subject (e.g., trifunctional hypothesis, two-source hypothesis). It isn't obvious to me that a "hypothesis" is weaker than a "theory" as the terms are generally used by historians. EALacey 16:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

So you would change the meaning of the words "hypothesis" and "theory" just for this one wikipedia entry? As common usage goes -theory is much more suiting than hypothesis.

If you could find several reliable sources using hypothesis over theory then I would say fine. However you are merely asserting that "my argument is weak" without supporting statements is in fact a fallacy. (see http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html).

BTW my two reliable, published sources just say the word "Jesus Myth" -deliberately avoiding the weasel words "hypothesis" or "theory".

Anti Anti Anti 16:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

After looking at the revisions you will see a "one-two punch" with respect to inserting the term "Jesus Myth Hypothesis" into this article. First there was a name change from "Jesus Christ as Myth" to "Jesus-myth Hypothesis" then there was a biased first paragraph replacing older content. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jesus_myth_hypothesis&diff=next&oldid=133578322 . I'm not sure of the significance but perhaps moving the article back would be in order. Astrocloud 04:10, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't care whether it's called hypothesis or a theory. However, it's much more accurate to call it a hypothesis, since there is no single theory in anything approaching the scientific sense. Anyway, contrary to your claim Otheus has given several examples of the use of theory in the humanities. See our own theory article or the dictionary [11] to see how it can be used as a synonym for "conjecture" or "speculation" and thus as a weaker term than hypothesis. Paul B 05:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it would make more sense for the artical to be called, simply, Mythical Jesus. ThAtSo 09:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

So do I but sense doesn't come into it. This article was split, renamed and messed up by editors who just walked away. Unfortunately it's the second time I've seen this kind of tactic here so it tends to put you off spending a lot of time on it. The article used to be called Jesus as myth and covered all aspects of comparisons with mythology - including the view that Jesus was purely mythical. Now we also have Jesus Christ and comparative mythology as well, those editors that were passionate for the split have vanished leaving two very similar articles with no clear remit for either. My requests for clear article boundaries were never fulfilled (I hadn't got a clue how they intended to define the split boundaries) so I didn't bother with either as I don't have time to play the "try the other article - it doesn't fit here" type of games. Sorry for the rant but this has frustrated me. Sophia 19:45, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I did not "vanish", I merely couldn't be bothered to keep directing effort at you while you refuse to listen to sense. My statement at Talk:Jesus Christ and comparative mythology is very clear: it is you who are trying to muddy the issue, and portray the undisputed mythological aspects of Christ as somehow in support of a fringy "Jesus myth" hypothesis. Jesus Christ is of course mythological. That has nothing whatsoever to do with him being either historical or ahistorical: That's a question of historiography, not mythography This article somehow tries to argue that being mythological impliese being ahistorical, which is completely silly to anyone bothering to read up at mythology that the definition of "myth" (outside popular usage) is "significant story". It appears that "Jesus mythers" are people who fail to see a difference between mythography and historiography, I cannot otherwise understand the nonsense going on here. dab (𒁳) 20:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
It's anhistorical, and "historiography" is not a word. The rest of your argument is horse-hockey of the first order. And yes, you did walk away -- too much heat in the kitchen I suppose (or is that in a bonfire of vanity?). Sophia raises some excellent points. Basically, this article is shit thanks to the split (a split that made as much sense as intentionally plunging one's hand into a vat of boiling oil). &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:06, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
dab - I do think that is rather unfair as I have tried to work with this. I have not put the articles back together and have waited for boundaries so that the differences between the articles would be clear - you supported the split so you must know what should go where. The truth is that to state the distinction between the current articles shows it up the for the POV rubbish that it is. Namely one hacks off the faithful and the other is a way of scholastically glossing over the obvious cribs from other myths. Sophia 20:28, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
not a very constructive approach, and apparently you still haven't bothered to think about this. What you call "scholastically glossing over" cribs is in fact the article discussing such cribs. While the this article is about some fringe theory regarding historicity. I don't know about "hacking off the faithful", what are you even talking about. Jesus as myth says: here are the various myths that are generally accepted to be related to the Christ myth. While "Jesus myth" talks about some minority view that this somehow translates to "Jesus never lived". One is straightforward mythography, the other is a tall claim rejected by the vast majority of scholars. The whole point is that the fringe topic should not hold the mainstream topic hostage, per WP:UNDUE. Discussing the mythography of Christ, "Jesus mythers" should be left out as unnotable. Since people will insist on discussing the fringe claims, there is a separate article dedicated to that. Surely this is all "pov", but with the appreciable difference that one article treats uncontroversial mainstream comparative mythology, while the other treats a "pov" widely rejected by mainstream. Now what part of this 'distinction' is difficult to understand, or 'rubbish'? I have explained this before. Now you somehow wanted to read it again. I don't know why I have to repost this, you could just go back to where I first pointed this out: you show no appreciation of the issue. Once you begin signalling that you even understand what you are told, and still disagree with one thing or another, then this might begin to adpot the quality of an actual debate. Just reiterating random claims of 'rubbish', 'glossing over' or 'hacking off' isn't arguing. dab (𒁳) 22:15, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for filling me in. Even to a newcomer, it's pretty obvious that Dbachmann is deeply irrational and confused, and that there is no principled basis for splitting off all mention of Jesus being purely mythological, other than bias. The only thing to do at this point is to tear down this artificial wall and create a single, neutral article that covers all aspects. What's the procedure for doing this? 22:59, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

It may seem obvious to you that Dbachmann is "deeply irrational and confused", but it is far from obvious to me. I suggest you come up with an argument against Dbachmann's position, or withdraw what you said. As it happens, I have not yet been convinced by Dbachmann's position (or SOPHIA's), but I try to avoid levelling that kind of language at anyone (although I'm getting really rubbish at not being hypocritical about this these days - I really need to start reading my posts before sending them - sorry. Not a good excuse, but some tough times going on past couple months.) (Nor do I support the words used by SOPHIA or Dbachmann, but they at least have some kind of excuse - the really angry exchanges that went on here a while back.)
Supporting Dbachmann's position is the fact that this article, as it stands, does not cite a single proponent of this theory who has a PhD in a relevent field. There are many thousands of PhD's of relevant fields in the world. If this theory is notable enough to be included in the other article, then I suggest someone prove it - by citing a few scholars (ie people with relevent doctorates who hold relevant teaching/research positions at universities) who support it in this article! TJ 23:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Bruno Bauer was a notable academic in his day. His position now has no significant support in academic circles, but was historically important; and the work of Doherty, Freke, and Gandy has received plenty of attention outside academia. It might be accurate to say that the theory is currently marginal, perhaps even crackpot, but that doesn't mean it's not notable. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I would actually agree that the theory is notable - but not in the way that the average editor of this article wants it to be - if they were re-merged, the theory would quickly outweigh all serious scholarship, I suspect, as that's what happened last time. I agree that there are dead academics who supported the theory, or something like it. My point was not that the theory is non-notable, but that it was unfair insulting dbachmann over it. However, my purpose in coming to this article was to write the following, which I was unable to immediately because of an edit conflict with yoir comment:
Actually, my initial post (which had to be corrected because I was out of order in it) of that section was the straw that broke the camel's back, and I'm going to set up an javascript wikibreak enforcer for the next few weeks, with the idea of probably being away for a month or so, probably setting up another wikibreak enforcer, but it will depend on circumstances in my life. Have been out of order in a number of posts recently, this is overdue. Bye! TJ 00:37, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

You just shot yourself in the foot by saying that, if the Jesus-as-myth idea weren't automatically excluded, it would take up too much space as compared to so-called "serious scholarship". Thank you for playing. Next time, try to shoot the ball past the the other team's goalie instad of your own. This is officially a farce so we're going to take the article back. The next move is to insert material about Jesus as myth into Jesus Christ and comparative mythology, and there's nothing you can do about it now that you've so thoroughly undermined your case. ThAtSo 01:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I did not shoot myself in the foot by saying that if th Jesus-as-myth idea weren't excluded, it would take up too much space as compared to serious scholarship. (By the way, I suggest that if you really want to use the epithet "so-called" to adjust to that, you find a handful of modern figures who have PhD's who take the subject seriously.) I simply pointed out that there are a lot of people who insist on making such elements much more prominent than our |undue weight policies allow. That was, if I recall, how the split arose in the first place - an editor wanted to change this article to include mainstream opinions about the relationship between Jesus and myth, another editor would not permit him, so they split the article as a compromise. Furthermore, I would also like to point out that I have yet to come to a conclusion about whether the . I am merely trying to defend dbachmann from your insults.
I really don't intend to hang around here, but I didn't want my own words being used against dbachmann. 82.36.124.28 08:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
"Take the article back"? I'm not a frequent contributor to this article or its talk page, but if there really are several people here so obviously determined to WP:OWN things here and in related articles, perhaps an RfC on the article would be more appropriate than just blatantly trying to ignore policy to get whatever you want. Homestarmy 02:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Homestarmy. 82.36.124.28 08:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm no expert on policy, but I'm pretty sure that creating this POV fork is against it. So I'm going to fix things, just as policy says. ThAtSo 02:14, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

if you wish to fix things according to policy contrary to what regular contributors wish for you to do, I suggest you read Wikipedia:Resolving_disputes - the relevant policy on resolving disputes, before you do so. 82.36.124.28 08:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
This isn't a POV fork. There's been AfD discussions about this and the related article Jesus and comparative mythology, and the consensus was to keep the current setup (though the titles of the articles have been changed). I wouldn't recommend "fixing things" without discussing it first. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like it noted that I ranted at the situation we find ourselves in with these two articles - I was not the one to make this personal as I find exchanges of that sort unhelpful.
I also don't think it's unreasonable that those who pushed for the split should have followed through and improved both articles. Yet again we have an entrenched situation - why keep two bad articles where once we had one poor one that also suffered from vested interests? Yet again people talk generally but refuse to commit on specifics. Previously I never received an answer to which articles authors such as Pagels, Thompson and even Freke and Gandy really fitted as most of The Jesus Mysteries is comparative mythology (I mention these specifically as I have them to hand). The best I got last time was "wherever they fit best" which I took as a great way to waste my time bouncing backwards and forwards so left it to see what settled. Currently we have summations of scholarly authority taken directly from the worst of apologetic sites - hardly a balanced treatment of the subject. Obviously a few more months are needed for this to die down before any real work can be done by people who have actually read this stuff.
And BTW the criteria given for the two separate articles above is a classic example of a POV fork. You can see this is problem by the crossover talk threads that go on. Sophia 10:08, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

This is plainly a POV fork created to minimize any mention of the idea that Jesus is purely a myth. ThAtSo 13:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

"Fringy"

The characterization that this article is "fringy" indicates the POV bias. Thus my original complaint that there was a deliberate insertion of the word "Hypothesis" into the article is proven. When these two articles are rolled back I highly suggest the removal of the weasel words hypothesis or theory. (Note the deliberate use of logical "or".) Anti Anti Anti 16:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

"Fringy" is an appropriate characterization of this theory/hypothesis/idea. It has no significant support within academia. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. This is not to say that there is not sufficient cause for the content to exist. However, if I remember right, and I think I do, Titus is believed to have destroyed a number of documents when he sacked Jerusalem. That could reasonably be in and of itself sufficient cause for the lack of existing contemporaneous documents which would verify the existence of Jesus. Look at how little documentation survives about Pontius Pilate, of the same era, and he was one of the most important, and probably written-about, people in Jerusalem at that time. And, for that matter, the complete and utter lack of any evidence of even the existence of Pontius Pilate's wife, although being a Roman government official he almost certainly had one. The lack of documentation of all individuals of this era isn't sufficient cause to indicate they never existed, and the same standard should be applied to Jesus. John Carter 14:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
  1. ^ Elwell, WA (2001). Evangelical Dictionary of Theology. Baker Academic. ISBN 978-0801020759.
  2. ^ Duling, DC (1993). The New Testament: Proclamation and Parenesis, Myth and History. Harcourt. ISBN 978-0155003781. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  3. ^ "Docetism". Encyclopedia Britannica Online. Retrieved 2007-03-18.
  4. ^ Kelly, J.N.D (1978). Early Christian Doctrines: Revised Edition. HarperSanFrancisco. ISBN 978-0060643348.
  5. ^ Phillips, JB. "Book 24 - John's Second Letter". Retrieved 2007-03-18.
  6. ^ Arendzen, J. P. (1909). "Docetae". The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. Volume V. New York: Robert Appleton. Retrieved 2007-01-07. {{cite encyclopedia}}: |volume= has extra text (help)
  7. ^ Elwell, WA (2001). Evangelical Dictionary of Theology. Baker Academic Press. ISBN 978-0801020759.
  8. ^ Elwell, WA (2001). Evangelical Dictionary of Theology. Baker Academic. ISBN 978-0801020759.
  9. ^ Duling, DC (1993). The New Testament: Proclamation and Parenesis, Myth and History. Harcourt. ISBN 978-0155003781. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  10. ^ "Docetism". Encyclopedia Britannica Online. Retrieved 2007-03-18.
  11. ^ Kelly, J.N.D (1978). Early Christian Doctrines: Revised Edition. HarperSanFrancisco. ISBN 978-0060643348.
  12. ^ Phillips, JB. "Book 24 - John's Second Letter". Retrieved 2007-03-18.
  13. ^ Arendzen, J. P. (1909). "Docetae". The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. Volume V. New York: Robert Appleton. Retrieved 2007-01-07. {{cite encyclopedia}}: |volume= has extra text (help)
  14. ^ Elwell, WA (2001). Evangelical Dictionary of Theology. Baker Academic Press. ISBN 978-0801020759.