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"Born in St. Petersburg, the son of a dental technician, he first came to the notice of the chess world at the age of 14, when he defeated the world champion, Jose Raul Capablanca, in a simultaneous display."

What, exactly, is "simultaneous" supposed to mean in this sentence? Simultaneous with what? Livajo 07:31, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

See  Simultaneous chess  in Chess terminology. — Monedula 11:32, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

About the phrase: "although Reuben Fine, one of the strongest players in history not to have won the world title, wrote that Botvinnik's collection of best games was one of "the three most beautiful"."

I have The World's Great Chess Games by Fine, and there he ranks the collections of Lasker, Fischer and Alekhine as the three most beautiful.

I hope someone with privileges can correct this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.54.125.99 (talk) 18:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I have removed the following paragraph, which is embedded in a long discussion of allegations by Bronstein, in a referenced 1995 book:

Reference to the site chessmetrics.com in 2007 tends to support Brontein's points. Chessmetrics is a site which endeavours to place chess ratings of strong players in historical context, while correcting for different methods of calculation. Formal chess ratings for top players were not formally introduced internationally by the World Chess Federation (FIDE) until 1970; they had been used in the United States and Canada since the 1950s for national play. The lack of ratings made it difficult to compare the relative strengths of players at that time, especially since there had been almost no international chess involving the top players from the different parts of the world during World War II. Chessmetrics puts the Argentinian Najdorf's February 1948 rating at 2797, #2 in the world behind Botvinnik, and Botvinnik had lost badly to Najdorf at Groningen 1946. Boleslavsky hit 2738 at the same time, for #5. Bronstein himself sat at 2721 for #8, and this would rise later in the year after he won the Interzonal. Another very strong player at that time was the Swede Gideon Stahlberg, who was #3 in the world at 2762. None of those four players were included in the 1948 World Championship tournament.

The above seems to be largely speculation by the editor of the paragraph, based on his personal observations. It draws on primary sources to reach a conclusion. I have removed it for now on suspicion that it may be Original research, which is not permitted in Wikipedia articles. If a Reliable source for these speculations can be found, it can be replaced. --Tony Sidaway 16:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted an edit in what appears to be an emerging edit war over the insertion of the following (bolded characters are insertions):

Born in Kuokkala, near Vyborg, the Jewish [1][2] son of a dental technician

This is mainly because the provenance of the sources--two articles on websites--is dubious. The question of whether Botvinnik's ethnic Jewish origin (if verified) should be given so much weight is another matter, but can we first get some reliable sources? Botvinnik was a FIDE champion for over a decade so I'd expect there to be a few decent biographies. --Tony Sidaway 22:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The person (Ioannes Pragensis) who would delete the references, and their citations, based his reason for deletions on his wrong-headed assumption that because B was communist and Soviet, he could not possibly be Jewish. Just check the history page. ("Botvinnik was not Jew but communist and Soviet.") That is patently ridiculous.

His next argument was based on unsupported personal feelings ("he was from a Jewish family, but I doubt whether he personally was a Jew as a member of the communist party"). I'm sorry, but his personal feelings are less valuable as a source than the sources cited.

Finally, I then -- despite the baselessness of his protest -- added citations. They are fine citations, not at all dubious. http://www.chesshistory.com/ is a fine source. Perhaps you wish to contact Edward Winter at chessnotes@chesshistory.com. -- he authored the first article. Here is his Wiki bio -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_G._Winter. There, it is indicated that he is viewed by the FIDE's USA Zone President (your reference to him as a FIDE champion is well taken, but that is why Winter wrote of him) as the world's foremost chess historian. Are you serious when you say that this source is "dubious," and you therefore give greater weight to Pragensis's "personal doubt," after Pragnesis has indicated that it is based on his inablity to comprehend that a person may be both Jewish and Soviet or Communist?

I'm flabbergasted.

The same holds for the other sources.

Really, this is a waste of everyone's time. --Epeefleche 23:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but these are not acceptable sources for Wikipedia. Please revert your edit while we discuss how to source this. --Tony Sidaway 23:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tony, you have it backwards, as indicated above. I have multiple sources, including th efellow that the head of the FIDE USA Zone indicates is the world's foremost chess champion. You have the feelings, unsupported in any way whatsoever, of a fellow.

For goodness sake, what better source than someone who is the world's foremost chess historian. In the eyes of the USA President of FIDE?

Feel free to explore further, but please do not delete such a well-sourced citation while you do it.--Epeefleche 23:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He may be a great historian, but the source is not reliable, it's just a website that attributes statements about Mikhail Botvinnik's ethnicity to Edward G. Winter. If it went off-line tomorrow the source would be gone. Now if he's a published authority it shouldn't be too difficult to run down a proper reference. --Tony Sidaway 23:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I already supplied two others with the citations and the links. And its the website that publishes his articles ... I'm confused. If you wish to link to an internet source, of course it will be a website. Here, you have the website that publishes all the articles that he is famous for. That is about a proper a reference as I can imagine. All urls may go off-line tomorrow. That fact does not make a source NG ... Wikipedia links, citations, and references are all to urls that fall into this category.

Are you really suggesting that the feelings of this fellow who thinks that a Jew cannot also be a Communist or a Soviet, and bases his comments on that, trump a 3-source series of citations, including one to the putative foremost living chess historian? I'm baffled. What are you looking for? A paper form of the article? --Epeefleche 23:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Forget what the other chap is saying. Read what I am saying. Your sources are not reliable. Please find better sources. --Tony Sidaway 23:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's take this from the top. What is "unreliable" about the three (not two -- a third is in the links at the bottom) sources, and makes their provenance "dubious," not "reliable," and "unacceptable" in your opinion?

I am carefull reading what you are saying. You point out that they are "articles on websites." True. So are the vast majority of footnotes, references, and links on Wiki.

And that they attribute statements to Edward G. Winter. Well, actually even better. They are as best we can tell (with any article) the actual Winter article, not an attibution thereto. And it is rare that a Wiki article can cite to the actual article of someone who is reputed to be the foremost historian on the point that the article covers -- so we would appear to be dong better here than the vast majority of footnotes, references, and links on Wiki.

And that if the website were to go "off-line tomorrow the source would be gone." True. So are the vast majority of footnotes, references, and links on Wiki.

Please help me out here. I'm clearly missing something.

It seems to me that we have on this point more citations (3) to sources that include a better source than the vast majority of Wiki citations. Where is the problem?

Thanks.

--Epeefleche 23:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Verifiability does say that self-published websites can be OK if they are created by subject matter experts (which Winter is) and the subject is not a living person (which Botvinnik is not). In any case, I've added a footnote to a journal article that refers to Botvinnik as "the great Soviet Jewish chess master" and quotes him as saying "My situation is complex. By blood I am Jewish, by culture—Russian, by upbringing—Soviet." —Celithemis 00:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, the latter quotation comes from p.247 of part 2 of Garry Kasparov on My Great Predecessors, ISBN 1-85744-342-X. —Celithemis 00:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pragensis has asserted in the Mikhail Botvinnik article that Jews should not be reflected as such if they are Soviet or Communists. He wrote, as his sole basis for his RV of the sourced reference to the fact that Botvinnik was Jewish: "Botvinnik was not Jew but communist and Soviet."

Keeping the original language, I explained that he was Jewish, as cited, and the fact that he was communist and Soviet has absolutely nothing to do with whether he was Jewish.

He supported his next revert with the following novel POV: "he was from a Jewish family, but I doubt whether he personally was a Jew as a member of the communist party...." This suffers from the above problem, and only presents as support for his revert his unsupported POV.

In the interest of resolving this on the discussion page, rather than join others such as Pragensis in their endless series of reverts on this and other pages over the past two day, I move this discussion for the moment to the talk page.

Since it is part of a series of similar instances, relating to other Jewish chess players such as Wilhelm Steinitz, Samuel Reshevsky, and Aron Nimzowitsch, I suggest that discussion be had on the talk page of Reuben Fine, where I have initiated discussion with a more fullsome analysis of the arguments presented.

This is a problem, I would submit, that goes beyond this article. It continues, as Pragensis continues to strip these mentions out of Wiki bios, despite discussion and multiple citations (his answer to the citations is to delete them).

I would suggest that the RVs that I have pointed out by others are bereft of basis or citations.

Therefore, I would ask that they undo their RVs of the sourced material while this discussion takes place on this page.

Furthermore, for the above reasons, I believe that the original language should remain permanently.

I would be grateful for suggestions as to both how to fix this issue on this page, and in general.

Thanks.--Epeefleche 20:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever the final form, the reference to "Jew" must be moved up earlier in the sentence, to clarify that it applies to B -- as it stands, it can be read as applying to his father.

--Epeefleche 22:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here's why I'm deleting the external links:

• FICGS bio - mirror of Wikipedia text, so automatically delete.
• "Cold War Chess," Prospect Magazine, 6/05 - only partly about Botvinnik, contains a rumour which might be of interest,
• "Russian Jewish Encyclopedia" - mentions Botvinnik once. Ridiculous.
• "Sports Book chronicles great Jewish athletes" - Another link which only mentions Botvinnik once
• Jews in Sports bio - At least this one is actually about Botvinnik. But there's nothing of interest that's not in this article. Plus, some information is incorrect.
• "Jews and Chess: 'Ihr Spielt Milkhoma; Ich Spiel Schach,'" by Laurence Posner, 1-2/2000 - mentions Botvinnik once. Are you serious?
• "The Great Jewish Chess Champions," by Harold U. Ribalow & Meir Z. Ribalow - another site which only mentions Botvinnik once. What a joke.
• "Jewish Chess Players" - mentions Botvinnik... well how many times, take a guess, you get the idea.

Rocksong 00:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]