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The use of the WP:label "conspiracy theorist" in the first sentence is inappropriate for this BLP. It is sourced to an organisation which has not merited an entry on Wikipedia. The relevant policy is stated at WP:label "Value-laden labels ... may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution". Burrobert (talk) 00:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Whether a source has a Wikipedia page is not a measure of reliability. There are pages for the Daily Mail and Grayzone, but they're both formally considered unreliable. There are other sources for the statement that Susli is a conpsiracy theorist in addition to the Center For European Policy Analysis.

"Meanwhile, a source Postol had used for his Ghouta investigation had risen in prominence on social media, prompting some journalists to investigate her credibility and, by association, Postol’s. The Syrian-Australian blogger Maram Susli (also known as Syrian Girl and Partisan Girl) advocated a pro-regime stance on Syria and endorsed conspiracy theories about 9/11 Truth, the Holocaust, and the New World Order (Shachtman & Kennedy, 2017)."

from: Culloty, Eileen (2021) Evaluating conspiracy claims as public sphere communication, Journal for Cultural Research, 25:1, 36-50, DOI:10.1080/14797585.2021.1886421

and

"For his part, the credibility of the MIT professor Theodor Postol was undermined by an association with conspiracy theorists. In response to the Khan Sheikhou attack, Postol again accused the US government of using false information to justify airstrikes on Syria.

"However, one of Postol's key sources was revealed to be a regular contributor to conspiracy theory outlets. Postol had characterized Maram Susli, a Syrian-Australian blogger, as a chemistry expert. Investigations by journalists revealed that the chemistry graduate was a a regular Infowars contributor who had endorsed conspiracy theories about 9/11 and the Holocaust and has appeared on programmes with white supremacists including the leader of the Ku Klux Klan (Monbiot 2017; Shachtman and Kennedy 2017).

from Cullotty, Eileen (2020) "Conspiracy and the epistemological challenges of mediatized conflict" in Ben O'Loughlin, Katy Parry, Laura Roselle, Sarah Maltby (eds) Spaces of War, War of Spaces, Bloomsbury.

and

"Another widely reported conspiracy theory came from the network of RT and Infowars-linked personality Maram Susli (know as Syrian Girl or Partisangirl); who suggested that Maxron may have set the fire in order to avoid giving a national address on the Yellow Vest situation in France.

From Hotchkiss, M. B. (2020, March). Notre Dame Fire Conspiracism as Reflective of Russian Ideological Competition with the West. In International Conference on Cyber Warfare and Security (pp. 219-XIV). Academic Conferences International Limited.

and

"Postol est une figure controversée à propos de l’utilisation des armes chimiques en Syrie. Il s’est d’abord fait connaître sur le sujet après l’attaque au sarin du 21 août 2013 à Damas, suggérant que l’attaque avait été mise en scène. Il est devenu particulièrement célèbre quand son propre manque d’expertise en chimie l’a amené à approcher la youtubeuse conspirationniste Maram Susli, également connue sous les noms de Mimi al-Laham, PartisanGirl, Syrian Girl et Syrian Sister, pour obtenir ses conseils sur la fabrication d’armes chimiques."

from: Syrie Factuel (2019, September) "La déclaration de Tulsi Gabbard sur les attaques chimiques en Syrie : Un texte confus et bourré de contradictions", Bellingcat.

and

"However, despite his impressive-sounding title, Postol is no expert on chemical weapons, and had to approach an Assad-supporting conspiracy theorist, Maram Susli, who also goes by several other names including Partisan Girl, for advice in this regard. "

from Amr, Salahi (2019) "Tulsi Loves Assad: How Syria Became a US Presidential Campaign Issue", The New Arab, 22 August 2019

I think we have enough to support the statement. OsFish (talk) 06:00, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Let P be the proposition that an outlet is reliable and Q be the proposition that an outlet has a Wiki page. Then my statement was

P --> Q

or, equivalently,

not Q --> not P

You provided some examples of unreliable sources which have Wiki pages. In other words, you proved the proposition:

There exists a Q such that not P holds.

This does not invalidate the proposition P --> Q. What you need to show is:

There exists a P such that not Q holds.

Are there any such counterexamples?

Btw, none of the sources you mention above appear in Maram’s bio. Burrobert (talk) 07:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a Wikipedia policy that a source is only reliable if it has the English Wikipedia page. Ymblanter (talk) 10:19, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Journal for Cultural Research is RS but has no Wikipedia page. Same for the book I cited. So you have already been presented with such sources. These sources can be added, but I chose not to add them immediately because that particular sentence is currently the subject of a dispute. This dispute was prompted by you edit-warring in violation of the active community sanctions on this page, following my reversion of an edit that you justified by claiming a conspiracy theory was widely accepted as true. I am also very surprised, given that you have been on Wikipedia for seven years, that you did not know that "having a Wikipedia page" is not a necessary criterion for a reliable source. Are you sure you want to continue this dispute in such a manner? OsFish (talk) 03:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I support adding these sources. They all seem to be reliable and there are enough examples for us to use the words in our voice. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:27, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maram_Susli&diff=prev&oldid=1183773032

He knows that the content in the Daily Beast article is correct, and is easily verifiable, so he's attempted to make a deletion of a crucial piece of information, under the cover of his objection to a completely different - and ultimately totally unnecessary - source.

Here's the article in question: https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-kardashian-look-alike-trolling-for-assad

Decolonizetheinternet (talk) 17:00, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The material is unsourced or poorly sourced and must be removed from this BLP. Burrobert (talk) 05:30, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You just violated 1RR. Also: "There is no consensus on the reliability of The Daily Beast."[1] Also, honest question here: do you think it's a good idea for your reputation to simp-edit for someone who habitually works with the likes of David Duke (KKK), Ryan Dawson (Holocaust denier), NazBols, and Duginist fascists? Just curious, like... (talk) 05:58, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I blocked the user indef. Ymblanter (talk) 06:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ABOUTSELF from LinkedIn (i.e. usable for "uncontroversial self-description.":[2]

• She has contributed to publications such as the New Eastern Outlook and media outlets including RT, Press TV, and Al Mayadeen. Susli has appeared as a guest on Satellite News channels France24, SkyNews, Al Mayadeen, Indus News as well as George Galloway’s Mother of all talk shows
• Conference contributions listed:
  • World Online Conference on Multipolarity (April 29, 2023)
  • 4th Western Australia Computational Chemistry Conference (December 2-3 2021)
  • Schiller Institute Conference (March 20 2021)
  • 2nd Western Australia Computational Chemistry Conference (November 13, 2019)
  • Internationale Friedenspolitik Kongress Brandherd Syrien (October 22 2016)
  • Kongress Verteidiger Europas Forum Linz (October 28 2016)

Freelance gigs listed:

• • Sputnik, Al-Mayadeen, GlobalResearch, New Eastern Outlook

Monbiot, George (15 November 2017). "A lesson from Syria: it's crucial not to fuel far-right conspiracy theories". the Guardian. Retrieved 7 November 2023. (WP:RSOPINION)

• Postol and Susli both appeared on a podcast run by the Holocaust “revisionist” Ryan Dawson

Carlston, Morgan (18 February 2016). "Don't Doubt the Iron Dome". bellingcat. Retrieved 7 November 2023.

• Even though there appears to be mainstream acceptance of Postol’s criticism, he also has affiliations with fringe individuals, appearing in YouTube videos with 9/11 conspiracy theorist Ryan Dawson, and (along with Richard Lloyd) assisting Assad propagandist Maram Susli in her attempts to disprove allegations of Syrian President Assad’s alleged use of chemical weapons in August 2013. Both also assisted Seymour Hersh in his widely criticized Ghouta articles. When questioned over Susli’s alleged Holocaust denial, Postol said “When I got statements from outside people saying she was a Holocaust denier, quite frankly I wasn’t going to ask her”.

Holt, Jared (30 October 2019). "Angelo John Gage Spreads Hate with a Twitter Blue-Check". Right Wing Watch. Retrieved 7 November 2023.

• On his YouTube channel, Gage has hosted anti-Semitic pundits and white nationalist pundits, including E. Michael Jones, Jean-François Gariépy, Kevin MacDonald, Adam Green, Ryan Dawson, and Tomislav Sunić, and conspiracy theorist Maram Susli.

Burley, Shane (2022-10-25). No Pasaran: Antifascist Dispatches from a World in Crisis. AK Press. ISBN 1-84935-483-9.

• Susli herself has far right sympathies, appearing on podcasts hosted by [David] Duke and having been interviewed by [Richard] Spencer and Lana Lokteff.

Guckert, Élie (21 August 2020). "Le massacre chimique de la Ghouta, cas d'école du conspirationnisme pro-Assad". Conspiracy Watch (in French). Retrieved 7 November 2023. (considered RS by fr.wikipedia)

• Dans une interview accordée au complotiste Ryan Dawson en 2014 au sujet de la jeune blogueuse [Susli], le chercheur du MIT [Postol] lâche sans sourciller : « Je savais qu’elle était chimiste car je la suivais sur Twitter. Je pouvais voir à sa voix qu’elle était une chimiste aguerrie ».

Higgins, Eliot (2021-05-27). We Are Bellingcat. London Oxford New York New Delhi Sydney: Bloomsbury Publishing. ISBN 1-5266-4506-8.

• Espousing baseless theories about 911 and more, [Susli] has appeared on the podcast of former KKK leader David Duke as well as that of Ryan Dawson, who denies many aspects of the Holocaust, calling the gas chambers 'extraordinary bullshit'

BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:01, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The statement at issue was "She has published in the Duginist Journal of Eurasian Affairs, as well as numerous far-right and neo-Nazi podcasts and media networks". The only reasonable source provided was CNN, which only mentioned Susli in passing, saying "Spencer interviewing Maram Susli ... who has contributed to conspiracy site InfoWars". Mention of Spencer is probably not DUE based on this one reference. Nevertheless, I included it as the only bit of relevant info from the sources. Even if the Daily Beast were suitable for a BLP, there was nothing in that source that would support the statement that was at issue. An additional point is that none of this was mentioned in the body of the article, making its inclusion in the lead problematic, even if there were sources.

Anyway, what additional content do you think should be added to the body of the article, and possibly the lead, based on these new sources? Burrobert (talk) 14:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently mentions Spencer but not Duke and Dawson. We have two sources for Spencer, two for Duke, four for Dawson and one for Gage, so I think they should be added to the body, with a brief summary in the lead. We don't have a decent source for Eurasian Affairs, so that should not be added. Something has happened to the France24 ref in the reverts so that needs restoring.

Different topic, but I think the New Eastern Outlook section is not due in the lead, and should move to the body. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:35, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My comments below are based on the excepts you have provided.

What we can say based on these sources?:

Monbiot’s opinion piece: We could say Susli appeared on a podcast run by Ryan Dawson. However, Ryan Dawson does not seem to have a wiki bio so readers won't get much information from that.

Iron Dome: We have already mentioned Postol and Maram’s collaboration. Other relevant content from this article is opinion, in one case second-hand opinion.

Right Wing Watch: I am unfamiliar with Angelo John Gage and he does not appear to have a wiki bio. Not sure that the source is suitable for a BLP (see below), but even if it is, all it says is that Maram appeared on the YouTube channel of someone who does not have a wiki bio. Is that noteworthy?

Reasons why the Right Wing Watch source may be unsuitable for a BLP.

• It has a huge bias as it is run by the advocacy group People for the American Way
• The cited article only mentions Maram in passing.
• It is unclear whether the site it has an editorial process.

Shane Burley: Can’t comment on the quality of the source. The editor, Shane Burley, does not appear to have a wiki bio. Apparently, the book is written by "antifascist researchers". Assuming the source is usable for facts, we could say Maram appeared in podcasts hosted by David Duke and has been interviewed by Richard Spencer and Lana Lokteff. We would provide a wiki link to the three interviewers.

Conspiracy Watch: Does not include anything new as we already mention Postol and Maram’s collaboration. Don’t know anything about Conspiracy Watch. It does not appear to have a wiki bio in the English wiki but has a large page on the French wiki. It seems to be run by two people, Rudy Reichstadt, who has no wiki bio, and Valérie Igounet, who does. It seems to focus on conspiracy theory, anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial.

The other bellingcat source: Confirms that Maram appeared on a podcast of David Duke and Ryan Dawson. The rest is opinion.

So, in summary we can say that Maram appeared on podcasts, YouTube videos etc. hosted by Ryan Dawson, Angelo John Gage, David Duke, Richard Spencer, Lana Lokteff. We then have various opinions about these people. We don’t need to say anything about David Duke, Richard Spencer and Lana Lokteff as they have wiki bios. We would need to use BLP policies to determine what we could say about Ryan Dawson and Angelo John Gage. We also need to consider whether descriptions of them are relevant to Maram’s bio.

I agree about moving the description of New Eastern Outlook to the body. The unattributed description of the NEO is sourced to the RAND corporation and the US Department of Treasury. We should attribute that description if it is to be retained. Her contributions to NEO ended in 2017.

I found one article by Maram on Dugin’s site ([3]) but don’t see a way of searching the Eurasian Affairs journal to see if Maram contributed there as well. Burrobert (talk) 12:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Have moved this detail from lead to body with concise summary in lead. I think body version needs some work including attribution re the characterisations of these platforms (current version might be SYNTH). I think fine to add a very minimalist mention of the podcasts too but will leave for now in case other editors want to weigh in. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:48, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. That's a good start. As you said, let's see if there are any other comments or suggestions. Burrobert (talk) 16:06, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]