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This needs to be urgently corrected, because the information provided by the article in its present form is misleading. [[User:Josep Amunt i Avall|Josep Amunt i Avall]] ([[User talk:Josep Amunt i Avall|talk]]) 20:18, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
This needs to be urgently corrected, because the information provided by the article in its present form is misleading. [[User:Josep Amunt i Avall|Josep Amunt i Avall]] ([[User talk:Josep Amunt i Avall|talk]]) 20:18, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

:This article is about Arab citizens of Israel. Although Israel has annexed East Jerusalem, this act is not recognised by other states, and Palestinians in East Jerusalem do not live in Israel. <span style="font-family: Papyrus">[[User:RolandR|RolandR]] ([[User talk:RolandR|talk]])</span> 23:49, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:49, 17 March 2023
Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
  • Expand : Muslims, Christians sub-sections: Please add a little about institutions, history, and towns
  • Verify : Please add reliable sources for all of the information (do not delete info please, look for verification)

What should we call the new page for Israelis that identify as Palestinian?

As already indicated "Palestinian citizens of Israel" works for me (we have plenty of refs including scholarly refs for that)Selfstudier (talk) 19:03, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Since there is no official records on how many Palestinian "citizens" you have, how about Palestinian identity in Israel? That can actually be an interesting article about the development of the Palestinian identity in Israel and how it was represented in art and politics. People like Mahmoud Darwish would have their mention there.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:22, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that "identify as" should figure prominently in the lead as people seem to be confusing this with "are", the exact stats are not really the issue here, we just need to move on from Balfour's "non-Jewish communities", this is 2021. Selfstudier (talk) 22:20, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Palestinians in Israel or Palestinian citizens of Israel. Im fine just splitting that off in to a new article. And having this be an overview of each of the subarticles. nableezy - 20:33, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Palestinian citizens of Israel. The other two options do not work: (1) “Palestinian identity in Israel” fails WP:CONSISTENT as all Wikipedia people articles are about identity (e.g. Jewishness is an identity; so equally the article Israeli Jews should not be called “Jewish identity in Israel”); and (2) “Palestinians in Israel” would include undocumented Gazans and West Bankers. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:46, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like the move will be closed no consensus (which is silly as the initial closure was a pretty blatantly incorrect reading of the discussion), but in that case Id say just start splitting this off to a new article and have this be the parent article covering Druze, Palestinian, Lebanese and any other subgrouping. nableezy - 22:26, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What about majorty of of Israeli Arabs who do not self-identify as Palestinian, are you going to leave them here or move them to your WP:POVFORK? “WarKosign” 05:52, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What Nableezy said seems a clear answer to this.Selfstudier (talk) 12:11, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nableezy seems to intent to create an article for Israeli Arabs who are not Druze, Bedouin, Labenese, etc labeling them all as Palestinian, whether this is how they want to be described or not. “WarKosign” 18:16, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The intended new article is for Israeli citizens who identify as Palestinian, no labeling by Wikpedians required.Selfstudier (talk) 18:22, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Whether or not all editors here consider those who identify as Palestinian to be full human beings, they still deserve representation. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:08, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You keep implying that someone does not considers Israeli Arabs "full human beings". Care you explain who? What is a non-full human being, anyway? An empty human being? A Hobbit? “WarKosign” 09:56, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
See Israelis#Ethnic and religious groups. In that list, the Palestinians in Israel are the only major group without their own main article. No reasonable person would oppose such a thing. Unfortunately, there are a significant number of people who deny the Palestinians their own identity - see for example the racist book A History of the Palestinian People. There is no place for this kind of sentiment on Wikipedia. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:32, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What majority of Arabs do not self-identify as Palestinians? The Druze are covered at Israeli Druze. The Lebanese are covered at Lebanese in Israel. That you insist on calling the people who do self-identify as Palestinian as "Israeli Arabs" is a personal problem. The completely horseshit claim that Nableezy seems to intent to create an article for Israeli Arabs who are not Druze, Bedouin, Labenese, etc labeling them all as Palestinian, whether this is how they want to be described or not is just that. I intend to have an article on the Palestinian citizens of Israel. That would be a child article of this one, as this one also covers Israeli Druze and Negev Bedouin and Lebanese in Israel, distinct populations with distinct circumstances. nableezy - 18:42, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Majority of Israeli Arabs to not defined themselves as 'Palestinian', yet you call them all 'Palestinians'. I respect the right of Israeli Arabs to call themselves whatever they want, and so should you.“WarKosign” 19:07, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Im not entirely sure why you insist on continuing to ignore the better sources here. You continue to link to a poll by the Jewish People Policy Institute, a partisan NGO, and ignore the actual academic expertise here (only 35.9 per cent in 2019 defined themselves as Israeli Arabs compared to 47.1 per cent as Palestinians in Israel and 14.8 per cent as just Palestinians). You can continue to point to one survey by an unreliable source, but the actual academic experts on the topic show your fairly obvious bias in this regard. And then you have the gall to claim that you respect the right of Israeli Arabs to call themselves whatever they want while repeatedly calling them what sources show they emphatically reject. nableezy - 19:19, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Citing an organization whose primary goal is "to ensure the thriving of the Jewish People and the Jewish civilization" as a source on Palestinian identity is absurd. Plus their survey took a sample of just 273 "non Jews", all by telephone, and the enormous change in the numbers since the year prior shows how meaningless they are. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really care what this article is called or if a new one is created, but the above is a pile of baloney that needs correcting. A sample of 273 people is more than enough for a statistically meaningful result, with a margin of error of +/- 6%. The disparity between two results year after year does not, in and of itself, say anything about the validity of the methodology or result. This is doubly so when the survey conductors acknowledge the disparity and provide a number of hypotheses that explain them. Finally, if it is absurd to rely on an NGO with a certain agenda as a source, it is just as absurd to rely on another survey by an NGO, which starts with a premise that "Established in 2015, this government has taken steps to weaken democracy". Inf-in MD (talk) 23:39, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is the work of an established expert, Sammy Smooha, not the view of a partisan NGO. Kindly stop making things up. Thanks in advance. nableezy - 16:44, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This survey is the work of the Israeli Democracy Institute, an NGO with an agenda, just as I wrote : [1]. Yes, a person (Smoocha) conducted it, just like a person (Fuchs) conducted the JPPI survey. Fuchs is every bit an expert as Smoocha. Kindly take care to read more carefully, and stop the incivility. Inf-in MD (talk) 17:29, 19 November 2021 (UTC) [reply]
No, again, it is the work of Sammy Smooha, somebody who has academically been tracking this topic for 2 decades and is widely cited on the topic. Camil Fuchs is indeed widely cited, but on an entirely different topic. nableezy - 17:55, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
From the above link: "The Index was inaugurated in 2003 under the aegis of the University of Haifa and became a joint project of IDI and the University of Haifa in 2012". Inf-in MD (talk) 18:10, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know what the word "joint" means? nableezy - 19:34, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, so? Inf-in MD (talk) 21:25, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Because you bolded a joint project of IDI but neglected and the University of Haifa. Beyond that, as repeatedly said, Smooha himself is an established expert in this field. See his work and how often he is cited. Are you seriously challenging the reliability of his work? Fuchs is certainly an expert in some things, however he is not published academically in this topic at all. So no, he is not every bit an expert as Smoocha (sic) on this topic. If youd like to appeal to his expertise, then the topic that covers would be what he is actually published academically. Which, again for the obtuse here, is not this topic. nableezy - 21:51, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not challenging the inclusion of Smooha, I am debunking the nonsense that a sample of 273 people is not statistically valid, or that a survey conducted by an academic expert in statistics, who is also described as Israel's leading pollster/polling expert, can be dismissed because he did it on behalf of an NGO. Inf-in MD (talk) 21:58, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
These “273 non-Jews” could have all been in Daliyat al-Karmel or in Umm al-Fahm. The two places would give very different answers. For the 273 to have been statistically relevant the locations of the respondents would have have to have been carefully balanced. Given the agenda of the Jewish Nationalist organization who funded the research, this seems unlikely. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:28, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you take the time to read the actual survey materials before continuing to spout this ignorant nonsense? "Respondents comprised a representative sample of the two populations surveyed" [2], and compare with the near-identical wording of the Smooha survey -" representing a representative cross-section of the adult Arab population". Inf-in MD (talk) 23:27, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Smooha is academically published and regularly cited on the topic of identity among Israel's Palestinian-Arab population. Fuchs is not. As such, Fuchs himself is not a reliable source for that topic. The publisher, a partisan NGO, is likewise not a reliable source. Fuchs has never been published, much less had relevant publications cited, on this topic. Smooha has. So no, again, not the same expertise on this topic. nableezy - 22:37, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is not an academic, peer reviewed publication by Smooha, but a survey project of IDI. IDI is every bit the partisan NGO that JPPI is. If IDI's survey is ok, so is JPPI's. Inf-in MD (talk) 23:30, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sammy Smooha is an established expert on this topic, and if he were writing about it in his blog it would be reliable. And no, this is a joint project between the IDI and the University of Haifa. And, again, run by an established expert in the field. So no, not the same, despite your best efforts to obfuscate and dissemble. I hope you get the difference here, because I do. nableezy - 13:13, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not arguing against including Smooha, so you can stop repeating that strawman. Inf-in MD (talk) 13:28, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just Smooha >>> Fuchs is what I see, no strawman.Selfstudier (talk) 13:35, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Citing the same easily refuted sourcing as you already cited in the discussion above. They are entitled to a page whatever the percentage is and it's certainly not 7%, citing that just makes you look silly.Selfstudier (talk) 19:22, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So they are "entitled" to be called what you decided they should be called, according to a cherry-picked source. I see. “WarKosign” 09:53, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I supplied several sources besides that already and there are plenty more as you will soon see. Your continued objections hold no water. Wait for the page to go up and then you can say your piece (again).Selfstudier (talk) 13:53, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Lol, we're the ones citing an academic source that google scholar shows is cited widely. Youre the one cherry picking a partisan NGO. nableezy - 16:40, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • So we ought to make a start on this and the initial page Palestinian citizens of Israel is up, all should feel free to improve the article, add sources and so on.Selfstudier (talk) 11:49, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The new page is a logical result of the discussions on this page and yet two editors, a drive by IP and Inf-in MD have reverted its creation. As it says on the new article talk page, it is a work in progress, a base to work off, the end result being that material here will just be a summary of what is there and linked out to it (in other words the new article is intended as a spinout article, not a POV fork.)Selfstudier (talk) 18:11, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Number of citizens

Currently the first sentence of the third paragraph has "the Arab population in 2019 was estimated at 1,890,000, representing 20.95%" and Section #4 has the numbers from 2006, 2012 and 2019. The Central Bureau of Statistics Media Release Population of Israel on the Eve of 2021 https://www.cbs.gov.il/he/mediarelease/DocLib/2020/438/11_20_438e.pdf has 1,956,000 (21.1%) as of 31 December 2020. Should that be added to or replace the earlier years? Assuming there'll be a similar press release at the end of next month should the number in it be added or replace the above? Mcljlm (talk) 05:17, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There are more recent numbers from CBS: In Rosh Hashana 2021 it was reported there are "over 1.98 million Arabs, who account for 21%" (full report in Hebrew). “WarKosign” 06:47, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Eve of 2022 figure: "about 1.995 million Arabs, 21.1%" CBS Hebrew media release [3] Mcljlm (talk) 01:45, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
CBS English media release Eve of 2022: https://www.cbs.gov.il/he/mediarelease/DocLib/2021/447/11_21_447e.pdf Mcljlm (talk) 11:51, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://strategicassessment.inss.org.il/en/articles/israeli-demographics/ Detailed analysis through 2020. Selfstudier (talk) 12:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"self-declared"

Why would only Palestinians be "self-declared" as opposed to any other group? nableezy - 13:59, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted that, also attributed and sourced the material on "Israeli-Arabs" and "Arab-Israelis". nableezy - 14:11, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:36, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Population evolution

Damn, from 200k after the 48 war to 1.8 million today? That's an increase nearing 900%?? How did that happen? That has to be covered in further detail in the article!! Synotia (moan) 09:37, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I replied to the same question at Israel just now. Israel includes East Jerusalem Arabs in its count. Ispop went from 1 to 9 mill (their figures) between 1950 and 2019, that's 9 times as well. Selfstudier (talk) 10:05, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure but it is largely due to Jewish immigration, most notably in the 1950s and 1990s. Also it includes the Arabs in question.
Are Palestinians from the world moving to Israel? Synotia (moan) 10:52, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is a discussion of the relative pop growth rates in the source I gave at Israel talk page. For instance "Jewish immigration contributed to 44.7% of the increase achieved in the population between 15 May 1948 and the end of 2007" and As a consequence, immigration also brought about an increase in natural growth so that it became the main source of population growth."
As for the Arabs "These figures demonstrate the continuous diminution in 1948 Arab growth rates, and this decrease has been accelerating during the last decade, so that it has notreached more than half (or slightly more) of the highest rate ever reached. Despite this significant decrease, however, Arab growth rate in 2007 remained at 186% of the Jewish growth rate. The average growth rate was confined only to natural growth; that is, the difference between the number of births and the number of deaths during the period extending from 15 May 1948 and the end of 2007, and this was slightly less than the average Jewish growth rate which encompasses both natural growth and net immigration"
Anyway, it needs looking at in depth, just looking at raw pop figures can be very misleading. Selfstudier (talk) 11:01, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not all Israeli Arabs are citizens

While it is true that there are 2 million Arab residents in Israel, not all of them are citizens. More specifically, the vast majority of East Jerusalem Arabs don't hold Israeli citizenship and don't have the right to it (they can ask for it, but the majority of applications are rejected).

This needs to be urgently corrected, because the information provided by the article in its present form is misleading. Josep Amunt i Avall (talk) 20:18, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Arab citizens of Israel. Although Israel has annexed East Jerusalem, this act is not recognised by other states, and Palestinians in East Jerusalem do not live in Israel. RolandR (talk) 23:49, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Quelle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F1145237218