Talk:Eddie Van Halen: Difference between revisions
FlightTime (talk | contribs) →Keyboardist: Nope |
EVH was Dutch-American when he became notable, not American-only |
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An article just came out and it has some new information about his death. Is it a reliable source? [[User:MikaelaArsenault|MikaelaArsenault]] ([[User talk:MikaelaArsenault|talk]]) 14:00, 13 December 2020 (UTC) |
An article just came out and it has some new information about his death. Is it a reliable source? [[User:MikaelaArsenault|MikaelaArsenault]] ([[User talk:MikaelaArsenault|talk]]) 14:00, 13 December 2020 (UTC) |
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== Dutch-American vs. American (only) == |
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Eddie Van Halen was a Dutch national and citizen from the age of 0, and an American national (we do not know if he obtained citizenship) from the age of 6. When he became famous, he was a Dutch-American national. This is called [[dual nationality]]. Two different people have reverted "Dutch-American" citing [[MOS:ETHNICITY]], but it clearly states "if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable." In this case, that means "Dutch-American" is correct as EVH was a Dutch national 'and' an American national when he became notable. That he became notable while residing in the United States is completely irrelevant to his nationality. |
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Please let me know if anyone doesn't understand this or objects to stating the "Dutch-American" nationality that EVH had when he became notable. [[User:Omnibus|Omnibus]] ([[User talk:Omnibus|talk]]) 13:13, 12 April 2022 (UTC) |
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Born in Amsterdam or Nijmegen?
I was looking in older, pre-Wikipedia books to see what they said about Eddie's place of birth. Some sources list Amsterdam, more list Nijmegen. DLManiac said on my user talk page that Alex and Eddie were both born in Amsterdam, then the family moved to Nijmegen. I don't see a cite for that sequence, but I'm open to whatever shows up. In the article, we need to summarize the published sources.
- 2004 History of Rock and Roll, page 190. Says both Alex and Eddie were born in Nijmegen. From textbook publishers Kendall Hunt.
- 2003 Rock N Roll Gold Rush: A Singles Un-Cyclopedia says Eddie was born in Nijmegen. By Maury Dean, a PhD musicologist, a writer of pop music books.
- 2002 People Almanac 2003 published by People magazine. It says on page 473 that Eddie was born in Amsterdam.
- 2001 Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock. On page 1028 it says Alex was born in Amsterdam. Limited to Google Book snippet previews, I can't confirm Eddie.
- 2000 Music critic Mikal Gilmore's Night Beat: A Shadow History of Rock & Roll. Gilmore writes on page 309 that both brothers were born in Nijmegen.
- 1996 The Rock Who's Who, page 701. "Edward Van Halen (b. Jan. 26, 1957, Nijmegen, Netherlands)"
- 1995 The Guinness Encyclopedia of Popular Music, volume 4. Says Nijmegen for both brothers.
- 1994 Pioneers of Rock and Roll: 100 Artists who Changed the Face of Rock, page 273. Says Nijmegen for Eddie.
- 1989 Contemporary Musicians, page 269, Gale Research. Says both brothers were born in Nijmegen.
To me, it looks like we have two options. The one I suggest is to weigh the sources and say Eddie was born in Nijmegen. The other option is to acknowledge that some sources say Eddie was born in Amsterdam while others say he was born in Nijmegen. In that case we would list the sources, and even name some explicitly for the reader. Binksternet (talk) 21:03, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'll reiterate that the story has always felt like Eddie was born in Nijmegen and I only recently started to doubt that when this page was changed with the following source:
- Dutch Newspaper listing births in Amsterdam. This is the one that seems like the best source.
- I also found this
- This site quotes "the family moved to Nijmegen shortly after the birth of Eddie". Granted I know nothing of the reliability here.
- The conclusion I draw from the first source I listed is that he really was born in Amsterdam, but moved to Nijmegen shortly after, and somewhere along the line, all of these rock biography websites created the story that he was therefore born in Nijmegen, and it has been accepted as unsupported fact as a result. I am not emotionally attached to this narrative, that's just the way I have viewed this new source. DLManiac (talk) 07:44, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- The Dutch newspaper source is impressive and clearly the better reference. I have just substituted it on the article. Ibaman (talk) 20:32, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Glad we worked it out. Binksternet (talk) 20:40, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
So above it is sourced he was born in Amsterdam. Why is the phrase "Dutch-American" being reverted to simply American? He clearly was not born in the USA, the article says he didn't come to the USA until he was 7 years old. Maybe we need to have a definitive decision here in talk. Trackinfo (talk) 07:56, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
- to me, the guidelines at MOS:ETHNICITY answer your question EVH is notabke for being an american guitarist in an american band.—DLManiac (talk) 09:03, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Disputing the genre of glam metal
Although there are sources calling Van Halen a glam metal band (also known as hair metal or pop metal), the sources do not describe Eddie as a glam guitarist. They call him a rock guitarist, as well as hard rock and heavy metal. Whatever reason that the band can be described as glam metal (which is supported by a few sources, disputed by others, and not mentioned in a lot of them), the label has not been placed on Eddie by observers writing about him. Binksternet (talk) 00:33, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- I agree DLManiac (talk) 03:10, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think "glam metal" is a distinct category of guitar playing. Glam metal guitar is basically edgy hard rock guitar and usually performed nowhere near the skill level of EVH. However, we are talking about genres which EVH's music falls under, thereby genres he is associated with - not necessarily what type of player he was. Van Halen's music, i.e. the music that Eddie created, falls under multiple categories, one of which is certainly glam metal. PJM (talk) 13:16, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- My position is that the glam label cannot be placed in the infobox because it is not used to describe Eddie himself in reliable sources. Certainly we can describe his band in all the glory of their various genres, but we would do it in prose in the article. When we assign a genre to Eddie, we pull that genre from descriptions of him alone. To do otherwise is synthesis. Binksternet (talk) 14:33, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- I think all the genres his music fit into should be included. Look at Steve Vai's info box. It gives a complete picture of where his playing ventured...making it more informative and encyclopedic. PJM (talk) 16:11, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- Steve Vai's infobox as you found it earlier today violated Template:Infobox_musical_artist in that it listed more than four genres. It violated MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE by listing genres that were not supported by article text. I removed those just now. Thanks for pointing it out.
- The infobox should only contain simple facts, supported by verifiable article text. It should not be used as a replacement for article text. Nowhere in the Eddie Van Halen or Steve Vai biographies is glam discussed. Binksternet (talk) 17:37, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- speaking as a lifelong VH fan, I reckon David Lee Roth is the godfather of glam metal; glam metal is Dave Lee, in a sense. "Van Hagar" is pure classic hard rock and not glam. But, yes, this is fan's talk, not suitable for an encyclopedia, but worth of mention for the merit of achieving consensus in a talk page. Ibaman (talk) 22:27, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I think all the genres his music fit into should be included. Look at Steve Vai's info box. It gives a complete picture of where his playing ventured...making it more informative and encyclopedic. PJM (talk) 16:11, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- My position is that the glam label cannot be placed in the infobox because it is not used to describe Eddie himself in reliable sources. Certainly we can describe his band in all the glory of their various genres, but we would do it in prose in the article. When we assign a genre to Eddie, we pull that genre from descriptions of him alone. To do otherwise is synthesis. Binksternet (talk) 14:33, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
Keyboardist
More important than the topic above IMHO, the infobox should mention keyboards as well as guitar. The riff for "Dancing in the Street" was written and performed on Minimoog, And the Cradle Will Rock... was written and performed on Wurlitzer electric piano through a Marshall amp, Jump (Van Halen song) was written and performed on Oberheim OB-Xa, while Dreams (Van Halen song), Why Can't This Be Love and Love Walks In are with Oberheim OB-8. Eddie also wrote When It's Love and Right Now (Van Halen song) on keyboards. It surely merits the full mention I've just added in the article. Ibaman (talk) 23:06, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- He is known as a guitarist, not a keyboardist. - FlightTime (open channel) 22:47, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Some new information about his death
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/eddie-van-halen-cremated-ashes-delivered-to-his-son/
An article just came out and it has some new information about his death. Is it a reliable source? MikaelaArsenault (talk) 14:00, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Dutch-American vs. American (only)
Eddie Van Halen was a Dutch national and citizen from the age of 0, and an American national (we do not know if he obtained citizenship) from the age of 6. When he became famous, he was a Dutch-American national. This is called dual nationality. Two different people have reverted "Dutch-American" citing MOS:ETHNICITY, but it clearly states "if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable." In this case, that means "Dutch-American" is correct as EVH was a Dutch national 'and' an American national when he became notable. That he became notable while residing in the United States is completely irrelevant to his nationality.
Please let me know if anyone doesn't understand this or objects to stating the "Dutch-American" nationality that EVH had when he became notable. Omnibus (talk) 13:13, 12 April 2022 (UTC)