There had never been any recorded use of the term "Chickenhawk" (political meaning) before the September 11, 2001 attacks; the term was coined after the war in Afghanistan began, in response to the fact that many of those leading the call for war there (and later in Iraq) had avoided at least combat duty, if not military service altogether, during the Vietnam War. Thus "Chickenhawk" is every bit as particular a political term as "bloody shirt," a term used by Democrats to lament the Republican accusation, often levelled at them between the end of the Civil War and approximately 1900, that the Democratic Party was to blame for starting the Civil War; the Democrats would accuse the Republicans of "waving the bloody shirt," a concept which itself originates from Shakespeare's play Julius Caesar, in which Mark Antony held up the bloody toga of the murdered Caesar in an effort to incite ordinary Roman citizens against Brutus and Cassius. Just as it would be impossible to write a concise article about the term "bloody shirt" without making note of its origins, so any article about "Chickenhawks" would be likewise incomplete without detailing the particular circumstances under which the latter term originated.

And a Google search will prove, beyond any statistical shadow of a doubt, that the term "Chickenhawks" was never used in a political context prior to the winter of 2001-2002, if even that long ago (its use began in earnest only after Operation Iraqi Freedom commenced on March 19, 2003).

Not so - it was used many times during the 2000 presidential elections, as http://www.google.com/groups?as_q=chickenhawk&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=9&as_maxy=2001&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en demonstrates. I've found other references suggesting that the term actually dates back to the late 1980s. -- ChrisO 18:53, 24 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely not true. The film American History X, from 1998, uses it within it's political context during the confrontation of Derek Vinyard and Cameron Alexander; Vinyard tells Cameron that he is a "Chickenhawk," recruiting youths to do his "warring" (hawkishness) for him. Although it is a fictional scene in a fictional movie, it is no less a true political usage in this context than, for example, the aforementioned "bloody shirt," taken from a fictional (albeit based on true events) story of Julius Caesar.

Obviously the term must date back to the early 1940s, seeing as how someone says FDR was labelled a chickenhawk. -Willmcw 04:39, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

OK, I dropped FDR. But what about Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and John Paul Stevens? They may not have served in the military, but are they hawks? Are women like Ginsburg who did not volunteer for the WACs now considered to have been cowardly? Unless I hear a defense, I'll drop them too. -Willmcw 07:26, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Likewise, why is Clinton being referred to as a hawk? Alai 04:05, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The list refers to people who have been called Chickenhawks. FDR was NEVER called a chickenhawk. To claim he was called one is revisionism. The term has only been around for about 20 years. Let's stick to people who have actually been called chickenhawks during their lifetimes. Kingturtle 07:08, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The list title is "People Who Have Been Called Chickenhawks." It does not say "People Who Have Been Called Chickenhawks in Their Lifetimes." The definition of the list makes it to where anybody can call anybody a chickenhawk and in order to keep the list "accurate" their name should be on there. This article is also prone to partisan sniping, which is why I'm considering nominating it for deletion. However, on the flip side, this article does give us an insight to the politics of America. Brownman40 07:18, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If we're going to give an insight into the politics of America, then lets only list those who have been called chickenhawks during their lifetimes. It will serve readers better to see who has actually been called a chickenhawk. it is a disservice to readers to list every potential chickenhawk in world history. Kingturtle 07:21, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

IMHO, I think I know why FDR was put on the list. It was to show that we've had Presidents in times of war that have not served in the military. And frankly, that's a very valid point. The article itself (list excluded) I think is NPOV. But when that list is listing conservative commentators and Supreme Court Justices, you know that it's just political mud-slinging. My point of view is if we are going to have this mud-slinging, then let's allow to be bipartisan at least. Otherwise, delete the list or the whole article altogether. Brownman40 07:30, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If you want to see a list of who served and who didn't, we already have two articles for that: List of U.S. Presidents by military service and List of U.S. Presidents by military rank. The term chickenhawk was not around during FDR's time. we should be listing names of people actually called the term during their political careers. Otherwise we'd have to put Cincinnatus on the list and others from history. Kingturtle 07:45, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The word blue wasn't around 6,000 years ago. Yet, the sky was still blue during the daytime, right? Word applicability can be retroactive. By the definition of the list, it is accurate if even one person labels FDR a chickenhawk to put him on the list. But this doesn't strike at the heart of this problem. This list is inherently a place for people of different political ideologies to get into pissing contests. I feel currently, let's remove the list altogether but keep the rest of the article. Otherwise, FDR should stay on the list as it is accurate based on how the list is currently defined. Brownman40 08:06, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

well, i need to get to sleep. but tomorrow i will start to remove other names from the list. governors and judges have no say over military policy, and they should be removed from the list as well. a chickenhawk is someone who did not serve in the military, but either votes for war, commands a war, or designs a war. Kingturtle 08:09, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

FDR fits that definition. :) Brownman40 08:13, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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i have split this article up into separate articles. it makes it more clear to the reader. Kingturtle 18:32, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As an editor who can be blamed for precipitating this recent set of changes, let me say that I agree that having a list is unnecessary and contentious. Lists of "people called 'X'" are not very helpful in general. If Wikipedia had been around in the 1950s would we have had a list of "people labelled 'Commies'"? I hope not. -Willmcw 21:22, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Kingturtle, I think your disambiguation is a good idea, but the trouble is that you did it as a cut-and-paste. As a result, the article history is all here, at what's now the dab page, even though almost all of it related to the political meaning of the term. Anyone who wants to address the issue of naming specific people will be proceeding in a vacuum, unaware of the extensive material that was added and then deleted. (I personally don't agree with the wholesale elimination of specific examples, but the question should be addressed in its proper context, i.e., what was in the article at one point, what some editors added and removed, their edit summaries, etc.).

Here's how I see preserving the appropriate history:

1. Move Chickenhawk to Chickenhawk (politics). (This article title is at least as good as Chickenhawk (politician) because we shouldn't take the position that any politician actually is a chickenhawk; it should be considered a charge that's made in politics, the same basis on which Poverty pimp survived a VfD vote. Incidentally, that's the reason that I'll be editing the first sentence to identify "chickenhawk" as a pejorative label.)
2. Copy Kingturtle's dab text and restore it to Chickenhawk, replacing the automatic redirect created by the page move.
3. Copy the text that Kingturtle moved to Chickenhawk (politician) and make it the text of Chickenhawk (politics).
4. Explain changes on appropriate talk pages.

If things work as I expect, the page history of Chickenhawk (politics) will show the edits that added FDR, Supreme Court justices, etc., and the edits that deleted them from the list, and then the larger change that eliminated the list entirely. I'll now undertake this and see how it turns out. JamesMLane 22:29, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

OK, this seems to have worked. I should have added that Chickenhawk (politician) now redirects to Chickenhawk (politics), and the wikilink on Kingturtle's dab page has been changed accordingly.

Another aspect of a page move is to fix links. I won't bother with links on talk pages, but I'll start in on the links to Chickenhawk. It's tedious work, though, and I may lose interest partway through -- anyone who wants to help, feel free! JamesMLane 22:59, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whew! What a job. Thanks for cleaning up the mess. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:29, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The originsection only says when people first started using chickenhawk. I add that chicken means coward and hawk means militaristic so therefore chickenhawk means militaristic coward.

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— Ŭalabio 22:53, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)

Your etymology is clearly correct, but does that really require spelling out? The rest of your addition (and the tone, throughout) was rather heatedly NPOV and unencyclopaedic. Alai 23:36, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dear Ŭalabio, [Entomology]] is the study of insects. Etymology is the study of the meaning/origin of words. I also agree that the tone of your edits is very charged to the point where they are quite clearly NPOV. Including the etymology may be appropriate is done in an encyclopaedic manner, but your subjective judgment that people labeled as chickenhawks are cowards is clearly not encyclopaedic content. —thames 00:54, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)