The following discussion is an archived record of a user conduct request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

A summary of the debate may be found at the bottom of the page.

In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 18:06, 8 October 2011 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 21:18, 28 January 2025 (UTC).

• Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk · contribs · logs)

Users should not edit other people's summaries or views, except to endorse them. All signed comments other than your own view or an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page.

This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

This is a summary written by users who have initiated the request for comment. It should spell out exactly what the changes they'd like to see in the user, or what questions of behavior should be the focus.

• User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz (KW) voluntarily agrees
  • to be more aware of civility in interaction with other editors, and to refrain from innuendo
  • to restrain himself when it comes to discussing younger editors, emailing oversight if he feels there is inappropriate personal information on wikipedia, and avoiding taking matters into his own hands
  • to state his views clearly and succinctly at RfA, instead of engaging in extended arguments, even if he feels strongly that a particular outcome is not acceptable
  • to be more careful when expressing concerns about copyright, taking any issues to the relevant noticeboards or contacting a trusted administrator privately, instead of making repeated public accusations.

{Add your summary here. You must use the endorsement section below to sign it. Anyone is welcome to endorse this or any other view, but do not change other people's views. Editors writing this section should not normally add additional views below.}

Although a few editors have raised issues with User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz (KW), such as...

• User:Black Kite who raised maturity issues[1]
• User:Cerejota who at ANI suggested KW's actions might indicate an issue with WP:CIR (such as using three edits to make one comment, and edit warring with an editor on the editor's own editor review)
• User:28bytes who also mentions the issue with edit warring[2].
• User:Vegaswikian who pointed out that KW's deletion nomination of Category:Peace Corps volunteers was a violation of WP:POINT
• User:Carrite at an ANI - Apparent personal attacks - had to remind KW that he could not remove sources just because he disagrees with them.[3]

... this RfC does not focus on those issues, but instead is aimed at resolving three separate areas of particular concern.

The incivility displayed by KW rarely reaches the level of personal attacks, but more often works at the level of innuendo. The comments he makes are generally obfuscated so that the common reader will think nothing of them. The issue comes from the innuendo being so commonplace, the failure to adhere to WP:CIVILITY, and the resulting detriment to the collaborative editing environment. Here is a sample of the comments;

• KW regularly refers to User:Demiurge1000 as DemiWit [4][5][6][7]. As demi is derived from the Latin "dimenus" meaning "half", he is calling the editor a halfwit.
• KW has also referred to Demiurge1000 as "Ratatoskr".[8] Wikipedia's article Ratatoskr says that Ratatoskr was a low status animal that, in Norse mythology, told slanderous gossip to a wyrm. Not, in itself, an outrageous attack, but inappropriate in a discussion where he claimed to be seeking to avoid conflict; and concerning when considered in conjunction with KW's stated views elsewhere on the status of other editors, where he explains that he regards another editor as "an inferior" and that "condescension is appropriate".
• Accusations of harassment, without evidence (see WP:AOHA) [9][10][11][12][13]
• Accusations of "doing the bidding" of other editors (see WP:Meatpuppetry) "voluminous criticisms by Du1000's summoned clique" and "You came at the beck and call of your master, and did his bidding".
• Accuses Worm That Turned of not being a "serious" administrator[14], not experienced[15] and doesn't know what he's doing.

KW has very strong views regarding editors under the age of majority, and frequently this leads to disruption. Although the editors targeted have reacted with great restraint when faced with KW's behaviour, some of them stopped editing or greatly reduced their editing following incidents in which KW played a part; and there are also safety concerns regarding the possible impact of some of KW's statements.

One of the most egregious cases was at the RfA for Dylan620 - where he made a total of 79 edits [16][17] - well over double the candidate's 32. This is clearly excessive. The edits included the question How are you performing in school?. Many of the edits had sneering edit summaries such as →Oppose: don't you feel better after an outburst of ressentiment after your sense of injured merit rather than mumbling "I didn't know" or "I don't understand"?Please write again. I care.; another example comment was extremely condescending "Rschen, please go to bed. Tomorrow try to find Hodge's penguin book on logic and start to read and work some exercises." It is, of course, permitted to Oppose an RfA on the grounds of age, and doubtless KW's intentions were good; but his behaviour went way beyond simply making a !vote and explaining the reasons for it. RfA candidates, and others taking part in the RfA process, should not have to endure this level of disruption.

Only a few months later, when the same editor added an asperger's userbox to his own user page (making clear from the edit summary that its addition was something to which he had given careful thought), KW reverted 5 times in 4 hours, against 4 different editors. He reverted Dylan620, reverted Strange Passerby, reverted Demiurge1000, twice, reverted Ryan Vesey. Even being generous and not considering the first edit to be a revert - that's still over the 3RR bright line. However, for some reason KW believed that he was justified because the other 4 editors started it. When he was warned about the edit warring - he ignored the warning and posted a return warning on Demiurge1000's page. When told unconditionally to stop, he suggested he had not reverted four times, and made curious comments about "young great apes" and "you should have read a proper dictionary", then attempted to claim that the other editors were the ones at fault (See WP:NOTTHEM).

Having been fortunate enough not to be blocked for this blatant edit warring on another user's userpage, KW reacted to advice about it from administrator User:Worm That Turned by suggesting it was an "indexing error", and suggesting that he would not discuss further. But KW then completely changed the tone of his reply with a misleading edit summary, appearing to call the admin a bore, and telling the admin that he wastes his mind.

An even more serious instance of KW's inappropriate behaviour regarding younger editors was Guoguo12's RfA, where KW used the fact that a teenage candidate had requested oversight to remove personal information from his own userpage, many months previously, as an argument for opposing the candidate.[18] This has serious implications with regard to child protection on Wikipedia - it is very common that minors are encouraged to request oversight if they make a potentially unwise edit, and discouraging other minors from following that advice, in a highly public forum such as RfA, could put them at risk.

According to KW's own edit summaries, a task he undertakes is to "remove neoconservative digression beloved of sectarians and anti-semites". He feels articles related to certain USA political parties have an "ideological bias", which he solves by removing what he sees as OR/POV in them. The problems arise when KW follows his disgust at political views which he dislikes, with accusations of copyright violation or plagiarism against editors who wrote the material with which he disagrees.

The first example of this was at Socialist Party of America. KW found a paragraph that, in his own words, drove him bananas because of statements about the party. One hour sixteen minutes later, he re-wrote his comments on the talk page to mention for the first time copyright violation and plagiarism, as well as COI. He then chose an editor to accuse of COI and plagiarism, User:Chegitz guevara, with sneering political comments. KW continued, with many more revisions of his own comments, to expound his personal views on the true history of the party, and to claim that "the SPUSA cabal" had created the article; "an abuse of the public's trust".

KW went on to state "This plagiarism was due to User:Peter G. Warner", as well as claiming Peter had committed multiple instances of it. Peter made a remarkably calm reply under the circumstances, but KW immediately responded, with unintentional irony, by accusing Peter of making personal attacks and of unreasonably questioning his (KW's) good faith.

KW made many more accusations of plagiarism against Peter. He started on the talk page of the article itself [19], and later included there the fantastic logic "nobody wrote that you had not committed plagiarism", but also spread his accusation across multiple venues, including bringing it up in a WP:POINTy manner at E2eamon's RfA [20], Peter's talk page, WQA after Peter protested KW's behaviour, and repeating the accusations at WT:Copyright problems.

Peter made clear, very early, that he considered the plagiarism accusation false. At this point KW should have stopped making further accusations in different locations, at least until he found an experienced editor who agreed there was a problem. Instead, when challenged, he admitted that he knew the potential impact of his accusations against an academic editing Wikipedia under their real name; "I and Peter are both academics, and we are both well aware of the seriousness of plagiarism." (KW does not use his real name.) To continue the accusations under these circumstances, after multiple warnings, verges on harassment.

Not only that, but KW's own analysis of the alleged plagiarism was tenuous at best. KW had to remove large parts of the text in order to find similarities between a few isolated fragments, and it was clear that the material added by Peter presented similar ideas - not matching words or even structure. The closest matching phrase was "Shachtman and his lieutenant, Michael Harrington" - and since many of those words are names, the worst issue was the word "lieutenant".

KW has also made accusations of plagiarism without presenting any evidence - again regarding a U.S. political party - against User:TrustIsAllYouNeed. Regardless of whether there were indeed issues with the material contributed by that editor, an accusation without any evidence is unhelpful and uncivil.

KW had a run in with the retired, long-standing administrator and content contributor, User:Rd232. Once again, KW's initial concern seemed to be the political point of view of the text - his first complaint was to suggest there was "POV pushing" - and once again he followed this with accusations of copyright violation. Rd232 had to come out of retirement to deal with this. KW even violated copyright himself by copying large swathes of a book onto WP to test for copyright (admins only).

Again KW left an inappropriate copyright warning[21] - but this time he left a speedy deletion request on part of the article, completely misunderstanding the purpose of the tag. The issue was resolved by User:Moonriddengirl, from whom Rd232 had sought advice on dealing with the accusations, and who said "this certainly doesn't look to be a flagrant problem by any definition", "the content should be tweaked", and "The blanking for a week is unnecessary". KW followed her comments by accusing Rd232 of incompetence, and claiming - just as he had done with Peter - that Rd232's protests at the accusations were personal attacks and "violations of AGF".

Further evidence that KW does not fully understand copyright was when he copied and pasted text from within Wikipedia without attribution (Kiefer's copy & original edit). He may have done similar elsewhere, as he was even mentioned he was "cannibalizing other articles". Copying text without attribution is in violation of the WP:CC-BY-SA license, and therefore against editing guidelines.

{List the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}

1. WP:COPYVIO
2. WP:CIVILITY
3. WP:AOHA
4. WP:NPA
5. WP:EW
6. WP:POINT
7. WP:BLP

(Provide diffs of the comments. As with anywhere else on this RfC/U, links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)

1. Discussions at WP:ANI archived here
2. Suggestion of a one to one workshop - [22] [23] - which although KW was against, he did participate in
3. The one-to-one Workshop, where instead of discussion, KW called some of the issues "laughable" and instead asked for Worm That Turned to be sanctioned. It is unclear who he was asking to impose the sanction, since Worm That Turned had proposed this as a one-to-one discussion. At this point, the Workshop discussion was regarded as a failure.

Regarding this RfC:

• KW suggested that an RfC was a "threat"
• KW raised the RfC at the Administrator's noticeboard, an hour after discussion of it had been closed at WP:ANI, without informing Worm That Turned.
• KW refused to "take part" unless a "serious" administrator (implying Worm That Turned was not one) approved[24]. He went on to state that Worm That Turned was inexperienced[25] and that he doesn't know what he's doing
• When offered an attempt to solve this informally - on a one to one basis - KW attempted to dictate how any discussion regarding problems should take place. His unreasonable terms included the fact that the entire discussion should be by email[26] and that no RfC would be called for 2 months[27]
• KW attempted to deflect the RfC/U by asking for an interaction ban with both Demiurge1000 and Worm That Turned.[28]
  • Prior to warning KW for his 5RR offence, KW and Worm That Turned had only positive interactions, to the extent that KW put a "strong support" on Worm That Turned's RfA and Worm That Turned gained an oppose vote for strongly agreeing with KW; so there was little grounds for claiming that the suggested interaction ban served any other purpose than to prevent the RfC.
  • KW implied that the interaction ban was the suggestion of User:fetchcomms - but Fetchcomms had specifically stated he was unaware of the history. He was only explaining how to make an interaction ban request.[29]
  • Since that request, Demiurge has not interacted directly with KW, and only discussed him minimally, and Worm That Turned has kept his interactions with KW to a minimum. KW on the other hand has continued to instigate conversations at Worm That Turned's talk page, has posted images of the Spanish Inquisition referring to RfCs, and even brought up the topic at WT:RfA in a WP:POINTy manner.

1. Demiurge1000 requested that KW withdraw his accusations about Peter Werner. (KW's response was to suggest that he regarded the request as "a joke".)
2. Demiurge1000 asked at Wikipedia talk:Copyright problems for clarification on whether the material contributed by Peter Werner constituted copyright infringement.
3. Demiurge1000 sought clarification from KW, on KW's talk page, about his potentially misleading comments on Dylan620's RfA; also mentioning the issue of making dozens of comments on the same RfA. (KW's ultimate response to this query was "you are not welcome here, and I ask you not to post again", which he followed by an edit summary of "hide idiotic discussion".)

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

1. Worm^TT · (talk) 18:04, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:24, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3. --Peter G Werner (talk) 02:37, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1. Since Kiefer.Wolfowitz has previously stated that he will not take an RfC/U seriously unless it is "approved" an arb [30], and since I have previously attempted to explain that RfC's don't need Arbitrators to approve them, and he should really try to just resolve these problems by discussion [31] I can endorse that this dispute has been ongoing for a while, and sadly attempts to solve this by less formal means has failed. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. TFD (talk) 00:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC) I have come across Kiefer Wolfowitz, and while he has a great deal of ability as an editor, his approach is non-collegial and disruptive.[reply]

I wholly agree that Kiefer should not be driven off the Wikipedia, we would lose a fine editor should that happen. I've no quibbles with his work on articles, however I do not believe we should turn a blind eye to the valid issues raised above.

1. Worm^TT · (talk) 23:36, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. I really strongly agree with this. In fact, it seems to me that the way KW would be able to spend more time creating excellent encyclopedic content, and less time in unproductive disputes, would be to take seriously some of the suggestions that are made here - that's exactly the sort of advantage that the project (and everyone concerned) could gain from this process. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3. Endorsing to raise awareness of a major point. Editors may disagree on the validity of individual issues, and whether there are ongoing concerns, but the nutshell here is: KW is a fine editor in general, but has often edited tendentiously; we want more of the good and less of the bad, so lets encourage that. Geometry guy 22:35, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kiefer, I note that you refer to your previous response as a response to a draft RfC which it was not, it had none of the formality of an RfC and was designed for us to discuss the issues. This RfC does cover similar topics, but goes much further into areas where there are issues, and details them for you to look at. Dismissing them as the same as a 1-1 dispute resolution is wholly unhelpful.

Regarding your other comments, your Voltaire quote did not appear to be self deprecating, nor was it obvious that it was Voltaire and the likelihood of me interpreting that quote from a 17th century philosopher as uncivil is much more reasonable than say, you interpreting a facepalm as a direct insult. As for the agreeing that I waste my mind comment, I'm unsure how me trying to reduce drama (remember, this was the first time that I had admonished you) is relevant.

It would be much more helpful if you actually responded to the diffs above than dismissing them with comments about our usernames.

1. Worm^TT · (talk) 23:36, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. Unfortunately KW's response is mostly a big copy paste of his comments at the one-to-one workshop; combative comments that resulted in that workshop being abandoned. Not only were the comments almost entirely free of diffs to back up what KW said, but they also failed to address the points made then - and are even less relevant to the points made in this RfC/U. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When looking at the problems with how copyright concerns have been handled, I think it is worth everyone's time to read this explanation by Moonriddengirl of some of her practice in dealing with possible copyright problems.

In particular, she says that in some circumstances, 'I have myself created new text to replace close paraphrasing concerns that I thought very tenuous. I don't use {{cclean}} on the talk; I don't rev delete; I don't in any way suggest the content is a copyright violation in my edit summary. I usually just note that I am "revising to separate further from source" or something like that.'

She goes on to say that 'I'd really like to see diplomacy and consideration on all sides of the copyright equation. We should approach the issue thoughtfully and try to keep emotions down. I think our best chance of creating a harmonious community, conscious of copyright issues and in agreement as to what constitutes acceptable content, will come in eliminating drama and shame from the equation insofar as humanly possible.' And finally, 'But by the same token, we don't want to burn people who try to help identify copyright problems if they are wrong; they, too, are trying to improve the project and need to be kindly brought in line with community standards.'

I think KW was indeed trying to improve the project, and (despite its billing in some venues) this RfC/U was not for the purpose of burning him or anyone else. But he needs to move from his wildly extreme methods of attacking editors over disputed use of source material, to be closer to Moonriddengirl's "harmonious community" approach. Even if he doesn't quite go all the way.

1. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:02, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This section is reserved for the use of the user whose conduct is disputed. Users writing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section, and the person writing this section should not write a view below. Anyone is welcome to endorse this or any other view, but no one except the editor(s) named in the dispute may change the summary here.

I have responded at length before to these charges by Worm and Demiurge1000, at ANI, etc. I shall paste my previous reply to Worm's draft RfC/U, from the copy saved in my user space.

The reader should carefully examine two August documents, Worm/David's draft RfC and my response. 10:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I have read enough that I do not wish to participate in this RfC/U, because of gross dishonesty and hypocrisy.

1. Worm quotes me above, where I noted that he was too smart not to be contributing to content about more serious topics.

What is surprising is that he fails to quote his response, following the objection by a friendly editor that I was being obnoxious. Worm wrote something like "Well, he has a point. I should write something. In fact, I am writing an essay for young editors, and I would like your feedback." I replied that I would be sincerely honored to comment on his essay:

2. As I explained to Worm, above, the Voltaire allusion was self-deprecating, suggesting that I did not want to be a bore by explaining everything. Despite my explanation and link to Google, he turns it around and writes that I was suggesting that "an administrator" [himself?] was a bore.

Unworthy of an honest man but alas well established as a debating tactic of scoundrels

3. Opening the RfC with a list of my errors, which will not be pursued in this RfC, was a very short-sighted stratagem, which immediately raised concerns about the intent and appropriateness of this RfC, particularly since some of these events seem to be presented unfairly

It is hard to think of an opening that could be more damaging to their credibility---apart from a listing of their prior complaints (on my talk page, at ANI, at AN, at Worm's talk page, etc.), which were even more filled with errors and partiality: The kilobytes of attacks and falsehoods, carried on for a half year, and the 128 bytes of partial apologies should horrify any neutral reader.

The citations of Carrite, Cerejota, Black Kite, Vegaswikian deserve some context:

A. User:Carrite is cited as having to tell me that Busky's book could not be removed just on my whim. What Carrite wrote was different. Most importantly, after Carrite's comment (based on my knowledge of Carrite's integrity and knowledge), I have not removed Busky, which is the only source for some true statements. Where we could find independent reliable sources for other true statements previously attributed to Busky, we have listed them. (See Carrite's statement of "astonishment" below.) In fact, anybody who looks at this history can see a proper concern for writing a truthful article using reliable sources.

B. Cerejota removed my comment from his editor review, which was an unwarranted action; I proposed amending the editor review rules, to allow the editor review to be treated as virtual user-space. Happily this suggestion was implemented. Thus, this example is a fine example of WikiLawyering, in a positive sense.It is unfortunate that a clichéd smear against the legal profession has become cited as policy on Wikipedia, by those who should know better, particularly Americans. After initial squabbles, Cerejota and I have exchanged good-humored declarations of mutual respect, in fact.

C. Black Kite immediately understood why I would have been so upset with a "talk to the hand" message, particularly in that context. At least he immediately accepted my apology on my page. Nonetheless, I made a longer apology on his talk page, because of contrition and a need to set the record straight everywhere I had made a mistake.

D. Vegaswikian cited and misunderstood WP:Point in the discussion of Vista volunteers and Peace Corps volunteers, and apparently Worm shares this confusion. The record shows that the other participants clearly understood the benefits of a parallel discussion of the two analogous organizations, so much so that several copied the same arguments to each. (Substituting words of the same type in an deduction, to test whether nonsense arises, is the basis of grammar and logic. It is also true that we reason better about familiar topics, so that it was better to discuss the case of the Peace Corps than VISTA.) Finally, I and another participant joked about the mental habits of mathematicians. Thus, in this case, I helped to frame a productive discussion that led to consensus; I was not disrupting Wikipedia in bad faith, the problem of WP:Point. It is really a disappointment that Worm cites this example, and continues to misunderstand WP:Point, particularly at something as time-consuming and emotionally charged as an RfC/U.

In all these "cases", alleged by WTT's introduction, there is a repetition of an initial charge, without attempting to provide context or to examine the ensuing discussions.

Examing these cases can be done quickly, and in each case you can see that there is a gross and malicious misrepresentation of fact. 22:58, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

WTT later apologized for this introduction, but has not yet struck them. 22:58, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia and I both raised questions about WTT's writing and use of sources at his RfA: Rather than complain, I tried to be constructive and so rewrote one of his articles. When he tried to conduct an RfC-formatted discussion, I complained earlier about his poor writing/sourcing, after which he quit.

Now, looking beyond the opening misreprentations (for which WTT has apologized---without striking through his bullshit), to the core of this RfC, I see gross misrepresentations again:

WTT accuses me of accusing TIYN of plagiarism and provides a diffs, glossing that I failed to provide evidence:

KW has also made accusations of plagiarism without presenting any evidence - again regarding a U.S. political party - against User:TrustIsAllYouNeed. Regardless of whether there were indeed issues with the material contributed by that editor, an accusation without any evidence is unhelpful and uncivil.

If you follow the diff, you can see that I did not accuse him TIAYN of plagiarism. Rather, I stated that he paraphrased Busky's book, and I provided the diff in which TIAYN did so. (Busky's book had been referenced, with hyper-links to on-line versions, repeatedly in these discussions.) Again, another malevolent misrepresentation.

Notice the fatuity about honesty and truth: "Regardless of whether there were indeed issues with the material contributed by that editor ...."!

This is another misrepresentation.

Please read the discussions in the diffs, and see how Moonriddengirl is selectively quoted.

• In reality, Rd232 apologized for quoting (with quotation marks) whole paragraphs from 1-2 pages (of a bad article).
• Moonriddengirl rewrote that material.

In other words, there was a real problem, that had been left for years on Wikpedia before I cleaned up the article.

What is striking in WTT's account is the selective quotation, apparently believing that RfC participants are too lazy to check the diffs (which turned out to be well justified, in some cases, alas), and the failure to include any suggestion of complexity or any recognition of my contributions.

Granted, I could have written more nicely to Rd232, as I have acknowledged elsewhere, even if I was in the midst of a very long day cleaning up more than 10 articles, which seemed to have copyright problems. 22:36, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

My previous discussions with Demiurge1000 and his administrator-friend Worm That Turned 3---notably in August AN/ANI and WTT's mock RfC---suggested that this RfC is a bad idea.

The conduct of the RfC confirmed my judgment. It starts so badly, with gross representations of other editors' comments, that when I considered reading further I started thinking about my own mortality and feeling existential dread.

UPDATE: Too late, WTT apologized for his bullshit introduction and its misrepresentations, but he still has failed to strike through it. (22:50, 28 October 2011 (UTC))

I see a similar pattern of misrepresentations in the later sections of their complaint. I have had the stomach to comment on only a few misrepresentations. However, I urge the editors who wish responsibly to participate to investigate the context of the above diffs. Ask yourself, is this a fair representation? Or is the representation given a biased account? The closing administrator, TParis, found that 8 hours was needed to prepare for participation. (22:50, 28 October 2011 (UTC))

Nonetheless, despite my concerns about the unfairness of this RfC, I have commented on outside views, stated below, because of respect for the community.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:01, 8 October 2011 (UTC) 13:21, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll respond to comments made by outsiders here.

Responses to outside views

RE David, et alia Thanks for the kind words about my efforts in the mathematics, statistics, and computer science projects! It is wishful thinking however to wish that this RfC would not detract from my editing: The FA nomination for the Shapley-Folkman lemma has been closed following my inactivity. Editors who are not mathematical scientists should think about David's statement and its implications. If an editor behaves well in one major area of Wikipedia, it may be that apparently problematic behavior in other areas may be symptomatic of a interaction-problem, involving both the editor (me) and other editors. In general, mathematicians and statisticians are good at visualizing relations among 2 predictor variables and one response variable. Statisticians discuss interaction among the predictors, and study them using factorial designs and generalized randomized block designs (GRBDs, whose short article may be my most important contribution to Wikipedia).  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply] RE Elen et alia Nobody has claimed that anybody has a right to act like a jerk because of writing articles. Please withdraw the straw man, as a demonstration of drama-reducing ability. Tonight, let me respond to "Have Moeser, Will Travel". Honestly, I wrote "sic." after "disdain" with deliberate reason; however, it does not seem helpful to explain this edit (and I do not claim that writing "sic." then was prudent).  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:55, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply] RE Biały et alia Most of what is written is fine, and I endorsed its main messages, e.g., that sometimes I should think thrice before submitting a comment on another editor's behavior. However, we should be clear about the areas of dispute. (0) In many of the above instances, where I seem to have said something uncivil, there was already incivility directed at me: while others' previous incivility does not excuse my incivility, fairness does suggest some discussion of others' personal attacks or incivility is appropriate. In the worst cases (I believe), I have already withdrawn or apologized for writing too roughly; it strikes me as disingenuous to quote the severest statement, without noting that where I have withdrawn or apologized, particularly when I have already complained about the misleading quotation. (1) An editor paraphrased a SPUSA pamphlet that accused Michael Harrington and others of "Stalinist democratic centralism"; the editor knew enough to remove "Stalinist" but left "democratic centralism", and used this unreliable "history" to introduce a lot of partisan claims, for which reliable sources are wonting, and some of which appear to be false. The editor provided citations to Drucker's biography of Shachtman, which in fact does not support the claims made (and usually contradicts them). (The editor in question is not an wunderkind, innocent of the norms of academic scholarship, either.) (2) I cleaned up about 10 articles and tagged about 10 others one day, when I found that they were derived from a left-wing website. (More recently, I have removed a lot of right-wing conspiracy junk from neoconservatism; interestingly, nobody has cried in protest.) The tags exist so that experts from our copyright project can determine if a violation exists, and take appropriate action. In every case where I tagged an article, extensive rewriting or history-deletion was done. (Why MrG rewrote an article while gently assuring others that it was not a violation of WP policy is a question that has never bothered my sleep.) For these actions, DemiUrge1000 accused me of pursuing a political agenda, and particularly regarding (1) accused me of "bullying" while also assuring the editor in question that nobody on Wikipedia besides myself cares about the "democratic centralism" slander. (I have yet to read an apology for these charges, or a word of chastisement of DemiUrge1000.) I have signed Bialy's "view from the outside" in the following sense: In the course of a c. 16-hour clean-up of the leftwing-conspiracy website infected articles, I could have written a nicer note to the editor(s) in question. Finally, it is worth considering whether any actions, such as introducing racist or misogynist or anti-Semitic or sectarian trash, should ever receive stern messages on WP. (For example, Archie Bunker last night blamed an influx of jiggaboos for an alleged increase in juvenile delinquency in a Cleveland suburb. Referring to WP:RS seems to be an utterly inadequate response to such poison.) It is worth considering whether plagiarists should be welcomed (as many or even most participants in recent RfAs seem to have affirmed) or whether stern messages are sometimes appropriate (as SandyGeorgia and others seem to think). Insofar as we are trying to write an encyclopedia (rather than providing a therapeutic environment for PTSD-sufferers), it is reasonable to expect that negative reinforcement will occasionally be useful: Reward everything—gold and garbage—alike. The tradition of exaggerated tenderness in psychiatry and psychology reflects our “therapeutic attitude” and contrasts with that of scholars in fields like philosophy or law, where a dumb argument is called a dumb argument, and he who makes a dumb argument can expect to be slapped down by his peers. Nobody ever gives anybody negative reinforcement in a psychiatric case conference. (Try it once—you will be heard with horror and disbelief.) The most inane remark is received with joy and open arms as part of the groupthink process. Consequently the educational function, for either staff or students, is prevented from getting off the ground. Any psychologist should know that part of the process of training or educating is to administer differential reinforcement for good versus bad, effective versus ineffective, correct versus incorrect behaviors. If all behavior is rewarded by friendly attention and nobody is ever non-reinforced (let alone punished!) for talking foolishly, it is unlikely that significant educational growth will take place. (pp. 228-229) ... The obvious educational question is, how does it happen that this bright, conscientious, well-motivated, social-service-oriented premed psychology major with a 3.80 average doesn’t know the most elementary things about psychotic depression, such as its diagnostic indicators, its statistical suicide risk, or the time phase in the natural history of the illness which presents the greatest risk of suicide? The answer, brethren, is very simple: Some of those who are “teaching” and “supervising” him either don’t know these things themselves or don’t think it is important for him to know them. This hapless student is at the educational mercy of a crew that is so unscholarly, antiscientific, “groupy-groupy,” and “touchy-feely” that they have almost no concern for facts, statistics, ... or the work of the intellect generally. (p. 280) (Emboldening and links added. Paul Meehl, "Why I do not attend case conferences") RE "Have Moeser, Will Travel" and Canvassing Moeser and Demiurge (elsewhere) accuse me of canvassing, because I placed notices regarding this RfC at my primary projects, rather than at the WikiProject socialism, etc. Why? Why? Why? Why? ...? The articles related to American socialism were in terrible states when I found them, although they had been worse 5 years ago, and so the relevant projects were immediately suspect as dysfunctional/nonfunctional. Those projects have been useless when I have asked for help related to e.g. Tom Kahn; in contrast, our brothers and sisters at the LGBT project provided useful feedback for it. I have no reason to expect that an RfC notice at the non--high-functional projects would generate feedback, let alone competent feedback. The advantages of having non-involved parties commenting on this RfC has been previously addressed by Geometry Guy, at Elen's talk page---which is soon to be moved to the talk page here. I discussed the pleasures of contributing to articles related to mathematical-sciences WikiProject in the interview in SignPost. Finally, even here at an RfC, "Have mörser, will travel" violates WP:AGF with impunity and with a notable failure of empathic imagination.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply] RE WhatAmIDoing? Please remove the sanctimonious hypocrisy and the personal attack about my lacking skills to diffusedefuse drama. You might look at my Barnstars and see a statement about personal diplomacy for example. The Working Man's Barnstar In appreciation of your work on Shlomo Sawilowsky‎, I hereby award you this barnstar.--Iulus Ascanius (talk) 14:53, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply] The Barnstar of Diplomacy for your tireless liaison work at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Monty Hall problem. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:59, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply] The Barnstar of Integrity For keeping the good of the Wiki ahead of thy personal glory, I hereby grant thee, Kiefer.Wolfowitz, this Barnstar for thy great expansion and neutralizing of Social Democrats, USA Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:00, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply] The Workers' Barnstar This user has shown great editing skills in improving articles related to Communism or Socialism. ...For your ongoing efforts to eliminate tendentious distortions from histories and biographies relating to 1970s American radicalism. Carrite (talk) 16:21, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply] What is Elen doing signing this personal attack? Alas, you all are not alone in lacking the skills to read, to reason, and to avoid keeping your two feet firmly planted in your mouths. The last sentence was not "mockery" in Elen's words, but a parody of the personal attack below, stating that I "lack the skills to diffusedefuse drama", by persons demonstrating less reading skills and less reasoning skills than 28bytes, who had the courtesy to reply in good faith to a request. In the future, I shall leave such parodies to those with a demonstrated ability to perform "unconscious self parodies", a category featured in Dwight MacDonald's Parodies: An Anthology from Chaucer to Beerbohm—And beyond. 20:08, 15 October 2011 (UTC) RE Elen's 2nd outside view The comments confuse me. I suppose the "mockery" refers to the previously mentioned parody. I would have preferred criticism to have some sense of balance and fairness, and to have issued appropriate qualifications (about the basis for judgments), Professor Bialy's or 28Bytes's, but I don't believe that I have ever expressed a statement that anybody "should not be allowed to participate": Could this claim be explained? 20:58, 15 October 2011 (UTC) So "going through the garbage" was a personal attack! It's a good thing that I did not worry about anybody jumping out of my monitor and punching me, lest I too face a block!  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:02, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply] Again, Elen misrepresents what I wrote. After Worm's behavior over months, CONFUSION WITH ANOTHER NEW ADMIN following his gratuitous attack on Malleus during Worm's RfA (where I AGFed despite my conscience) SORRY, I just told him that he can write whatever he wants (without expecting me to read it). 12:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC) RE DGG DGG took 11 6 minutes to read the documents (103 kilobytes) and congratulate himself on his work with younger editors and an additional 5 minutes to sign other "outside views". TParis took 8 hours to read.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 05:50, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply] DGG, please review the word or, (05:50, 27 October 2011 (UTC)) whose use troubled your first 11-minute review of this RfC. DGG, your commentary on the Second Letter of Elen misquotes me. I said "at most one can be correct", not that "only one is correct". In most cases, all versions are false, and in a infrequent cases one may be a tolerable approximation to the truth. (I referenced the principle of explosion, which is well worth understanding.)  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 00:30, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply] It is hypocritical but no longer surprising, alas, that Elen signed this view a day after she called one of our best writers an "idjit".  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:58, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I suggested the following summary of this RfC (23:05, 28 October 2011 (UTC)):

Kiefer.Wolfowitz (KW) has been a very active writer and editor. He has written primarily in statistical science and other mathematical sciences (principally statistics, but also optimization/operations research, mathematical economics, and computer science); he has also written biographies in these areas. His first work, revising optimal design inspired his name, honoring Jack C. Kiefer and Jacob Wolfowitz. In these areas, his editing has received very high praise: in this RfC, leaders of the WP:WikiProject Mathematics and WP:WikiProject Mathematics commended his editing and raised the concern that KW's total contributions to Wikipedia be considered, particularly the articles in their expertise, which they commended.

In the last 6 months, KW has written more about recent American political history, particularly about controversial articles that have long been featured in Wikipedia:Noticeboards and at least one Arbitration Committee case: History_of_the_socialist_movement_in_the_United_States, American left, Socialist Party of America (SPA), Social Democrats, USA, Socialist Party USA, Michael Harrington/Democratic Socialist Organizing Committee/Democratic Socialists of America, neoconservatism, Freedom in the World, and more than a dozen articles based on material imported from on-line websites.

• In all cases, KW boldly edited the articles; in many cases, his early edits were criticized as POV-pushing: However, in all cases, his edits have stood the test of time (although their referencing has been improved), and one of his early critics User:Carrite stated that he was "astonished" to be cited in criticism of KW, stating "on the contrary, I think he is a terrific editor". None of his material has any tags, and certainly none for RS, NPOV, etc.
• At the same time, these political articles have been the sites of greatest conflict. In these conflicts, content/political questions overlapped questions about sources (complying with WP:Reliable sources and WP:NPOV). KW's editing and his referencing has been praised in the current good-article review of Tom Kahn (and American social democrat) and called "meticulous" in the recent featured-article of Shapley–Folkman lemma (a topic in convex geometry and mathematical economics). While improving articles, KW has bluntly condemned some sources as "crap" and sometimes as politically biased fantasies, while also criticizing the edits that introduced that material; some of these criticisms have been made while also raising concerns, infrequently by using tags, about compliance with WP policies on avoiding close paraphrasing/plagiarism and respecting copyright. In all cases, the tagged material has been rewritten, to comply with WP policy; in the case of Freedom in the World WP copyright expert User:Moonriddengirl stated that the infraction was probably not a serious but nonetheless rewote the section. It is this cluster of issues have raised the greatest concern among critics of KW. KW has acknowledged that calling sources "crap" and raising concerns about close paraphrasing/plagiarism/copyright-violation/POV-pushing/fringe upsets the editors introducing the questioned material.

In the last year, Kiefer.Wolfowitz has participated in discussions for Requests for Administrator. In these discussions, KW has consistently opposed minors becoming administrators, because of his ethical and legal concerns; while sanctioned by WP policy, his and others' stated opposition to minors has been criticized. He has been criticized as being paternalistic and rigid about removing personal information, such as disabilities, from minors' user pages; all the minors involved have thanked KW for concern, while choosing to continue to display the information. KW has acknowledged that WP:Oversight may be contacted in future cases.

There has been forthright, sometimes heated, but rarely illuminating discussions about the wisdom of this RfC, about the history leading to this RfC, and about the conduct of the parties. By its nature, an RfC/U focuses on the conduct of the targeted user, unlike a request for mediation, which may suggest voluntary interaction bans, etc. KW has long sought a voluntary interaction ban with User:Worm That Turned and User:Demiurge1000; KW, User:Geometry guy, and others have suggested that this RfC failed to address the problem of interaction, and in particular did not address Demiurge1000's behavior.

Quoting still relevant statements from talk page: 01:00, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Finally, I remind readers that I have suggested interaction bans for months, as have others. A proposal for a mediation procedure was rejected by WTT.

For a half year, I have been criticized, with some justification but also with a great deal of misrepresentation and unfairness (and obvious malevolent provocation, including personal attacks), on talk pages

• at RfA c. 6 months ago, then
• at talk pages where Demiurge1000 would appear to inflame conflicts, then
• at AN/ANI in August, and then
• at a RfC-formatted discussion, which WTT quit. In my reply there, I noted that the conflict with Demiurge1000 began at RfAs. At the end of this RfC (on the talk page), Demiurge1000 and Worm That Turned returned to the forum at which this conflict started, RfAs.

Given the months of criticism, mainly for the same events---events that happened before the August ANI/AN discussions---I have viewed the filing of the RfC as malevolent harrassment. Inspection of the contents of the RfC, especially the beginning list of issues not to be pursued, shows a severe misrepresentation of facts, and a severe bias.

Despite the unfairness of the RfC filing, many editors did their duty and read enough of the diffs, and their context. In particular, as 28bytes noted after I asked him to review some diffs, in many cases Demiurge1000 violated civility first. There is a need to address interaction, and the need for all editors to comply with WP:civility.

I would have preferred to have a mediation procedure, addressing the problems of interaction between myself, Demiurge1000, and Worm That Turned (and in the last 2 months also Elen of the Roads; see the comments by Geometry guy at the beginning and near-close of this RfC about an Arbcomm member who asks questions later and backpedals). Of my 3 chief critics, only Worm That Turned has admitted any faults and made any attempt to apologize.

Finally, I observe three points:

1. Notwithstanding my indignation at my mistreatment in this RfC, I have responded with sincerity to "outside views" by conscientious Wikipedians.
2. Indeed, I have signed criticism by Professor Bialy and by LK and by Fetchcomms, and written acknowledgments on other critics' talk pages.
3. As gracious acceptances of fair criticism, these examples are obvious and prior counter-examples to Elen's broken-record refrain, that I regard all criticism as personal attacks.

Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:28, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This section is for statements or opinions written by users not directly involved with this dispute, but who would like to add a view of the dispute. Users should not edit other people's summaries or views, except to endorse them. All signed comments other than your own view or an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" or "Response") should not normally edit this section, except to endorse another person's view.

I have no opinion on the political disputes described here, but Wolfowitz has performed very valuable service to the encyclopedia bringing mathematical articles such as Shapley–Folkman lemma as well as related biographical articles such as Jon Folkman, Graciela Chichilnisky, and Andreu Mas-Colell up to a high editorial standard. I would hate for the issues described in this RfC to overshadow his improvements to article space and cause him to stop contributing in this way.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. Geometry guy 21:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3. Worm^TT · (talk) 21:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
4. Sławomir Biały (talk) 21:52, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
5. Ozob (talk) 22:12, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
6. Sasha (talk) 00:37, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
7. Justin W Smith ^talk/_stalk 00:40, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
8. CRGreathouse (t | c) 03:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
9. OpenInfoForAll (talk) 04:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
10. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:31, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
11. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
12. 28bytes (talk) 19:50, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
13. Malleus Fatuorum 02:44, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
14. This is fucking Kafkaesque. Step back and breathe deep. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.246.147.40‎ (talk • contribs)
15. --Forich (talk) 04:29, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
16. --Guerillero | My Talk 05:07, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
17. —Ruud 12:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
18. —LK (talk) 09:21, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
19. DGG ( talk ) 01:56, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
20. -- Volunteer Marek  22:53, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
21. Jaguar (talk) 13:45, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This RfC seems to be procedurally invalid because even were the assertions factual they would not suffice to sanction Kiefer.Wolfowitz.

1. CRGreathouse (t | c) 03:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:35, 10 October 2011 (UTC) (Arguing in the plural)[reply]

I'm a little astonished to see my name mentioned above as one of the accusers here. I think K-Wolf is a terrific editor at Wikipedia and I earnestly wish ticky-tack soap operas like this would cease. I've got no problems with K-Wolf, I think he's a reasonable person and a good historian who understands and cares about the Wikipedia project. He can be passionate in his views and sometimes needs to hear views of others to keep situations in focus — but that's a minor party foul. K-Wolf is an excellent content-creator, it is time for his detractors to cease and desist... Carrite (talk) 04:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary:

1. (me!) Carrite (talk) 04:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:40, 10 October 2011 (UTC). In the case of Carrite, I instantly accepted with his ruling, so I find it bizarre to find it listed in a good-faith RfC, which is supposed to list problems that need to be addressed.[reply]

   There are similar problems with many of the other incidents, which seem to be a comprehensive list of my worst edits: In most cases, and certainly the worst, I later apologized or struck through a remark. This was true in the discussion of condescension and inferiors, which Worm keeps presenting in the worst light---where, after having been brushed back on the previous pitch, I did not resist swinging for the fences when I was presented a hanging curve ball. Worm has repeatedly criticized me for this edit, irresponsibly prolonging stressful attention to a vulnerable editor, despite my having corrected it.

   If this RfC is supposed to reform me, why does so much of it consist of old edits for which I have tried to make amends?  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:40, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

3. I also think Carrite gave an adequate summary (incl. the term "soap opera") Sasha (talk) 02:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
4. FeydHuxtable (talk) 15:00, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
5. Weak/partial endorsement: KW has not been without fault, but despite efforts made by WormTT, this process has been confrontational, with editors sometimes responding to score points or encourage KW to "bring it on" and hence justify their criticism. This hasn't helped (and indeed has failed) to overcome KW's natural hostility to the process. Geometry guy 22:52, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
6.  Volunteer Marek  22:54, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kiefer.Wolfowitz's statement above No interest in participating unless a respected Wikipedian affirms reading the charges is indicative of the behaviour that has brought about this RfC - a combination of Wikilawyering, insulting people's intelligence (probably entirely accidentally) and attempting to find a way to ignore the issue. Good contribution isn't a free pass - I guess few of us do criticism well, but if Keifer would only engage a bit more with what other people see as problem behaviour, then this could all be sorted out and he could get back to contributing to articles, which is his real strength.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. Editors who possess a superior intellect should strive to use it towards improving Wikipedia, not towards composing elaborate attacks against those less capable of witticism. (And Webster knows of the word disdain, so my inferior intellect fails to comprehend what KW's "Disdain (sic.)" is supposed to mean, especially when KW admits immediately thereafter that "I have scorned and I do scorn editors [...]".) Have mörser, will travel (talk) 18:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3. Elen put it perhaps more bluntly than I would, but KW does have an unfortunate habit of showing palpable disdain for his "inferiors": for example, in the liberal use of "[sic]" when quoting other editors, this edit summary, and the whole 'Demiwit' business. While he is of course free to disdain who he wishes, it would make for much smoother interactions if he could make it a touch less palpable. 28bytes (talk) 20:11, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
4. Says it all, really. And User:Have mörser, will travel's endorsement here makes the most incisive comment I have yet seen on this RfC/U - on which, more later. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:28, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
5. Emphasizing that "engage a bit more" is directed towards KW figuring out how he's creating and contributing to these problems, not that he spend more time engaging in problem behaviors like insulting people. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:04, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
6. Indeed. And let me say I totally disagree with David Epstein's view. Producing good content in NO WAY gives one the right to be an arrogant jackass--this attitude is at the core of many of wiki's problems. PumpkinSky talk 23:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
7. I don't have to do a detailed reading of the charges to know that when I came across Kiefer at the Economics Wikiproject, I found his comments off-putting and sanctimonious. At the same time, he does seem to do good work. Since Kiefer professes to value intelligence, I will conclude with this quote: "It is a wise thing to be polite; consequently, it is a stupid thing to be rude. To make enemies by unnecessary and willful incivility, is just as insane a proceeding as to set your house on fire. For politeness is like a counter--an avowedly false coin, with which it is foolish to be stingy." Schopenhauer, 'The Wisdom of Life and Counsels and Maxims'. II | (t - c) 00:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
8. Eluchil404 (talk) 04:42, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
9. causa sui (talk) 19:30, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
10. His entire attitude towards much needed self-improvement is brutal (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:45, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
11. I note his response below, that in content arguments, "only one of the views can be correct"; since this is utterly and directly in contradiction to the basic principle of NPOV, an editor with such an attitude will be under a great handicap in discussing controversial topics at Wikipedia. That candid confession explains many of the problems--working in accordance with such an attitude inevitably leads to personal attacks and invective, and is no reason why we should tolerate it. DGG ( talk ) 23:55, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not deeply familiar with the specifics of this case. I have seen Dr. Wolfowitz's observations at RfA regarding the maturity level of administrators, and at the time I thought he had a very good point. As Carrite says, Dr. Wolfowitz is passionate about his editing. He can also be somewhat tactless and aggressive in discussions. Other editors are sometimes put off by this attitude even when he is being perfectly civil.

That said, the basis of the RfC makes it seem like sometimes Dr. Wolfowitz crosses a line into incivility. That's hardly surprising. I think it's something most of us do from time to time, but it's obviously something we should try to minimize. Let me just say, in as friendly a way possible: Kiefer, try to be a little more respectful of those around you. I think as a result you will earn their respect as well. (This is advice that we all should try to follow, I think.)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Sławomir Biały (talk) 18:54, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. Well put. 28bytes (talk) 19:49, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3. This seems about the right balance. If editors want more than this from the fundamentally one-sided process that is an RfC/U, there needs to be some give and take, for instance by discussing mutual non-interaction agreements or similar ways to disengage from dispute. Geometry guy 20:04, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
4. I do think that would go a long way to help. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:19, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
5. --Kmhkmh (talk) 20:20, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
6. Besides the small niggle that Kiefer Wolfowitz is not the user's actual name (but rather a combination of two eminent mathematicians), I do absolutely agree with this view - and think that many of the points would disappear if KW (and indeed all of us) followed such advice. Worm^TT · (talk) 11:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

   After having been addressed as "Kiefer" (and variants), I have sometimes signed my postings as "Kiefer", with considerable amusement.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:48, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

7. Appropriate balance, although I'd suggest that KW might have used stronger language if this were a discussion about another user. —WFC— 15:23, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
8.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:58, 10 October 2011 (UTC). A couple caveats. I avoid the word "maturity" at RfAs, rather using "minor" because of my concern with the legality and vulnerability of minors being administrators. Second, I can be direct and forceful with persons who need to address problems, particularly persons introducing BGoodP violations by using sectarian trash, for which no apology should be made. (I have apologized to Carrite for initial roughness, and accepted his apology, the same.)[reply]
9. —LK (talk) 09:21, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
10. -This is the minimum of what needs to happen.PumpkinSky talk 23:54, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
11. Absolutely. If KW sought a situation of mutual respect with other editors, rather than pigeon-holing them as "inferior", "not worth my time", part of a "clique", part of a "cabal", or as lacking "2% of my competence" if they happen to be on the other side of some political, policy, or other editorial dispute from him, then these problems would just not happen. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:27, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
12. Though I would stress the positives in Sławomir's statement. Volunteer Marek  22:55, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm concerned about the biased WP:CANVASSing that went on in the initial hours of this RfCU. User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz has notified

• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics [35]
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Economics [36]
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Statistics [37]

but as of 14:31, 10 October 2011 (UTC) he has not notified any of the following WikiProjects:

• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Political parties
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Organized Labour (he had posted there before)
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Organizations
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Socialism

even though the latter but not the former group of WikiProjects are listed on Talk:Socialist Party USA and Talk:Socialist Party of America—articles that were focal points of this dispute. Not surprisingly, the initial outside view above was unrelated to the main dispute at hand here. Apparently, Kiefer.Wolfowitz has earned the respect of other editors in non-controversial areas, and thought to capitalize on that in this dispute.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 14:31, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. Although I have no particular opinion on KW's exact motives in acting in this way - I'll leave that to the clueful reader - I've commented at length under Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Kiefer.Wolfowitz#Canvassing again on why I feel mörser's concerns here are certainly worth noting. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:16, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3. Note that I did inform all the other Wikiprojects listed above, and we certainly didn't get a flood of editors rushing in to attack him. I think his own perception that anything other than praise constitutes an attack may have been what got in the way here, but don't want to speculate on motives. Elen of the Roads (talk) 08:28, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The first in a list of allegations against KW is a complaint by User Black Kite, who reportedly raised a "maturity issue" with regard to the following comment by KW which user Black Kite found objectionable: What we see is a repeated, deliberate violation of WP:Civility by an administrator against a plebe, by an administrator who threatens to slap plebes with trouts. Facepalms are used by teenage punks. I made no personal attack. Now this is certainly a colorful comment by KW, that could be profitably toned down, but if this is the level of the complaints against KW, I suggest the complainers stop wasting the community's time and withdraw their complaint immediately. Tkuvho (talk) 18:27, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1. Tkuvho (talk) 18:27, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:37, 11 October 2011 (UTC) Comment: I remain embarrassed by my reaction, which was based on my mistaking the good-willed and good-humored "face palm" for "talk to the hand", which is one of the most obnoxious expressions of contempt in contempory decadence. Black Kite was innocent (and the trouting a triviality, which only bothered me after the hand misunderstanding).  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:37, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3. CRGreathouse (t | c) 15:15, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
4. Heh.  Volunteer Marek  22:57, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Two principles seem to be relevant:

1. Hoyle's Law applies to the English Wikipedia: Whatever the game, whatever the rules—the rules are the same for both sides. We neither have nor want 'special exemptions' from behavioral policies for editors with excellent mainspace contributions. People with excellent editing skills do not get a free pass on their treatment of other volunteers (e.g., [38]).
2. "Assigning blame" for causing drama and "solving the problem" of the unhelpful drama are unrelated activities. Some types of comments and responses tend to create or inflame disputes; other approaches tend to defuse them. Our best collaborators are highly skilled in defusing drama. Kiefer.Wolfowitz is not exactly unusual in lacking this skill, but Wikipedia would be improved if he figured out what changes he can make in his own behavior to defuse disputes and reduce the drama around him, no matter who or what caused the drama.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:47, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. This sums up 80% of the root problems raised in the RfC in one go. Worm^TT · (talk) 08:26, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
4. -yepPumpkinSky talk 23:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
5. DGG ( talk ) 22:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
6. Eluchil404 (talk) 04:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
7. Repeated attempts to censor this view on the flimsiest of excuses are perhaps a hint that it goes to the heart of the matter. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:29, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
8. causa sui (talk) 19:32, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
9. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:47, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone else think that Kiefer.Wolfowitz's response is actually indictative of the problem - especially if one notes his comments on the talkpage. Perhaps those who would consider himself friends could try explaining.Since this has caused some comment, I will rephrase. I believe Kiefer.Wolfowitz's conduct in this RfC exactly demonstrates the problems that caused it to be brought in the first place. He has continued to mock

• - weird, multi-syllable names
• see edit summary Hilarious that the bacon-prince complains about my scholarship

and attack other editors

• I trust that Worm and DU shall not be stalking my real-life movements, going through my garbage, or otherwise expanding their investigations

expounding his view that other editors are inferior to himself

• see edit summary Alas, you all are not alone in lacking the skills to read, to reason, and to write.
• consider yourself lucky that I have downgraded your category from promising youngster to only not worth my time

and should not be allowed to comment

• My suggestion was that you ask somebody with greater ability and experience to draft an RfC,
• Please go away,
• I really lack the time and inclination to read your RfC;

and treating any criticism, however mild, as a personal attack on himself

• [39]
• [40].

(Note, Kiefer.Wolfowitz's struck out comments relate to the struck out version.) (note 2, at request of parties, diffs added as at 10:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)) (note 3, changed layout as I had to fix a couple of duff diffs, and it was easier to see this way Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:49, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary:

1. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:48, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

   In answer to your question, Elen, I do not agree with your view. In fact, I view this as another example of your avoiding the question of your NPA violation above, and your misusing this forum and violating its ground rules, by putting this discussion piece as a further view.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:56, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

2. I think that the only person who really has the ability to stop this is Kiefer.Wolfowitz Worm^TT · (talk) 23:02, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3. Very much so. the example of trying to justify DemiUrge by someone who obviously must know the conventions of Wikipedia usernames is imo a blatant refusal to cooperate, and shows the intent to continue non-coperation. DGG ( talk ) 22:55, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
4. causa sui (talk) 19:32, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
5. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
6. Yes, 100% obvious. The stricken comment in response to Elen is further proof (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:48, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kiefer Wolfowitz does good work here, of which the Shapley–Folkman lemma is only one such example. He is overall, a big net positive to the project. I would hate for him to leave. However, there are problems with his interactions, and I fear that he may go away from this RfC without taking the legitimate criticisms to heart.

We all have the tendency to think that those who disagree with us are suspect in some way, that they are ignorant, immature, stupid, unwise or acting in bad faith. This may be true sometimes, but oftentimes it is not.

Kiefer should keep in mind that good people can legitimately disagree, and that others may have good reasons for believing the things they believe. If he takes this heart, and takes a bit more seriously the politeness policy, he can avoid much unnecessary conflict and get more done while causing less friction.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. --LK (talk) 11:25, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:33, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:59, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
4. DGG ( talk ) 22:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
5. Similarly to my comments on DGG's Worm^TT · (talk) 13:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
6. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:31, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
7. Sensible statement: especially regarding "good people can legitimately disagree" and the benefits of politeness. I think KW will take on board legitimate criticisms made here, because he is an intelligent editor: a lessor editor would not be able to see through the confrontation, the wikipolitics, the knee-jerk responses and attacks... to get to the genuine concerns. It make take time, but I believe KW will. Geometry guy 23:04, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
8.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC). I understand the spirit of the sentence about good people. However, good educated persons must disagree with the relevance of the statement "good people can legitimately disagree" here, because nobody has denied it. I do object to the weak "can" when "do" or no helping-verb would be preferable: Good people sometimes disagree. However, in this case, if the disagreement is not just different ways of saying the same thing, but involves the simultaneous denial and assertion of a proposition, then at most one of them can be correct; the disagreement should be resolved by use of the highest quality, most reliable sources, if possible, not by continuing to fill Wikipedia with junk.[reply]

With respect to younger editors, as one of the biologically older ones here, I find that they respond very favorably to being treated as equals. They will recognize greater knowledge and experience when it exists, if they haven't been previously offended. And, with respect to judgment, some of those art Wikipedia are the equal of anyone 3 or 4 times their age. When I remember how I was at their age, many of them here put me to shame. Even if what they say should be immature and uneducated, the solution is appropriate and patient education, not blame or abuse.

Some of the comments made by KW on talk pages when he thinks such to be the case are in my opinion almost unforgivably rude, and any one of them would justify a warning; and the continuation of them would justify a block. In the circumstances, what I think appropriate is a final warning that any further such comments will be met by increasing blocks.

I recognize KW's superlative work on many subjects. Even more than Wikipedia need excellent work by the currently active contributors, it needs to recruit and develop new ones who will do similarly good work. Comments like [41] (Aug.6, 2011) will discourage the participation of not just the person to whom they are directed, but anyone who sees them. There is never any need for them: even if it were true that the response or lack of it "signifies a character defect or ignorance of politics or scholarship." . It is never appropriate at Wikipedia to suggest someone has a character defect any more than to suggest they have a mental illness. I consider such behavior block-worthy, if necessary to prevent continuation.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. DGG ( talk ) 22:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3. Eluchil404 (talk) 04:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
4. I endorse this, especially in regards to the great work KW does. As KW points out, many of his rude comments are in retaliation for (and in my opinion escalation of) other rude comments, or when he is under significant pressure. That's not excusing them, but is worth noting. Worm^TT · (talk) 13:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
5. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:36, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
6. Totally agree, and the diff you cite is one of a series of snide attempts by KW to undermine Worm. Such attempts are contemptible, whether caused by pressure or not. I'm sure Worm has political views, but like everyone else here, I don't know what they are - far better to be able to demonstrate neutrality by being thus above factionalism, than to be someone who goes "bananas" and abandons courtesy and respect for others after being faced with an opposing political viewpoint. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:45, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
7. causa sui (talk) 16:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This situation can solved in with two things:

• Kiefer.Wolfowitz needs to say things in a nicer and non-demeaning manner, even when he thinks the other person is a total idiot. If he has a tendency to be rude, then he's free to leave Wikipedia and take his rudeness away.
• Everyone else involved in this needs to stop interacting with him, even if provoked. This RfC was a poorly-thought-out idea. We all knew that it would only create more tension and arguments. If everyone just shut up and left each other alone, I don't think the problem would have persisted.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 01:37, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:36, 19 October 2011 (UTC) Fetchomms was misrepresented by Worm/David, but the evidence was removed from here by Elen.[reply]
3. FeydHuxtable (talk) 15:00, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
4. Agreed with the first point, except its last part. The second point shows a wild misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is here for, and what values we should seek to uphold. If we react to a named academic, a living person, being publicly defamed on Wikipedia, gratuitously, across multiple venues, and his repeated protests being sneered at, by telling him that his best reaction to his accuser is to "stop interacting with him, even if provoked", then we will drive away yet more academics, we will continue to destroy the groundbase of educated people that Wikipedia needs to survive. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:21, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
5. Partial endorse. "Everyone else involved in this needs to stop interacting with him, even if provoked" places an entirely unacceptable requirement on other editors. Furthermore, despite the views of some editors here, KW is not a diva and should not be treated as one. However, despite my concerns about this statement, I endorse that some editors may consider the benefit in steering clear of unnecessary interactions, not provoking KW, and walking away from confrontation. KW may also benefit from such advice: it cuts both ways, and the first part of this outside view is food for thought. Geometry guy 23:17, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
6. Vaguely agree with the spirit of this comment. I do not agree that the ignoring a problem is the best solution - I've tried that and the problem didn't go away. However, I don't see any productive reason to carry this RfC on, and have suggested closure on the talk page Worm^TT · (talk) 07:41, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
7. Yeah, give him space because he has trouble letting go himself. [For clarity, I changed my user name recently. I'm "Have mörser, will travel" above.] Uʔ (talk) 21:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The editor has resigned in a huff [42]. Regretfully KW seems to be a little drama prone. My only real interaction with him resulted in a post at the Feminism Wikiproject because he perceived my comments as sexist (!) - demonstrating an utter misunderstanding of ..... well a lot of things on WP I'm afraid. Whilst very capable on many levels, KW is also a little clueless in others; and rather too thin skinned at times - indeed perceiving insults when none are present seems a common trait... I'm not posting diffs as it's not germane to the thrust of my post, but background setting. I'd propose this RFC/U now be archived as providing far, far more heat than light and KW can remain retired from a hobby he was clearly starting to hate.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Pedro :  Chat  19:44, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:41, 19 October 2011 (UTC) Not supporting archiving though - he's come back and is still posting...things. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:50, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3. Weak support for the first half, stronger for the second. Nolelover ^{Talk·Contribs} 14:35, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
4. I'm not worried about the huff or his comments regarding sexism, but I agree with the rest here. I don't see any productive reason to carry this on, and have suggested closure on the talk page Worm^TT · (talk) 07:39, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is time to close this RfC, since it creates (and has already created) much more problems and conflicts than it resolves. (I repeat the opinion of Pedro and Fetchcomms — instead of endorsing it — since it should be easier to comment on a view which contains only one simple statement.)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Sasha (talk) 16:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. Close it now. Waste of time, much like Kiefer, I regret to say. Pedro :  Chat  19:40, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:41, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

   I think we're done here. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:15, 22 October 2011 (UTC)Strike that, he's off again [43]. This RfC hasn't created the problem, it's just revealed it. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:46, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

4. Endorse, per Geometry guy. Hasn't it turned out well? Well, no, obviously not. Despite the efforts of WormTT, who has behaved commendably throughout (e.g. here, where he notified Lihaas an hour before I went there to do so), this RfC has reignited and escalated conflict. Some editors have (apparently) come to this RfC with preconceptions: that KW is a "bad or flawed editor" who needs to be "fixed". As is inevitable in the flawed process that is RfC/U, some have pursued those preconceptions and have found self-justification in the process (seek and ye shall find). For example, in the heat of the moment, some editors might feel that this adversarial post was like the final court scene in A Few Good Men where the protagonist finally exposes the true nature of the antagonist. I submit instead that those events demonstrate how much more complex the real world is, even in the microcosm of Wikipedia, and just how much we all have to learn. I hope some of these editors (including an arbitrator who seems to react first, ask questions later, then backpedal or strike her comments) will go away and reflect, in a few months time, whether their actions were helpful here. Geometry guy 00:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
5. I don't see any productive reason to carry this on, and have suggested closure on the talk page Worm^TT · (talk) 07:36, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
6. causa sui (talk) 16:52, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
7. There is a law on the books to the effect that someone who goes into public life and politics becomes less protected when it comes to being criticized by others. Editors who choose to work on political pages on wiki can similarly expect to have to absorb a greater percentage of flak, or else should limit their contributions to safer subjects. The ultimate source of this RfC may have been a difference in political outlook, and such a difference will not go away easily. Certainly this RfC should be closed before it wastes any more of everybody's time. Tkuvho (talk) 18:30, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
8.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:47, 26 October 2011 (UTC). I have tried to suggest an alternative closing summary, which was rejected (with some respectful acknowledgments however) by WTT, but which seems to have been ignored by others, alas. I have commented on WTT's and TParis's closings. Last, I have suggested a closing subcommittee, which seems to have been formed, which I trust can write a carefully worded summary.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:47, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
9. DGG ( talk ) 00:00, 27 October 2011 (UTC) Alas, it seems like KF's comments here have continued to demonstrate an attitude so out of keeping with Wikipedia norms, such as the view that only one side can be right in content disputes, that the action which can be taken here will not solve the problem. DGG ( talk ) 00:00, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.

I believe I am uninvolved in this dispute. I have participated in this RFC/U only in an uninvolved admin closing capacity.

This has been a difficult close. I've attempted to find a compromise between the filing parties and Kierfer Wolfowitz but there has been too much mudslinging from both sides for this to be possible. I am going to have to close this how I have read the RFC/U and based on the endorsements above. At this time, there is no significant input from anyone besides Kiefer Wolfowitz and this RFC/U has run it's course. Here are the results.

Kiefer Wolfowitz is a valuable contributor to the encyclopedia. All participates very strongly agree that KW's participation in the project is a net plus and would hate to see this RFC result in his absence from the project. In addition, Carrite has said their view was improperly conveyed by Worm That Turned and Demiurge1000. A few editors have also felt that this RFC is not productive or appropriate.

However, at times his communication habits have tended to learn toward incivility in the least and personal attacks at worst. No matter a person's excellent contributions, all editors are treated with the same rules. KW's opinion of young editors, especially in RFAs, is not necessarily wrong but the way his opinion was communicated was inappropriate. Kiefer often has trouble accepting constructive criticism without perceiving it as a personal attack or becoming defensive.

To move forward, KW has agreed voluntarily with two viewpoints in particular (Fetchcomms and Sławomir Biały) that he can be tactless and aggressive in discussions, although most editors can be at times, and that he should try to minimize the behavior and be a little more respectful to those around him (close paraphrasing of Sławomir Biały) and also that he should say things in a nicer and non-demeaning manner (close paraphrasing of Fetchcomms). He has also agreed on the talk page in his proposed closing statement that he cknowledges that WP:Oversight may be contacted in future cases involving minors voluntarying too specific personal information.

There has been no consensus for actions, restrictions, bans, or any other community sanctions on Kiefer Wolfowitz.

Truly, unbiased, and honestly, --v/r - TP 15:51, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.