AIM-174B (talk||history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)

For clarity, this request was ultimately closed by USER:Vpab15. It was initially closed (in good-faith) by USER:Asukite, and re-opened at my request. USER:Vpab15 ultimately closed it (in good-faith) ostensibly on-behalf of USER:Asukite, with a consensus of 3 (three) in-favor of KEEPING "AIM-174B" and 2 (two) in-favor of moving to "AIM-174." (full disclosure, I am the original author of the AIM-174 article) My position is that the article should be MOVED/REVERTED to “AIM-174.” My rationale for a MR:


1. "AIM-174 air-to-air missile" was moved to "AIM-174B", in good-faith, but without discussion, as per WP:RM. WP:BOLD does not exempt one from WP. At the very least the page should be reverted, per WP:RMUM. This was my rationale for attempting to move it on my own, originally, but was unable to do so for technical reasons, and ultimately began this move discussion. I recognize that "air-to-air missile" is unneeded due to WP:CONCISE.

2. The term “AIM-174” is freely-used -- admittedly alongside "AIM-174B" -- among sources^[1][2][3] and is easily recognizable.

3. WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE emphasize titles should be concise and precise, obviously. The title “AIM-174” is sufficiently precise to cover the entire missile family, including the AIM-174B variant. It avoids unnecessary complexity and redundancy.

4. WP:CONSISTENT, virtually all missiles -- and ALL U.S. air-to-air-missiles -- use the base model as their article title. While the AIM-174B is the only known operational variant, does that mean we should change the AIM-54 Phoenix article to "AIM-54C," given that, at the end of the Phoenix's life, it was the only operational variant? Per WP:CONSISTENT, see: AIM-4 Falcon, AIM-26 Falcon, AIM-47 Falcon, AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-7 Sparrow, AIM-54 Phoenix, AIM-68 Big Q, AIM-82, AIM-95 Agile, AIM-97 Seekbat, AIM-120 AMRAAM, AIM-132, AIM-152 AAAM, AIM-260

5. WP:DISAMBIG, WP:PRECISE; the current title “AIM-174B” may imply that there are multiple significant variants that require disambiguation. However, the primary subject of the article is the AIM-174 missile as a whole, with the AIM-174B being a variant, in-line with US missile naming conventions. Using “AIM-174” as the title encompasses all possible variants without the need for additional disambiguation or future discussion. FOR EXAMPLE: All AIM-9Xs are AIM-9s. All AIM-7Cs are AIM-7s. etc.

6. No one has made any attempt at editing the body or lead, which opens with "AIM-174." Indeed, as it stands currently, "AIM-174B" is not mentioned until the end of the intro. (and intro which, in full disclosure, I wrote) Indeed, I would argue that as a compromise, we could move the mention of the "AIM-174B" up to within the first sentence or two.
MWFwiki (talk) 23:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Involved editor comment - I just want to note that I regret reverting my closure in this case as it has likely made the situation worse and now involved another editor who was inevitably dragged into this - thanks, in any case, and sorry for that.

I won't offer any opinion as to the close, but will note that of the prevalent voices in the discussion, there was an imbalance in civility and a clear lack of consensus. ASUKITE 03:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn to no consensus, move to AIM-174 This is a very tricky discussion, because the original page was "AIM-174 air-to-air missile", it was moved unilaterally to "AIM-174B" recently in September (note the suffix), and the move discussion was to move it from "AIM-174B" to "AIM-174." In short, we have two different moves here: whether to remove "air-to-air missile" and whether the suffix should be used. In terms of dropping the "missile" part, I think there's clear consensus in that discussion to shorten the name. I do not see any consensus as to whether it should be AIM-174 or AIM-174B, though, but rather two opposing arguments without a clear policy winner. As a result, it should revert to whatever the status quo is, which in this case would be "AIM-174" without the "missile" part. If anything, I'm not sure discussion doesn't favour the shorter title - one opposer wants to maintain the status quo, but there isn't a status quo, and one of the non-specifically-voting commenters says it's unnecessary without being completely supportive of it. SportingFlyer T·C 05:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think your analysis of the separation of the problems with the RM identifies the issue I have parsing the RM and this MRV. I do think that there are two issues that may have individually been separated and could be read as consensus against the longer disambiguator but no consensus for B/no B. I take issue with the participating mover's interpretation of policy "Unfortunately for you, a no consensus decision will result in this article staying here" in the RM, and would instead endorse your idea that aligns with policy, that a no consensus would take us back the original title, sans extra disambiguatotr. This is definitely a policy argument that is splitting hairs, but I think you've correctly identified the issues at play here. Bobby Cohn (talk) 14:52, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, I saw that and completely disagree that a "no consensus" result would validate a recent page move. SportingFlyer T·C 17:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm also surprised other people think there was consensus here. SportingFlyer T·C 07:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Not the strongest consensus but the view that the close was not outside the scope of WP:RMCI is reasonable and good faith interpretation. The outcome could have swung either way here, to be honest. I've refrained from bolding my opinion here as well. You win some, you lose some. The view that I wanted to make sure I endorsed in my reply to your !vote above was the idea that the procedure may be complicated on the reversal and I stand by that, in the event the decision is reversed or vacated, that should be the proper policy procedure. Bobby Cohn (talk) 15:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse. The RM starter was not happy with a certain element of a bold move, while the other part was non-contentious. He contested said element of the move and failed, as the consensus was to keep the specific contested change made to the name. The bold move was therefore taken over by a consensus at RM: implicit consensus concerning the non-contentious element + explicit consensus concerning the remaining contentious element = consensus for the entire thing. The closer correctly recognized this.—Alalch E. 23:39, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse. It's easy to see both sides of this issue, and I tend to agree with Alalch E. that the closer correctly read the RM survey and discussion. This closure was reasonable and in line with the closing instructions. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 05:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality law of North Macedonia (talk||history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)

The move request for renaming Nationality law of North Macedonia to "North Macedonian nationality law" was closed as not move, (although with votes 3-2 in favour of my proposal), and the closer relied the decision on a statement of WP:MOSMAC that is not part of the community consensus reached in the 2019-RFC. This statement tells us Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether.

There are two main problems with this statement and the closure of the move request:

1) A recent move request for renaming Macedonian denar to "Denar of North Macedonia" was rejected, and the followed-up move review was rejected unanimously, and none of the editors was convinced about the above statement, which I include in the move review. The two different decisions made in these two recent move requests tell us that decisions are made without considering wikipedia policies WP:NC and guidelines WP:MOSMAC. If there is a guideline that tells us to avoid adjectives in article titles, then Macedonian denar should be renamed to "Denar of North Macedonia". If this is not true, then Nationality law of North Macedonia should be renamed to "North Macedonian nationality law". Either way is okay, but my brain cannot accept double standards by pointing to the same guideline/exception/statement. One of the participants in the two move requests opposed Denar of North Macedonia but then strongly defended Nationality law of North Macedonia, pushing double standards in a non-scientific way.

2) I will share here some research that I did and already discussed with the closer and shows that the closer was trapped (me too as well a few weeks ago) by a statement, the validity of which has been raised in Talk:2019 North Macedonian presidential election#Article title move and includes a discussion about the statement: Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether started by an editor, FlavrSavr, who was involved in the RFC 2019 and who opposed "North" in all cases (shown in the votes in all questions).

Editors Teratix and Number 57 participated in the long discussion with FlavrSavr.

FlavrSavr said: The actual policy clearly states that Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether. and specifies in which cases "North Macedonian" may be used.

Number57 said: Then whoever has formulated the policy has ignored the outcome of the RfC. Perhaps this needs to be flagged up at WP:AN or somewhere, as it's not really acceptable for a clear outcome from a community discussion to be ignored when translating it into policy.

FlavrSavr then responded to Number 57 with a long message that includes: The sentence in question was proposed by me and inspired by Argean's and other comments in the RfC - this really was a no-brainer for most of us as it seems to be a natural and neutral resolution, and this wasn't opposed by anyone.

MJL (main contributor of WP:MOSMAC) joined the discussion and added: Actually, on a second read through, I have become very concerned by Number 57's comments.

Future Perfect at Sunrise joined the discussion and added: The sentence in question ... was not covered by the original RfC but was written into the draft unilaterally by MJL – certainly with the best of intentions. and ... And if there are groups of articles where local editors consider adjectival titles preferable for WP:CONSISTENCY reasons, we definitely have a problem and I'm not sure at all we should treat that WP:NCMAC sentence as authoritative.

qedk (one of the three editors in the closing of RFC 2019) commented: Since, the LOCALCONSENSUS surrounding the inclusion of that singular sentence has certainly changed, either it should be removed, or reframed in a manner, where it doesn't sound like policy. And given, WP:LOCALCONSENSUS explicity states — Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale, this particular statement cannot be held above the policy formed at the behest of the community. With thanks.

Argean joined the discussion and said: This particular sentence was proposed by FlavrSavr to be added in Future Perfect at Sunrise's first draft and was never questioned by anybody until now.

To remind you that FlavrSavr was involved in the RFC 2019 and opposed "North", so the idea of adding this special statement to WP:MOSMAC was a way to avoid the community consensus as much as possible and was proposed by an editor who disagrees with "North Macedonian", and this was done only after the RFC 2019. Not fair at all in my opinion.

One of the last comments of this discussion was by qedk, who is one of the three closers of the RFC 2019.

qedk said: To note for posterity's sake, the post-RfC drafting was mostly done by FPaS and MJL, and with SilentResident, Argean, Khajidha, FlavrSavr chipping in. Now, if out of those we already have two editors (FPaS and Khajidha in contention, on different things), you cannot say that the LOCALCONSENSUS persists. Noting again, that Teratix and Number 57 do not see it as an accurate summarization as well. I do not mean to question it when you say that it's in good intent and that it's meant to prevent conflicts but what I am saying is, you cannot have it override community consensus, which in this case, was clear and not a LOCALCONSENSUS.

All these prove that the statement about articles has been disputed by multiple editors already, but was not removed from WP:MOSMAC although suggested by the closing panel of the RFC 2019. The argument of the closer of this move request about this statement that doesn't allow adjectives in titles is incorrect, and couldn't be correct because WP:LOCALCONSENSUS cannot override community consensus achieved in 2019-RFC, in which The closing panel agrees that there is consensus for Both "North Macedonian" and "... of North Macedonia", where a similar form would be used for other countries. e.g. the North Macedonian Government or the Government of North Macedonia. for State-associated and other public entities.

The second argument of the closer about implicit consensus on the WP:MOSMAC guidelines (discussed in the talk page) because nobody removed this incorrect sentence against community consensus is also incorrect because we have multiple examples of article titles that use the adjective, see North Macedonian passport, 2019 North Macedonian presidential election, 2020 North Macedonian parliamentary election, 2024 North Macedonian presidential election, and 2024 North Macedonian parliamentary election. As already mentioned in the move review for Macedonian denar, the reason WP:MOSMAC was used in these examples but not in Macedonian denar and Nationality law of North Macedonia is the lack of experienced editors and the law participation that are eliminated by editors with double standards.

The experienced editors @Number 57 and @Teratix have been consistently using WP:MOSMAC for years in pages of North Macedonian elections, and I don't understand why we need to use double standards enforced by a single editor in other pages.

Nationality law of North Macedonia is completely inconsistent with all other pages of Category:Nationality_law and should be moved all in line with WP:CONSISTENT and WP:MOSMAC and 2019-RFC community consensus.

Thank you all for your time. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 22:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from closer - First off, the move request was closed as no consensus, not as not moved. Additionally, I’m slightly unsure if the nominator is aware about WP:NOTAVOTE, as part of their opening statement here explicitly mentions a vote count: although with votes 3-2 in favour of my proposal. estar8806 (talk) ★ 23:38, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse. As long as WP:MOSMAC says what it does, no consensus is the only possible closure; it's a classic case of "If the discussion shows that some people think one policy is controlling, and some another, the closer is expected to close by judging which view has the predominant number of responsible Wikipedians supporting it, not personally select which is the better policy". The main concern here seems to be that MOSMAC itself doesn't reflect consensus, but that's not an issue for move review: it should be raised on the guideline's talk page and/or in a new RfC. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:25, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse two distinct policy interpretations without any majority in favour of one or the other, there's no other way to close this. SportingFlyer T·C 02:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse (uninvolved). Appropriate closure of no consensus, two appropriately argued policies that neither may be discounted. Bobby Cohn (talk) 14:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse - On the one hand, the close of No Consensus correctly summarizes a lengthy and inconclusive discussion. On the other hand, the appellant's statement, at 1183 words, is also lengthy and inconclusive. Should our instructions for opening a Move Review include a statement that concise statements are usually more effective? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment by nominator Thank you everybody for your comments, very appreciated! One question though: votes don't count, arguments count, and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS cannot override community consensus as correctly or incorrectly written in WP:MOSMAC. So far so good. Then who can explain me why "Denar of North Macedonia" was rejected in the move request and the move review, and now "North Macedonian nationality law" is also rejected in the move request and move review by using the opposite argument? Both the denar and nationality law fall into the same category of WP:MOSMAC -- State-associated and other public entities -- I really want to know. I see double standards here. You look at the problem locally by focusing on the tree but you miss the whole forest. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 19:09, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Both moves were closed as "no consensus" which shouldn't be taken as acknowledgement that either of the current titles are the "correct" ones. It just means that there wasn't consensus for or against the moves, which means the end result is maintaining the status quo. RachelTensions (talk) 20:29, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Macedonian denar was closed as "not moved", but I see your point and is helpful to me, thanks. I read your reasoning as: Editors can argue against proposals even if the proposals are correct per WP:MOSMAC and per all wikipedia policies, and nobody can stop these editors even if we have scientific evidence that proves that. This again goes back to "we count votes" although we say we don't, and we "ignore policies/guidelines" otherwise it would be impossible that "Denar of North Macedonia" was rejected against WP:MOSMAC that tells us Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether., and later "Nationality law of North Macedonia" was maintained because WP:MOSMAC tells us Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether.. This is a contradiction that drives me crazy, and the only reasonable answer for accepting this contradictions is that we override community consensus based on a random group of 2-3 people who are involved in RMs, but this contradicts WP:LOCALCONSENSUS that tells us Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale..

What is the community consensus that cannot be overridden by local consensus? Isn't WP:MOSMAC? Then who is going to apply WP:MOSMAC and ignore local consensus? If WP:MOSMAC tells us to have "Nationality law of North Macedonia", then it also tells us to have "Denar of North Macedonia". Can you decide what WP:MOSMAC tells us and then use it to everything?

You treat the problem as bureaucracy, but we should treat it in a scientific way and build an encyclopedia. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 20:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Macedonian denar (talk||history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)

I opened a move request for Macedonian denar and proposed to move it to Denar of North Macedonia (like in the case of Category:Nationality_law where North Macedonia follows a different format) or to North Macedonian denar which is the most common name backed-up with reliable sources -- 70%. The move request was closed today as "not moved".

In my humble opinion, multiple wikipedia policies have been overlooked. I list my arguments below.

1. Wikipedia tells us what Consensus means:

Consensus on Wikipedia neither requires unanimity (which is ideal but rarely achievable), nor is it the result of a vote.

and Wikipedia tells us how consensus is formed:

editors open a section on the associated talk page and try to work out the dispute through discussion, using reasons based in policy, sources, and common sense; they can also suggest alternative solutions or compromises that may satisfy all concerns.

2. North Macedonia's policies Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia)#Adjectival form of North Macedonia tell us what name to use:

However, in line with the reliable sources, adjectives may still be used when referring to such institutions in generic terms (e.g. the Greek and North Macedonian prime ministers), especially where the possessive form would be grammatically cumbersome or unnatural. While reliable sources continue to use both plain "Macedonian" and "North Macedonian" in such contexts, the majority opinion in the RfC favored the fuller form, "North Macedonian".

Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether. The use of neutral formulations such as "of North Macedonia", "in North Macedonia," etc. is preferred.

In my humble opinion, the general wikipedia's policies about consensus, and the specific North Macedonia's policies make clear that the editors have set default rules in favour of North Macedonian denar (or perhaps Denar of North Macedonia because of the last clause).

3. On the top of the already clear consensus and naming policies, the talk page of Macedonian denar hides an old move request that is backed-up by a long list Talk:Macedonian denar/Archive 2 of reliable sources that was collected by users who agreed and opposed, and the closer found a clear consensus, and I quote here the summary of their study:

List of Reliable Sources (North Macedonian denar: 135 findings, North Macedonia denar: 57 findings, Macedonian denar: 89 findings)

Therefore, North Macedonian denar is WP:COMMONNAME and this is backed-up with reliable sources that show: 70% of reliable webpages include "North" (48% is North Macedonian denar) and only 30% use "Macedonian denar".

4. WP:COMMONNAME tells us what common name means:

Generally, article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources. When this offers multiple possibilities, editors choose among them by considering several principles: the ideal article title precisely identifies the subject; it is short, natural, distinguishable and recognizable; and resembles titles for similar articles.

North Macedonian denar is the most common name in reliable sources (70%), precisely identifies the currency of North Macedonia, it is as short as the name of the country, it is the natural adjective in the english language, it is the best distinguishable and recognizable option, and it resembles titles for similar articles, and the most important criterion is that "North Macedonian" was agreed for State-associated and other public entities in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia)#Adjectival form of North Macedonia.

5. Similar discussions have been made for years under the talk pages of 2019 North Macedonian presidential election, 2020 North Macedonian parliamentary election, 2024 North Macedonian parliamentary election. There the wikipedia policies for North Macedonia naming were used, because there were experienced editors who protected the pages. In the case of Macedonian denar, the lack of experienced editors involved in the discussion for the move request leads to a messy situation.

6. To see the issue from a different point of view. If an editor thinks there is no clear consensus for North Macedonian denar should wonder if there is clear consensus for Macedonian denar. North Macedonia's policies tell us the default rules to use unless a clear consensus is made against them. I don't see any clear consensus for Macedonian denar, I see only 30% using plain Macedonian. Clear consensus perhaps means 80% or at least 70% but definitely not 30%.

7. To close this discussion, I am convinced that all wikipedia policies suggest North Macedonian denar, and if someone believes there is no clear consensus (because of counting votes instead of using policies and sources) then the answer is found at a wikipedia policy from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia)#Adjectival form of North Macedonia.

In the absence of a clearer consensus on which of the two to prefer, it is recommended to use the longer form where ambiguity might be an issue (especially on first introducing the topic).

Sorry for the long comment, I had to do some research to find this information and perhaps it is worth sharing it with editors who are interested but perhaps not aware of it. Thank you everyone for taking the time to read this. Hopefully, after this discussion wikipedia will be improved. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 21:00, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse closure (uninvolved). Alternatively, a closure of "not moved to Denar of North Macedonia, no consensus on North Macedonian denar" may have been more accurate an acceptable close, but I don't see the original closure as out of step with WP:RMCI. This is getting into WP:Trainwreck-adjecent territory; the RM was opened without a clear preference for the page destination and it looks to me like it was originally argued that Denar of North Macedonia was the preference, only to then shift to arguing that North Macedonian denar was more appropriate. My reading of the consensus and discussion on the RM is that there was a clear consensus against the first, while it is less clear on the second. I don't see grounds here to overturn completely. Bobby Cohn (talk) 16:20, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your time. Overturn completely is not what I ask for. Following wikipedia policies that suggest "North" and considering reliable sources, 70% of which include "North", is exactly what I ask for. It's sad that apparently I didn't manage to send you my message. I would prefer to read comments that consider wikipedia policies and the 70%. If you want to agree with someone you first need to talk about the "same" topic; with the assumption that policies and reliable sources don't matter, which is what your comment implies as they are not discussed, I have no particular reason to disagree with you. Ignoring policies and sources perhaps allows you only with the option of counting votes, and this is the problem as it contradicts Consensus. Denar of North Macedonia is fine fore me (like in the case of Category:Nationality_law); there is a clause that suggests it, and I thought this was clear as well. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 17:07, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse there's absolutely no consensus for a move here - every editor opposing clearly did a WP:COMMONNAME search and opposed on valid policy grounds. (Also, just to make sure we haven't made a mistake, I looked into COMMONNAME: I'm also not sure it is 70% more common - I only get 10 results for "North Macedonian denar" on Google Scholar as opposed to 100+ since the country's name change, and normal currency exchange websites use "Macedonian denar." So for me this looks like an unanimous oppose using valid policy arguments.) SportingFlyer T·C 17:50, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your time. It's interesting your google shows only 10 results. The problem I have with search engines is that I get too many results for North Macedonian denar but they are not reliable. The problem with Macedonian denar is that the results include results for North Macedonian denar giving the impression of a much larger but incorrect number. To make sure you get them right, please see this list Talk:Macedonian denar/Archive 2 of reliable sources discussed in the move request, sorry for forgetting to add a link. Some of these links are not accessible anymore but they are all reliable as judged by the closer who found a clear consensus, and yes as you confirm now with your eyes 70% include "North". Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 18:18, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UPDATE 20/10/2024 I looked at google scholar for "Macedonian denar" and see 100 results that include those for "North Macedonian denar", and if you open the first 3 out of 4 results, it is the same book with title "Macedonia's Long Transition" and thus the 100 results you mention include multiple duplicates, and another problem is that the authors of the book are from North Macedonia, which should be excluded according to the way the 2019-RFC for North Macedonia was conducted. I looked at many of the other results and show that the authors are based in North Macedonia. Did you check each of these books to ensure that the reference to Macedonian denar is not at historical context? Because in that case, Macedonian denar would be expected. Another problem with books/research work is that they are prepared for publication much earlier than they are submitted and finally accepted, and in the meantime the authors do not necessarily update every term unless it's critical for the conclusion of the work. Therefore the 100+ results that you reported are incorrect because you didn't check any of the above criteria. The study that shows 70% include "North" have considered all these criteria. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 22:09, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The move you mentioned was overturned. Furthermore this isn't a second move request, but rather a review to see if the person closing made a mistake. SportingFlyer T·C 04:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it was overturned because users violated wikipedia policies. Everybody accepted the reliability of the sources, which is still 70% and cannot change. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 05:34, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment to All: Two editors have commented so far and none of them responded to my quotes for wikipedia policies. We continue playing the same game that started with the move request. People don't see, people don't know, people don't understand, people have all these skills required to overlook wikipedia policies. As a non-experienced user I accept my mistake and the wrong way of expressing my thoughts in the move request, and I opened this move review as suggested by the closer. If editors intentionally avoid discussing wikipedia policies, I recommend to everyone to close this move review ASAP, because we are wasting our time, and we don't help wikipedia becoming better. By avoiding discussing if the closure was correct while ignoring the wikipedia policies written above gives a bad example to editors who have a bias, and from my personal experience I can tell you that you don't help me to learn how I can contribute to wikipedia if its policies are not used. I am not here to bother people, and my experience so far is too much "bureaucracy". People play ping pong and move the ball from the one side to the other without answering my question which by the way is very simple: why North Macedonia's policies Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia)#Adjectival form of North Macedonia that are in favour of "North" are not used for the currency of the country, while reliable sources confirm 70% use "North"? If experienced, not biased, and uninvolved editors don't know the answer, then who knows? Please help me! Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 05:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we see you've brought a lot of policy arguments to this WP:MRV. We can also see that those who opposed your arguments did so while citing to WP:COMMONNAME. You'll note that COMMONNAME is a part of our Wikipedia:Article titles project page, this also represents policy. You also feel that your arguments are more in line with policy than those who you feel just don't understand your arguments well enough and that they can't possibly be right. However, in determining consensus (the policy page to which you keep citing) tells us we must consider their views—as wrong as you feel they may be—as well as yours and that neither can be dismissed out of hand because they both contain rational arguments. We also look to see who agreed and disagreed with the respective arguments in their !votes.

You think that editors here also aren't fully considering your policy arguments, and why not, yours are the only ones that could possibly make sense in this situation. However, move review isn't for re-litigating your policy arguments. Review the WP:MRV page and see that it's for determining if the closure was out of scope with WP:RMCI, or if there was significant additional information not discussed in the page move discussion. Note that:

• Do not request a move review simply because you disagree with the outcome of a page move discussion. While the comments in the move discussion may be discussed in order to assess the rough consensus of a close, this is not a forum to re-argue a closed discussion.
• The instructions at § Initiating move reviews outline the two strongest arguments to be made for a proper WP:MRV, as I've summarised above.

You mention above that you aren't looking for an overturn so with this in mind, as well as the instructions for what this process is for, as outline above, I'm not sure what more there is to accomplish here. Bobby Cohn (talk) 15:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I assume good faith and that you are mistakenly distorting my words, I said "Overturn completely is not what I ask for." and as an experienced editor that you are, you know there are five options for the move review decision. Getting comments from experienced editors is what I expect, which was impossible from the rapid closure, and re-opening the move request is the right decision in my humble opinion. WP:COMMONNAME is your argument, but you don't tell me how "Macedonian denar" is more common while 70% of reliable sources include "North". If you give us 500 links for reliable sources of "Macedonian denar" after February 2019 then I will accept it as common name and I will publicly apologize for being wrong. Until then, there is proof for the opposite which you ignore. You also ignore that there is community consensus that suggests "North Macedonian" for State-associated and other public entities in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia)#Adjectival form of North Macedonia.

Community consensus cannot be overwritten by local consensus WP:LOCALCONSENSUS.

Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope

Perhaps you should take a look at: 2019-RFC that resulted in the current policies. To make it even easier for you, I report below what the community decided based on a long list of reliable sourced included in the page of the RFC:

1. State-associated and other public entities: What term should be used when referring to state-associated entities, including governmental organisations and official ranks, as well as other public entities from North Macedonia as specified in Prespa agreement?

   Option B: Both "North Macedonian" and "... of North Macedonia", where a similar form would be used for other countries. e.g. the North Macedonian Government or the Government of North Macedonia.

   The closing panel agrees that there is consensus for Option B. Furthermore, noting the fact that public entities are being retitled per Prespa agreement, newer sources find "North Macedonia"-related terminology more common, and we have the existing policies of WP:NAMECHANGES and WP:COMMONNAME.

So yes I understand all the words you wrote, but how you interpret wikipedia policies and common name and you conclude that there is consensus for "Macedonian denar" is something that I honestly cannot understand. Every policy explicitly tells us to use "North Macedonian" or "of North Macedonia". Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 21:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse the close as a proper reading of consensus. The appellant appears to be arguing that the consensus misinterprets policy. That is relitigation, because the appellant doesn't like the result. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your disrespect towards someone you don't know. Perhaps you could limit your comment to the situation and consider policies and argue against them. You found something to criticize me but not the 70% of reliable sources and North Macedonia's policies. We are here to build an encyclopedia, not to like or dislike the result, and overlooking community consensus and reliable sources is not how you build it. But this is my humble opinion, you have a different one and thanks for making that clear. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 07:17, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Open Free Eye you've responded to every comment here, in addition to making a follow up "comment to all" after two editors, myself included, left a message. You seem to be repeating a lot of your arguments in each instance. It's safe to assume editors are reading the extent of your arguments and the RM before weighing in. Please be mindful not to WP:BLUDGEON the process and realize that sometimes WP:WALLOFTEXT may work against you. With respect, Bobby Cohn (talk) 11:23, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse. The participants didn't think that the common name is different from the current name of "Macedonian denar]], so they decided not to move, and this was correctly recorded as "not moved".—Alalch E. 18:22, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't think? Do we build encyclopedias based on what we think? Perhaps you should start considering scientific evidence, which shows 70% use "North". Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 21:49, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Try again in a few years. —Alalch E. 22:16, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]