This discussion was closed as delete, with the possibility of merging. I don't think that's the appropriate course of action. Looking at the discussion, people proposing to either keep or merge the article seem to outweigh those arguing for deletion. In order to merge the content, we must preserve the page history by redirecting it. If this is not to be a standalone article, surely it should at least be merged and redirected with the article on the Senate race in question. Everyking (talk) 22:54, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It cannot be assumed that everyone calling for merge would want keep as a second choice. In fact, that is far from the case - many would clearly prefer delete judging by the comments in the debate. SpinningSpark00:07, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to merge. There would plenty of editors making a well-founded case against having this as a standalone article. However, I see no arguments against merging this to either the candidate article or the article on the election, and plenty of editors made a good case for such a merge. The closure was illogical, because deletion removes the possibility of a valid merge which retains edit history. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 00:04, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - Nothing wrong with the admin's conclusion following that discussion. As with most political AfDs, extra scrutiny is needed to weed out the "i like/hate it" crap. There is already mention of the event at Richard_Mourdock#Political_positions, therefore nothing to actually merge. Tarc (talk) 17:36, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A "delete and merge" close; those are sometimes a bit tricky. Technically it can be done, but it puts the onus on someone to preserve attribution because of the GFDL and the CC-BY-SA. Before we go any further, would the closer please confirm that he's performed the necessary history merge?—S MarshallT/C 18:07, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have not, histmerge is impossible in this case due to overlapping edits and preserving the deleted page title is not appropriate either. The procedure described at WP:PV would need to be adopted, which I will happily carry out on request if an editor indicates that they actually want to merge some of the original material (as opposed to writing something in the article from scratch). SpinningSpark19:25, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As that page is only undeleted for attribution purposes, and the merge is done, shouldn't the page be blanked? Otherwise, it is a pseudo-article. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:26, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse Negative political advertising. It's sufficient significant to be included in the article on him, but having a separate article on him is excessive weight. DGG ( talk ) 18:27, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(A7: Article about a website, blog, web forum, webcomic, podcast, browser game, or similar web content, which does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject)
I am requesting undeletion of Socialworkhelper.com. Although Socialworkhelper.com is an active social network, it also contains a free repository of resources as well as support groups for professionals and students. Additional, Socialworkhelper.com host the only live Social Work Twitter Chat in North America. Additionally, it is the only social network in the social work profession that utilize mobile web 2.0 and mobile app technology to engage users. Most importantly, the technology behind this network was created by a social worker, Deona Hooper, MSW. The relevance is that it's groundbreaking in a profession that has been very conservative in incorporating technology in both policy and practice. In the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0, I authored the Social Work 2.0 section, which any everything to do with Socialworkhelper.com was deleted. Prior to my additions, there were no mentions in Wikipedia as relates to Social Work and Technology. 08:53, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
reading these, I don't see the network even mentioned in the first, the second a notice from the founder's alumni magazine, which doesn't really count as an independent source, & the third a mere mention DGG ( talk ) 19:42, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The first link is still broken and the second isn't a reliable source. If this is what is out there than the deletion appears to have been well founded and I would oppose giving you false hope by even suggesting this has a shot at making mainspace. EndorseSpartazHumbug!08:11, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse I don't see anything in the original article that would have qualified as an assertion of significance and the sources presented above don't demonstrate anything like notability per DGG. We could userfy it, I suppose, but I don't see any prospect at all of getting an article which meets our inclusion criteria. Hut 8.521:08, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Rainbow Dash – Defaulting to endorse given that the nominator managed to get himself indeffed. Given the views expressed about giving this a chance, I'm willing to userfy this for any good faith user to try and get it up to scratch. – SpartazHumbug!10:31, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Character is more than notable enough for an article. Has a large fan base, many appearances and volumes of coverage on other sites. I have a new version of the article in my userspace that I intend to use (User:ResonX/Rainbow Dash). ResonX (talk) 05:16, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm struggling here. My first reaction was "well, you're taken the effort to write the article - at least we should allow recreation and a fresh afd" - but I'm not very sure about your sourcing. The bulk of the article has no inline sourcing, and the rest seems to be sourced from a forum and one blog. Is that enough? Hm.--Scott Mac19:19, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. My inclination is that it is not enough. The original AFD was strongly leaning toward merge, primarily because the only sourcing for notability as a separate character was blogs and fansites. Now we have a proposed new version that is sourced to... blogs and fansites. I'm sorry, but I don't see anything on the new article that particularly shows separate notability for the specific character. So my !vote could be summed up as Endorse status quo.- TexasAndroid (talk) 21:27, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And what's wrong with blogs and fansites? They should be acceptable as sources provided that they're popular enough, and they are clear demonstrations of notability. ResonX (talk) 21:40, 30 October 2012 (UTC) Also, if you need me to cite episodes and such for most of the in–universe stuff, I can add that. ResonX (talk) 21:45, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The core issue here is Notability, as defined by Wikipedia. For a reference to help establish Notability, it generally has to meet three points. Independence, Reliability, and Non-trivial. Blogs fail the Reliability part of that. There are (very) limited circumstances where blogs can be a reference, but they generally cannot be used to establish notability. And Notability, or lack of it, specifically notability separate from the show itself, is the issue at the core of the AFD, and thus this DRV. - TexasAndroid (talk) 21:54, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Browsing any site on the internet with user–generated content, you're going to run into ponies. These characters have HUGE fan bases that have written volumes about them and made enough art of them to fill museums. Rainbow Dash is the most popular of them all. There is no need for specific sources here, for a simple search will lead one to thousands upon thousands of hits for fan work about these characters. Also, "notability" as defined by Wikipedia is completely backwards and close–minded, and I've joined the site with the express purpose of having that definition changed. ResonX (talk) 22:01, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Good luck with that. But until/unless it changes, we have to deal with the definition as it currently stands. And as it stands, you need non-blog articles about the character, or something similar, if you want to show she has notability separate from the show itself. - TexasAndroid (talk) 22:07, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
She does. It's in the fandom. Didn't you understand what I just said? There are so many fan works about her, that combined they are all equivalent to several high–importance articles. Also, under the policy that I intend to push through, simply being storied enough would be enough to have an article. ResonX (talk) 22:57, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this page should be deleted. It doesn't comply with one of Wikipedia's most important article standards: notability. I'm on TexasAndroid's side. - by Kevin12cd... Tell me how I'm doing on my Talkpage!00:54, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Rainbow Dash is extremely notable. More notable than 90+ percent of fictional characters with pages on this site. Look at the statistics on fan pages devoted to her. How many more will it take to be enough for you people?! ResonX (talk) 00:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
ResonX, you need to speak more civilly. Even though other articles may drop the NOT, the only reason they have not been deleted is because they have not been discovered yet. It doesn't mean you can drop it, too. - by Kevin12cd... Tell me how I'm doing on my Talkpage!01:07, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but it's just that you people are really starting to vex me. There are few, if any, fictional characters today with bigger fandoms than the MLP characters. By denying them articles, you're basically saying that fan labor means NOTHING, no matter what the amount, and that only a few high–profile people that you've designated as "reliable" get to decide what matters. And obviously that's not the case. ResonX (talk) 01:11, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to be a good faith attempt to create an article in this space, by a good faith user. If ResonX absolutely insists, then he should be allowed to put it in (without prejudice to a subsequent AfD). The material definitely would not survive AfD and I'm certain it would be deleted again in short order, because the sourcing falls so far below our standards. I think it would be better if ResonX didn't insist. But if he does, it's not really DRV's role to stand in his way.—S MarshallT/C 08:34, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion "Popular" is not synonymous with "notable", which, as has been explained above, has a highly specific meaning on Wikipedia. Yes, many blogs, forums and fansites discuss Rainbow Dash. However, it does not appear that any reliable, independent sources do so. To take the version of the article currently at User:ResonX/Rainbow Dash, your sources comprise the following:
A Google Trends chart which, for me at least, is blank. That may be a failure of my browser, but nevertheless, even if I could see it it would not sufficiently support the statement in the article which you are using it to source.
An IMDb page - IMDb is specifically noted at WP:RS and WP:IMDB as an example of an unreliable source.
Behind the Voice Actors is a fairly trivial mention, but as far as I can tell, might meet the requirements for a reliable third-party source.
Ms. Magazine looks like a magazine article, but is actually a blog. WP:NEWSBLOG recommends treating such sources with considerable wariness - Kathleen Richter, whilst a blogger for MS., does not appear to be on their magazine staff, and so I'd consider this source no more reliable than any other blog.
In all that lot, then, you've provided one source (Behind the Voice Actors) with a couple of sentences on the subject that may meet the guidelines for supporting the topic's notability. Since the general notability guideline requires multiple sources, that's still insufficient to warrant undeleting the page. In short: "...what's wrong with blogs and fansites?" They aren't acceptable as sources here, that's what. Yunshui雲水08:44, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Permit draft to be moved to article space - The article was redirected in August 2011 as a result of the AfD. The current draft overcomes the reasons for the AfD redirect close. I think with some careful writing using available reliable sources, the topic can get past AfD. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 10:47, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Current draft doesn't appear to meet our inclusion guidelines as others have shown. I'm having a hard time imagining that sources aren't out there however. [1] has a reasonable mention. [2] also seems to have a little bit. I agree with S Marshall that ideally this would be fixed in user space first. But I'm okay with sending it to article space now as long as the author understands that A) as it stands it will likely be deleted and B) once deleted getting it back again is going to be harder. Hobit (talk) 15:04, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Allow move to Article space - I've not changed my basic position, but I'll concede that DRV is not the right place for this discussion. Allow for movement to mainspace of the new draft, but allow/expect an almost immediate new AFD (likely filed by myself) if Reliable Sources are not added before that happens. - TexasAndroid (talk) 16:07, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And... changing back once more to Endorse. With ResonX blocked, and his "I don't care for WP rules" attitude anyway, the chances of his current userspace draft being given proper RS is looking to be slim to none. - TexasAndroid (talk) 15:57, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - keep as a redirect. Bronies cobbling together a few blogs and other non-reliable sources does not overcome the reason why this thing was deleted in 2011. Yunshui's source analysis above nailed it. Tarc (talk) 13:22, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note ResonX's account is currently blocked indefinitely for disruptive editing; any move to userspace or expectation that the page will be improved there should probably take this fact into account. Yunshui雲水13:26, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
endorse - while theoretically it seems possible (and even perhaps likely) that reliable sources exist that would cover the topic in a sufficient manner to allow a creditable article, the current user space offering does not overcome the objections raised in the AfD, and I was not able to find any of those reliable sources that might exist somewhere. And this particular user being indeff blocked from even their talk page is not likely to be able to bring it up to standards anytime soon. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom15:07, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
This and similar articles, some editors feel serve the encylopedic purposes of academic and other types of research by enabling readers to compare and contrast television offerings by different providers. I believe that no consensus was reached in the discussions, and that too much weight was given to the vaguely-defined and poorly underpinned argument WP:NOTDIR and/or to spurious arguments on the Delete side, while cogent arguments for Keeping were overlooked and/or lumped together with some spurious arguments for Keeping. Also, suggestions to improve sourcing issues seemed to be overlooked.
Also, though I have not been involved in many AfD disputes, the entire process used here seems odd. A "test case" was done at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of AT&T U-verse channels. That AfD, dealing with a single article, drew an audience of editors with about 25 !votes, about 19 Deletes and 6 Keeps (no comment on relative strength of arguments). It was closed in 8 days. The AfD subject to this review, the second "test case", drew about 26 !votes, about 15 Deletes and 11 Keeps, more of a balance -- at that point, the 8 day mark, this AfD was relisted, and was open for 15 days.
One AfD instruction seems to hold that only essentially identical articles may be bundled, while another instruction simultaneously holds that similar articles may be. During the second AfD, the nominator stated that s/he wished to AfD all similar articles, but that "as soon as you get past a certain number of related articles, you will get people trying to discredit the entire bundled nom due to the size issue. Handling smaller batches allow judgement if exceptional articles should be kept." Thus, similar AfDs were broken into smaller bits. I have no reason to doubt the nominator's intent, but an easily-anticipated consequence of this bundling style might be to limit the audience for each AfD, since most editors don't seem to look at Village Pump or Project pages, and only seem to get "up in arms" if they notice that one of "their" articles is in danger of deletion.
In spite of the comments earlier about allowing judgment for exceptional articles, the NOTDIR argument is cited (by most nominators and Delete !voters) for each bundle in total and additionally cited as justification is that the similar AfDs were successful. So much for evaluating each article on its own merits. Chaswmsday (talk) 15:54, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just as a clarifying comment and not an endorse/overtune, I had originally AFD'd the AT&T list, and stated in that that pretty much all articles in Category:Lists_of_television_channels_by_company had similar problems and ergo this was a test case for further deletion. I then proceeded to start a small batch based on a region, just in case there were parts of these articles worth keeping to give time for arguments to be made and content to be kept. (Unless there's crystal-clear consensus, a 100-article multi-AFD is almost always knocked down on basis of size and complexity, and not necessarily on actual merit for deletion). However, I will point out that VPP had been notified as well as the WP TV project, so it is not isolating the deletions to limit audience size as Chaswmsday suggests.
Note that I did not expect that the AFDs on the New York state or UK Terrestial channels to ever be considered (they are not in the above category). The NOTDIR approach specifically was focused on the business of one carrier, and ergo only to be applied to the carrier lists. --MASEM (t) 16:17, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, no one has said it is "exactly" an EPG. The delete !votes generally say these fail WP:NOTDIR, which like the rest of NOT is not fully inclusive of what WP is NOT. You've mentioned your problem with the vagueness of NOTDIR, but that's not a problem, that's design by purpose. --MASEM (t) 16:52, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to no consensus There was no consensus here. You don't automatically delete articles because something you believe similar got deleted. That's not how it works. DreamFocus17:56, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't just similar, it was the exact same format and style, just with one provider's offering swapped in for the other. --MASEM (t) 18:00, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to no consensus Agree with User:Dream Focus and User:Chaswmsday. The topic was closed with no consensus and then swiftly reopened because it would seem some didn't like that result. No consensus was ever achieved. The arguments for deletion mostly revolved around WP:NOTDIR, without ever stating what exactly that meant or how the page 'failed it,' excepting statements along the lines that 'It obviously fits.' Stating unceasingly that something is an electronic programming guide does not make it so. Making arguments along the lines of 'We won the other AfD, so we'll win this one, too' are also unhelpful and create the impression of a zero-sum contest. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 18:11, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Just to clarify your first statement (if I'm reading it correctly), the AfD was in fact erroneously closed as a keep at first, by a non-admin. This was a clearly inappropriate non-admin closure (the discussion was heavily contested by both sides and clearly controversial, thus making it inappropriate for non-admin closure), and that was why the decision was made to relist, not because "some didn't like that result." ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb00:30, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn. There was no consensus on this one. We make too many mistakes to go by the precedent of merely a single AfD or even a group of similar articles at the same time. It is at this point equally likely the other ones were the ones in error. Long term consistent decisions at AfD do establish a rough precedent, but even those based on consistency over multiple AfDs for multiple years are subject to challenge. DGG ( talk ) 18:31, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse Arguments for keep were mainly "Its useful" and "I like it", which are prima facie invalid as a standalone rationale. There was a very weak but somewhat valid argument proposed by a few keepers that it aids in organization of the encyclopedia, though little rationale was offered to explain how this is the case. The arguments that the articles would inevitably fall out of date were rebutted by the claim that they are well kept, but those rebuttals miss the point that Wikipedia articles should not be ephemeral in nature, they should be converging toward enduring coverage of a topic. This sort of ephemeral material being inappropriate for an encyclopedia is exactly the reason we have many of the things we have in WP:NOT, which is a core policy. We are an encyclopedia, not a periodical, and our coverage should be of enduring things. I endorse the closure as a reasonable application of policy and proper discount of weak or invalid rationales. Gigs (talk) 20:10, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Another case where the local consensus was at odds with the wider community consensus. What the wider community believes is summed up in WP:NOTDIR, and the view that was expressed most succinctly by Postdlf during the discussion we're considering. The local consensus was divided, and although a correct weighting of the !votes after subtracting those that should clearly be disregarded does lean towards "delete", it was probably still within the "no consensus" range. The question for this DRV is whether it should be the local consensus or the wider community view that prevails. Reasonable people might disagree about that. I'm going to endorse on the basis that the close was within Drmies' discretion. I do think that in the circumstances and considering Drmies was closing against the apparent consensus, a much fuller and more complete closing rationale would have been helpful.—S MarshallT/C 20:22, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - I see no point on evaluating arguments other than to win over. The whole list is too clunky, too inconvenient, and too time-consuming to edit, and I'm glad that it is gone. Now this nominator thinks these pages still have historical potential. Undeleting the whole page and changing decision to "no consensus" would lead to greater disaster than before. --George Ho (talk) 22:17, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse as plainly within reviewing admin's discretion. I agree with previous suggestion that a longer rationale would have been helpful, given the length of the discussion, but that's neither here nor there. Striking previous as I see that the closing admin did indeed supply a rationale at the AfD's talk page. This was a very heavily contested discussion but I think the result is hardly the type of clear miscarriage of Wiki-justice that would justify a DRV overturn. Full disclosure: I voted !delete in this discussion so perhaps my POV is biased and should be disregarded. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb00:30, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse, regardless of the numbers, the "keep" votes were not soundly based on policy or guidelines. Notwithstanding straw man mischaracterizations above, the "delete" votes were substantial, and did not merely rely upon the mere fact of the prior AFD but instead upon it having an identical deletion rationale, because these lists were subject to the exact same problem: they were a directory of the cable/satellite TV services provided by individual companies, certainly a reasonable application of WP:NOTDIR. It is unfortunate that a couple editors have so poorly understood that result so as to attempt the deletion of all channel/station lists, but as is clear from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of television stations in New York we don't need to keep the cable provider lists as a bulwark (re: "give an inch" comment above) to ensure that the valid channel lists are safely kept. postdlf (talk) 13:58, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. While I do have a problem with some other editors taking this and the Uverse AFD as a means to nominate articles like the list of New York stations for deletion, that's not a reason to invalidate this one, only to provide clarity on those other AFDs that the same reasoning shouldn't be used. (I specifically was focused on channel lists of specific providers, recognizing that national/state-level media is more an encyclopedic topic than provider channel listings). --MASEM (t) 16:24, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - AfDs are not votes, and if a pile of keeps are 100% without merit, then they ar treated as if they do not exist. Good, bold call for a change. Tarc (talk) 17:29, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - While it would have been incredibly useful for the closing admin to give a bit more of an explanation for why he felt the consensus was being made, and I think this deletion review is well justified in the context that this was a contentious deletion discussion that was repeatedly relisted due to a lack of consensus, I think the ultimate decision based upon the general discussion was legitimate. It would have been better had some sort of compromise been offered and genuine consensus really was never achieved in the discussion... instead it still broke down into two camps of one trying to delete and the other trying to keep the article. I am endorsing so far as I think the arguments in favor of deletion really did win the day in a battle of arguments. --Robert Horning (talk) 14:37, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm not sure if, as "nominator", I'm allowed to !vote here. And while I'm not keen on re-litigating the original AfD discussion, I do find that the points I mentioned at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/List of DirecTV channels (2nd nomination) (such as encylopedic purpose and non-provider sourcing) have gone largely unaddressed here -- to wit, the main focus has been on the more spurious (almost straw-man) Keep rationales. On the Delete side, NOTDIR has been parroted ad nauseum -- without really defining what that instruction means.
No, @Masem, contrary to your statement, it has been said that these articles are EPGs. From @Wikipedical's nomination in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/3rd bundle of channel lineups: "they all fail WP:NOTDIR, as they are clearly electronic program guides..."
As for @Wikipedical, I didn't appreciate the tone of your comment, "citing the List of channels on RCS&RDS AfD as "no consensus" is hilarious as one person voted (!!)" I didn't reference those articles as to the quality or lack thereof, of their AfDs, just to the AfD doctrine that articles recently nominated should enjoy a "reasonable" cooling-off period before they're re-nominated.
How would one ever counter a NOTDIR policy claim, as this very "policy" is nebulous and is defined mainly by how many !voters can repeat it.
And I have found that objections to the allegedly invalid OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument are often used as cover for disingenuously maintaining or manufacturing distinctions between ILIKEIT articles and IDONTLIKEIT articles. --Chaswmsday (talk) 20:21, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Chas. I would say that like an electronic program guide, these channel listings are guides and are frequently updated to maintain current listings, which is not the purpose of an encyclopedia article. While they may not be listing programs, it is close enough to label them as directories and failing the spirit of WP:NOTDIR. I would also ask you to assume good faith. The OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments do not hold up against Wikipedia policy, not because I don't like or dislike these articles. I don't think it is constructive to question other editors' motives rather than actions. Thanks. -- Wikipedical (talk) 20:35, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Comment about the background to this nomination: There have been numerous attempts over the course of several years to get articles on this subject, under various titles such as Sin (rapper), Filip Filipi, Filip Filipi (Rapper), Sin Sizzerb, Sin (musician). There have also been several articles on closely related articles, such as Sizzerb Inc, Big Mike, Nu Jerzey Devil & Watsman Present: Sizzerb Mixtape Vol. 2 - Sin's City and others. There have been to my knowledge at least three AfD's, all of which closed as "delete". Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sin (rapper), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sin Sizzerb, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sin (musician). There have been numerous re-creations of the article under various titles, and numerous re-deletions under speedy deletion criterion G4 (recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion). The present deletion review is the latest in a long string of attempt to get this article kept by one means or another. The person who created this deletion review entry did not inform any of the administrators involved in any of the AfD closures or other deletions. The deletion of the version of the article named in this review was a G4 deletion by me.
Comment about the claim of notability, and its relation ship to the deletions: The nomination appears to rest its claim of notability on the fact of the subject having set up a charity which raised a lot of money. Since this fact was not mentioned in any version I have seen of the deleted article, it cannot be directly related to any of the deletions. Whether or not there is enough coverage of this one event to provide enough evidence of notability to justify a new article on the subject is another question. JamesBWatson (talk) 12:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review I decided to restore this particular one, among the others mentioned, since it is the one being appealed, so non admins can see what we are talking about. DGG ( talk ) 18:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion and closure based on the three AfD discussions above, solid consensus closures. Since article recreation has proven to be a problem, I suggest salting all of the article names mentioned here. Stuartyeates (talk) 08:23, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Romnesia – Endorse The misconception of the nomination and many of the votes here is that the bolded part of a vote is all that counts but in fact censensus requires us to balance arguments against policy prohibits vote counting. Many of the overturn votes are opinion based without any understanding of policy and as such the arguments to endorse have not been refuted by a solid policy based argument. – SpartazHumbug!15:59, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
If one looks at the actual discussion, there is clearly no consensus. The votes are evenly divided between keep and delete votes. Moreover, the closing admin even acknowledges that the strength of each argument is similar. The argument to redirect to United States presidential election, 2012 is very questionable. There are very few votes to redirect. The closing admin uses the argument of that ObamaCare is redirected to the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. The logic of that redirect seems simple to me. ObamaCare is a common word (now used by supporters, opponents, and is in the general vernacular) for the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. If a person wants to find information concerning the use of Romnesia, does one simply think that United States presidential election, 2012 is the same topic? There is a clear and logical consensus that synonyms of the same subject should redirect to one page. THat makes it simple for the reader. However, this isn't the case here. For those reasons, I which to challenge this AfD result. Casprings (talk) 02:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
. Note I understand that a non-notable topic will be redirected to a subject that covers it in a boarder context. That is not the case here, as the closing admin clearly states that the topic is WP:N.
Support close by Splash. The first flush of strongly worded (and apparently partisan) keep and delete votes gave way to a clear preference for merge / redirect as tempers cooled. There was considerable diversity as to where it should be redirected to, but a neutral page was picked and seems sane. As for whether ObamaCare is a common word, I don't recall hearing it outside of this AfD debate, YMMV. Stuartyeates (talk) 02:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The review argument seems to be that since all redirects are synonyms, the close was erroneous. If so, this is a false premise, as Redirects are commonly used for non-notable topics that are covered in the encyclopedia in a broader topic. Unscintillating (talk) 06:22, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to no consensus - A discussion of forty people in which maybe three mention redirection (and for none of who does it really seem like they think that's a good idea) can't be closen as redirect without a super-compelling policy reason. There's no real compelling policy reason either way here - it's a simple content management question being blown out of proportion because of the election. Under any normal circumstances, most of the votes would be along the lines of "Who cares? AfD isn't here to nitpick how to present content." I suspect in three or six months, such questions will have more obvious answers (and the outside influences will be considerably lessened). In the interim, it needs to be accepted there's no consensus and one shouldn't try and force one where there isn't - how to best present recent events will always be tricky, and they become basically impossible when ballot box concerns (or however Americans vote?) outweight encyclopaedic concerns. WilyD09:22, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to no consensus - in his closing rationale, Administrator Splash writes the following sentence: "However, a number of the keepers do a fair job of defending against claims of neologism (mainly that Wikipedia is clearly not being used to create the phrase itself), and thus have a WP policy basis that has not been successfully challenged, in my judgement" (emphasis mine). Reading through the Afd, one cannot but realize that even though the article is about a Neologism, yet from the 29 editors who ivoted with delete/speedy delete/merge/redirect, none was able to explain how the article violates Wikipedia's Policy on Neologisms (WP:NEO). WP:AFD clearly stipulates that "...when making your case or responding to others, explain how the article meets/violates policy rather than merely stating that it meets/violates the policy". Since the article is about a neologism, it is expected that editors who are for or against the article should mention the content of WP:NEO and then explain how, in their opinion, the article either fulfills or fails WP:NEO. From the delete/speedy delete/merge/redirect ivoters, four mentioned WP:NEO, but all four editors did not explain how the article fails WP:NEO, and all four editors ignored the inclusion criteria found in WP:NEO. If, for instance, we have an Afd about a new band or a musician where notability is not clearly established, experienced editors know that the artist may be notable if s/he fulfills one of the 12 inclusion criteria found in WP:BAND. Unfortunately in the case of the neologism Romnesia, the inclusion critera were ignored in the Afd (exceptions confirm the rule). Since the closing administrator admits in the closing remark that "...a number of the keepers...have a WP policy basis that has not been successfully challenged", the Redirect should be overturned into No consensus. Amsaim (talk) 11:07, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support close Actually, eleven people suggested redirection, although there were differing suggestions as to the target should be. I was one of them, with the note that I preferred outright deletion. To do a head count (and yes, I realize that head counts are not a substitute for analyzing the rationales of each), there were 19 keeps and 17 deletes, plus eleven who suggested redirection as one of their choices. While I would have chosen a different target, I see nothing wrong with the close, especially noting the thoughtful analysis the closing admin used when looking at the rationales. Horologium(talk)11:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Counting, a total of five editors bring up the idea of redirection (six bring up merger, although at least one editor lies in both groups). Combing both is pure hookum, as redirect is fundamentally a delete vote (destroy the content, then create a redirect) and merge is fundamentally a keep vote (keep the content, but organise it differently). WilyD11:37, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, "delete and redirect" is different to merely "redirect" since the former is a stronger AfD outcome, implying that the content was so bad that it should not even remain in the history of a redirect. A simple redirect outcome is somewhere between "delete" and "merge", since the redirect target would probably at least have a nod to the existence of the term, but might not, whereas for a merge you'd expect to recognise parts of the merged article's content in the target. Splash - tk20:17, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
*Endorse close You might have guessed that it was the US silly-season again. One side coins a partisan neologism, it unsurprisingly is reported in the media, and certain Wikipedians insist it justifies a standalone article because of x-g-hits. Unfortunately, our processes don't deal well with type of stuff and in the circumstances the closer's assessment is perfectly reasonable (and he's British which give me more confidence). Look, can't we debate this again in a few months - by then we'll be able to assess if this becomes a major election meme (unlikely) or deserves a line somewhere under "2012 partisan spin". Right now, we're not going to get a sane debate let alone a sane response.--Scott Mac16:42, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support A good compromise close. When there is no consensus about whether to keep or delete and there is a reasonable intermediate proposed, it is open to an admin to do so instead of saying non-consensus, if there is sufficient explanation of why it is in fact a reasonable alternative, and there was. DGG ( talk ) 18:51, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A redirect could be to any number of targets, I chose one that was intended be Obama/Romney neutral, and actionable to avoid vagueness. DRV is not really the place to determine a redirect's target; an article talk page should be used for that.
Yup, there's been no actual deletion to review. This discussion probably belongs more on the article talk page than here. Trying to get a definite outcome in cases where there really is fundamentally no consensus across the encyclopaedia—as in this case—isn't usually very productive, unfortunately.—S MarshallT/C 20:27, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse Delete. Mention of the catch phrase would be perfectly appropriate at the Obama campaign article, but same editors that don't want it there, want a big separate article. Makes no sense. Either not Undue there or not notable here. At most, since it was introduced as a campaign strategy late, it will last another 10 days, hence no probability of continuing notability. --Anonymous209.6 (talk) 12:48, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to no consensus clearly notability is established in the article. The historical significance of the term 'Romnesia' is established. When the 2012 presidential election will be covered in the future 'Romnesia' will be mentioned and discussed. With coverage of the coining and usage of the term being equally covered on both sides of spectrum of the main parties it is evident that there should be an article from a neutral point of view that informs those coming to Wikipedia to learn about it. 85.170.164.197 (talk) 13:04, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist closing admin admits closing error with notable topic. Deletion discussion did not establish a consensus. Paum89 (talk) 04:59, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Errr, no. I don't know where you get that from, but I haven't written anything of the sort and, to avoid confusion, I do not admit a closing error. Any improved reasons, seeing as the page is not deleted? Splash - tk07:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Did you state that the topic was notable, met the WP:GNG, and was sourced to reliable sources? I read that you did. Did you state that the arguments for deletion were weak? Yes, in your first sentence. Did you state that the arguments for notability were strong? Yes. Was your decision out of proportion to the numerics? Yes. Was your decision out of proportion to the strength of the arguments? Yes. If you disagree, please explain why. Paum89 (talk) 15:51, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note that Paum89 reverted your redirect with an edit summary that echos exactly what he said above. I have restored the redirect and come here to weigh in. If this user is flat-out lying, and making controversial edits based on a lie, then that may need admin action to intervene. Tarc (talk) 14:44, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Question for Administrator Splash: According to my understanding of Wikipedia's Policies & Notability Guidelines, there are specific policies & guidelines for each individual subject by which editors can determine the notability of the subject and by which editors can determine if a subject deserves an article in Wikipedia. For example, there is WP:MUSICIAN for musicians & bands, WP:ORG for organizations & companies, WP:PEOPLE for living people, WP:BK for books, WP:NF for films, WP:MUSIC for music, WP:TITLE for article titles, and so on. Now, the only policy in Wikipedia on Neologisms is found in WP:NEO. WP:NEO is part of Wikipedia's Content Policy. A policy, as you know, is "...a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow...". You posted this message as a reply to my posting, saying: "I think further reliance on WP:NEO, by either keep or delete sides, is probably not useful in terms of this article". Please help me out here, because with this remark from you as an administrator I'm a bit confused about how Wikipedia's policies should be handled. Am I missing something here? Are you are saying that in order to determine if the neologism Romnesia should have an article in Wikipedia, then the only policy which Wikipedia has that directly addresses neologisms is "...not useful...", and therefore that policy should not be taken into consideration? If the answer to this question is yes, does this also apply to other topics in Wikipedia? If we as editors are to regard WP:NEO as not useful for a neologism article, shouldn't that policy be deleted so as to avoid further confusion? Please clarify this issue for me. Thank you. Amsaim (talk) 09:03, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the question. For the deletes, their attempt to claim authority from NEO had been stopped, in my judgement, by the keepers' argument that Wikipedia is not being used to promulgate the term, thus NEO is not useful to that side of the debate. For the keepers, relying on NEO to say that it should not have been deleted when it hasn't been is not useful, and NEO does not appear to have an opinion on redirects. Therefore, at this stage of proceedings, where we are at DRV, NEO does not seem to be further useful. NEO may be useful in deciding what sort of mention to make in whatever article the redirect points to, though. Such a discussion belongs on some suitable talk page. On your broader question regarding other topics and other policies, no all-encompasing answer can be possible, since each page is carefully treated according to its own circumstances. Splash - tk18:04, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - The nom and the bulk of the overturns are predictable "I don't like it" claptrap. There is no major error or misjudgement in the closer's decision. You don't get to overturn because of simple disagreement. Tarc (talk) 14:44, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Question since when did Articles for Deletion become Articles for Redirection? Either an article merits remaining in place or else it is deleted. Why is this article being redirected as a result of an AfD? 85.170.164.197 (talk) 19:42, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If one looks as Reasons for deletion not one of the reasons enumerated suits a decision for deletion of this article (or redirection for that matter). Again, there was zero consensus in the AfD for deletion or redirection. 85.170.164.197 (talk) 19:53, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to non-consensus. Valid arguments were made on both sides but i don't see that the delete position was overwhelming or compelling. Insomesia (talk) 03:30, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to non-consensus No compelling reason with majority to delete, arguments were presented for several options and keep seems feels reasonable. Cluetrainwoowoo (talk) 09:26, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. Excellent close. Really, top stuff. A thorough and correct reading of the discussion, and a sensible exercise of discretion to reflect it. If "Romnesia" gets lasting coverage, then the consensus would no longer apply and an article may be warranted. --Mkativerata (talk) 09:43, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to keep Sourcing clearly rises to meeting WP:N. Arguments for deletion are pretty much "it's a short-lived meme" which doesn't rise to a policy-based argument (WP:EVENT doesn't apply, WP:NNN was found by the closer not to apply, while WP:NTEMP does). The analogy to Obamacare is on the surface somewhat compelling, but it is a false analogy as there is a very clear redirect target that literally discusses the same thing that phrase refers to (and WP:OTHERSTUFF may apply in any case). I'm also seeing 32 uses of the phrase in Google news in the last 24 hours and have no doubt at all this phrase will see analysis post-election in reliable sources (and if Romney wins it will see continued use in response to his actions). So we have pretty massive sustained coverage and no reason to believe it will stop (at 32 articles per day it could drop a LOT and still see use once/week a year from now). I agree the keep arguments weren't great (at least one was a personal attack), but when a topic clearly meets WP:N there just isn't much a keep voter can do. Hobit (talk) 13:38, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I do applaud the closer for a clear and well-written close. I disagree with it pretty strongly, but it is exactly what a good close of a difficult topic should look like. Hobit (talk) 13:42, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse The closing admin does not state the topic is notable in the close (not sure where Casprings got that from), and has not advanced any argument of their own (i.e no supervote). The careful weighing up of the different arguments according to policy and guidelines is what we want admins to do. Good close. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:42, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse close per DGG and the very reasonable rationale that Splash attached to his decision. Splash is entirely correct that there was no consensus for deletion, and his evaluation of the issues at hand to make an editorial decision to redirect were based on sound policy and common sense. Sjakkalle(Check!)13:21, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse There really ought to be a standing WP:NOTNEWS rule that these campaign outbursts don't get articles until a year or two after the election, but in any case the decision to point this back into the election article is a perfectly reasonable resolution. Mangoe (talk) 18:02, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Endorse There was strong consensus to keep, and the basic deletion reason, "Not actually happened" , was not a reason for deletion--if a political or military proposal is substantially discussed in RSs, it meets the standard. I'd be glad to reclose on that basis as an admin. DGG ( talk ) 18:56, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I want to contest the delition of Ernst-Wiggo Sandbakk. This Norwegian drummer is really one of the notable drummers in Norway. He has played a series conserts, festival performances and records, with musicians like Thorgeir Stubø, Frode Alnæs, Palle Mikkelborg, Art van Damme, Asmund Bjørken, Terje Bjørklund, Bjørn Alterhaug, Nils Petter Molvær, Knut Riisnæs, John Pål Inderberg, Henning Sommerro and Hans Rotmo.[1][2] These references are serious sources of Information: Norsk Jazzarkiv/Juli 2005, wich is based on information at The Norwegian Jazz Forum and University profile at NTNU. Actually I thought the deletion propsal was a joke and forgot about it. "Mentoz86" have been bullying me at no:wiki, and I don't want to dicuss or accsept him deleting my work! Best wishes Knuand (talk) 12:54, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn Sandbakk was/is a member of a notable band, he has collaborated with multiple notable Norwegian jazz personalities as a sideman, and is known as a jazz popularizer in Norway (director of the Trondheim Jazz Festival). The article is in good shape, well referenced. It is possible to find out more about him: [4], [5] for example. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 09:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - DRV is not AfD round two, and the discussion and the closure was after the book. Even though I failed to deliever a message to the OP about taking this article to AfD, he commented on the AfD and later edited the article a couple of times during the three weeks the discussion was open, so he had plenty of time to participate in the deletion discussion. I think the OP should learn to respect the outcome of AfD in general, instead of recreating the article and opening a DRV when he disagree with consensus, just like he did the last time one of "his" articles was deleted. As a sidenote: When my name is mentioned specifically in an discussion like this, I feel that I should have a message on my talk-page (just like the closing admin), but the OP failed to notify any of us. That I have been "bullying" or "campaigning" against Knuand has previously been discussed at ANI. Mentoz86 (talk) 10:47, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Knuand, @User:Mentoz86: We should focus on debating the subject and its notability, not individual editors. Please, put your personal disagreements aside and focus on the subject. I think this DRV is justified, as the initial AfD had two !votes to 'delete' (User:Mentoz86 (nominator) and User:Batard0) + two users contesting deletion (User:Bondegezou and User:Knuand, who did it rather indirectly and now continues here). Please, let others comment on this. Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 11:21, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this DRV is justified, but I disagree that we should debate the subject and its notability, as that should be discussed in an AfD, while DRV is for discussing if anything was done wrong with the AfD and the closure. Mentoz86 (talk) 12:42, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - DRV is not AfD round two. None of the specific concerns of the delete !voters was addressed (in particular the concern no"reliable sources independent of subject" was never countered) giving them considerable weight. Stuartyeates (talk) 17:13, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse own close (I would note for the record that I was not afforded a chance to respond to questions on my talk page before this was brought here.) It was not my job to form my own opinion but rather to evaluate the arguments for keeping and deleting. If the person challenging that outcome did not wish to see the article deleted, they should have at least said so at the AFD. Thay participated in the form of asking why the person was not notable but offered no argument to keep the article. The only comment directed toward keeping the article was based on the fact that he has an article on another project, which is not a valid argument, and that he was a member of a notable band, which is not in and of itself sufficient. If there were other arguments that could have been made AFD was the time and place to make them, not here. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:14, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment At the moment the article is not deleted, because a re-creation at G4 was declined, presumably on the grounds that this version has additional information that might reasonably show notability. I could restore the deleted version, but it seems more reasonable to discuss what should be done on the basis of the present version, which is a little fuller in several respects. DGG ( talk ) 19:03, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, what? Ok, I had assumed it had been restored for discussion here, as is normal. If it was recreated from scratch and improved then why are we even having this discussion at all? The users wishing to challenge the AFd close need to decide what it is they want. Do they want the previous version restored based on the idea that the AFD was improperly closed, or do they wish to see the new and apparently improved version retained? Beeblebrox (talk) 20:15, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This is a pointless discussion. It is a review of an article that has been deleted, and no one wants it restored. There is a newer article that one editor wants to bring to DRV, but because of the confounding DRV nomination, this discussion is obfuscated, both on the closing admins talk page and here in the current DRV discussion. There is a simple path forward, close this DRV with no prejudice to a speedy AfD nomination of the new article. One of two things will happen, either someone wants to nominate it and will do so, or no one wants to nominate it. Add that the DRV nominator should be reminded in the closing that Wikipedia is a community effort. Unscintillating (talk) 00:42, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
The article could indeed have become relevant. The problem is that this article is, perhaps, only a stub. Then a restoration would not be worthwhile. Would be a sysop so kind to send Lukas or me the deleted article via E-Mail? Besides the article is protected against creation. Regards, Vogone (talk) 00:41, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Deleted this has been deleted manymanytimes already because no sources have been provided, no new sources have been provided yet again, so the notability remains unchanged. Please create a properly sourced draft first.--JacktheHarry (talk) 15:47, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Deleted for now. If a well sourced user-space draft can be presented as a proper version of the article, then it'll have a chance. Until then, it should stay deleted in it's many, many unsourced forms. - TexasAndroid (talk) 14:27, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I made similar claims with another article but this is not significant enough to keep the article. This article lacks reliable 3rd party sources. I don't see sufficent sources such as Huffington Post, Entertainment Weekly, etc. talking about unreleased material. This article is full of ASCAP/BMI entries. --TV (talk) 19:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with you. However, per Wikipedia, this article is not acceptable. To sum it up, there needs to be various independent articles talking about Norwood's unreleased discography as a set. --TV (talk) 21:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The last nomination was closed as no consensus over a year ago. This discussion needs to be at AFD so why don't you just renominate the article and have that discussion. DRV hardly ever overturns a NC close and certainly won't do so for an article that is clearly ripe for relisting anyway. Just do it. SpartazHumbug!05:12, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Category:Wikipedians who are not a Wikipedian – Overturn Often we get confused by the criteria of WP:CSD but there is quite more policy on that page that is ignored. Two lines that comes to mind are "Speedy deletion is intended to reduce the time spent on deletion discussions for pages or media with no practical chance of surviving discussion.[1] Administrators should take care not to speedy delete pages or media except in the most obvious cases." WP:CSD is for uncontroversial deletions. It's meant to save the community time in a discussion that would obviously lead to delete. In a controversial case like this where discussion is needed, WP:CSD should be steered well clear of. While I personally would like to see this category destroyed, the consensus I see developed below was that IAR was improperly applied, although very well intentioned (and no fault of the admin because using WP:IAR is tricky). There remains a concern about WP:BLP and WP:NPA concerns, as JClemens is still very much alive and targeted, however there is considerable argument that this falls under criticism rather than a personal attack. I don't particularly buy into that, it leads to justification of attack pages as allowable as long as someone feels it's justified, but my opinion isn't what counts in a close; now is it? However, arguments below make a distinction on the category's name. Tarc in particularly pointed out that were this category given a less tactful title, it would be deleted. He's right, and it nullifies his own point. All in all, this is a big WP:POINT and WP:BATTLEGROUND, but CSD is not the way to handle that. I also want to point out that many of the folks suggesting to 'overturn' are on that side simple for the principal of the matter concerning the process by which this was handled and not because they support the category. I strongly suggest this be returned to WP:CfD and the process followed. I think everyone needs to take a chill pill and stick to the policy arguments instead of who is siding where. If we can do that, we can get a real consensus. When we go after each other personally, it makes a closing admin question why people are saying and choosing the positions they are choosing. I commend those who did stick to the policies in this discussion and where able to compartmentalize their feelings and address their professional opinion about the process separate from their personal opinion about Malleus and JClemens. Thanks. – v/r - TP13:10, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
speedily deleted under WP:CSD G10 "attack/disparage" (with a bit of WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND thrown in) I've no involvement in the current Malleus Fatuorum/Arbcom dispute. I can see many good people were outraged by stupid JClemens "not a Wikipedian" remark. But creating categories to attack an editor for a remark he made isn't how we do things. We AREWikipedians that means we discuss things together, and we use proper mature methods to do this. We don't tar and feather people (and I think that exactly the reason people rightly objected to JClemens' remark). We don't engage in puerile [[WP:BATTLEGROUND|battle ground tactics]] - we don't monumentalise the folly of others. Where would it end? Do we end up with "Category:Wikipedians who are fuckers" in protest at things Malleus has said? Please, step back and cool down everyone. When we have a dispute, and real Wikipedians try to use discussion and dispute resolution methods to, well, like "resolve" the dispute, not stunts and protests to ramp it up. Take this to deletion review if you must, but ask yourself how you are helping Wikipedia. Your valid point/protest has now been made."
The tagline to the category at the time of deletion was "In protest, referencing a comment by an ArbCom member"
The "discussion" was simply part of the same battleground, and not based on policy. Anyway, if DRV thinks I've done the wrong thing, then I give up.--Scott Mac09:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn. The Speedy Deletion was out-of-process for two reasons:
The category had already been nominated for CSD:G10 and declined by User:LadyofShalott before it was taken to CfD.
Speedy deletion is only for obviously uncontroversial cases, and this is clearly not one of them.
Do we now do "technically incorrect" > honorable and useful? Anyway, I don't think it was technically incorrect. But if you think undeletion helps here, whatever. --Scott Mac09:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Boing, are you honestly arguing this _isn't_ an attack? Your argument here is about process (something I'm a huge fan of in fact), but not about the meat of the matter. Could you explain the purpose of the category if it's not just an attack page? Hobit (talk) 12:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If I was arguing that it isn't an attack, I would have argued that it isn't an attack - but as I didn't, you should be able to work out for yourself that I'm not. My argument is that this was a "supervote" abuse of admin power against a clear majority of the !votes so far, in the midst of a furore over perceived abuse of power - and that was pretty much guaranteed to cause a shitstorm. The point is that it is not blatantly and uncontroversially an attack and therefore is not subject to CSD:G10, and the community should not have its power to decide for itself taken away. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:08, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Again, it singled out one person's (widely disparaged - and rightly retracted) remarks, and served to invite people to participate in memorialising them. If that's not an attack, and attempt to disparage or a battleground tactic, can you explain what purpose it served? I keep pressing this, but get only evasion. I'm not trying to "badger" you, but the answer to this is at the root of it. If there's were a valid policy-based alternative purpose for this being articulated, then speedy deletion would indeed be inappropriate. But is there? What is yours? The reason you gave at the CFD "*Keep. If the definition is good enough for a serving member of ArbCom, then it's fucking good enough for me" seemed to be further disparagement and not at all policy based. --Scott Mac13:22, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As I have pointed out several times, whether it is an attack is not the issue here - as it was clearly not uncontroversial, that is something that should be discussed and decided by the community on the CfD page, and by you personally with your speedy deletion. Your continuing to argue your personal opinion about the category is just reinforcing the point that you did not act as a disinterested admin, and I'm sorry that you don't seem to understand the limits of your powers as an admin. If you do not understand that point, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to try to explain it again. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you aren't willing to argue it's not an attack, you really shouldn't be using process to try to keep it around seems unwise (changed wording as it was much more confrontational than I'd meant). Much like a BLP violation, purely process-based arguments should be used very carefully with respect to things that are attacks. Thus my endorse. I don't mean to pick on you, I just know you are a really reasonable person so you're the best person to discuss this with IMO... I'll duck out of this discussion at this point and let you have the last word here if you want it. If you'd like to discuss further, feel free to do so on my talk page. Hobit (talk) 13:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hobit, I would be happy to discuss the category in the deletion discussion, but I was denied that opportunity by an incorrect admin action. That action should be reversed, and the discussion that was closed should be allowed to resume - and the consensus should be judged by an admin who is capable of doing so neutrally. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Honorable and useful" is not a valid Speedy Deletion reason. Further, your responses indicate you are not acting as a disinterested admin here, and are effectively supervoting. As I said, I believe your actions were honorable, just incorrect, and I really think you should stop badgering now and just leave DRV to do its job. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:58, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn - per the technically correct points made by Boing! (Also, in comment, I note that the cat was deleted on the grounds that it represented the actions of Wikipedians who are not "real Wikipedians", thus proving the usefulness and validity of the category in the first place.) Keristrasza (talk) 10:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ignore all rules, keep it deleted and just stop. Go back to working on the encyclopedia, instead of worrying about this category created so Wikipedia has another martyr that divides the community on a hot button issue. What is the point in it being re-created? Potential collaboration of spiteful editors? You also do realize categories still work whether they are blue or red, right? So, instead of being adults and moving past what Jclemens said (despite how wrong you may think it was), we are going to resort to petty name-calling, creating categories for the sole purpose of harping on his comments, have Wikipedia disrupted first through categories for deletion, and now deletion review, only to be brought back to CFD later? Just stop, let it die, for the sake of the time users are going to be wasting on this stupidity. Regards, — MoeEpsilon10:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it that everybody I try to talk to these days seems to argue against what I haven't said? Oh, wait a minute - could it be because my statement was irrefutably correct? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You implied that the category needed a description, which is the only difference between it being red and it being blue. My point is that everyone who has been sent the link to the category and everyone else who added themselves knows precisely what the category is about. Not only that, but the original "description" was that it was created "in protest." Does this need more explaining? Regards, — MoeEpsilon12:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The description could have been amended without deletion of the category. The CSD was overkill and an abuse of G10: it isn't as if the subject of the category was/is not being discussed elsewhere. I understand the rationale for using G10 but, well, it was just asking for trouble, wasn't it? Comment at CfD, by all means, but don't be heavy-handed when you are aware that there is a huge furore regarding the underlying issue. - Sitush (talk) 14:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's alright, Boing!. Like Sitush is saying, I think, if the description is amended so that it is not an attack on Jclemens on the category page, I have no problem with it personally. However the "in protest" language makes it very much an attack page on him, and it probably should be avoided at all costs, otherwise the precedent could be made to start other categories for whatever one Wikipedian says, which very much should be discouraged. Regards, — MoeEpsilon00:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn - Mostly per Boing, with a note that the "attack"-iness of the category has been disputed by numerous editors at the CFD. As Boing said, clearly not uncontroversial. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As a matter of correcting fact, the category description at the time of deletion was "In protest, referencing a comment by an ArbCom member". Assume what you will from that.--Scott Mac12:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Scott, I've already said that I don't mind the description being tweaked, and if that diff is left out, that's fine too: it will be a mysterious category only for the in-crowd. Drmies (talk) 18:15, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse It's a clear attack IMO, no if ands or buts. A very justified attack, but Scott is right here. I'm a huge fan of process, but let the ArbCom election be the process to address this, not sniping like this. Please folks, put down the stick. Hobit (talk) 12:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. Not often do I find myself in agreement with Scott MacDonald, but Hobit is exactly correct. With all due respect, Dennis Brown's ABF claim has zero basis in reality. As Scott pointed out, the description at the time of the deletion leaves no doubt that the (quite unwise) comment by Jclemens was the focus of this category. T. Canens (talk) 13:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: What I'm looking at here is the definition of G10 from WP:CSD#G10: "Pages that disparage, threaten, intimidate or harass their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose." I don't think this was justified under that criterion. It's the "and serve no other purpose" bit that bothers me: the first thing I thought of was that this category was pro-Malleus, not contra-Jclemens. This does have another purpose: to show solidarity with another editor. I'm not !voting myself, because there's been entirely too much drama over this already; I didn't feel strongly enough about it to put myself in the cat to begin with, and I don't feel strongly enough about it now to vote overturn. But it does appear to me that the G10 is out-of-process (not so important), and given that the discussion was tending towards keep before, the sudden shift in burden of proof from deleters to keepers unfairly changed the dynamic of the discussion (more important). Writ Keeper⚇♔ 13:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse After all, a lot of the people calling for an overturn have made it clear that they aren't Wikipedians (you determine if I was being serious or not). Why should their opinion mean anything, especially while they are all acting like children? For those of you who have threatened to leave, do you actually have the guts to follow through and do it or are going to stay here and continue with your battleground-mentality disruptiveness? AutomaticStrikeout13:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it does. Otherwise, how do you explain Floq blocking an arbitrator for a personal opinion or Drmies giving Malleus a barnstar for making personal attacks? AutomaticStrikeout13:53, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I deleted this as an attack. I'm not arguing that was a consensus position, however, the "debate" on the CFD did not contain one policy-based reason not to view it as an attack. Typical of it was Boing!'s ""*Keep. If the definition is good enough for a serving member of ArbCom, then it's fucking good enough for me". That's not a valid argument on Wikipedia - and we don't count votes as consensus. Anyway, I wasn't summing up consensus on that "debate", I was speedy deleting an attack/disparage, because we always delete attack/disparage items. Had there been a serious, non-battleground, argument for keeping it going on, then I would not have speedy deleted it. Can someone give me a use for this that doesn't relate to attack, disparage or battleground? I've been asking that without reply. Oh, btw, I'd have deleted an anti-Malleus cat just as quickly.--Scott Mac14:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of course there were policy-based reasons at the CfD when you deleted. Most obviously, this was that contributors self-categorise on numerous bases and thus there is precedent. You should have raised your points at that CfD, not used a hammer in an out-of-process manner, imo. - Sitush (talk) 14:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy deleting attack pages is not out of process. The question is, is it an attack or attempt to disparage - or does it serve some other purpose? No one, as yet, has suggested any other purpose.--Scott Mac14:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Solidarity and support of an editor, and sympathy for the perceived abuses inflicted on him, perhaps? This ain't a zero-sum game; supporting the one does not mean attacking the other. Writ Keeper⚇♔ 14:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I for one have never wanted to cuddle Malleus. But I remain disgusted at both the direction that "request for clarification" took, so speedily, AND JClemens obscene remark. Yes it was retracted, partially and grudgingly, and far too late. pablo14:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I don't think we're on the same planet. Peaceful?? There ought to be calm discussion about MF, and JClemens and arbcom - absolutely. No view gets censored. I don't even know what mine are. But what this was was a battleground tactic from people determined to ramp up the debate and the attendant vitriol, rather than to seek resolution of the disputes. The same was evidenced at the CFD. It may be, with hindsight, I should have ignored it (that's a valid point) but to say I caused drama when people were peacefully over there doing something undramatic and peaceful.....? Hey, ho. Oh, byw, how will restoring it serve to keep the peace either?--Scott Mac15:05, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Scott Mac, I didn't think a category would solve any dispute--I'm not that dumb (yet). But I certainly didn't seek all this, battleground and vitriol and all. Those who disagree with its very existence can always turne over the leef, and chese another tale. In much the same way that I'll simply disregard your use of the word "puerile". Drmies (talk) 18:58, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Well, congratulations to Rob & Scott - what was a fairly peaceful protest is now a fully-fledged draaahhhhma publicised at even more venues. pablo13:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist - I was the admin who initially declined the G10 nomination because I don't believe it is an attack. I think BoingSaidZebedee nailed it on the head that this was closed with an out-of-process supervote. The discussion should be allowed to continue. LadyofShalott14:06, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Scott, Sarcasm and name-calling don't advance conversations. Why do you keep saying that the JClemens-inspired category (or the new AGK-inspiration) increases heat or is a battlefield tactic? A show of solidarity (which strikes many as humorous) causes no threat to anything. Kiefer.Wolfowitz15:50, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Another administrator has deleted the page, again speedily, as an "attack page", despite that description being contested here. Again, another administrator out-voting the community, and misusing speedy deletion. Kiefer.Wolfowitz17:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But another Paladin, Buck, has nominated it for discussion. I've suggested that the community apply its decision in this category to that category. Buck disagrees, in triplicate. Kiefer.Wolfowitz23:37, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I'm not really concerned whether this category gets deleted, renamed, or not. Would like to point out, however, that this category meets a long-held sentiment of mine, à la Groucho's quip of not wishing to belong to a club that would have him as a member (proof of me having held this sentiment almost 4 years ago). Sure, I added myself to the category out of solidarity with Malleus Fatuorum, but that's not the only reason, and I might have added myself without knowing about the Arb-kerfluffle too. ---Sluzzelintalk15:53, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist Speedy deletions of material up for discussion at XfD is sometimes justified - usually as an instance of IAR. However, as explained above, those are the exception and not the rule. This closure has already produced more heat than light - and therefore shown that IAR was not appropriate here. Since the category was ineligible for speedy deletion apart from IAR, the decision becomes "overturn and relist." --PhilosopherLet us reason together.17:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestion: Perhaps instead of a category, a userbox could be used to identify editors who share a specific view about the Wikipedia community? I believe whimsically-named userboxes have a long tradition, and that there is generally a relaxed attitude towards their naming. isaacl (talk) 17:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedians are encouraged to be bold, but not with their administrative tools. This is why. I know Malleus is making a lot of Wikipedians tired at the moment (and, no doubt, vice versa); I know that boundaries are being tested, and so are the limits of the community's patience. But unilateral administrative actions don't reduce the drama level. Ever. This is a rule, henceforth to be known as Marshall's Law.—S MarshallT/C 18:35, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse Its an attack category - being used to continue to bring attention to, and so deride and demean the original commenter to a poorly made and considered my many/almost all to be attacking comment made by a living person and then retracted. IAR is a fine close for such a creation. I support Malleus and his content work here and I have commented negatively about Clemens in regards to his comment but the election is the place to deal with these things - Clemens is finish in authority here and will not stand as he knows he has no support anymore - so forget him - Malleus is under no threat of much at all in the Arbitration motion - creating this cat is too reactive, its basically over already. Youreallycan18:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Rob - your ill-thought-out deletion rationale and attendant badgering have done more to increase the drama levels here than any other user's action. Pipe down. pablo21:57, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn. I appreciate the kumbaya implied in Scott Mac's rationale, and I mean that sincerely. But I do not believe this deletion was done properly, for reasons outlined above, by Boing for starters and then by others. I see now that the description I added to the category, at least its phrasing, wasn't very helpful--but that entire Clarification Request wasn't very helpful, unless its purpose was to cause more division. If anything should be speedily dealt with, it's that. But the description can be edited; maybe it is already. Jclemens's comment was an immediate cause, of course, but the more important thing (for me, anyway) is that baiters can easily turn anything done by one editor into an ArbCom matter--and let other things slide. Jclemens wasn't the only one who said some pretty horrible things, and it's the general attitude, where an editor gets singled out and pounced upon, that creates the camps where in the end one camp can claim proper Wikipedianess and deny it to the other camp. And there really weren't camps to begin with. The category name is of course based on that now-retracted claim, so maybe the one shouldn't exist while the other is detracted--one could argue that, in a deletion discussion. (I don't agree, but that's something that someone could argue). This, this discussion and the conflicts that gave rise to it, will continue of course until the underlying matter is dealt with, and I for one still feel uneasy about even showing up here and doing various other household duties. Drmies (talk) 18:43, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but if (in reference to Malleus Fatorum's jibe) I created Category:Wikipedians who are fucking cunts and then argued it was really about supporting people who felt demeaned and insulted by vested contributors who (they felt) were allowed to ignore civility with impunity because of their prolific contributions, shouldn't it be speedily deleted as trolling (at least)? Or would that be acceptable? (PS not going to do it, before someone shouts POINT)--Scott Mac21:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
γνῶθι σαυτόν.
Nobody has raised any objection to your starting a category for yourself and for anybody who wants to identify as a fucking cunt, the way that some of us have identified with Malleus as net minuses or not a Wikipedian. The community should tolerate self-identification. Kiefer.Wolfowitz21:27, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting scenario. I'm not sure which CSD category would be appropriate, but it could well be considered eligible for G3, vandalism. However, should it have been nominated and the speedy deletion declined by an admin, and had it then been taken to CfD and a clear majority in favour of keeping it was developing, then no, it would not be acceptable for another admin to exercise a supervote and speedy delete it regardless. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The fact you think that's a question at all is the problem. I was offering Reductio ad absurdum, and you've failed to notice the absurdity. Had a created such a category it should be killed with a stick, and I should probably be blocked for trolling and disruption. Justifying breaches of a clear Wikipedian civility ethos by extraneous wikilawyring is precisely what Wikipedia is not about.--Scott Mac21:45, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously, I did not think that your starting a category "fucking cunts" was a question. Rather I thought your action entirely appropriate, for reasons that cannot be said on Wikipedia. Kiefer.Wolfowitz15:18, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if it was the obvious uncontroversial speedy that you suggest, then it would have been speedy deleted without being declined by an admin, wouldn't it? And it wouldn't have gone to CfD and wouldn't have generated a majority in favour of keeping it, would it? That's why your "fucking cunt" example is not a valid analogy for your own deletion of the "not a Wikipedian" category. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just an additional point - if what you see as a Reductio ad absurdum is challenged, it's not necessarily because your opponent did not understand the absurdity - it may just be because he thinks the reductio is false. (Honestly not trying to "pull rank" or anything, but I do have an MA in Philosophy) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Having thought about this, and I do understand Scott's reasoning, I am going to go for overturn. I think that the "attack" rationale is wrong. This was always far more a "I am Spartacus!" reaction to Arbcom's direction on this "request for clarification" (and by the way, is any clarification emerging? Didn't see any the last time I looked) than "Arbitrator X is a <insert descriptor of choice; adjectives optional>. pablo19:48, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to keep- the consensus was clearly that the category should be kept, and that it was not disruptive. This close was just plain wrong. FYI- I have no real involvement in the Malleus situation. ReykYO!21:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps support was the wrong word - but it is my opinion that by supporting this cat - (created as the user who created it said in solidarity with Malleus - then you allow for the other side - you are encouraging and allowing/accepting the opposite to be created - Youreallycan22:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK. In fact, I do support the right of people to create user categories expressing solidarity with, say, Jclemens - subject to proper policy-based discussion and not deleted by individual admin supervote. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Solidarity is what it was. If a whole bunch of editors get called "fucking cunts" (or "dishonest twats"), and one of them, disappointed that there's no block on such utterances, wants to create a user category with that term (to get back to your point, Scott), I couldn't care less. Seriously, they have my blessing, and I'll grant them the right to explain on the category page as well. Many user categorizations are POV: "Christian" doesn't mean the same thing for all Christians; "PhD" implies, to some, an educational arrogance; "Wikipedian sexworkers" apparently is a hot-button issue. The BLP argument brought up here by our resident BLP warrior, who has quite a history in divisiveness, does not apply: we're not dealing with living people, we're dealing with "editors"--and on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog anyway. Scott, I don't think you and I ever got into it over something, and I don't intend to change that. I'm sorry if you felt you had to take the course of action that led to all this; if all this blows over, and your deletion is endorsed (it doesn't look like it right now) I'll still buy you a beer. If your deletion gets overturned, well, I'll also still buy you a beer. But it might be a PBR. Drmies (talk) 22:57, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I very much respect Scott's effort here in a IAR sort of way, but I think it's also a very incorrect reading of consensus. I'd also mention that many people are upset by the situation; and sometimes these little things can have a cathartic effect in letting people voice their feelings. — ChedZILLA22:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I never doubted that for a second Boing - and I very much agree with everything you've said here. (I was going to mention "super-vote", but saw that you had already done so.) — ChedZILLA22:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relist Per Kiefer Wolfowitz. While I feel that this category should be deleted as a nonconstructive category violating WP:BATTLEGROUND, it does not meet the requirements for speedy deletion. Wikipedia:Ignore all rules states "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." I don't feel that rules preventing speedy deletion of this category prevent Wikipedia from being improved or maintained, so this does not fall under IAR. In addition, the large number of editors who wish for the category to be kept shows that invoking IAR would be far too contentious here. A full discussion should occur on this topic. RyanVesey
Overturn and relist While I appreciate Scott Mac's reasoning, I have always been an advocate that G10 is to be narrowly construed to include only things that no good-faith editor would believe are not an attack. Furthermore, I would be quite hypocritical if I supported a deletion of anything as a personal attack that was in response to (well, "throwing back in my face" might be a better description) something I said which wasn't intended as a personal attack in the first place. Jclemens (talk) 01:27, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Jclemens, by now I am less concerned with the particular remark as I am with the more general divisiveness; I can't really look at the actual discussion and its various motions. I (still) have very mixed feelings about the whole thing but I certainly don't want to single you out, although I realize very well that my 'definition' of the category suggests that. On the one hand, I'm sad at you (syntax coined by my daughter) for having said it, but on the other hand I don't want to denounce you as a person or an editor. As I suggested (on this page? on the original MfD?), the category description can be altered and it need not include the remark you retracted (would that we could unsay things). The solidarity I meant to express was with one particular editor, not against one other particular editor, though I understand that others read that differently. Drmies (talk) 14:52, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn - Speedy deletion had already been declined by another admin and only applies to "the most obvious cases"; I think the CfD discussion shows that this was already not an obvious speedy deletion candidate. Whether or not it should be deleted was being discussed at the appropriate venue, and consensus should determine the result, not an admin's opinion. - SudoGhost02:21, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse the category clearly had no purpose other than to attack an editor. That by attacking that editor it also expressed support for another editor makes no difference - if I wrote a disparaging article about a company it wouldn't be disqualified from G10 by the fact that it was expressing support for the company's competitors. Nor does the category serve any useful purpose. User categories exist "to aid in facilitating coordination and collaboration between users for the improvement and development of the encyclopedia", not to further political wikidrama. Hut 8.512:35, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion - the category is a joke and an attack. The "discussion" was a joke and a series of attacks. The administrator was right to delete it. Buck Winston (talk) 15:47, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I once encountered a fascinating thought at a previous deletion review: "Deletion review is not AfD2". The points many of you are making would be perfectly reasonable -- if only we were having an AfD discussion. We're not -- because it was closed via an improper CSD by an admin who took it upon himself to ignore the discussion at the AfD that was underway. We are here to review that decision in light of the policy that governs the deletion process. Opinions about the desirability of the category are then quite beside the point. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:59, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - Wiki-retardation at its finest here. Using categorization to disparage others should not be encouraged. As for the vote tally, who gives a fuck? That such a thing wound up with more keeps than deletes is only indicative that sometimes mob rule needs to be overruled by saner voices. Tarc (talk) 17:32, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your opinion on this is without value. If you have a beef with someone, you don't get to make a wiki-category to trumpet that beef to the world. We're here to simply review the close though, and if a closer took action to get rid of the miserable piece of shit of a category, then he should be barnstar'ed. Tarc (talk) 20:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tarc, My opinion is worth more than yours, because of my superior intellect, education, character, experience, and contributions. Notice that nobody has endorsed anything you've written. Kiefer.Wolfowitz21:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse per Scott's closing comments, WP:POINT and WP:BATTLE. Not to mention that the argument that the CFD was trending to keep is based exclusively on the vote count, which is not how we weigh these things. Virtually none of the keep votes actually presented a policy-based rationale. Given that, and given this category is very obviously intended to flame another editor for a comment - poor as it was - means this should leave little choice other than delete for anyone considering this in a rational, dispassionate matter. This category does not aid the building of this project. Resolute20:07, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
in the current climate I am definitely not a Wikipedian. A Wikipedian apparently is someone focused on his or her particular ideas of what is civil, pretty much to the exclusion of anything else. I'm all for basic courtesy, but these self-styled "Wikipedians" often push obnoxious civility POVs, and are themselves amongst the most discourteous members of the user community. I wish to distance myself from this group so I can be justified in returning to content building (which I have stopped). A category like this enables me to do that. As such, it is most certainly an aid to building the encyclopaedia and should not be deleted. The pointy behaviour and battle mentality evident here is coming from people who want this category suppressed. --Epipelagic (talk) 21:02, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
One does not need to be a member of a juvenile catetory designed to enshrine a dumb comment by another editor to distance themselves from that dumb comment. As such, I reject your notion that this category aids building the encyclopedia in this manner. However, I do respect that you at least tried to craft a rationale, which is more than can be said for most of the keep !votes in that CFD. Resolute21:52, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reading through this back and forth, it sounds like a CfD disucssion, not a rationale to endorse a deletion through an admin's supervoting. If you think it should be deleted, there's an appropriate venue for that. You should also read WP:NOTPOINTY, you're rationale doesn't seem to apply here, and is a deletion argument, not an endorsement argument. - SudoGhost22:01, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely. People seem to be forgetting that "making a point" is not the same thing as "disrupting Wikipedia to make a point". There has to be actual disruption, which there isn't in this case. ReykYO!22:25, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think it strains credulity to suggest that creating a category that flames another editor for a controversial statement could not be expected to add more drama to an already intense dramafest. And while I do add some CFDesque commentary, the bulk of my comment is to endorse the closing admin's G10 deletion while also highlighting that the "there were more keep !votes" argument carries little weight given how few of them were based in policy. Resolute01:34, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
...and that G10 deletion was already shown to be invalid. WP:CSD ":Administrators should take care not to speedy delete pages or media except in the most obvious cases." Not only did the CfD discussion highlight that this was not the case, a speedy deletion was already declined by another administrator. "As such, I reject your notion" that G10 was a valid action, because it most certainly was not. It would carry more weight for you to point out "how few of them were based in policy" if only your own rationale was supported by the things you linked. That however is not the case. - SudoGhost01:51, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse as correct application of WP:IAR & WP:ROUGE. If you dislike Jclemens vote him out of office (assuming he even runs again.) This immortalization of a gaffe is just battleground. Tijfo098 (talk) 20:16, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and keep: Seems to be a harmless enough category in which many people wish to be included. If it's a cause of embarrassment to certain arbs and admins, then it can serve them as a useful reminder that Wikipedia is inclusive not exclusive. Arbs and admins are subject to the will of the editors rather than here for the megalomaniacal ego trip on which so many seem to be on; of which speedy deleting this was a prime example. However, I shall not be joining because I am a Wikipedian and no incompetent, self righteous, small minded Arb will ever be permitted to take that away from me. Giano (talk) 21:35, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse per POINT. This is why we say !vote — there were lots of keeps, but few were based on policy. I thought the original comment repellent and look forward to not voting for JClemens (and maybe voting for some of those who are exercised on this issue). But this is pure battlefield. Kanguole23:25, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturnthe speedy Relist, discuss alleged "attack" aspects, and reclose. Bad G10 call. Had previously been declined. Speedy deletion should never be used to short circuit a discussion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:04, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn for three reasons. First, it was technically an abuse of policy, as several have pointed out above. Secondly, the discussion seemed to be trending to keep; IAR does not trump CONSENSUS, except in cases like clearcut BLP, which this was not; leading into thirdly, legitimate criticism of the horrible and abusive actions of people in power should not be stifled. This gives the appearance of censorship, which is unfortunate (though I am sure it was well-intentioned). --John (talk) 17:54, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You did raise a point I was wondering about. I'd claim that purely attack pages and BLPs are on a similar level and IAR to keep BLP violations are clear personal attacks out is within bounds (and on that basis I endorsed the deletion). A number of level-headed (and uninvolved from what I know) folks seem to think otherwise. My basis for putting them on the same plane is that both address personal attacks against a living person. Clearly you disagree and I'd like to hear why. Or put differently, if you felt that there was a clear BLP violation, I assume you'd remove that violation until the issue was resolved (at the least). How is this different? Are personal attacks (in category space of all places) not as important as a BLP violation to deal with rapidly? Or do you just not feel this one is clear-cut enough? Thanks! Hobit (talk) 18:24, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My explanation is that the personal attack "not a Wikipedian" (like "a net negative") was so stupid that nobody joining the category takes it seriously.Imagine a category like "Wikipedians whose mothers wore Army boots" or "Wikipedians who are boogers". People join for solidarity, and it releases some steam, in a harmless way, well away from the article space. Kiefer.Wolfowitz19:46, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion (and I think that of the majority of reasoned arguments here), the need for legitimate dissent against abuses of power outweighs any modest BLP concerns. User:Jclemens made an extremely egregious personal attack, from a privileged and protected position, on one of our community, which he has not fully withdrawn or apologised for. He remains in his position, from where he can continue to damage and undermine the community. Those of us who are withdrawing our participation in the project should have the right to show our protest in this way. How does it benefit the encyclopaedia? I would have thought it obvious that allowing proportionate dissent is a necessity for any community. --John (talk) 22:42, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well said. I also think there's a difference between criticizing someone's words and actions, and personally attacking them. Many people seem to miss that difference. ReykYO!22:47, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, "well said" my ass. I've had my share of beefs with Clemens over the years over his rabid ARS inclusionism. But this is just pathetic, you all come across as a bunch of wannabe Che Guevaras, complete with tacky little berets and the self-delusion that you can march into a jungle and hold a revolution. Build a bridge and get over it. Seriously. Tarc (talk) 23:34, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they probably begin by calling “charismatic.”
Perhaps that's what this is, a bridge of sorts. Think about it. Of course the category is ridiculously silly. What the heck is it supposed to mean anyway and it'll be an amusing memory in a few days. About the only thing sillier than this category is this discussion about deleting/endorsing/overturning. We all, pro-categorians as well as anti-categorians (if I may be permitted to coin those terms) need to learn to leave well alone. --regentspark (comment) 23:45, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well said John - Scott's post just above makes it very very clear that in policy delete in the only policy outcome for this category. - diff so the deletion was absolutely correct no many how many users support creating it , its against guidelines/policy - its divisive and disruptive as is this review - Youreallycan20:04, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that you go to WT:DEL and propose that WP:DEL be rewritten to include something like "Any admin may at any point do what they like and tell the community to piss off." Once it says that, actions of the sort under discussion here will be perfectly kosher. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:21, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm amazed at the lack of logical sense in YRC's comment. Scott, who deletes, gives a reason for deletion, and therefore the deletion was correct. Bravo. Drmies (talk) 22:46, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support deletion i think this a mild abuse of the categorization system, regardless of any good intent or positive solidarity message (which i do get). I would strongly support someone creating a UserBox with this message however, so people can stand with fellow editors in a way that doesnt interfere with categorizing. however, i will point out that if this category is chosen entirely in a humorous manner, and where all sides find it funny, then im ok with it staying. if anyone finds it offensive or passive aggressive, or pointy, it probably should go away. OK, now im starting to sound like im Splunging here...Mercurywoodrose (talk) 06:48, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep deleted regardless This cat is a useless drama magnet, not an aid for navigation of the project. Perhaps the deletion was done slightly out of process, I for one don't care. This category serves no legitimate purpose and may run afoul of WP:POINT. If it were up to me I would WP:SALT it as well. Look at all the energy wasted discussing a category that does nothing whatsoever to improve the project, quite the opposite. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:42, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are some arguments with merit both ways, but the "OMG censorship" "I need to express dissent" is just silly. No one is stopping you expressing dissent. There's lots of places to do that, and even an election in which you can give dissent expression and power. However, the validity of the dissent does not give validity to all possible means of expressing it. I can say I don't approve of David Cameron, I can express that disapproval in many ways, not least at the ballot box - that's democracy. But when authorities prevent me spray-painting political attacks on Cameron in inappropriate places, it is no defense to say "I demand the right to express dissent" - nothing but bad behaviour is being suppressed. There's lots of people who share your dissent, but support the deletion of this nonsense.--Scott Mac23:31, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To follow your analogy, your misguided attempt to delete this out of process was the equivalent of the government banning spraypaint. Anti-wikipedian, counter-productive, and drama-enhancing. Just let people register their protest peacefully. Or look silly. The choice is yours, and you've already made it. Undoubtedly well-intentioned but then so was Nicolae Ceaușescu. Where is he now? --John (talk) 23:58, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If it "may run afoul of WP:POINT" then there should be some place to determine that. We could call it "Categoriess for Deletion", and use consensus, as defined by Wikipedia policy, to determine the appropriateness of the category. I think that would be much better than speedy deleting the category in a way that runs afoul of WP:CSD. - SudoGhost23:33, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If there was a reasonable case to be made for the usefulness of this category, then a debate would be appropriate. Lacking any, even conceivable, utility then it is simple wikilawyering. But a debate is not a bunch of people using it as a pretext for a point making protest against one user's retracted remarks.--Scott Mac23:52, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Never mistake arguments you are unable to understand for wikilawyering. Aren't you at all concerned about WP:INVOLVED in your adventures trying to get this deleted? --John (talk) 23:58, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I must actually support Scott on this specific point - up until he actually deleted the category and closed the CfD, he had not taken part in the discussion, and he was therefore not WP:INVOLVED. However, as his subsequent strong expressions of opinion regarding the category have shown, he was not neutral and was therefore not able to close it in a disinterested way as required. As his closure was based on his personal opinion of the category, it was an out-of-process supervote (and he admits below that he does not "share the addiction to process"). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:13, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am very glad you are not the decider of such things, if "I don't see a reason so nobody gets to discuss it" is how you think Wikipedia should operate. However, this DRV is to determine if the close was appropriate. Per the wording of WP:CSD, it was not an appropriate close. - SudoGhost00:05, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, no one has given any reason why this is useful at all. Anyway, I disagree with your analysis that that his how Wikipedia should or does operate here (it's not a bureaucracy). This isn't all about Wikilawyering about CSD. Anyway, since neither you nor I are the decider of that, let's leave it be.--Scott Mac00:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is about CSD, that's what this DRV is discussing, whether it was appropriate or not. You cannot circumvent discussion by speedy delete something in an inappropriate way, and then claim that it's "wikilawyering" to say that maybe we should operate by consensus instead of a single admin's decision to circumvent both policy and the consensus building discussion that was already taking place. - SudoGhost01:25, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I accept that's your opinion about what's most important here, and what happened here, however I (and evidently many others) see it otherwise.--Scott Mac01:32, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)If it's as blantently destructive and useless as you're suggesting, then that will become obvious in a CfD, but don't prematurely shut down a discussion and then claim that "no one has given any reason why this is useful at all", that's what that discussion was for, and you disrupted that process. It's fine that you see it otherwise, but you and others are arguing for the deletion of the category, not endorsing the way it was deleted, and that's not the purpose of WP:DRV: "Remember that Deletion Review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate." - SudoGhost01:37, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We're going around in circles. I don't share the addiction to process. We speedy attacks and pointless disruption, and in this.... No, forget it. We see things differently here. Let's just leave it at that - I'm not going to restate what I've said above several times. If there was something important to review here it might be worth arguing with you, but not for this useless shit. I'm unwatching.--Scott Mac02:16, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I did just that. Show me the policy that says process is vital and must always be followed slavishly even against commonsense?--Scott Mac22:02, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As per John. Speedy deletion is for obvious things that don't need any discussion. It is for saving time and effort. This speedy deletion has not saved time or effort, and so was a bad speedy. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:46, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, that's just fucked. You can't say the only problem with my deletion is that it increases the drama, when the only reason there's drama is because wikilawyers like you are objecting to the deletion. That's inherently circular. If someone was actually saying "hold on I object to the the deletion because that which you deleted has some inherent worth" you'd have a point. But no one has suggested this useless piece of shit serves any useful purpose at all (how could they). So your objection to my deletion amounts to objecting because people like you object. Now, that's exactly the type of nonsense that our key WP:NOT policies are designed to eliminate. There is really no debate here except a fabricated one by people who like such nonsense.--Scott Mac22:49, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That comment is garbage Scott Mac, and you should strike it. Just to speak for myself, I am no way a wikilawyer, and I have clearly indicated why I think this category has some inherent worth. You may disagree, but please try and ground yourself in some reality. --Epipelagic (talk) 23:30, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you like, I can tell you reasons to keep, reasons why this usercatergory has non-zero worth. However, that would be a discussion for a talk page or a CfD discussion. But to begin: where someone asserts that something is nonsense, and someone else asserts that it has value, then there is a need for discussion, not administrator-privilege-empowered action to terminate. With regard to what invalidates a speedy, CSD is deliberately narrowly written to be exercised conservatively. It is not true that the only problem is that it increased drama. The most basic problem is that the level of offensiveness did not rise to the level of G10. Note its wording inlcudes "and serve no other purpose". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:38, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse per User:Tijfo098 above. We have long since moved on from our attempt to see if two wrongs make a right, right now we are busily trying to see if we can make something like seventeen wrongs make a right. This is something that fails to improve the situation... it only makes it worse. An attack page does not require XfD to delete it. The deleting admin was correct in his application of a speedy delete, regardless of any presumed consensus. Trusilver08:29, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The CSD:A10 speedy deletion request had already been declined by another admin, and the deletion was clearly not uncontroversial - therefore it was not a valid speedy deletion. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:45, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Because I tremendously respect that other admin, I reserve any further comment in the matter other than to say she was mistaken. A person attack is a personal attack, regardless of what kind of facade you attempt to legitimize it with. Trusilver20:55, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Where's the personal attack inherent in this category? As I see it, this is in protest at this personal attack. A protest against a personal attack is not automatically a personal attack. --John (talk) 21:28, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I get that it was intended as a joke/protest in response to a widely criticized remark by a sitting arbitrator. I for one don't think it is a personal attack. It also is not a category that actually aids in navigation of the project. That is what categories are for and it is obvious this was never intended to be helpful to anyone. If you want to have a protest, write an essay, open an RFC, campaign to get the offending Arb thrown off the arbitration committee, etc. Just don't ask us to pretend that this category serves any legitimate purpose for this project when it was never intended to do so. That is what we should be discussing here. How is anyone, ever, going to be aided in using WP by the existence of this category? Beeblebrox (talk) 00:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Utility of the category? Joke/protests have utility in providing an alternative, non-obvious perspective, and as such can aid discussion and learning.
“That is what categories are for”? Says who? Why are usercategories more sacrosanct for experimental uses than userspace and project space?
How is anyone, ever, going to be aided in using WP by the existence of this category? Usercategories enable shared identification, and they do so in a way that is more likely to be kept current than a list. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Recently many of our best content contributors have left or ceased contributing. This has resulted from insistent demands by a segment of users that everyone else conform to their own versions of what they call "civility". The alternative they offer is to leave the project. These users also indulge in a characteristic moral indignation. A similar flavour of indignation and contempt is occurring on this page, where some users are making sweeping dismissals of the people who want to retain this category. An erosion is happening to the ability of editors on Wikipedia to state things plainly and honestly. The category has, in my view, the legitimate purpose of allowing editors who are concerned by this development to express that concern. --Epipelagic (talk) 16:43, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Have checked on NOTPOINTY. It reads "As a rule, one engaging in "POINTY" behavior is making edits which s/he does not really agree with, for the deliberate purpose of drawing opposition". Certain editors were upset with the "not Wikipedian" statement, in solidarity they call themselves "not Wikipedians". that is classic POINT! SM's deletion rationale as explained here is what I refer to, apart from POINT, the category is also a blatant case of wp:BATTLEGROUND. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:51, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I do not understand the Wales analogy. Well we can agree to disagree on that point. Hope you read BATTLEGROUND one more time, the sub-section also has the policy shortcut wp:NOTFACTIONS, brings to my mind user:tarc's comment to the effect: Mob rule needs to be overturned by saner voices. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:38, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have read it, and I see nothing that warrants disrupting a CfD discussion. You believe that the category violates WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:POINT, others disagree. If you're going to ask that WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:POINT be followed, it's not appropriate that you at the same time ask that WP:CSD and WP:CONSENSUS be ignored. Wikipedia operates by consensus, not "mob rule needs to be overturned by saner voices". - SudoGhost14:54, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
CONSENSUS: Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. Decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's norms. SG I agree with SM, the category is so egregious that it necessitated the action taken. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:33, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What you quoted from WP:CONSENSUS has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, and I'm truly at a loss as to why you even copied it. Consensus was bypassed here, there was no consensus-based close in any stretch of the imagination. WP:CONSENSUS does not say "If the speedy deletion policy does not allow a deletion, any admin can bypass an ongoing consensus-building discussion in order to implement what they believe is best for Wikipedia." That's what consensus is supposed to determine. You believe it is "egregious", other people disagree. How do we solve that? Through consensus, because everyone thinks they are right, consensus is the only way things can get done if everyone thinks their way is correct and everyone else is "a mob rule that needs to be overturned by saner voices". If the category requires action, consensus will determine that, consensus is not a vote and if that's the correct action then a consensus will reveal that, but you don't ignore two policies in order to enforce your interpretation of another, especially when that same policy you're claiming needs to be followed also says that "Disagreements are resolved through consensus-based discussion," It does not say "Disagreements are resolved through admins enforcing their interpretation." - SudoGhost15:55, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's a leap of logic there that isn't found in what you quoted. If someone has a legitimate concern about something, it is discussed. That's the very basis of how Wikipedia operates, and the basis of what you just quoted. You discuss concerns, you don't violate one policy to enforce what you believe is found in another policy without discussing it. "Wikipedia norms" are determined by consensus. There was no consensus here, so how do we know how "Wikipedia norms" apply here? We don't, it's a bunch of differing opinions and no consensus whatsoever. - SudoGhost16:15, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you truly believe that one single editor prematurely shuting down and stopping any discussion in order to enforce their opinion is somehow in line with WP:CONSENSUS, then yes, we have different opinions on what is best for Wikipedia. I believe that consensus is best for Wikipedia, otherwise we have a bunch of editors believing that they know best and ignoring any discussion taking place, and that's not conducive to a collaborative editing environment. Administrators enact consensus, they do not bypass consensus in order to enforce their opinion. This close did not allow a consensus discussion to even take place, instead the decision was made by a single editor. That flies in the face of what makes Wikipedia what it is. You think the category doesn't belong, and that's perfectly fine, but that's what CfD is there to determine. You have a right to explain your position on the matter and if an administrator had decided to "speedy keep" the discussion based on their opinion you'd think that wasn't right and would want the ability to discuss it as Wikipedia policy intends; the fact that their opinion agrees with yours does not mean other editors have no right to even discuss the matter. Wikipedia operates by consensus; if you think consensus should be ignored when you agree with the one that did it then that's fine, but that's not what's best for Wikipedia. - SudoGhost16:45, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
While disgruntled elements created and support a terribly pointy, disruptive and divisive category, you lay so much emphasis on numbers and taking a discussion to its logical conclusion, considering your suggestion, we should understand that Wikipedia has about 17 million named accounts, 3-4 thousand editors make over 100 edits per month (reference Wikipedia:Wikipedians). Many a times there are indefinite global bans or blocks, which are exercised as a result of consensus. These are enforced with 10 - 15 editors comprising the consensus. For all practical purposes the sun is no nearer to a person standing on the top of Mount Everest than it is to a person at sea level, as is evident SM acted in the best interests of Wikipedia, to nip mischief in the bud. Does consensus mean agreement among a tiny fraction, described as "mob" above by a comrade editor ? Do they represent the consensus of 17 million, or even the 3- 4 thousand most active? If you insist that we seek a broader consensus in case of such a flagrant debasement of all that Wikipedia stands for, don't you think that it be the norm in case of other important "community" decisions. Anyways I wonder what your opinion on the category created is? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:23, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It seems your views on how things should work are not in line with Wikipedia's policies, if you think that we shouldn't bother with consensus just because there are a lot of accounts. That this is a "terribly pointy, disruptive and divisive category" is your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, but that does not make it any more valid than anyone else's opinion. The point of DRV is to discuss whether a given deletion discussion was closed properly. This one was not, as it bypassed an ongoing CfD discussion and speedy deleted the category in violation of Wikipedia's policy on speedy deletion. You're welcome to your opinion that Wikipedia shouldn't operate by consensus, but that's not an argument that the deletion discussion was closed in keeping with Wikipedia's policies. You're also welcome to your opinion on the category, but WP:CfD is the place for you to present that opinion, Not DRV. - SudoGhost13:36, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
it is always easy to attack a strawman. The interpretation of "consensus" is left to the judgement of the interpreter, it is not a head count. SM did not err in his action, it was perfectly kosher as far as policy goes. The category hurts the project, it is a manifestation of rotten mind sets. Such is my opinion and as I glance up and down the opinion of quite a few who endorse SM's actions. Thank you very much. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:43, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't claim something is a strawman, and then go on to say that a consensus is not a head count. Nobody said that it was, or even alluded to such a thing. The issue is that where was no consensus close here, I don't think anyone is even coming close to suggesting that consensus played any part in how this was closed, because that's absurd. WP:CONSENSUS and WP:CSD are both policies, and the close violated both of those, so it was also not "perfectly kosher as far as policy goes". Your opinion that the category "hurts the project" is what WP:CSD is for, your opinion on the category itself has no weight in a DRV discussion, that is not the purpose of DRV per the instructions that apparently were overlooked. - SudoGhost14:53, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Appropriate speedy deletion as a intentionally POV and divisive category, created, as I think even the keep arguments show, for the purpose of expanding an already divisive argument. DGG ( talk ) 19:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You are referring to someone who has more knowledge about XfD procedures and the relevant policies than anyone else I know. I am quite sure he understands where he is. Trusilver00:19, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is a shame that knee-jerk snark was the automatic response here, when it is pretty clear that DGG just put the wrong word in bold, and the gist of the text after that actually does address the merits of the close rather than the merits of the category. It's a shame that neither John nor Nomoskedasticity had the maturity to go to User talk:DGG and say "hey, did you mean to say "endorse" ? Tarc (talk) 16:10, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete in this context is a shorthand for Endorse the Deletion. Was anyone actually confused about what I intended? (I add this comment only because it was mentioned on my talk p., but Tarc is right that when one is reduced to trying to take up such extraordinarily minor & peripheral side issues, it is usually because one had no valid arguments on the actual matter at hand. Anyone who knows the background and is being honest with themselves would realize that both the category and this DelRev were intended to prolong trouble is deluding themselves. FWIW, I have previously made no comment in any direction at the underlying RfArb & various subsequent attempts to extend it. DGG ( talk ) 16:28, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I find that the more this is discussed the less I care. think ignoring this as part of the ridiculous forest fire that has spread from the underlying incident is the best course of action. I still think the category is useless and deliberately divisive but if we take a "let the baby have its bottle" approach to it this acrimonious and completely unproductive discussions are more likely to fizzle out. please feel free to heap all the abuse and backhanded accusations you like on me for making these comments as I will not be watching this or replying further. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:21, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
When does anything like this actually fizzle out, though? If anything, it will be cited as precedent the next time a similar situation comes around, and one of these yahoos on the support side will make a essay about it. Tarc (talk) 13:06, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Arguing against what you see as an attack page by making personal attacks against those you disagree with probably isn't the best thing to do. - SudoGhost14:12, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The entire aim of this categorization is itself a personal attack, so if you as one of it's rabid supporters feel attacked yourself, well that's just too bad, now is it? This is already a simple and straightforward WP:IAR case anyways, to which you and the other support yahoos have mustered little rebuttal. Also, please let me know when you're done trolling me via edit summaries over a few typos I made earlier. I mean, we all know that one someone starts pulling on the Grammar Nazi act, they have lost the argument, and lost it badly. But still, it wouldn't hurt for you to try. Tarc (talk) 14:44, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Administrators used to be the model users for those who don't storm off in a tizzy when things didn't go their way, either. Regards, — MoeEpsilon19:21, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Care to rewrite that so it would make sense in English? Actually, don't bother. I think I understood what you were trying to say. Do consider suing your high school though. --John (talk) 19:31, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Let me see if I can clarify this for you then. From your userpage: I do not feel I can contribute while the person who authored this personal attack is in a position of power. I feel like creating category "Category:Wikipedians who are semi-literate teenagers", and I refuse to contribute until this person is out of power! Regards, — MoeEpsilon19:40, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
'Overturn and keep If editors want to petulantly self-identify with an inherently self-contradictory category, why not? (deescalation, in this context, is simply ignoring the category) Nobody Ent15:47, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Depends on the problem. Since we're not going to get a quick, clean consensus to delete the cat the best approach is to ignore it. It's an attention seeking device, all this discussion provides positive feedback to the behavior. Nobody Ent17:10, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the contributors on this page, the main general divide is between those who have contributed substantial content to Wikipedia and those who haven't (there are exceptions of course). The damage was done to the nature of this divide long before the template was thought of. The contributors want to keep the template, and clearly want some sort of voice on Wikipedia, however tangential and faint. --Epipelagic (talk) 18:33, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tarc, there is plenty of bad faith to go around here on both sides, and you just added considerably to yours. I don't think Jclemens is a colossal douchebag, or even a tiny one, and that's just one of the fake rhetorical flourishes in that comment. This has what to do with female editors? Hot air, that's all it is. Drmies (talk) 18:38, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There's no bad faith on my side at all, I'm afraid. A bunch of jokers, as John so eloquently reminds us with his non-substance reply directly above, want to categorize themselves into a little pity party that doesn't like what a particular Arbitrator said. This category was created at 17:59, 23 October 2012. You tell me, was the Wikipedia improved from how it was at 17:58, 23 October 2012? Give one credible, reasonable argument that says the creation of this thing was a net positive, Drmies, because Lord knows none of your comrades have been able to so far. Just try...one simple, good argument that doesn't involve "it's harmless" or "improper". Tarc (talk) 19:06, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are actually a lot of credible and reasonable arguments on his page for overturning the improper speedy (which is what this discussion is about) and also for keeping the category. I realise accessing these would mean reading all those damn words, and that would be a lot of work for you. Much easier to just throw some cheap red herrings around, eh? Should you wish to read my carefully considered "overturn" argument, and assuming you can't be bothered reading through the words, the diff is at 1. --John (talk) 19:18, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument was crap, to put it mildly. IAR does override consensus, that's kinda the point of it, so that wipes out #1 and #2. #3 was laughable; you don't have a "right" to free speech here, so there is nothing to stifle. If you have a beef with an Arb, then vote for someone else to take his place at the next election cycle, or initiate a community discussion to remove him from power. You don't get to sit on your user-page and fling your poop like a monkey, which is pretty much what this category amounts to. Care to try again John, or is it time to retreat? Again. Tarc (talk) 19:26, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Much like the unfortunate row over grammar earlier today (now smoothed over), it is also unfortunate that some people find themselves mired in a desperate "if you disagree with me it must mean you don't understand me" dead-end. You think IAR doesn't override consensus, while I think it does, otherwise why have it at all? I shouldn't have to remind you what WP:IAR actually means, but if so it is "if a rule prevents you from improving an encyclopedia, then ignore it". IMO, the closer saw that the removal of a divisive, disruptive, and pointy category was to the betterment of the project, but rules about consensus, MfDs, and such prevented him from undergoing that improvement, so those rules were ignored. IAR's a tricky devil though, it can't just be "I don't like it", but when it is invoked correctly...and in this case I believe it was...then we are all better off for it. Tarc (talk) 19:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly, as the miles of discussion above illustrate, the removal of the category ended up being more divisive and disruptive than the original creation of the category itself. No question but that, in hindsight, it was a terrible decision. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) --regentspark (comment) 20:01, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes a little pain is necessary when doing the right thing, it serves as a reminder to others to proceed at one's own peril. I had to pry Marcus Bachmann from the vice-like, grippy fingers of the LGBT activists, the liberals, and the inclusionists last year. It was a painful process with much angst all-around, but it was worth it since at the end the right result came about. Tarc (talk) 20:21, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So, for the sake of the long term good, you support deletion via the long hard road of standard process dragging the community to a concensus, and reject the quick and easy speedy deletion option? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:54, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I support whatever is necessary to arrive at the right decision. In the case at hand here, the community at large was too short-sighted and petty to comprehend the fact that this categorization was a bad idea. So, the decision was made for them. Simple. Tarc (talk) 23:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The speedy deletion is not so simple. If it becomes acceptable for admins to play wise superuser and override the mistaken plebs then it devalues the community. The stakes here were not even significant, nothing like Marcus Bachmann. I support a straight reading of the intent of WP:CSD, starting with its first sentence. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. After all of this discussion it appears to have been the correct decision. Closing needs to be based on more then simply counting !votes. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:30, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - and enough of this. Divisive at its core, it's based on one comment from one editor, a purported rallying cry for some ill-defined revolution. Get rid if it and move along. Doctalk00:47, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
The Henk Rottinghuis Wikipedia article was deleted by HJ Mitchell on 9 December 2011, citing the following reason: 'G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion: see Wikipedia:Bell Pottinger COI Investigations'. The Henk Rottinghuis article included factual and well referenced information, much of which can be salvaged and rewritten. I would appreciate it if someone could review the article to see what options are available. Thanks, Vivj2012 (talk) 14:02, 22 October 2012 (UTC) Vivj2012 (talk) 14:02, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So everyone is aware, there is a declared COI issue here. That said, I'd support userfying this to Vivj and seeing what they can do in user space. I'd want their promise not to move it back to mainspace without bringing a draft to DRV first however. I'm basing this on the idea that the article, as it was, had reasonable sources (I can't see it, so...) Hobit (talk) 18:10, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've restored it so people can see it. It's not a particularly good article or anything, but I'm not sure I can see it as spammy enough to be a G11. WilyD10:02, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Appears to have been speedily deleted under WP:CSD#G4, though the addition of this source, from a reliable source (though not of sufficient depth) is too much for G4 to be valid. A cursory search on my part also revealed [6] from a second good publisher - probably others exist. Either way, G4 is inapplicable, and a full AfD could reasonably come to a keep or no consensus decision. The admin who speedily deleted it ignored my request to undelete the article and re-open the AfD. WilyD07:04, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Could we get a temp. undelete so that the 2009 and 2012 versions can be compared? If those sources were in the article in 2009 this is probably a valid G4. Hobit (talk) 10:52, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Neither was in the 2009 (only a link to her presskit). I'm sure someone will give a temporary undeletion, but I'm obviously involved. WilyD11:04, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn speedy and list at AfD with additional sources and ~3 years later I don't see how this can be a G4. That said, I don't see enough sourcing to believe this will make it through AfD. But that's what AfD is for and maybe we'll get lucky! Hobit (talk) 18:07, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
endorse deletion I think an AFD for this will be WP:SNOWING heavily, as the article has a strong promotional cast, and the additional source is essentially a primary source. We are close here to a WP:BLOWITUP situation even if an article is merited. Mangoe (talk) 11:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I believe Beeblebrox's close of "no consensus" ignores the policy- and guideline-based rationale for deletion (lack of significant coverage of this topic in reliable secondary sources), which was agreed to by 4 additional editors in the discussion. At least 3 editors, including myself and the article's creator, searched for secondary source coverage and found nothing more than track listings and a single chart position, which is already noted at Green Day discography#Live albums. Since the closure I have come across Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tune in, Tokyo..., a previous AfD from 2009 which closed as delete for this very reason (I was previously unaware of the 2009 discussion; it did not come up when I nominated the article due to the capitalization difference of the word "in"). This prior AfD demonstrates even more editors searching for significant secondary source coverage and coming up with nothing more than track listings. Had I known about the 2009 discussion, I would have speedy'd the new article under GCSD no. 4. I have discussed the issue with Beeblebrox, and even he has said "I agree, and so does nearly everyone else, that it should not have a stand-alone article". Yet he insists we go through a merger proposal to merge the article to Green Day discography...even though this EP is already listed there along with its chart position! I am well and truly flummoxed: We cannot delete an article on a topic even when it has received no significant coverage in reliable secondary sources, even when the article was previously deleted for exactly that reason, and even when the closing admin agrees that we shouldn't have an article on it? We must go through a merger discussion, even when the target article already contains the relevant content? This must be what going mad feels like. IllaZilla (talk) 03:53, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect it- your concern at Beeblebrox's talk page seems to be that someone will sneak back later and undo the redirect, so you'd prefer it to be deleted and then a redirect made. I would say, just redirect it and then if that does happens you can ask some admin to redirect & protect. ReykYO!05:51, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It already happened. More than once, from different titles. That's how it wound up at AfD in the first place: [8]→[9]→[10]→[11] and [12]→[13]→[14]. What I'm requesting is that the content be deleted and then a redirect left in its place. I have no object to the title existing as a redirect, but since there appears to be consensus that we shouldn't have an article then the content ought to be deleted to help avoid re-creation. --IllaZilla (talk) 06:08, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is pretty clear that what this is really about is a concern that a particular user will edit war to retain the stand-alone article. That is a behavioral issue, not a content issue. If what the nominator was after was a delete and then a redirect they probably should have said as much in the nomination at AFD. It's likely it could have changed the outcome and there would be no need for further discussion. I would also note that despite the nominator's objections to a merge discussion one is taking place. Somce it was opened before this DRV we now have the risk of one consensus being established there and another one here. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is absolutely no point to a merge discussion because there is literally nothing to merge. This is the part I cannot wrap my head around: Why you are insisting on a merge discussion when the target article already contains the mergeable content. You cannot merge A into B if B already contains A. --IllaZilla (talk) 18:30, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
endorse It was certainly leaning toward deletion, but I don't think there was a better closure to be had than NC though I'd have endorsed a "redirect" outcome (basically a delete for now) also. I don't see any reason to delete the history here, if it does get unredirected (should merge/redirect become the outcome at some future time) then it can be protected. Hobit (talk) 18:02, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Since there is both past and present agreement that this is an unsuitable article topic, and since it has already been un-redirected multiple times, deleting the history is the logical thing to do. Why hang on to content we agree we don't need? --IllaZilla (talk) 18:30, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Two points. #1 no such agreement existed in the last AfD. #2 We might need it at some point (should new sources appear or be found). As there is a valid redirect target, protection, if needed, is more than enough. We have an article per the last AfD, arguing for history deletion of the redirect is getting a bit ahead of ourselves. Hobit (talk) 18:39, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is too bad we were all unaware of the previous AFD, it may have changed how things turned out but at this point I think the merge/redirect discussion is the most pertinent discussion. If a consensus is established to redirect it and a particular user refuses to accept that consensus they can and should be blocked for disruption. If IPs or whoever are repeatedly undoing the redirect protection will put a stop to it. So insisting on deleting the history is not really necessary, we already have the tools we need to stop any future disruption. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:42, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse, good close. The closer can't magically create a consensus where there is none. There are conduct issues here, but they don't fall within AfD or DRV's purview. The attempt to use AfD for cleanup has now irretrievably failed. It would be nice if Wikipedia had effective dispute resolution procedures but it doesn't.—S MarshallT/C 11:23, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
'Keep the Page What do you mean by behavior be rewarded. Keep in mine its not my page and that I wasnt the only one that said keep. If anything Zillas shouldnt be rewarded because he has tried probably 7 times to get it deleted BlackDragon22:49, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I really wish the two of you could just shut up already. Your constant attacks on one another are what got us into this mess in the first place. Since it is clear neither of you have the self control to restrain yourselves and I frankly don't really give a shit about this anyway I am just going to walk away from this situation. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:46, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
I would like to request un-deletion of Elixio. Elixio is a global online community for business professionals.The network been around for about 5 years. Below articles mention Elixio as an emerging social network for business professionals:
Restore and list at AfD so the community can decide. Imo the Guardian coverage puts it over the bar for speedy deletion and a proper discussion is warranted.—S MarshallT/C 22:19, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
List at AfD I honestly think this was a reasonably speedy--I'm not sure a one paragraph mention is enough to "indicate the importance or significance" of the site. But given the other articles listed above this is probably a better case for AfD than speedy deletion. Hobit (talk) 18:21, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Restore/list at AfD the source coverage provided is enough to warrant further review, and it was present in the article at the time of deletion. Hut 8.509:24, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. WP is a spam magnet and the deletion processes and guidelines we currently have in place are insufficient to counter the flood of this type of article. User:Elmaacho( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) is clearly a WP:SPA attempting to promote Elixio. It is a waste of editors time in putting it through the Afd process. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 02:08, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
This page was speedily deleted as not indicating importance or significance. My memory (which may possibly be faulty) of reading this page before it was deleted is that it contained references to reliable sources, so those references were indications of importance or significance, which is supposed to be a lower standard than notability. I have attempted to resolve this with the deleting admin here and given a reminder here, but have had no reply, although that admin has been editing in the meantime. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:41, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My position for the moment is restore, unless and until Schuminweb has the courtesy to acknowledge Phil Bridger's question about this.—S MarshallT/C 18:47, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review. I was the one who tagged it for speedy deletion as A7; that was an error--I should instead have tagged it as G11. Judging from the Google translation of its website, ref. 2 above, I should have marked it as copyvio as well DGG ( talk ) 22:53, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now that this has been restored I see that it is a valid G11 deletion, although not a valid A7, so I'm happy to withdraw this request. This could have been handled much more simply if the deleting admin had replied to my questions. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:34, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Almost certainly a notable topic on which a good article could be written. But this article isn't even a good start other than a couple of the sources (maybe). So overturn as an A7, speedy as a copyright & G11 issue. Hobit (talk) 18:25, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Prime Time Begins at 7:30 – Close endorsed by default as there is clearly no consensus to do anything else. Its not IAR for the closing admin to read the commentary and base their close on that rather than just counting bolded comments. – SpartazHumbug!09:55, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
I debated on whether to bring this to deletion review, especially since the page hasn't actually been deleted, but I strongly feel WP:IAR was misused here. Consensus seems to be in favor of keeping rather than merging (the nom reasons for deletion were not elaborated on beyond "non-notable subject",the only deletion vote with elaboration was flawed from the beginning and seemed to be based on the author's personal knowledge of the subject rather than policy, only one other editor was in favor of deletion and one in favor of merging while four were in favor of keeping) and, with at least one editor offering to work on the article should it be kept, it seems appropriate that the article be kept and that merging only occur as a result of discussion should this editor not fulfill the promise to expand the article. At worst, this should have been no consensus. Please note that I am the one editor who was originally in favor of merging and am bringing this DRV because I may have been persuaded by subsequent comments to keep and allow chance for improvement.Redfarmer (talk) 23:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Given the IAR nature of the close and your opinion changing, I'd guess the closing admin might be willing to revisit this close without DRV. I didn't notice any discussion on their talk page. Perhaps you could withdraw this for now and see what you two can work out? It is a step that is supposed to happen first in any case. Hobit (talk) 00:59, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - I iVoted keep in the AfD based on the references I found. However, I don't disagree with the close assessment of consensus: "a brief promotional experiment that got some coverage, but there may not be enough to say about it for its own standalone article." In that discussion, I thought there may be enough to say about the topic, but Batard0 reviewed my post and had different observations. postdlf mentioned merge candidate but also indicated keep. Scottywong close appeared to be based on rough consensus. I don't see the close being based on IAR, even though that is what he posted in the close. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 04:22, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Merge" is the correct policy-based outcome, but the consensus was to "keep". DRV won't normally overturn a "merge" to a "keep" or vice versa because that can be done without administrative tools on the basis of a local consensus (e.g. on the article's talk page). That being so, it's not necessary for DRV to disturb Snottywong's close in this case, so we shouldn't; but I'd prefer not to use the word "endorse".—S MarshallT/C 11:48, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Closer comment - If you simply count bolded votes, then yes, the keep votes have a small majority. 3 delete, 1 redirect/merge, 4 keep. Whether or not there was an actual keep consensus is debatable. However, if you actually read the editors' comments, you'll find that at least half of the editors (both delete and keep voters) mention that a merge/redirect is an acceptable (or even a preferred) outcome. I didn't feel comfortable closing this one as keep, as there didn't seem to be strong enough agreement that this subject deserves/requires a standalone article. Rather than close it with no consensus and send the article to limbo, I believe that merging the article is the ideal outcome, and it is supported by the comments of the editors involved. Had Redfarmer contacted me on my talk page to discuss this AfD, I'm not sure what I would have done, but I would have listened with an open mind. However, now that we're already at DRV, I guess I just have to defend my close and wait to see what happens. -Scottywong| spout _14:52, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think that merge is a bit of a forced compromise. I prefer "no consensus. I am redirecting as a normal editorial decision. [detailed rationale]" Flatscan (talk) 04:09, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
The article in question was incorrectly closed as Merge over Keep, No Consensus, or a relisting. It was initially proposed for deletion due to copyvio rather than placing {{copyvio}} on the article. The copyvio was (apparently) cleaned so any delete !votes related to copyvio are no longer relevant. The keep !votes were generally not supported by policy; however, one keep !vote mentioned notability and systemic bias. There was only one merge !vote, which was not supported by policy. It was focused primarily on the quality of Bigg Boss 6 relative to Bigg Boss, which is irrelevant per WP:NOTCLEANUP/WP:RUBBISH. It also violates precedent, which is separate from WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS because consensus can be determined from precedence. RyanVesey18:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn. The TV show in concern is one of the major reality shows in Indian TV, with major coverage in entertainment-related media. So, it meets WP:GNG. Copyvio concerns have been addressed. So, the merge decision should be overturned, and the article kept.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist :Same reason as Dwaipayanc. It's a Major reality show. Major. Major. La Major. Even here in Pakistan, we watch it. As i said, it's MAJOR.--I'm Titaniumchat18:47, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
AFDs have two outcomes, delete and not-delete. All of the various not-delete outcomes can be amended by editorial discretion (i.e. BOLDness), especially if they overcome the reason for the particular decision. Stifle (talk) 20:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, you don't have to deal with the edit wars that can potentially happen on these pages when one editor attempts to improve the article and another constantly reverts, citing "consensus" in the AfD. Merge decisions should only be used where there is clear consensus to do so to avoid such needless conflicts. Redfarmer (talk) 00:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What he said. Stifle, your logic is faulty. In addition, if that is the argument you are making, an AfD should never be closed as merge. Instead, it should be closed as "keep with recommended merge" or something along those lines. RyanVesey00:23, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Closer note My reasoning was that people who supported deletion cited copyvios, which were removed. The later comments indicated the remaining article was insufficient to stand on its own when compared with the parent topic. As noted, I considered the keep comments unconvincing as being insufficiently grounds in policy. MBisanztalk22:01, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist, keep votes being insufficiently grounded in policy is not a reason for a merge decision, especially when delete votes are equally unconvincing. As noted, copyvios have been removed and being a poorly written article is not grounds in itself for deletion/merging. This should have been a no consensus close. Redfarmer (talk) 23:55, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
relist given there was very little useful discussion after the copyright problems were fixed, I'd say a relist would have been the best discussion. In response to Tim, I'd argue crappy discussions should be relisted, not merged. Hobit (talk) 01:02, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - It's transparent what the article is being used for: Weekly Summary, Weekly tasks, Voting History, Dance-off Chart - the artice is a WP:COATRACK to maintain an ongoing, up-to-date diary that includes excessive listings of statistics contrary to WP:NOT. Does the topic Bigg Boss 6 meet WP:GNG? It probably does. Beginning with Daily Times (Pakistan) November 17, 2011: "'Bigg Boss 6' will go nude: Rakhi Sawant," there's a lot of write ups on the topic. However, adding WP:GNG material to the article appears to be a secondary, perhaps third, interest in editors maintain that article. There was enough participation that discussed the topic outside of the copyvio issue for MBisanz to close the discussion. His Closer note above provides a rational basis behind his decision. There no reason we can't wait until after Final Week 14 before visiting the issue again. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 04:51, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - If anyone of you thinks that the weekly summaries, voting history, weekly tasks etc are sufficiently unnecessary to be kept on the article then i suggest to post an AFD on 13 Big Brother UK, 9 Celebrity Big Brother UK, 9 Big Brother Australia and, God knows how many, Pinoy Big Brother articles. And these are just three countries. You'll still have half of wikipedia left to cover for only the Almighty God knows how many similar-to-Bigg Boss articles we have. --I'm Titaniumchat09:17, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: With many users voting on Overturn and widely opposing the merge, why is this topic left to rot? Nobody seems to be giving a s*it about it anymore. Don't tell me we have to make banners to protest that unpredictable decision of yours, MBisanz! --I'm Titaniumchat13:56, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm Titanium, there's 2 editors who explicitly agreed with the close, and one who didn't comment on the merits of the close as it related to the discussion, but felt that it was the right close. With that in mind, I hope you see how silly you sound when you act like this was the worst close ever made. RyanVesey13:59, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So, Who are you listening to? Or more precisely what are you listening to? Still puzzled? Like Seriously? What kind of discussion is this? People are voting as reasonable close to a crappy discussion is this a vote, fact, what? Should this be counted? I thought it wasn't a popularity contest and the right approach shall be considered. LOL --I'm Titaniumchat15:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't a vote, and opining that the result of the deletion discussion be overturned isn't the same as opposing the merge. It is quite possible that some editors believe that the article should be merged, but that the deletion discussion should be overturned because of procedural irregularities. Don't be surprised if the result ends up being overturned, and then some of the editors here who supported this course of action end up arguing that the article be deleted or merged once the article is relisted for deletion. —Psychonaut (talk) 13:10, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I really do not see why a copyvio conflict ended in a merge despite the content being entirely removed. :S What more does the article lack? Why not point out the mistakes and rectify them?--I'm Titaniumchat14:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes what an article lacks is independent notability of its subject. In such cases proposing and carrying out a merge (or even a deletion) is pointing out and rectifying the mistake. —Psychonaut (talk) 10:18, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
For those of you who din get what i said. I meant Psycho as a nick name. Spreading the love peeps. :* (flying kiss) Angel of peace. Yeah. Ahan. --I'm Titaniumchat12:46, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relist Given the existence of similar articles for other seasons, it seems there is some chance that a discussion on the current state of the article might keep it. It is quite clear, however, that the previous discussion was thrown off by the copyvio issue. The attempt to work around that and pull a consensus out of one response is hard to justify. Mangoe (talk) 12:03, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relist (disclosure, I had a delete rationale of it being a copyvio). I would however like to see this closed before we can make a true assessment on the copyvio nature of the article(s). Legoktm (talk) 00:40, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Question: In the current state of the article, after removing copyvio, with all those itsy-bitsy he-sneezed-she-coughed details, would the article have been passed had it been submitted at WP:AFC? I ask this to all the experienced editors. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 05:03, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I honestly couldn't say. My notion of the appropriate level of detail for an encyclopedia article is much lower, it would seem, than the median for this subject area. Mangoe (talk) 12:14, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ofcourse! The necessary encyclopaedic information needed for the existence of this article is low. But what do we do when over-information is given? Would Barack Obama on social media been cleared from AFC had all his tweets been mentioned in the article? Would biography of some celebrity been cleared when their daily schedule was mentioned? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 15:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This article was marked for deletion with the following reason:
"I believe the subject fails WP:GNG, however, I could be wrong (maybe more French references?) The article also has no reliable sources and was created by the subject." on September 29th, 2012
The article was in the course of being written, and references couldn't be added in the English article on time before deletion.
The author is well known in French, and his Wikipedia page in French was not started by him, but by his editor, though we had to change the name (initially Pierre Johnson, which was ambiguous), thus creating another article.
References were soon added to the French page, showing that the author, not an academic but an independant activist and researcher, is well known, not only in France, but also in the Americas, for his work on Fair Trade and other issues.
Here are some of the sources you can check, which answer to your question about references:
Publications of the author referenced by the Fair Trade Institute (USA): [29]
A well-known and extensive publication on Fair trade in Guatemala (2006): [30]
Please not that Google Scholar is by no means an exhaustive ressource, as it refers only to scholars, and not to other kind of publications.
The book mentioned above is referenced in Google Books: [31].
This publication has had an important impact in Guatemala, as it served as a basis for defining the interinstitutional policy on Fair Trade in Guatemala in the years after 2006, as can be demonstrated in the following document: [32] Plan for the development of Fair Trade in Guatemala (2007-2013).
There are other references posted in the French version of the page, which we will include in the English version, as soon as the page is restored.
Please reconsider deletion after viewing those references, which mean that the main reason mentioned was a misperception.
Not being able to read Spanish puts me at a significant disadvantage. That said, there seems to be the potential of a good case here. I'd prefer userfication in the hopes that the nom can finish up the article as time allows before putting it in mainspace. Hobit (talk) 18:17, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Controversies surrounding Royal Dutch Shell – Endorsed DRV is never going to agree to a copyvio being restored but there is rarely an objection to your trying to create a fresh article that doesn't suffer from the same issues as the previous one. I would suggest that you worked on a user draft first but that's your decision. – SpartazHumbug!16:24, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Restore: Do not delete. Reasons in Administator discussion: Includes a lot of information, large document with long history and many editors, deletion arguments dim since not specified arguments, not convincing arguments to delete, reasons vague and not proven correct, only few participants in the deletion discussion, no consensus. Original article should be returned. Watti Renew (talk) 14:24, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion, with no objection to starting the article from scratch. I don't think there was a clear consensus that the article shouldn't exist, but the arguments for deleting the article as it stood at the time were overwhelming (copyvio alone was enough, but neutrality seemed to be a really big issue too). —WFC— FL wishlist15:30, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
This redirect to Joe Biden was speedily deleted twice by user:Horologium under criterion G10. user:Purplebackpack89 recreated the page with just an RfD template and then listed it for discussion at today's RfD with the rationale "Restore redirect. Article was twice deleted by the same admin, claiming it was an attack page. I believe that it isn't. The moniker has been used in numerous articles in a non-negative light".
Overturn and start RfD G10 is for things that are unambiguously attack redirects. This doesn't meet that very conservative threshold, and needs to be sent to an appropriate discussion forum, rather than deleted again. Deleting administrators should be especially cautious in deleting a redirect as G10 without another editor nominating it first, and even more cautious when they are tempted to delete a redirect a second time, because doing so implies that the editor who has recreated the redirect is an outright vandal, rather than an editor in good standing who does not believe that the redirect meets G10. Jclemens (talk) 16:03, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Restore without recommending RfD. I have heard of this term several times and never was it used to portray him in a negative light. -- King of♥♦♣ ♠ 23:05, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Restore - There are no Criteria for speedy deletion that justify the deletion. Although the same admin speedy deleted the redirect twice, the deletion actions were ten months apart, making them separate actions rather than a reaction to opposition to the first speedy deletion by an editor in good standing (which would be much worse). That being said, I agree with Jclemens' post. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 12:57, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Restore per above. Go to RfD if desired. Note that a wikipedia search for "amtrak joe" gives Joe Biden as the first result. The wikipedia search function is must better that it once was, and these redirects are now unnecessary. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:07, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If the person who objected to my (second) deletion had waited more than two minutes after leaving his initial message on my talk page before recreating the page and leaving me a snotty comment, I would have restored it. When I went to restore the redirect (less than five minutes after his first request), I discovered that it was no longer a redlink, but had an RFD template. As I noted on my talk page (the first part of my original response was prior to the edit conflict and the page recreation), I was more than willing to restore it, after a more thorough reading of the article made it clear that it wasn't a attack against Joe Biden (in opposition to some of the other redirects I have nuked because they serve to disparage their targets). I believe in a liberal application of speedy deletion when it comes to BLP subjects, and politicians (especially American, but Anglophones in general) are common targets for nasty backbiting. I think it's better to not have a redirect than to have one which was created to score cheap political points. Sometimes, I err on the side of caution (as I did here), but I'd rather go too far than not go far enough. YMMV. Horologium(talk)19:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is fine to err on the side of deleting redirects on the basis of a hint of a BLP issue. However, once there is a single voice of opposition to the deletion, the case should go to XfD. Your first deletion was fine. You second should have been an RfD nomination. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, the first one was NOT fine; please refer to Wikipedia:CSD G10#G10. It was incorrect, but perhaps excusably so. The second one, no matter how far separated in time, is not excusable, and deserves to be called out as poor administrator judgment. Defending that poor judgment, especially in the face of unanimous opposition at DRV, simply compounds the problem. Crying "BLP" on a redirect that wasn't even clearly negative in the first place is a worse idea still. Jclemens (talk) 06:23, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You know, it's pretty obvious (from my reaction on my talk page) that I have acknowledged that I was wrong. I GOT IT. At this point, I wholeheartedly endorse recreation of the page. (Any administrator should feel free to close this discussion at this point and restore the redirect, to make it explicit for the record.) I was in the process of restoring the link when I discovered that it had been recreated, which (at least to me) seems to be an indication that I have acknowledged that my judgement was wrong. I am not going to fall on my sword and beg forgiveness, though, and citing an essay that was initiated by you and is largely your work is not, in my opinion, a particularly convincing argument. Again, YMMV, but I'd rather be conservative (by being bold) and nuke a redirect that might be a slur than leave it there. If you believe that Senator Sandwich or I never inhaled or Ass juice or Hell no you can't or Obamaville or Bushville or Tony Blur or Mr Long Legged Cleggy Weggy or Snipergate or Ronnie Raygun or Rod Blasonofabitch or Herr Gropenfuhrer or Joe Liarman or Rotten egg fart or Hot Tub Tom or Juan McChink or Please refudiate or Wienermania or Teflon Bill or Make no mistake or Let me be clear or San Fran Nan or Oxymormon or Goodhair Perry or any of the many other gratuitous attacks launched by redirects are acceptable, then I doubt that BLP means anything to you other than an obstacle to be overcome in creating a complete "anything goes" compendium. Horologium(talk)01:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Inappropriate use of non-admin closure in violation of Wikipedia:NACD#Non-administrators_closing_discussions which states "Close calls and controversial decisions are better left to an administrator." There was substantial and ongoing discussion on this item, including attempts to fix the article itself, but a consensus had not yet been reached when some random and unknown user suddenly shut the entire discussion down by misusing non-admin closure. The discussion should be allowed to run its course, User has been notified at User talk:Hahc21#Rashmi Singh. K7L (talk) 02:13, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
File:BornToDieParadise.jpeg – Deletion Endorsed Despite claims to the contrary, the policy on the reuse of non-free album covers is pretty clear. As Uzma Gamal states in this discussion the album artwork is often intrinsic to the identity of the album and consequently we don't tend to look very closely at the NFCC for the single representation of the album artwork in album infoboxen. Beyond thatm there seems no logical reason why additional images should not have to comply with the NFCC which is mandated by the foundation and generally well accepted, albeit there is a largish contingent of the community that would like them to be less rigid. The required tests in this case boil down to the image adding something to the article that cannot be conveyed by text and/or the image being critically discussed in the article (not external sources as Uzma Gamal comments), The degree in which we apply this is indeed something that is open to debate but this is generally within the discretion of the closing admin. Reviewing the commentary here and having explained the policy on which I have closed this, I find the arguments that the close was within admin discretion to be the most policy based ones here. This is mainly because the image isn't discussed in the article. Per Uzma Gamal, if there is sourcing to show that this artwork is subject to external commentary in reliable sources, than there is a clear argument that the image would then pass the NFCC once the relevant text has been sourced and is stable in the article. In other words, while endorsed I don't think it would take much work to make the use of this image compliant under the NFCC – SpartazHumbug!14:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Support - I think this file might have been deleted, because, at the time, it was a duplicate of a lower resolution version. Both were mistakenly marked for deletion and subsequently deleted. Either that, or the this file was confused with File:Paradise EP.jpeg, but there are subtle, important differences that justify the inclusion of both images, the former on Born to Die (Lana Del Rey album) and the latter on Paradise (EP), since they are a re-release of an album (with a unique cover, when compared with the original) and a separate extended play. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 23:10, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - the other duplicates of this file were File:Paradise Edition of Born to Die by Lana Del Rey.jpg and File:Lana Del Rey Born to Die - The Paradise Edition.jpg. See also here: [35]--Thevampireashlee (talk) 23:18, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse The image still isn't discussed critically in the article. User:MrIndustry has misunderstood WP:NOTAVOTE: it is not the number of votes which matters, but the reasons for keeping/deleting a file. For example, User:SuperHotWiki doesn't refer to any policy at all. Besides, this nomination violates the deletion review policy: you have to discuss the matter with the deleting administrator before starting a discussion here, but I see no prior discussion at User talk:SchuminWeb. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:34, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My watchlist says De728631 deleted it. So I wrote on his talk. It's a WW re-release. Its album cover is completely different than the original release. This is literally ridiculous. --MrIndustry (talk) 16:49, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
User:De728631 deleted it as G4 because someone had re-uploaded the image without respecting the previous deletion discussion. You are supposed to contact the user who performed the initial deletion instead, and according to the instructions, you have to discuss the matter with the user before bringing something here, not just post a notice about the deletion review after starting it here. Indeed, as you wrote, this is literally ridiculous:
Book articles don't get an extra cover image only because there was a reissue with a different cover. For example, there are lots of different covers for The Fellowship of the Ring, but there is only one cover in the infobox.
Computer software articles don't get an extra cover image only because there was a reissue with a different cover. For example, there are lots of different covers for Microsoft Windows, but not a single one appears in the article.
Video game articles don't get an extra cover only because there was a reissue with a different cover. For example, the European and Asian covers of Sonic the Hedgehog (1991 video game) are completely different to the American cover, but only the American one appears in the article.
Films don't get an extra image only because there is an alternative poster or a DVD cover or something. For example, the article Avatar (2009 film) only has one poster, but google:Avatar+movie+poster shows that there are plenty of very different posters available.
Well, compare with Little Busters!, then. It was first published as "Little Busters!" in 2007, and then remade into pornography as "Little Busters! Ecstasy" in 2008. The article suggests that a lot of new content was added in the second version, but there's no cover of "Little Busters! Ecstasy" in the article. Or, for that matter, Le Monde, which is published everyday with completely different material, but only has one cover in the article. --Stefan2 (talk) 15:34, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not familiar with Busters so I can't understand it completely. It looks like there's FIFTEEN versions of it so that's probably why. Your argument is really petty talking about Le Monde. Why are you comparing a re-release of an album with 9 additional tracks with a newspaper that sells a new issue every day? Seriously? Why are you in this debate? --MrIndustry (talk) 16:46, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn: Music albums are known to be identified by their album covers, and in this case a new cover has been released for this subsequent edition of the album. Various other articles on Wikipedia feature alternate album covers, so there is no reason why Born to Die (Lana Del Rey album) should be treated any differently. The original FFD discussion was also leaning to "no consensus", but it was closed citing WP:NFCC. Alternate album artwork is certainly not forbidden to be used on Wikipedia, even though it appears some editors would wish it to be that way.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:54, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Music albums are known to be identified by the music. Exactly how is this any different from the four examples I listed above? Also see WP:NFC#UUI §2: if you are trying to turn the infobox section into a discography of versions of this album, then you can't include images of all of the different cover variants. About the "various other articles", see WP:OTHERTHINGSEXIST. --Stefan2 (talk) 16:08, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OTHERTHINGSEXIST is the worst page to come out of this project in some time. When you explain that there are hundreds of other articles on this project that feature a certain aspect, then by all means that shows that there is a standing precedent on Wikipedia that clearly allows for this kind of content.—Ryulong (琉竜) 12:00, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The article for this album currently has 166 cited references. If the different cover artwork is truly as significant as it's made out to be here, surely sufficient critical commentary can be found on the subject to add at least one reliably-sourced sentence about it to the article. That's all it really needs. 74.74.150.139 (talk) 16:28, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to note that I didn't delete the original file, that was done by SchuminWeb; see the XfD link above. I even !voted to keep that. But since it was uploaded again after the first FFD, if under a different name, I had to delete it per policy. You should have raised this deletion review right after the first deletion instead of uploading the image again. De728631 (talk) 18:29, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn original AfD Policy is not sufficiently clear and unambiguous on this point that a 2/2 split can be closed as "delete" by an impartial administrator. A "no consensus" would have been a perfectly fine outcome, but a relisting would probably have been simpler all around. We do have precedents for multiple album artwork, like Virgin Killer, and the discussion should have turned, but didn't, on the adequacy of critical commentary for the new album artwork. Jclemens (talk) 04:42, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - What article do you plan to use File:BornToDieParadise.jpeg in? From the FfD, "there is already a different cover in the article." What article? What different cover? Is the different tracklists in the article, as mentioned in the FfD? Is there an Infobox album in an article into which File:BornToDieParadise.jpeg will be placed? -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 13:28, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Before it was deleted, it appeared in the main infobox (see Special:PermanentLink/517276711 for the last revision before the first deletion). When it was reuploaded, it was again placed in the main infobox at the top of the page (see Special:PermanentLink/518081015 for the last revision before the second deletion). Although the file has been deleted, you can still see the redlinked text "The Paradise Edition" in the infobox, indicating where it was used. Are you saying that you are planning to use the image in a different way than the way it was used before? --Stefan2 (talk) 13:57, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Critical commentary of the alternate cover was reported in this source by Stuff on September 25, 2012. It was added to the article in this edit. Surely it is sufficient and/or likely that additional commentary exists in other third party sources. It would seem to have a better rationale that articles like One by One (Foo Fighters album), which merely use multiple non-free content covers as decoration with minimal to zero documented commentary. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 20:07, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Allow uploading and allow relisting. The source "Genevie Rosen (September 25, 2012). "Lana Del Rey releases afterthought". Stuff.co.nz. Retrieved October 17, 2012." appears to be a Wikipedia reliable source and discusses the new artwork. The Stuff.co.nz source is significant new information (at least new to the FfD discussion) has come to light since a deletion per WP:DRVPURPOSE. The album was released on January 27, 2012 and they are releasing a new one eleven months later with significant changes. That is very odd and likely to have generate reliable source discussion. Album artwork is a large part of identity of a musical work and changing the album artwork after such a short time likely will have generated reliable source discussion. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 05:26, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
While we are discovering that G4 was applicable to the initial FFD last month (the closure of which is still a little problematic to me), the issue now stands that this new cover is the subject of critical commentary, which allows it to pass NFCC 3a & 8.—Ryulong (琉竜) 11:48, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
3a) Invalid. Born to Die original artwork can't convey the message of a re-release. 8) Of course it increases the readers understanding of a re-release.--MrIndustry (talk) 21:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn. There was no consensus to delete in the FfD, and the policy situation isn't so clear cut as to allow judgment calls by administrators; these aspects of NFCC compliance are a matter of editorial judgment about which editors may in good faith disagree. Sandstein 08:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relist the discussion should have turned on the issue of sources describing the image, it did not. Uzma Gamal has identified a source that does and there may be others that go into more depth. Relisting seems the way to go forward so a discussion can be had if this meets our NFCC guidelines now. Hobit (talk) 00:19, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion about the image that User:Uzma Gamal found isn't part of Wikipedia. It is irrelevant if there are documents outside Wikipedia which mention the image; the purpose of an image is to help users understanding a Wikipedia article, not to help Wikipedia users understanding an external document. Also, as User:King of Hearts wrote, there is an almost identical image in Paradise (EP). Quoting WP:NFC: "If another non-free image of an element of an article is used elsewhere within Wikipedia, referring to its other use is preferred over repeating its use on the list and/or including a new, separate, non-free image." --Stefan2 (talk) 00:29, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless, they're two different albums and need to be treated as individual. People keep altering the EP article with re-release info, and including the SAME cover will only confuse them further. --MrIndustry (talk) 00:33, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not like it's a tremendous issue, but I was the one that procured the source and used it in the article (see above). I wiki-linked the article text on Born to Die (Lana Del Rey album) to point to the image description page. But, honestly, I don't see how "referring" to the image is better than simply posting it in the article. One way or the other, the reader is going to see it. Why add the extra hassle? Including the cover art, on two articles about the albums, in no way inhibits their ability to sell either album. If anything, it promotes it. On top of that, the cover is of reduced quality, is accompanied by critical commentary, and I think the article suffers without its inclusion to which there is no free alternative. If that doesn't satisfy NFC, then I don't know what does. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 01:20, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's a source outside of Wikipedia. And yes, that means we have a source that discusses the image. And yes, that can be a good reason to keep a non-free image (WP:NFCI #1). Is it enough? That's what we have FfD discussions for. DRV's role in this case (in my opinion) is to allow a wider discussion about if the image is needed. Hobit (talk) 02:59, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is a source outside the Wikipedia article. However, as I wrote, it is irrelevant if there are sources outside the Wikipedia article or not; it only matters if the Wikipedia article itself critically discusses the image. The purpose of the image is not to illustrate the external article but to illustrate the Wikipedia article. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:37, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As of today, the Wikipedia article does contain a critical commentary: The reissue's cover art released on 25 September. It features Del Rey with her hair free flowing against a tropical backdrop. [94] Genevieve Rosen, writing for Stuff, said the cover art was "looking slightly more luxe than in her stark and minimalistic original Born To Die portrait."[94]. So there is an appropriate reason to illustrate the WP article with said alternative cover art work. Referring to the similar EP cover would only confuse the general reader, so we need to display the real re-release cover in the album article. De728631 (talk) 13:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is virtually a textbook example of how not to close an AFD. No consideration given to input in the existing AFD, and the closing rationale is based solely upon the closing admin's view on what should be done with the article. Sarah was free to express an opinion in the AFD, and that opinion may or may not have resulted in the article being kept. She was not free to keep it in opposition to all input in the AFD discussion. —Kww(talk) 21:21, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Oy vey. This was an epic fail on my part. I'm a public art scholar, what can I say? :) Anyway, you can see the at length discussion that took place here: User_talk:SarahStierch#RE:_Closing_of_Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion.2FThe_Elephant_House_.282nd_nomination.29 Not much to really say here, except that I've had my slap on the wrist (this is my first big epic fail as an admin!) and sorry for the problems it has caused. I do believe it falls under our notability guidelines it's mentioned in multiple reliable sources. If we delete this...we better get on top of deleting the majority of public art articles on Wikipedia. SarahStierch (talk) 21:24, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - a recently promoted admin made a borderline bad close, but the AfD was struggling to make a sound rationale for deletion, and what matters is improving the encyclopedia. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits22:03, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relist with SarahStierch's closing comments as a Keep !vote. While she makes a good argument about notability, I think it was technically an incorrect close. (I'd lean toward keeping the article myself.) Mark Arsten (talk) 22:11, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist. Now this close really does strike me as wrong "with the force of a five-week-old, unrefrigerated dead fish". Either a delete close or a no consensus WP:NPASR close would be within admin discretion. I thought it'd be quite obvious that a keep close is not an available option when no editor argued for keeping the article (except for speedy keeps for disruptive nominations), but apparently I was wrong. Even worse, the close itself is a textbook supervote. T. Canens (talk) 22:46, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relist - if the "reliable sources" supporting this article are enough, then virtually any outdoor elephant is "public art". What are the "multiple reliable sources that this is a notable work of public art? (Nevermind, this is what wikipedia is now. Probably will remain. But I'm sorry editor energy is put into stuff like this.) MathewTownsend (talk) 22:53, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Sarah, given what you say above, it's probably simplest if you relist the debate yourself? The closer always has discretion to self-overturn and if you're willing to do that then we can skip over the whole DRV process and go straight to the fresh discussion. You can leave it to run if you'd rather, but I'm positive that the view expressed by Mark Arsten and T. Canens above will prevail, and it's right that it should. Well done for being willing to admit a mistake.—S MarshallT/C 22:54, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm all for the admin choosing to relist themselves... except that this had been relisted twice already with minimal participation, so I think the best recourse would be to overturn (or have the admin reclose) to No consensus. Jclemens (talk) 02:51, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are on the right track, but what about the WP:NPASR (suggested in WP:QUORUM and elsewhere)? Instead of changing the closing, what about asking the closing admin to add "WP:NPASR one week after this closing."? Unscintillating (talk) 14:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to delete- Agreed that the discussion was unlikely to get much more participation. However, the nomination and sole delete !vote were thoughtful and well argued, so IMO a workable consensus was reached. ReykYO!03:55, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
relist certainly a bad close but it isn't clear it should be deleted. I think after being at DRV we'll get some additional voices. Hobit (talk) 05:15, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - based on the discussion, it should've been closed as soft delete. Based on the article, it should've been closed as keep. Closing admin should've !voted, rather than closed, to be sure. Doing anything seems pointlessly bureaucratic, since the right outcome was reached. WilyD08:55, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if someone really wants to renominate, that's their business, but I can't support nominating something for deletion that obviously should be kept. WilyD05:24, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy close without prejudice This deletion review can be immediately closed, as the DRV nominator is inexperienced in the deletion process, and presumably unaware that DRV issues need to be discussed on the talk page of the closing administrator before bringing them to DRV. Had the DRV nominator tried to discuss the matter, the closing admin could have pointed out this post made by the Xfd nominator, "I'm satisfied from Sarah's response that, despite the closing appearing sloppy, there was no malicious intent, and as she has improved the article drastically, making my initial argument for deletion moot, there is no longer any need to bring it up to Deletion Review." Unscintillating (talk) 12:28, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Inexperienced" as I am, I know that speedy closes of any kind are inappropriate whenever there is any controversy. Despite your satisfaction with the end result, the close was atrociously done, and, based on current article contents, deletion may still be appropriate. If you read over my RFAs, you would know why I refrain from AFD closes ... I just don't need the stress.—Kww(talk) 16:51, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Did you look at the closing admin's talk page before starting this DRV? There was an on-going discussion. The AfD nominator had withdrawn their objection to the closing an hour before you posted the DRV. Unscintillating (talk) 22:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Since I said nothing about my "satisfaction with the end result", and I quoted another editor that used the word "satisfied", I suspect that the previous post is a hasty edit with limited fact-checking. Unscintillating (talk) 22:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't need to read the nominator's RFA pages to know that the nominator should have discussed the matter with the closing admin, just like any other editor, before bringing the matter to DRV. Unscintillating (talk) 22:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse per pigs mostly. AfD nominations that fail to make a case for deletion can be closed as keep even in the absence of any keep votes. Taking into consideration prior AfD discussions should be encouraged. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 17:22, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to delete as there is a valid nomination and without a single keep, the use of AfD1 to support a keep is not valid as AfD was in fact withdrawn, example of supervote. Mtking (edits) 19:26, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You do realize that the only special power granted the nominator is that you can withdraw the AFD up and until the first delete !vote is entered? Once that happens, you have no special power over the article's fate.—Kww(talk) 05:33, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So MtKing's argument is reasonable because the first AfD nominator withdrew concerns during the AfD, and the second AfD nominator withdrew concerns after the AfD? There are two additional points here, one is that AfD is not a vote count, so "entering" a delete !vote does not prevent a closing admin from taking down the !vote. The closing admin in this case has taken down the delete !vote, so an "Overturn to Speedy Keep WP:NPASR" remains in order for this DRV. The second point is that MtKing's !vote here does not consider WP:QUORUM. Unscintillating (talk) 10:43, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Restore and relist. There is certainly not present consensus to delete--what there is consensus to do, can be better seen from an AfD than here. . Mtkings's argument, and Kww's apparent support of it , are about bureaucratic procedure, not the article or the AfD or the deletion review in any substantive sense.
Overturn and relist without prejudice - Sarah's own professional bias may have misled her a little here. No big deal: if you're not overturned EVER, you're probably being too timid for the project's own good. --Orange Mike | Talk21:33, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist. The two deletes may be weak, but that's all there was in the AfD. Sarah should have simply provided her !vote, not !supervote. Demote her closure to a !vote and relist. Tijfo098 (talk) 10:33, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist - The AfD discussion only addressed the sources in the article and not whether there is significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. No consensus would have been the proper close, even though all the AfD positions were delete. The close itself was insufficient, but some of it does carry weight, so we can't overturn to no consensus. I was going to NAC close this DRV as "overturn and relist", but admin SarahStierch's above wasn't clear on what she wanted done and her post above was followed by mixed positions. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 13:47, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like closing admin Sarah's public art scholar instincts were correct:
Siobhan Roberts (February 7, 2004). "Who needs a speed bump when you've got a white elephant? 'One of the practical things it's done is slowed traffic down on the street ? a lot'". Globe and Mail. p. M3.
Kate Harries (May 6, 2004). "Art by the yard; Search for the perfect garden sculpture leads to an odyssey through Ontario's arts community 'We allow for a measure of craziness when it comes to my gardening purchases,' writes Kate Harries". Toronto Star. p. J1. {{cite news}}: |section= ignored (help)
Alana Wilcox (November 30, 2005). The State of the Arts: Living With Culture in Toronto. UTOpia series. Vol. 2. Coach House Books. p. 351. ISBN 155245178X. OCLC699812267.
Overturn and relist I came upon this after stumbling upon Sarahs talk page and I must say that her rational given there strongly suggests that this was more a supervote than an appropriate close. Relisting seems the best course to allow her to put forward the case as a regular !vote. AIRcorn(talk)05:34, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
I was asked off-wiki to come out of hiding and review this deletion discussion. For the same reasons that I consider the IRC discussions to be bad policy and anti-wiki, I declined. Any review of the decision should be conducted here, in the open and subject to the review of the entire community. Having said that, I will respect the privacy wishes of the requestor and make a procedural nomination in his/her name.
As long as I'm opening the DRV nomination, I may as well also share my own review and findings. I am a strong believer that Voting is evil and that XfD closures must be more than mere nose-counting. It can, however, be appropriate to try to summarize the opinions in a contentious debate. This was an ugly debate, poorly formatted and with comments and rebuttals frequently posted out of order. I had to do an edit-by-edit review to really understand the debate.
I find delete opinions offerred by IRWolfie, Steven J. Anderson and William M. Connolley. I find keep opinions offerred by ShowTimeAgain, anon 109.154.26.60, Africangenesis, Pbenken, Cliff482, FurrySings, Ghosts Ghouls and Uzma Gamal. (Gene93k, anon 174.50.64.32 and Dragons flight made procedural edits or comments but did not express a clear opinion either way.)
Four of those arguing to keep the article were suspiciously new accounts. Further, I find evidence of personal attacks, open hostility and bad-faith editing on both sides of the debate. For example, Ghosts Ghouls left a somewhat pejorative comment. IRWolfie blanked the comment entirely. I endorse WP:NPA but 1) redaction should not be executed by a party in the dispute and 2) that means of executing it had the effect of hiding the non-pejorative part of the comment. Blanking was an over-reach and an abuse of WP:NPA. The incivility in this debate and the apparent inability to assume good faith was distressing.
Looking at the merits of the debate, it boils down to a notability question. Several editors argued that the subject fails the general notability standard. Few sources were presented to rebut that assertion. However, GNG suffers from two weaknesses in this case. First, it is subject to "foreigner bias". GNG's inherent reliance on english sources has a known tendency to undercount sources for non-english topics (in this case, a French academic). Second, GNG works poorly for academics generally, hence the existence of Wikipedia:Notability (academics). Several editors argued in the debate that the subject meets criteria 2 and/or 3 of that standard. In particular, evidence was presented allegedly from the subject's estate showing that he was the recient of at "Chevalier in the Ordre des Palmes Academiques". While not perfect evidence, I find the assertion that the image is a forgery to be implausible. If someone wanted to go to that much trouble to forge a document, they would do more and better than that.
Not explicitly stated but argued by implication, the subject met criterion 1 of WP:ACADEMIC through the scholarly citation count. That assertion was disputed but not, in my opinion, debated adequately during the deletion discussion. Oddly, no one appears to have checked the french version of the biography for sources. Several links offered there do appear to support the assumption of notability (at least one interview by mainstream media, for example) though my French is inadequate to be sure.
WilyD finally closed the debate as "delete" on the basis of WP:N and discounting the arguments about WP:ACADEMIC. My tally does not substantiate that closure. Even after throwing out the suspicious accounts, the closest I can get is a "no consensus" decision.
Comment - external canvassing took place here, at a minimum. Any head count is, I think, a lost cause. There's some subsequent suggestion that although he appears to fail WP:N, he may pass WP:ACADEMIC - in the original discussion, I don't think the case was made. The French Wikipedia apparently AfD'd him to no consensus [36], though je sais seulement un peu de francais, alors, I can't really do a straight comparison of their inclusion standards to ours, but it's not clear the keep arguments there would really be sufficient here - it comes across as a subjective argument about how significant a scholar he was.
A lot might hinge on the Golden palm point, which wasn't well discussed, and so pretty up in the air; There are about 7500 people who're such knights appointed annually [37], for what it's worth. WilyD21:11, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The discussion you link to includes a CheckUser assessment that the accounts you complained about were not in fact related. While the possibility of meatpuppetry was not (and can never be) disproven, that discussion does not provide evidence that canvassing occurred at all, much less that it was "extensive". Wikipedia is an open source. Other blogs and forums are allowed to reuse our content (even if we later decide to delete it) and are most explicitly allowed to comment upon our processes. Complaining about a deletion nomination is not the same as asking others to run to Wikipedia to do something about it. Accusations of canvassing are quite serious and should not be made so lightly. Rossami(talk)06:37, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My tally does not substantiate that closure. Even after throwing out the suspicious accounts, the closest I can get is a "no consensus" decision - this makes no sense. It isn't a vote; your tally is irrelevant William M. Connolley (talk) 21:45, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Then let me be more explicit for you. The required standard for deletion is rough consensus among established editors citing policy-based reasons to keep or delete a page. The only policy in question at the AfD was notability and neither those arguing to keep or delete disputed that that was the proper question. The answer turned merely on the balancing of subjective opinions about whether the subject met one or more of the criteria in that policy. Three established editors argued that it did not. Four established editors argued that it did. After throwing out the ad-hominems and irrelevant pejoratives, the weight of argument was in my opinion slightly in favor of deletion but not enough to rise to the level of "rough consensus" as we use the term here at Wikipedia. Others may disagree with that assessment but to say that it "makes no sense" is either to willfully ignore Wikipedia policy and precedent on closing deletion discussions or to be unable to view the debate impartially. Rossami(talk)06:24, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. We allow substantial latitude to closers dealing with irregularities such as external canvassing. I'm not convinced that this close is outside that discretion. T. Canens (talk) 22:39, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse More off-wiki activity I see. This isn't a vote count as you have taken it to be. Secondly, his citation count isn't particularly high. If you had read my rebuttal you would see I countered examples of books with 30 citations with a book with a 1000 citations. The award was for education, are you saying he is a notable as an educator but not as a researcher? Secondly, the award appears to be given to many individuals each year. Ghost ghouls is a blocked sockpuppet ,see where I mentioned the WP:DUCK in removing it: [38]. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:46, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse, precisely per T. Canens. I'd like to address the nominator's mention of the French counterpart to this article; my French is sufficient to check it and its sources, and I can confirm that in my opinion the various claims of notability are a complete load of bollocks. (Addendum: I do accept that he's an academic with a doctorate and that he's published various books. This doesn't make him a significant figure in climatology.)—S MarshallT/C 23:03, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No they don't. They're merely academics who've cited his paper. Do you have any idea how easy it is to write something that academics cite in their papers? I've personally done it several times, and I'm pretty far from notable.—S MarshallT/C 08:08, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, I had to check to see whether any of my papers have been cited in Nature (sadly the answer is no, it was all just MNRAS, ApJ, AJ, and a minor journal or two that I was unfamiliar with.) Since canvassing meant I essentially had to close by arugments alone, I completely discounted the "cited four times in Nature". WilyD08:27, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Different authors felt the need to mention Leroux's Thesis work in their respective Nature papers as a requisite piece of knowledge. Your own academic anecdotes here are irrelevant.ShowTimeAgain (talk) 23:56, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Like many people, I often illustrate a point with an anecdote. You may forget this, but there are real people behind all the screen names here. (And canvassing for citations is an occasional practice among academics, although the canvassing relevant to this discussion only meant that I had to give little to no weight to the !votes at the AfD, and close more by the strength of arguments that I normally would. And "He's been cited four times in Nature" is a terrible argument. Throngs of the unwashed masses have been cited four times in Nature. It just would've been easier to illustrate if I could say I'd been cited four times in Nature.) WilyD05:34, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
WilyD, somehow I do not forget there are real people behind the screen! The work referenced in Nature is a comprehensive thesis on the Climate of Africa published with the support of WMO. This is not a secondary paper. Context is important here.ShowTimeAgain (talk) 14:35, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
InAstronomy and astrophysics, ApJ is the highest ranking of all posszible journals, and MNRAS and AJ are of almost equal prestige. DGG ( talk ) 20:45, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, not really. Nature (and Science) are more highly ranked/prestigious/whatever journals that include significant Astronomy content, although on a "I was cited in" context, I don't see much difference between Nature, Science, ApJ, AJ, MNRAS, A&A, ICARUS, or whoever else. Writing an article - yes. Getting a citation? Whoop di do. WilyD05:29, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Question I did not engage in the previous AfD , & tend to avoid this subject, but has anyone checked for whether there are substantial book reviews for 2 or more of his 3 books, in which case he would meet WP:AUTHOR? In practice it's a much looser criterion than WP:PROF., and very specifically does not require any expertise of any sort in the field in which the person writes, negating most of the delete arguments. DGG ( talk ) 02:39, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment We regularly keep full professors just for being full professors. And we keep people with h-index much lower than this subject. I disagree with such arbitrary criteria, but it is clear to me that they are not being evenly applied here. Gigs (talk) 13:55, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
[44] It says professor on the page for the lab he was the director for. His title of professor is also on the first page of all his peer reviewed papers. Gigs (talk) 14:29, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - Long-winded filing that really doesn't say much of anything. This is a topic area rife with socks, SPAs, and agenda-pushers on all sides, this is just the latest battleground in all that. There is no fault to be found in the closing admin's actions. Tarc (talk) 16:12, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
DO NOT Endorse: for years the page was just being improved to the satisfaction of all concerned. Deletion request was an unprovoked attack. Permanent questioning of certificate authenticity, professional qualifications by an editor who first introduced the derogatory terms "global warming deniers" shows the deletion request was ideologically motivated. Such editing practices are in fact breeding battlegrounds, as if Oxfordians deleted the years when Cambridge won the rowing races and vice versa. This is ludicrous and unfit of the goal of a free encyclopedia.ShowTimeAgain (talk) 00:13, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn - This whole deletion discussion is making Leroux notable as a martyr for climate deniers[45]. Leroux's Global Warming book [46] alone makes him notable. It's still commanding high prices [47]. If it was his only offering, I would say to change the name of the article to be the book title. Yet, there's his textbook which seems to still be in print, and all those citations provided by Africangenesis. Bring back the article. The unpopularity of Leroux's point of view should be seen as a reason to retain, not delete the article. JethroElfman (talk) 06:03, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn From WP:Academic these criteria are to be applied:
Academics/professors meeting any one of the following conditions, as substantiated through reliable sources, are notable. Academics/professors meeting none of these conditions may still be notable if they meet the conditions of WP:BIO or other notability criteria, and the merits of an article on the academic/professor will depend largely on the extent to which it is verifiable. Before applying these criteria, see the General Notes section, which follows.
1. The person's research has made significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources.
Discussion) From google scholar, Leroux has 67 pubs, and 617 citations. His H-index is 9 and his I10-index is 8. Marcel Leroux is far above average, likely in the top 1% of his field. Climate Science wasn't specifically listed, it is a multi-disciplinary field, but for the two closest fields from this reference, the citation threshold for being in the top 1% of scientists is 337 in environment and ecology. In Geosciences it is 538. [49]. It isn't just the number of articles and citations. I think a fair conclusion would be that he was accepted authoritatively as France's if not the world's leading expert on the climate of Northern Africa, France and the Iberian peninsula. His "The Mobile Polar High: a new concept explaining present mechanisms of meridional air-mass and energy exchanges and global propagation of palaeoclimatic changes" appears to be an enduring contribution.
5. The person holds or has held a named chair appointment or "Distinguished Professor" appointment at a major institution of higher education and research (or an equivalent position in countries where named chairs are uncommon).
6. The person has held a highest-level elected or appointed academic post at a major academic institution or major academic society.
Discussion) The fact that he was the director or head of a laboratory can be argued to meet both or either criteria 5 and 6. As was mentioned above, the language barrier makes this difficult for the english wikipedia, it is difficult to even get the name right. In english it would be "Laboratory of Climatology, Risk, and Environment." But in the French "du Laboratoire de Climatologie, Risques, Environnement" or "du Laboratoire de Climatologie, Risques et Environnement" and even some alternate wordings all get hits corresponding to Leroux. Jacques Comby appears to be the current head of the laboratory, or one of its professors.
7. The person has made substantial impact outside academia in their academic capacity.
Discussion) Once again the language barrier comes into play. While he has thousands of hits of blog level criteria, most of his articles in english appear to be invited commentary by him. An argument can be made that the newspaper articles that he is the author of, are notable, because they are not just letters to the editor, but invited commentary, not extended to just anyone. So once again language and cultural differences are a barrier. The French newspapers of the stature of a NY Times or Washington Post or WSJ are not as open, they are paywalled, but I have found several hits which appear to be articles about Leroux or quoting him.
Leroux may well be notable by the general criteria, not just the WP:Academic criteria
An objective review of the history around the AfD, and subsequent attacks on the sandbox, and referenced files, and the failure to reverse despite previous discussion of all this material, leads to the conclusion that the AfD itself was WP:BATTLE. --Africangenesis (talk) 13:52, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm very skeptical of your citation numbers, mainly because there seem to be other academics named "Marcel Leroux" (an engineer, a medical doctor, etc.), and very many people who abbreviate as "M Leroux", so it is difficult to isolate the contributions of this Marcel Leroux from the works of people with similar names. If you have a good way of doing that, please show how. Beyond that, you can't compare Google Scholar times cited to the Incites citation thresholds constructed by Thomson. The Thomson numbers, based on their ISI citation database, are more restrictive about what they count as a citation (i.e. other peer-reviewed academic papers and books in their citation index), and hence will generally be systematically lower than Google counts. For example, Leroux's book: "Global Warming: Myth or Reality" is reportedly cited 102 times according to Google, but the ISI only records 7 academic citations based on their criteria. The MPH paper did alright, 52 citations in ISI (64 in Google), but the next best Leroux paper I can find in ISI is "Evidence of atmosphere paleocirculation..." with 14, and then nothing above 10. In other words, as Thomson would count it I don't think he gets anywhere near their 1% threshold. Dragons flight (talk) 20:04, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please see the appended citation section below. The way I got google scholar to provide the whole tally for me, was by going into some kind of "my citations" mode. It does the tally and outputs in a table format with each article title being a hyperlink to the specific article with a "cited by" hyperlink. Here is that "cited by" hyperlink for the first article [50]. I had to cut and paste and slightly reformat all the information I appended below. Apologies for its relative unreadability.--Africangenesis (talk) 01:48, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. The deletion reviewer judged fairly, in my opinion. Valid objections were brought up about gaping holes in the references, with falsehoods pointed out. The topic clearly failed WP:N, a hard and fast rule. Binksternet (talk) 13:57, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment With a little investigation, I found Leroux to be clearly notable enough not to warrant a pressurised demand for deletion. What's not been highlighted here AFAICT is the fact that there are strong reasons some people here do NOT want Leroux mentioned - because he wrote a whole textbook, in a class of its own, showing how wonky Climate Science has become with its "dangerous manmade warming" memes. Personally I was grateful for the opportunity this fracas afforded, to "meet" Prof Leroux at some depth and to appreciate both his science (the important Mobile Polar High concept that has clearly taken root in Climate Science), his general competence in producing what is still regarded as a classic textbook (Dynamic Analysis of Weather and Climate) and his outspoken defence of decent scientific practice that he (along with other top scientists eg Paul Reiter, Nils-Axel Mörner, Zbigniew Jaworowski, Nobel prizewinner Kary Mullis) saw being trashed with the politicization of Climate Science from the nineties on. Lucy Skywalker (talk) 14:47, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse: DRV is not the place to rehash the AfD discussion. The AfD was closed well within guidelines for dealing with biographies of living persons. Exceptions are made when sources are introduced at DRV that clearly show the subject to be notable. That is not the case here. I have no objection to an article being recreated in suitable reliable sources are found. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 16:19, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
3 errors, new evidence is not a rehash, Marcel Leroux is dead, being in the top 1% for citations in his field is pretty clear, this detail has been established since the closing. --Africangenesis (talk) 07:37, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh FFS, yours and his edits were within 2 minutes of each other, it was likely just an edit conflict. Don't be a drama-monger, just go restore it. Tarc (talk) 01:30, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and restore Notable academic. Notable enough that disagreement with his viewpoint has inspired a desire to delete his bio by others in his field of expertise. He meets enough of the requirements to have his bio included. As such the deletion process was tainted and it should be restored. Notability is not hard to achieve. --DHeyward (talk) 16:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I had to paste this in from a table format web report from google scholar. This time the result is 618 citations, 200 since 2007, h-index 9 overall 6 since 2007, i10 index is 8 overall 5 since 2007. Google scholar did the totaling, I have not independently counted. --Africangenesis (talk) 01:41, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The citations below are in descending order of the number of citations, with the number before the year being the number of citations. Towards the bottom, by the time there is only one citation, the number before the year may be the page number, because for some reason google scholar doesn't put a number there. So that you can see the citation pattern, the first few numbers of citations in descending order are 137, 102, 75, 68, 49, 29, 21
I collapsed the table and moved it to be in chronological order in the discussion to help give a better persective on its influence in the discussion. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 14:37, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Marcel Leroux citation information from google scholar
Count
Citation
137
Le climat de l'Afrique tropicale: The climate of tropical Africa M Leroux Champion 1983
102
Global warming-myth or reality?: the erring ways of climatology M Leroux Springer 2005
75
The meteorology and climate of tropical Africa M Leroux Springer 75 2001
68
The Mobile Polar High: A new concept explaining present mechanisms of meridional air-mass and energy exchanges and global propagation of palaeoclimatic changes M Leroux Global and planetary change 7 (1), 69-93 1993
49
La dynamique du temps et du climat M Leroux Masson 1996
29
Dynamic Analysis of weather and climate: Atmospheric Circulation, Perturbations, Climate Evolution M Leroux JOURNAL OF METEOROLOGY-TROWBRIDGE THEN BRADFORD ON AVON- 24, 39-41 1999
21
La dynamique des précipitations en Afrique occidentale M Leroux ASECNA, Direction de l'exploitation météorologique 1972
17
Evidence of atmospheric paleocirculation over the Gulf of Guinea since the Last Glacial Maximum AM Lezine, JP Tastet, M Leroux Quaternary Research 41 (3), 390-395 1994
9
La dynamique de la grande sécheresse sahélienne/Dynamics of the Great Sahelian Drought M LEROUX Revue de géographie de Lyon 70 (3), 223-2321995
8
L'Anticyclone Mobile Polaire: facteur premier de la climatologie tempérée M Leroux Bull. Assoc. Géogr. Franç., Paris 4, 311-329 1986
8
La dynamique des épisodes neigeux du 8 au 13 décembre 1990 dans la région Rhône-Alpes/The dynamics of the snowfall periods in the Rhône-Alpes region from the 8-13 December 1990 M LEROUX Revue de géographie de Lyon 66 (3), 161-168 1991
7
«Global Warming»: mythe ou réalité L'évolution réelle de la dynamique du temps/Global warming: Myth or Reality? The Actual Evolution of the Weather M Leroux Annales de géographie 111 (624), 115-137 2002
7
La dynamique des situations météorologiques des 21-22 et 26-27 septembre 1992 dans le sud du couloir rhodanien/The dynamics of the meteorological patterns of 21-22 and 26-27 September 1992 in the southern Rhône corridor M LEROUX Revue de géographie de Lyon 68 (2), 139-152 7 1993 Paléométéorologie de la région de Taoudenni M Leroux 1991
7
Les conditions dynamiques moyennes du climat de la France/Mean dynamic conditions of French climate M LEROUX Revue de géographie de Lyon 65 (2), 63-791990
7
La variabilité des précipitations en Afrique occidentale. Les composantes aérologiques du problème M Leroux Veille climatique satellitaire 22, 26-45 1988
7
Climatologie dynamique de l'Afrique M Leroux Travanx et Doctanents de Gdographie tropicale. CNRS 19, 87-112 1975
6
Interprétation météorologique des changements climatiques observés en Afrique depuis 8000 ans M Leroux Climatic change and geomorphology in tropical environments. Roy. Acad ... 1994
6
La saison des pluies 1973 au Sénégal M Leroux Agence pour la securite de la navigation aerienne en Afrique et a Madagascar 1973
5
Séecheresse et dynamique de la circulation dans l’Hemispher Nord M Leroux La secherence en Méediterranéee et dans le pays environnants. Publications ... 1993
5
Déficit pluviométrique hivernal sur la France: autopsie des agglutinations anticycloniques des hivers de 1988 à 1992 M Leroux, S Aubert, J Comby, V Mollica, PP de la Chapelle, J Reynaud Science et changements planétaires/Sécheresse 3 (2), 103-113 1992
4
Climat local, climat global/Local cfimate, global climate M LEROUX Revue de géographie de Lyon 72 (4), 339-345 1997
4
L'anticyclone mobile polaire, relais des échanges méridiens: son importance climatique M Leroux Géodynamique 2 (2), 163-1671987
4
Températures marines et précipitations sur les littoraux de l'Afrique tropicale M Leroux Norois 116 (1), 479-497 1982
4
Processus de formation et d'évolution des lignes de grains de l'Afrique tropicale septentrionale M Leroux Université de Dakar, Faculté des Lettres et Sciences Huamines, Dépt. de ... 4 1976
4
Bulletin de la Societe Geologique de France 166 (3), 247-257 1995 J.-P. Lahuec, B. Guillot, Atlas veille climatique de l'ORSTOM M LEROUX Revue de géographie de Lyon 70 (3), 214-214 1995
4
Meridional air mass transport, anticyclonic agglutinations and tropical desert M Leroux MEMOIRES-SOCIETE GEOLOGIQUE DE FRANCE, 11-24 1995
4
Pollen transport and atmospheric circulation off tropical West Africa during the last deglaciation AM Lezine, M Leroux, JL Turon, G Buchet, JP Tastet MEMOIRES-SOCIETE GEOLOGIQUE DE FRANCE, 33-44 1995
3
Global Warming: Myth or Reality? M Leroux ENERGY AND ENVIRONMENT-BRENTWOOD- 14 (2/3), 297-322 3 2003
3
Les climats subtropicaux dits «méditerranéens» et les climats de la Méditerranée (1re partie) M Leroux L'information géographique 65 (4), 304-320 3 2001
3
Composition isotopique et genèse des précipitations sur Dakar pendant les saisons des pluies 1982 et 1984 Y Travi, JY Gac, E Gibert, M Leroux, JC Fontes Isotope techniques in study of past and current environnemental changes in ... 3 1993
3
Circulation méridienne, agglutinations anticycloniques et déserts tropicaux M LEROUX Mémoires de la Société géologique de France 167, 11-23 1995
3
France's winter rain deficit: autopsy of the anticyclone agglutinations of the winters of 1988 to 1992 M Leroux, S Aubert, J Comby, V Mollica, P Passerat de la Chapelle, J Reynaud Secheresse 3 1992
2
" Global Warming": Myth or Reality? The Actual Evolution of the Weather Dynamics M Leroux Energy & Environment 14 (2), 297-322 2 2003
2
Introduction M LEROUX Revue de géographie de Lyon 66 (3), 138-138 2 1991
2
La spécificité climatique des montagnes sahariennes M Leroux Revue de géographie alpine 79 (1), 23-42 2 1991
2
Déficit pluviométrique hivernal sur la France: autopsie de la situation anticyclonique du 19 décembre 1989 au 25 janvier 1990/The winter rainfall deficiency in France: autopsy of the anticyclonic situation from the 19 December 1989 to the 25 January 1990 M LEROUX Revue de géographie de Lyon 66 (3), 197-206 2 1991
2
L'interface ville/environnement J Bonnet, M Leroux Revue de géographie de Lyon 72 (4), 261-262 1997
2
Sur<< Debat sur le front polaire>> JJ Thillet, A Joly, M Leroux Meteorologie 8 (16), 49-52 1996
2
Le climat de l'Afrique tropicale M LEROUX Asequa. Bulletin de Liaison Dakar-Fann, 33-42 1981
1
Chronique rhodanienne, L'automne pluviométrique 1993 dans le sud du couloir rhodanien M LEROUX Revue de géographie de Lyon 68 (4), 259-263 1 1993
1
Le climat actuel de la région de Taoudenni (Mali) M Leroux 1 1991
?
Dynamics of the Great Sahelian Drought [IME and VME, meridional exchanges, migration of rain-bearing structures, dilatation of the northern meteorological hemisphere] M Leroux Revue de Geogaphie de Lyon 70 1995
?
Aquecimento global: uma impostura científica M Leroux Revista Fusion 2
?
La circulation tropicale et ses conséquences climatiques M Leroux
?
Cahiers d'Outre-Mer 42 (165), 5-28 1 1989 Le champ de vent en altitude en Afrique occidentale et centrale M Leroux, R Garnier
?
Agence pour la sécurité de la navigation aérienne en Afrique et à Madagascar ... 1 1974 Global warming: Myth or reality (Praxis books Environmental sciences) M LEROUX, J COMBY 2005
?
No Global Warming, Because No Global Climate M Leroux 21ST CENTURY SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY 18 (3), 4 2005
?
Le profil des agricultrices et leur implicaiton dans les exploitations agricoles en Région wallonne M Leroux, M Beck, M Lambillon, P Lebailly Nouvelles de l'Hiver (Les) 2005
?
Global warming: myth or reality? The actual evolution of the weather M Leroux Annales de Géographie 111
?
Les climats subtropicaux dits" méditerranéens" et les climats de la Méditerranée (2e partie) M Leroux L'Information géographique 2002
?
Analyse météorologique des pluies torrentielles des 12 et 13 novembre 1999 dans le Languedoc-Roussillon./Meteorological analysis of the torrential rains of the 12 and 13 November 1999 in Languedoc-Roussillon M LEROUX Géocarrefour 75 (3), 179-188 2000
?
Les phénomènes extrêmes récents s' inscrivent-ils dans une évolution perceptible du temps?/Do recent extreme conditions form part of a perceptible change in the weather? M LEROUX Géocarrefour 75 (3), 261-270 2000
?
Volcanic activity and climate M Leroux Bulletin de l'Association de Geographes Francais 76 1999
?
Commentaire sur «Anomalies de température de surface de la mer et précipitations tropicales; synthèse de quelques travaux récents portant sur les précipitations au Sahel et dans le Nordeste» de B. Fontaine, S. Janicot, V. Moron, P. Roucou et S. Trzaska (La Météorologie 8e série, n° 23, septembre 1998, 14-35) M Leroux Société météorologique de France, Paris (FRA) 1999
?
Debat-Commentaire sur Anomalies de temperature de surface de la mer et precipitations tropicales: synthese de quelques travaux recents portant sur les precipitations au Sahel et dans le Nordeste M Leroux Meteorologie 10 (25), 49-50 1999
?
Dynamic analysis of climate atmospheric circulation, perturbations, climatic evolution M LEROUX 1998 Dynamic Analysis of Weather and Climate: Atmospheric Circulation, Perturbations, Climatic Evolution (Hardback)(Series: Wiley-Praxis Series in Atmospheric Physics)
?
M LEROUX 1998
?
La dynamique du temps et du climat M Leroux Natures Sciences Societes 5 (3), 81-81 1997
?
Commentaire sur «Débat sur le front polaire» de J.-J. Thillet et A. Joly (La Météorologie 8e série, n° 12, décembre 1995, 58-67) M Leroux Société météorologique de France, Paris (FRA) 1996
?
Transport pollinique et circulation atmospherique au large de l'Afrique tropicale occidentale au cours de la derniere deglaciation AM Lezine, M Leroux, JL Turon, G Buchet, JP Tastet
?
Editorial: La grande sécheresse sahélienne/Editorial: The Great Sahelian Drought M LEROUX Revue de géographie de Lyon 70 (3), 179-180 1995
?
Les pluies diluviennes et les inondations des 31 octobre et 1er novembre 1993 en Corse; étude descriptive. Authors' reply M LEROUX, JP GIORGETTI, V JACQ, R JOURDAN, JP PALAUQUI, JC RIVRAIN, F BOERI ... Météorologie, 63-70
?
Charles Toupet, Le Sahel M Leroux Revue de géographie de Lyon 68 (2), 110-110 1993
?
L’évolution des pratiques et des modes de vie des exploitants agricoles face à la question du changement climatique. M Leroux
?
La dynamique du temps et du climat (Sciences Sup) 2004 M LEROUX
Overturn The original decision may well have been warranted, based upon the information available at the time, but substantial additional citations have been identified, and the subject is notable.--SPhilbrick(Talk)12:49, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I picked one source, Global warming-myth or reality?: the erring ways of climatology M Leroux Springer 2005. The majority of the citations are not to academic publications, see [52]. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:47, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that we are judging here the quality of the scientific work or publications of Mr. Leroux. What we are doing is trying to assess whether he was "notable" enough to deserve an entry in WP. The fact that he has published a few books, which are still in print, and have been cited in the works of other, makes him notable, independently of the scientific quality of his work. Udippuy (talk) 18:01, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If he's an academic we expect the citations to be from other academics in his field. His books are not well cited. The entire reason we were looking at the citations was because of this criteria of WP:ACADEMIC: 1. The person's research has made significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources.IRWolfie- (talk) 18:10, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is the measure we have. Notice that for each publication, google scholar orders those citing it by their number of citations. His tropical Africa climate stuff is rock solid in that regard. Perhaps accumulating the number of 2nd generation citations would be a good idea, but then we would need statistics to understand the meaning of those, right now, with the measure we have, he is in the top 1%, there is no reason to think he wouldn't be under a better measure.--Africangenesis (talk) 18:29, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Another thing on the plus side as far as citation count is that almost all his citations are for works where he is the primary author. Many scientists citations are inflated by being added on as an author while having contributed very little, perhaps just because they were the head of the department that had an established name or connections.--Africangenesis (talk) 19:01, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
IRWolfie, you're focusing on just one of the several conditions that can justify the notability under WP:Academic. My feeling is that while Leroux ranks low in the various different WP:Academic conditions (he was a respected academic, but not an internationally recognized genius; he published some important works, but not recently- however he wrote climatology manuals that are still published in English after his death; he took part in the public debate about global warming, although only with a small echo in the english speaking world) he's still important and notable enough to deserve an entry in a serious encyclopedia.Udippuy (talk) 19:40, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding, please correct me if I am wrong, is that subject specific criteria are used to supplement, not replace the GNG. The rationale being that the GNG guidelines might be too, well, general for some classes of people or topics, and better to identify subject specific wording, rather than try to write GNG in a way to cover the universe. For example, academics are supposed to produce academic articles, which may be primary material rather than secondary. We don't want to exclude academics, who because of their field, may be well-respected in their community, yet not have substantial mention in secondary sources. Consequently, the Academic guideline "counts" material that might otherwise not strictly meet the requirements of GNG. However, it shouldn't be used to exclude material that doesn't meet the narrow focus of Academic. Thus, I find your implicit exclusion of citations that are "not to academic publications" misplaced.--SPhilbrick(Talk)18:54, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The argument is self defeating, if he doesn't have a large number citations to academic publications, then that's a sign that he is not well respected in his academic community particularly more than others in his field. Thus he fails ACADEMIC. GNG has never been met. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:33, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to keep I consider him relatively marginal for a scientist, but clearly above the line. But he was a full professor at a major university, and we have generally accepted that as indicating the judgment of his colleagues for notability. The exceptions have been when there is a special reason, such as being in a field like education about which there are some doubts here concerning the quality of work in the subject. There is a special reason here too, and I haven noticed it before, and I will not let it pass without comment. If he were a supporter of the present consensus on global warming, or had worked on some unrelated subject with a similar academic record, I doubt there would have been a serious challenge to the article. Now, I think climate change denial a heading of one's head in the sand, either for motive of greed or perversity, or just persistence in misunderstanding. While I accept the possibility of well-intentioned academic skeptics, I approach their results expecting to see what is wrong with them. As compared to anti-evolutionism, it's not as patently stupid, but much more dangerous. I therefore judge that when a situation comes here where my view might be biased, to actively try to resist it, and for a scientific maverick of any sort whatsoever, I will say notable if it is possible to do so. Some miscellaneous comments I thing should not pass without comment: 1 that he had not published important works recently--notability in the past is still notability 2 that [53] above is the sort of edit conflict that I or most people would have immediately noticed and immediately corrected. 3 the argument that a b ook being reprinted is not secondary evidence for notability because he wrote the book & therefor its a primary source ignores the fact that it is the publisher, not the author, who thought it would sell well enough to be worth the investment-- it's like saying that best seller status does not indicate notability for both the book & the author. 4 The continued use of a some of his works as textbooks seems to be ignored--its one of WP:PROF basic standards. 5 I really deplore the personal attacks by the supporter of the article, but I can see how he was pushed into them by the insistence of some of the opposers in ignoring the basic evidence and in using mush stricter standards than we generally use. He apparently thinks people here are prejudiced against him. I know the attempt of the scientific to not just refute, but suppress false theories is based on the extensive irrational opposition by the ignorant and prejudiced against valid work, but counter-bias does not excuse bias. DGG ( talk ) 21:38, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Professors are not typically notable, WP:ACADEMIC clarifies this: "The person holds or has held a named chair appointment or "Distinguished Professor" appointment at a major institution of higher education and research (or an equivalent position in countries where named chairs are uncommon). ... Major institutions, for these purposes, are those that have a reputation for excellence or selectivity. Named chairs at other institutions are not necessarily sufficient to establish notability." Being a professor at Jean Moulin University Lyon 3 isn't comparable to being a named chair at Oxford for example. When has having a book being republished every been a sign of notability; you haven't shown that criterion 4 was met which says: "Criterion 4 may be satisfied, for example, if the person has authored several books that are widely used as textbooks (or as a basis for a course) at multiple institutions of higher education." Having 30 citations doesn't mean it's widely used. I've shown examples with 1000 citations for a book (by an academic who doesn't have an article). If you are a climate change denial scientist, you are more likely to have an article on wikipedia because there are POV pushers willing to make it and push for it. Most academics of a similar level don't get mentioned (for example there are numerous professors and lecturers at my university who meet the low requirements here). IRWolfie- (talk) 09:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
IRWolfie, WP:ACADEMIC explains:
"The criteria above are sometimes summed up in an "Average Professor Test". Put simply: when judged against the average impact of a researcher in his or her field, does this researcher stand out as clearly more notable or more accomplished than others in the field?"
A professor who is in the top 1% in citations, clearly stands out and is obviously not "average". This does not mean there are not a lot of professors in the world, so there may be plenty of others in the top 1% who have particularly well reference papers. In physics it takes over 2000 citations to be in the top 1%, but WP:ACADEMIC notes that the criteria very greatly by field, I reported the criteria for field's closest to Leroux's. He meets other criteria also.--Africangenesis (talk) 10:45, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, DF didn't know how to do the scholar google search, I have posted the appended citations showing the publications and citations since then. He hasn't questioned those.--Africangenesis (talk) 14:26, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn I made no comments on this AfD at all in any venue - but find the blanket finding of "fails notability" in the face of substantial mentions in reliable sources to be inadequate. Wikipedia is surely big enough to have biographies of "dastardly people", and I see no reason why it is not reasonable to retain this person's BDP. Collect (talk) 13:19, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
DRV is not the place for extended arguments - but one book was given a long review in BAMS which described Leroux as "professor emeritus of climatology in Lyon, France". His theories may be wrong, but Wikipedia does not have a "biographies of people who are notable but wrong do not belong." [54]. In fact, many folks who are completely wrong have Wikipedia articles. Need more? I rather thought you would find BAMS to be a WP:RS for such purposes. It is, moreover. clear that the reviewer (Michael A. Fortune - I think you knew him perhaps?) felt Leroux was notable, and worthy of more than an en passant review. Collect (talk) 14:34, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
One book review is now inflated to "substantial mentions in reliable sources"? "Need more?" - yes, certainly we need more. Wikipedia is surely big enough to have biographies of "dastardly people" - this is a strawman, because no-one has proposed that as a reason for deletion William M. Connolley (talk) 14:45, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
BAMS would seem to be a pretty good source - and the review is extended. One editor, for some outre reason, suggested I am here because of "global warming" - an area is which I have a minuscule interest. I am here only because of the criteria for "notability" being seen to be misapplied on Wikipedia. We have people who are "notable" for "penis size" for goodness sake! Yet where we have a person with multiple books published by reliable source publishers (not best-sellers at a $300 price tag from Springer), we seem to think that such books and articles are insufficient? As I said - the man could be Satan incarnate, but as far as I can tell he is sufficiently notable to have his biography on Wikipedia. I found the suggestion that we could have an article about his writings <g> but not one of the person himself to be an interesting proposal, indeed. I rather think that takes the cake for "logic" here <g>. We have many articles on Lyndon LaRouche and other folks who are "wrong" in this world - there is little reason in "the sum of human knowledge" to excise an article on a person who is as notable as Leroux certainly appears to be. And if he were a Scientologist, my opinion would be the same. Collect (talk) 18:46, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is another straw man argument. The reason for deletion was not that he was wrong, but that he is not notable, he doesn't meet GNG, he doesn't meet ACADEMIC. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:26, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - Consensus was clear that there is not enough coverage in reliable sources that are independent of Marcel Leroux to maintain a stand alone article that covers an account of Leroux's life as a topic. However, from the "Marcel Leroux citation information from google scholar" list below and other references brought out during the AfD, it seem clear that there is enough coverage in reliable sources that are independent of Marcel Leroux to maintain a stand alone article that covers an account of Leroux's writings as a topic. Feel free to post a Writings of Marcel Leroux article. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 14:31, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to have missed the fact that 618 citations put Leroux in the top 1% of scientists the top 1% threshold is 337 in environment and ecology. In Geosciences it is 538.[55].--Africangenesis (talk) 15:13, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Can you address Dragons flight's point that ISI 'are more restrictive about what they count as a citation' than Google scholar? If ISI and Google scholar employ different standards, you are comparing apples and oranges. - MrOllie (talk) 15:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. By Google count, I'm apparently twice as notable as Leroux, and I have ten times more citations than I need to be in the top 1% (which in computer science apparently has a limit of 123). But Google is notoriously generous. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:34, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's not the 618 quantity of citations that are important. Rather, it is the quantity of prose attached to the 618 citations that may count towards WP:GNG. Since those reliable sources are not writing an account of Leroux's life, they don't support a biography of Marcel Leroux topic. The Marcel Leroux article is the wrong way to present the reliable source information on Marcel Leroux. A Writings of Marcel Leroux topic would be a better approach once the deletion of Marcel Leroux is endorsed at DRV. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 12:46, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
nonsense. utter nonsense, consistently rejected in all applicable cases. Scientists are notable for their work, not their life, just as artists for their art, or athletes for their athletics. We have no hesitation in keeping articles on athletes about whom we know nothing whatever except their name & athletic records, nor composers about whom we know nothing whatever except their compositions, or generals about whom we know nothing except their victories, or politicians about whom we know nothing except that they won an election. In many such cases we don't even know the birth dates or death dates. Normally, unless the person is so famous that people do want to know about the details of their life, we even remove from articles minor aspects of their biography not connected with notability. The only two exceptions I can think of is members of royal houses who are notable for their mere existence and society figures who are noted for for the personal details of their life being widely reported. (And in each such case there are usually objections). People otherwise are notable for something, and it's that which needs to be demonstrated. DGG ( talk ) 22:32, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. For goodness' sake, people, the box at the top of this page says explicitly that DRV should not be used "because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment". The consensus was clear that this individual doesn't meet the notability threshold; let the decision stand. Prioryman (talk) 23:32, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Am I going blind? I can't see any evidence that the subject article was ever nominated for deletion. It seems to have been mentioned in that AfD as a redirect target only.—If my reading of the AfD is correct and it was never even nominated at AfD, then there may just possibly have been a tiny little procedural mistake here, and we'll be wanting to overturn accordingly.—S MarshallT/C 00:08, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like the admin wasn't contacted. I've done so. It does look like an error (easy to make given the nature of that mass-nom). Anthony, in general it's a really good idea to contact the deleting admin first. This type of case is a good example why DRV asks that people talk to the deleting admin first--simple errors are best (and most quickly) handled by one that made them. Hobit (talk) 01:09, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Trout deleting admin er.... that would be me... This looks like a script error, I probably used twinkle to mass delete and didn't realise that one was a proposed redirect target. I'm no longer tooled up but maybe some kind passing admin will do the honours on my behalf. If that doesn't happen quickly, I'll go get the tools back and do it myself. Sorry for the mistake. SpartazHumbug!04:44, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The article didn't had any refs when it was nominated and during the first three votes at the AfD. I added three references to the article ([56], [57], [58]) from Times of India, India's largest National Newspaper. Then I voted 'Keep' in the AfD. The AfD was closed and the article has been deleted. I contacted the closing admin Mark Arsten and asked for a relisting. The admin asked me to ping the three other voters to ask whether they would change their opinion. I did, but unfortunately none of the three voters have replied to my message. I am not saying that the admin's action is wrong. I respect Mark Arsten for their actions and their reply to me. I just wanted an uninvolved admin's opinion on whether the article satisfies notability with the three references that I added. Anbu121 (talk me) 11:13, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Restore and relist or overturn The coverage in an international newspaper should have had an impact on the AfD, but was undiscussed. She appears to be notable to me. Note Churn and Change's comment "No notability to be covered in reliable sources". That delete !vote was completely countered by the reference listing. Schmidt's argument was that she was still going to make her acting debut so it was too soon. She may not be notable under the various actor specific criteria, but coverage in national newspapers shows that she may meet WP:GNG so too soon would not be relevant. The nom and the per-nom arguments were based on WP:ENT which it seems like she did not meet, but this is still unimportant if she meets WP:GNG. RyanVesey14:43, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of the 5 mentions above, we have two independent publishers. All three of the first 3 references are statements by her or her sister. The remaining two, in the second publication, are one-line statements of the fact she is the lead in such and such film. There isn't enough coverage for an article, most likely because no film has been released. We do have a WP:ENTERTAINER section for notability, but that doesn't hold for somebody whose work hasn't been released yet. Coverage isn't enough to establish notability, it has to be significant enough that pulling together the stuff is enough for at least a stub-class article. If we take out her own and her sister's statements, there is practically only one line left. Churn and change (talk) 19:51, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see notability just in this one. India's largest national newspaper did a one on one interview with her. They have clearly determined that she is notable. Wikipedia doesn't determine notability on its own, we base our determination on whether or not we can show that other sources have determined someone to be notable. In this case the Times of India has. RyanVesey20:00, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, no, we don't consider a subject notable because newspapers consider her notable. A subject is notable if there is enough sourced material about her. Why not just wait till the film is released? We are not a newspaper. Churn and change (talk) 20:37, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I think I closed the discussion correctly given consensus and all. In addition, the sources that have come to light are pretty brief, and they seem to hinge on her relation to more well-known figures. Given that we're talking about a BLP of a 15-year-old, I'd prefer to wait until she makes an acting debut or otherwise accomplishes something more than being related to people in the film industry before restoring the article. I'm sure she will be notable, but it's premature at this point. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:13, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and Relist (if still deemed non-notable) The closing admin did consider the discussion. The problem is that the discussion reflected the state of the article before the sources were added to the article, and the sources added are reliable and verifiable sources that establish notability. The closing admin's discussion here is far more thoughtful than the perfunctory statement that "The result was delete" given at AfD, but it does not appear that any of thought was given when the AfD was closed that proper consideration had been given to the sources that had been added to the article and whether they established notability. Multiple reliable and verifiable sources such as those added to the article establishing notability trump an infinite number of votes stating "not notable" that had been cast before those sources were added. If after the deletion is overturned and the article is restored an editor still believes that notability has not been established it may be relisted, but that seems to be unjustified. Alansohn (talk) 20:32, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Mark Arsten erred in his assessment of the consensus, but given the new sources since the first three !votes, a relist isn't an unreasonable outcome.—S MarshallT/C 22:40, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It is one thing to close a defective AfD discussion without an explanation. It is another to not have an explanation when asked, and to push back on the editor requesting the explanation.
Now that an explanation has been offered in this DRV, the picture becomes more clear that the AfD has not been properly analyzed, and that the close is based on personal opinion supported by (valid) WP:IAR arguments.
Analysis of the !votes
The nomination is an argument from WP:ATA, and as previously alluded to in this DRV, WP:ENT is only applicable to catch special cases of notability that are not covered in WP:GNG. No evidence was offered by the nomination. It would have been within reason to Speedy Close WP:NPASR this AfD on September 26 to allow preparation of a proper deletion argument.
The first !vote is also an argument from WP:ATA, and a !vote that cannot be refuted with reason, because nothing has been said to be refuted. Given the absence of comment that this was a !vote with zero weight, and given the personal opinion of the closing admin, and given the statement "consensus and all"; the inference is that the closing admin has weighed this !vote with bias.
The second !vote presents a solid argument.
It has already been noted in this DRV discussion that the last delete !vote was refuted by the subsequent evidence.
The corollary to the point that new evidence was cited, is that the new evidence has refutations. Root cause analysis of why the community is now involved in this discussion is that the closing admin did not explain to the petitioner why these sources are not adequate.
So while the closing administrator's explanation asserts to be based on "consensus and all" (what is "and all"), this so-called consensus is vote counting. What we have is that the closing admin has used this DRV to make an AfD !vote (one with which I agree), and we are now participating in AfD2. Unscintillating (talk) 14:32, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, without prejudice to recreation when it is not "TOO SOON" The five sources provided confirm the argument of WP:Too soon, as backed up by the policy WP:What Wikipedia is NOT. Note that interviews (see [61]) only make a limited contribution to notability. Also note that the sources do not agree on the name of the topic (Thulasi vs. Tulsi). Also note that WP:N states, "A topic is presumed to merit an article if it meets the general notability guideline below, and is not excluded under What Wikipedia is not" (emphasis added). Unscintillating (talk) 14:32, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean by "[[WP:Too soon]], as backed up by the policy [[WP:GOSSIP|WP:What Wikipedia is NOT]]"?? Articles in national newspapers are not gossips. --Anbu121 (talk me) 14:58, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
www.m-w.com "gossip" 2b is "a chatty talk". So by that I mean that the sources are to some extent filling space with ephemeral talk about future events, material that fails WP:NOT. There are other applicable points in WP:NOT, and I've removed the internal link to WP:GOSSIP. As per Wikipedia:Up and coming next big thing, WP:CRYSTAL is applicable. To the extent that these newspaper articles are promoting the future films, WP:NOT#PROMOTION is applicable. An editor above has noted WP:NOT#NEWSPAPER. WP:IINFO is applicable in that we don't cover every little scrap of information available in the universe. There is no deadline at Wikipedia, so if this actress is going to be notable, we can wait until this happens. Unscintillating (talk) 16:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I will reply to your arguments one by one:
Wikipedia:Up and coming next big thing talks about people who are not notable but who is believed to become notable in the future. The actress here is already notable as per WP:GNG by virtue of the five references in National newspapers. Hence not applicable
WP:CRYSTAL talks about unverifiable speculation and future events. Please note that the subject of this article is not the film, its the actress. The film might be a future event, but the existence of the actress is unquestionable. Hence not applicable
WP:NOT#PROMOTION is for preventing the content of an article being in a promotional tone. How does the fact that Newspapers promoting the film affect the tone of this article?
WP:NOT#NEWSPAPER mostly talks about events. The references here cover mainly the actress, not only the event.
I especially liked the riposte that since the topic is notable, evidence that the topic is not notable is "not applicable". That's circular logic. In the context, it is also denial of the basic relationship between WP:N and WP:NOT, which I have already quoted and bolded. Unscintillating (talk) 21:01, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The redirect should not have been deleted, as the topic is already covered in the encyclopedia at Radha (actress). As for whether or not the edit history should have been deleted, non-admin editors cannot see the edit history, so it is not possible to DRV-review the deletion of the edit history. Unscintillating (talk) 16:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Restore and relist, as some reliable sources were offered but not properly analyzed in the afd discussion; as these sources appear to reasonably suggest a possible notability, they could (and should) be discussed in its proper place. Cavarrone (talk) 19:06, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
relist given the nature of the discussion (with one source provided at the end) I think relisting might have been the best call at the time, but deletion wasn't unreasonable especially given it was an underage BLP. But with the additional sources in the AfD I assume it would have been a clear relist. Hobit (talk) 01:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to No Consensus WP:NPASR or Overturn to Redirect WP:IAR WP:NPASR There was not an adequate deletion argument at the first AfD, and we don't need a procedural nomination that again fails to analyze the alternatives to deletion. Given that we already know that this topic is covered in the encyclopedia, the only deletion issue to be discussed in a relist is whether or not the edit history should be deleted. And if there is no editor willing to make that argument in an AfD nomination, what is needed is ordinary editing. IMO the ordinary editing needed is a bold Redirect. It is simpler (WP:IAR) to do the redirect out of this DRV, and if anyone wants to discuss deletion of the edit-history, they can take the case to RfD. Unscintillating (talk) 02:54, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist. The closer clearly erred in failing to relist the discussion to allow for actual analysis of the sources provided late in the discussion. T. Canens (talk) 22:52, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to Keep Adding sources to the article invalidated any !votes predicated on a lack of sourcing. If an admin is going to close a discussion, it is incumbent upon that admin to verify which !votes are policy-based, which includes being reality-based. An opinion that, even if correct when placed in a discussion, is later at frank odds with the reality of the article, should be given "appropriate" weight--that is, none at all. Jclemens (talk) 02:54, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Policy says interviews are primary sources (WP:PRIMARY footnote 3). WP:GNG, a guideline, says notability is based on secondary sources. WP:NOR, which is policy, says notability requires secondary sources, though primary sources can be used in an article. We typically allow primary sources initially to support an article, on the assumption secondary sources would later cover the subject, that way bringing the article in line with policy. That boils down to deciding if notability is likely temporary. During the first discussion that seemed the case. However, I am changing my vote since I came across a new piece of information, a promised role in another film, in a reliable source. The source is still considered primary by WP, but likely notability in the future is, I think, now more firmly established. Churn and change (talk) 16:52, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Looks like she just got a second offer, and that has been mentioned in another source: here. The source is credible per Forbes India. The Forbes article is very negative on the company's financial management, but does mention it is a credible newspaper. Churn and change (talk) 16:52, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse and leave deleted. The source mentions are fairly trivial (I would not even call them articles) and we can easily revisit then when and if the film ever gets made. There is no hurry, especially considering the age of the individual. --regentspark (comment) 17:22, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing. All I was saying, badly, was that there is plenty of time for a young person to become notable enough for inclusion on Wikipedia. Given the kinds of references I'm seeing, she isn't there yet. --regentspark (comment) 18:16, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
File was deleted with absolutely no discussion or prior warning. It seems like the administrator (User:Explicit) is abusing his/her power. The file was deleted for Wikipedia:CSD#F7 for violating Wikipedia:NFCC#1 which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The file was a low-resolution screenshot of a YouTube video used in one article (linked above), and was used in a perfectly viable context where it contributed to the article. As Wikipedia:NFCC#1 states, "Can this non-free content be replaced by a free version that has the same effect?" The answer is simply, no. Any other low-resolution screenshot would also be non-free content. Seeing as the specific section the file was in is Jay_Park_videography#YouTube, a screenshot of a notable YouTube video cannot be substituted with text. Just unknown (talk) 13:33, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Since admin Skier Dude kepted the reduced image supplied on 18 May 2012,[62] either this was not the most obvious case of speedy deletion or not all of its revisions were also eligible as required by Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion. User talk:Dogwalkerz received a "Template:di-replaceable fair use-notice" notice on 03:41, 3 October 2012[63] and the image was deleted deleted 2 days after the notification at 00:19, 6 October 2012[64] The "Template:di-replaceable fair use-notice" says that Dogwalkerz had uploaded the image, but the records seem to indicate that the image had been there as a "Reduce supplied" since 18 May 2012.[65] Not sure what is going on. Did Dogwalkerz upload a file using a name of a file deleted on 18 May 2012 or had the image been there since admin Skier Dude left it there on 18 May 2012? In any event, the Wikipedia:CSD#F7 deletion can't be reviewed without seeing the fair-use tag used to determine whether it was invalid. Please restore the image for this DRV discussion. Just unknown, would you mind providing a link to the Wikipedia reliable source discussing this screenshot? Thanks. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 01:50, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - What exactly do you mean? The image was used here Jay_Park_videography#YouTube as the image itself was a reduced image of perhaps the most notable YouTube video Park has been in and thus is quite a nice addition to this section. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv7SUncOAAQ and of course there are countless sources of why this particular video is important in Park's history but that's for another matter I guess. If I remember correctly, Dogwalkerz uploaded a high resolution image (which does not comply with fair-use tag), and then a low resolution image shortly after. The higher resolution image correctly deleted by admin Skier Dude, and there had been no problems since. Very frustrating. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Just unknown (talk • contribs) 12:46, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The video wasn't used in the Wikipedia article, a screen shot was. Is there Wikipedia reliable source that discusses identification and critical commentary in the context of the screen shot used in the article? Wikipedia stands out from the rest of the internet by publishing articles based on coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject (in this case, independent of Jay Park). -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 03:01, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse as deleting administrator. This was a simple screenshot of the video linked above at around the 1:20 mark. It shows Jay Park, Ryan Higa, and Philip Wang of Wong Fu Productions sitting in a car. That's it. This screenshot was not subject to critical commentary, it easily failed point one of WP:NFCC: "Could the subject be adequately conveyed by properly sourced text without using the non-free content at all?" The answer here is obviously yes. Just unknown's claim that "there are countless sources of why this particular video is important in Park's history" is, just like the paragraph regarding this topic in the article, entirely unsourced, if not flat-out original research. On an unrelated note, I'm not fond of being accused of abusing my adminstrative tools simply because someone doesn't agree with my deletion. Talk about bad faith. — ξxplicit23:52, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy close. I stopped reading the nomination after the second sentence. DRV is not a platform for launching entirely unfounded allegations of admin abuse. T. Canens (talk) 11:22, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - This admin has been mass-deleting images left, right, and center. It is not an admin's job to go out of their way to find a obscure reason to delete an image. Just unknown (talk) 16:23, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Keep deleted As a general rule I support very few templates that add external links, as they encourage EL favoritism which can lead to an overproliferation of a certain link and even outright spamming. If this is overturned on procedural reasons I would support a renomination on these grounds. ThemFromSpace14:38, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your opposition against overprofileration and spamming may be reasonable. But in dewiki this EL is mainly used as source (I assume in enwiki it's similar but I actually haven't proved it). Since Wikipedia does not prevent pages for less famous athletes there's often no alternative as source. So the EL can't be passed and it's a good practice to encapsulate frequent external links using a template to be prepared for changes of URL (as happened recently).--Cactus26 (talk) 09:17, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep deleted - The template is used in the External Links section as in *{{Playerhistory|id=1721}}. The reasons listed in the TfD discussion[67] were 1. "There is no such website as Playerhistory.com any longer due to technical problems, so there is no use for this template as all it does is create links to dead pages." 2. "redundant". I'm not sure what the redundant argument was about, but there is no such website as Playerhistory.com.[68]. So, the reasons for deletion have not been overcome. The DRV request failed to list any URL as being the new URL for the website, so that can't be evaluated and the term Playerhistory fails to identify any particular game or sport to which it applies. From the TfD, it appears that the website keeps getting taken down. If that is for copyright reasons, then there's no reason Wikipedia would want to support that by linking to the website. Wikipedia has other cite templates that can be used (e.g., Template:Cite web) if needed. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 14:01, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Did you discuss this with the deleting admin, User:RHaworth? I didn't see any discussion on his talk page just a notice of this review. If the deletion was made in error, he may be happy to restore the deleted versions. Eluchil404 (talk) 08:16, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Do nothing, and speedy close as a waste of time. There's nothing useful in the deleted revisions (basically the nom and Richhoncho (talk· contribs) edit warring over whether the redirect should be added to Category:Lists of songs by recording artists, which they were still doing after the deletion), and both the speedy deletion and this DRV seems to be an outgrowth of this utterly silly edit war (I'd have blocked them both had they not stopped edit warring a few days ago). I'm not really opposed to restoring it, but I do not think we should condone such a utterly pointless waste of our time. T. Canens (talk) 05:06, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, but I think it more important to not condone a pointy waste of everyone's time of DRV when the nominator did not even bother asking the deleting admin. T. Canens (talk) 23:55, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I question the trustworthiness of the deleting admin, as the deletion could not have been made in err, and chose a side in the "edit war". 117Avenue (talk) 05:45, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please accept my apologies for making these comments. 117Avenue was NOT the author of the page deleted, I was the author when I inadvertently moved List of HM songs to List of songs recorded by HM. 117Avenue has recreated the page in any case without recourse to the deletion review. Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 09:13, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
I attempted to contact the person who made the deletion, User:Orangemike, but he did not respond. Another admin there told me to re-write the article, which I did. No response. I followed the procedures at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion, but they told me the person responsible was not Orangemike, but someone else I attempted to contact the deleting administrator, User:Seicer but he has retired. I was told to appeal here. This process is Byzantine, and my frustration is growing. Edgar Vekilnik, Jr. (talk) 01:41, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Allow the draft to be moved into the main space - original deletion discussion was closed properly, the G4 appears proper, but the new article appears to satisfy WP:N, and is certainly not a re-creation of the previously deleted article, and successfully addresses the concerns of the original AfD. WilyD08:02, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A definition belongs on Wiktionary, since the word's well-attested by those sources. We need a soft redirect to that. But, beyond the bare definition, what is there to write in an encyclopaedia article? To quote one of the article's sources, "Attempts to add trypophobia to the Oxford English Dictionary and even to establish a Wikipedia page have been rebuffed because there hasn’t been any research published on the subject." Which is right: we can't have an article on a psychology topic where there's been no psychological research published.—S MarshallT/C 11:24, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not true. Plenty of WP articles on psychology topics with less research than Trypophobia. In fact, the vast majority of phobia articles have less research, eg: Ablutophobia, Agraphobia, Aichmophobia, Anthophobia,just to list a few of the phobias that begin with A. Are you suggesting that all these phobias be reduced to dictionary redirects? The rejection by WP you mentioned happened years ago, notability is now established, see the mockup: User:Vkil/Trypophobia. Thanks, Edgar Vekilnik, Jr. (talk) 13:00, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes: all of those need to be converted to wiktionary redirects because they consist of nothing but a definition, and Wikipedia isn't a dictionary. Notability isn't the issue here. Lack of published research is the issue. You can counter this, of course, by linking to or citing any piece of published credible research that's specifically about Trypophobia.—S MarshallT/C 13:36, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Allow the draft to be moved into the main space - The only thing you need to do at this point to have an article in article space on Trypophobia is either 1) overcome the reasons for deletion or 2) present significant new information has come to light since a deletion as a basis for allowing an article be recreated. The AfD noted: It's a thing made up, likely hoax, Non-notable, nonsense. The draft at User:Vkil/Trypophobia overcomes the It's a thing made up, likely hoax, and nonsense AfD arguments. As for Non-notable (doesn't meet WP:GNG), the draft at User:Vkil/Trypophobia contains significant new information has come to light since the 11 March 2009 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Trypophobia. --> Allow draft to be moved into article space. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 05:28, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Flat Bastion Road – No consensus to overturn, relist at AfD. There's no consensus here to overturn the original close, but given the serious concerns raised about the previous AfD discussion, I'm going to relist this on closer's discretion. – T. Canens (talk) 03:08, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
This will seem at first glance to be a rather ridiculous request, but please bear with me. The votecount at the AfD was quite clear, that as such is not the problem. The issue is that the article that people !voted on was a travesty, and that very serious defects with it were seemingly deliberately ignored by the different editors who expanded the page and voted to keep it in the AfD. You can compare the article as voted on, and how it should have looked like with all duplicate, unreliable, irrelevant, or plainly incorrect information removed here.
The article at AfD was expanded to have 32 sources, covering a wide range of issues and historical information. When you would remove the sources that were misinterpreted or not about the subject at all, you are left with only 13 of the 32 sources though, and even among those, most are passing mentions only.
People wanting to keep the article mainly stated that it was a "major road" with an article with "verifiable geographical information" that "presents interesting historical facts" and that is "discussing the history of a road which is not routine". Apart from the fact that it presents some verifiable geographical information (which does of course nothing towards notability), this is all correct when you take the article at face value (or help to make it look like all this is true), but nonsense when you only retain the correct and verifiable information. Despite this being pointed out during the AfD, both in the AfD and at the talk page of the article, no one defending the article made any effort to either clean up the article or to discuss the issues, pointing out where those objections were wrong.
On the other hand, a number of uninvolved editors agreed with my assessment, and even the creator of the article, who started the AfD by claiming that it is "one of the major roads of Gibraltar", now agrees that "Fram, I believe you do have a valid point about how notable the road actually is (I had confused it with Europa Road when I started it) and a point that some of the sources don't discuss the road in detail and are only indirectly connected,"[69].
So while by pure votecount or superficial reading this may seem a very clearcut AfD, in reality it is an extremely flawed one: to let this one stand would mean that people can "save" articles by expanding it with serious-looking but actually unrelated sources (in this case e.g. "confusing" Flat Bastion Road with Flat Bastion, giving the road an additional 5 centuries of history and an important role in the military history of Gibraltar, both of which are not supported by the sources at all and completely unverifiable). An AfD should be based on a) a correct article and b) correct other sources, not on fabrications, and a closing admin should take this into account and refuse to reward the people who made such a travesty. The AfD should be closed as being invalid, the article rewritten to a verifiable, correct representation of the road, and a new AfD started on that basis only.Fram (talk) 10:18, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Flat Bastion Road is not as notable as Europa Road no, but I'm content to have an article on it. But if there is false information in the article it should be removed by somebody.♦ Dr. Blofeld10:51, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
AfD comments by me were not based on the article content, but on the available sources to write the article. If there is factually incorrect information, it should be removed from the article, but that does not void the AfD because comments were based on notability of the road based on available sources or likely to be available sources, not what is in the article. What the original creator of the article says is irrelevant because they do not own the article. As I understand article deletion policy, their voices carry no special weight over that of other contributors. --LauraHale (talk) 11:11, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yet you stated in the AfD "Hundreds of years of history." I asked you then, and do so again now: on what sources did you base that statement? Fram (talk) 12:05, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, you were the one adding the most blatantly incorrect information ([70]). You e.g. state that " In 1704, the road was known as Santa Cruz y plataforma de Santiago.", while the source says "Santa Cruz y plataforma de Santiago, despues conocida como Flat Bastion", i.e. "Afterwards known as Flat Bastion". So not "as Flat Bastion Road", like your edit claimed. This could have been a simple error, if not for the fact that every single statement in that section has the exact same error. Fram (talk) 12:23, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Laura, that's not what I'm saying. Fram implies here and on Mark Arsten's tlak page that the article contains false, misleading information. I am not claiming anything and could not care enough about the article to even consider WP:OWN. From what I saw you and Anne did a great job expanding it, but Fram says you didn't and there is superfluous information which is not about the road but passed off as such. I don't agree that the AFD was invalid or should be restarted, but if there is any factual inaccuracy it really does need fixing. Perhaps Fram you could identify the sources and sections which you say are particularly problematic and somebody can look into this further? ♦ Dr. Blofeld11:24, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I did not find it hard to identify problematic phrases and sections in that article, Dr Blofeld. I do think Fram has a point here. I don't have any criticism for Mark Arsten, who correctly assessed the debate before him, and I feel that the technical outcome of this DRV should be "endorse". But a close look at the article and at the debate does strongly support what Fram's saying.
Article rescue is, and should be, an important part of the Wikipedia process. But it's not "rescue" to write: In 1828, a sewer ran parallel to the road; however, during a yellow fever outbreak the sewer did not emit any excessive odours that seemed out of the normal. That sentence is evidence of extremely poor editorial judgment on the part of the article's contributors and therefore suggests a need for critically-minded editors to go over it with a fine tooth comb. I also (cynically) wonder whether the reason for that sentence might be no more than a wish to add an academic source to the references. It's certainly not "rescue" in the sense that I understand it.
I feel that our discussion processes have failed us in this case and I feel that the debate was defective. I suggest that Fram be permitted to fix the article as he suggests in the nomination, after which we should vacate the closure (without fault on the closer's part) and begin a fresh XfD.—S MarshallT/C 11:54, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)I already did, repeatedly. The most blatant is the whole first paragraph of the history section, from "Constructed in the thirteenth century" until "connected to the gate by a curtain", where the sources only discuss the bastion, not the road, but the article is written as if the sources are about the road (with sentences like "the road was known as ..."). Fram (talk) 12:05, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse There was no consensus to delete, not even close. The complaints above are just a matter of ordinary editing about details of the article. AFD is not a GA review and we should not encourage such vexatious nitpicking as a way of gaming the deletion process. There's clearly plenty of material out there about the road and the associated fortifications.. If Fram wants to bicker further about this then they can and are doing this on the article talk page. That is the proper venue for such content disputes while bringing it to DRV just seems to be forum shopping. Warden (talk) 12:59, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Details"? "Nitpicking"? The main claim to fame for the road is a complete fabrication, with sources which aren't about the road at all. Then again, you claimed at the AfD that "the road was originally constructed to service the bastion", but the source you upon request provided doesn't mention the road at all. And you claimed in that same AfD that "Argumentation about the fine details of the article and its sources are therefore inappropriate." It seems that you have a profound misunderstanding of what AfD is about, and an equally profound misunderstating of what "sourcing" means. Fram (talk) 13:11, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You made uncivil complaints of that sort during the discussion, e.g. "Bullshit. Sorry to be so blunt, but this is utter bullshit.". Your position about the sources was thus clear to the closer and he apparently did not accept it. It is natural that you might continue to disagree but that is not sufficient reason to challenge the close. DRV is not AFD part 2. Warden (talk) 14:16, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
When you can't defend your content, attack the editors. Nice tactic, perhaps executed a bit too blatant here though. Why did you make false claims at the AfD? Why did you present a source as evidence, when that source doesn't contain the fact it is supposed to support at all? Fram (talk) 14:19, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It really isn't a content dispute, you know. Fram's nomination is clear: he says the deletion process has not been correctly followed and he explains why. This is exactly the right place for him to make his case. I also don't see why it's "ridiculous" to make the claims Fram has made.—S MarshallT/C 13:51, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The stuff that Fram is nitpicking about was quite peripheral to my position. My !keep vote was primarily based upon the fact that Wikipedia has the function of a gazeteer and so a historic road name like this should be retained as a blue link. The closer indicated that further discussion about merger might be continued outside the AFD. The main point of AFD is to settle the issue of deletion and that has clearly been done. But you're right that this is isn't really a content dispute. What it is, of course, is an attempt to make more drama and trouble for the Gibraltarpedia project. Tsk. Warden (talk) 14:08, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please, Warden, that's really not fair at all. Fram isn't "nitpicking"—he has a serious and well-founded case. It's true that per the five pillars Wikipedia is a gazeteer, and I've always understood this to mean that for articles that are geographical in scope, a map counts as a reliable source for notability purposes. If the article had been kept at AfD on these grounds, then I would have no issue with it at all. (I'm sure you know that. I don't always agree with Fram, and I'm not on the deletionist end of the spectrum.)
But while I accept that, the debate didn't focus on the general issue of notability as it applies to geographical locations. It focused on the sources for this particular article, and with all due respect for your own contribution to the debate, the argument to keep really did rely heavily on the sources that are alleged to cover this particular street. And it's really true that this argument doesn't stand up to close inspection.
My position is now that Fram is being both disruptive and uncivil here. In these discussions, they are engaging in badgering and bludgeoning. When other editors do not agree with them, they curse and accuse them of dishonesty. In the discussion on the closer's talk page, there was some willingness to review the article and engage in merge discussion. Instead of following up that reasonable proposal, we have this vexatious and bureaucratic DRV instead. How is this not troublesome? Warden (talk) 14:48, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. This is an improper DRV request. As the notes under #Purpose above say, DRV should not be used "because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment." Fram is not arguing that the closer got it wrong, he is arguing that the !voters got it wrong. He put forward his case in AfD, it was rejected, end of story. Prioryman (talk) 18:35, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I stated in my DRV request: "a closing admin should take this into account and refuse to reward the people who made such a travesty." So contrary to what you state, I am arguing that the closer got it wrong. Fram (talk) 06:29, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're now arguing that the closer should have determined that the voters got it wrong, but that's still at its root an argument that rests on your disagreement with the consensus of the discussion - as you said, "the votecount at the AfD was quite clear". Yes, it was and the closer respected that clear consensus rather than imposing his own personal views, which is what you seem to arguing should have happened. Prioryman (talk) 08:23, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The closer should have noted that the discussion was based on a fundamentally incorrect article and an incorrect use of sources. If opinions are based on an incorrect or fraudulent use of sources, then these opinions are inherently invalid. Closer's have to weigh the validity of the opinions and accord them weight accordingly. Note that votecount isn't the same as consensus by the way. See WP:CONSENSUS: "This means that decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's norms." In this case, no effort was made to incorporate legitimate concerns, and Wikipedia's norms were not respected. This means that the basics of consensus building were not followed in this AfD, and that while there was a clear votecount in one direction, there was no valid consensus under Wikipedia rules. Fram (talk) 08:42, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect in your opinion. You put forward your case in the AfD and it was rejected by a large majority. That suggests that most of those who participated disagreed with your view that there was "incorrect or fraudulent use of sources". Just because you believe something to be the case doesn't make it so. Prioryman (talk) 09:38, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's the part that makes me worried. Not noticing that sources are used incorrectly is one thing, but being confronted with the evidence and still refusing to see it takes it to another level. You never struck me as incompetent, but the other option is worse. Fram (talk) 10:07, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking of the "majority"...were any participants of the Gibralter projects canvassed to come vote in the AfD discussion? Cla68 (talk) 13:41, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, Fram, what I'm worried about (maybe "worried" is too strong a word; vexed is perhaps closer to the mark) is what I see as a kind of ideological blindness, bordering on arrogance, in your position. Your argument seems to be that if your fellow editors rejected your case in the AfD, it couldn't possibly be because you got it wrong or your arguments weren't persuasive enough but because they got it wrong for various reasons. Well, I've seen you nominate various Gibraltar-related articles, the Gibraltarpedia template and even the Gibraltarpedia project page for deletion, but so far every single one of your deletion requests has been or is being shot down in flames with large majorities against you. I think a bit more humility on your part and a reconsideration of your views would be in order at this point, since the large majority of editors who have commented on your various XfDs have rejected your arguments. In other words, I think it's time for you to butt out from anything Gibraltar-related and do something more productive instead. Prioryman (talk) 23:59, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have not nominated the template, so you are wrong there for a start. The "various" articles were a grand total of 2 articles, one of them here at DRV. So that leaves you with so far one nomination that didn't result in a keep because the subject was somewhat notable after all. And one nomination that resulted in a temporary keep because of the underhanded tactics of people like you, who are not above inserting or defending completely inaccurate information if it serves their purpose or project. I think it is time for you to seriously reconsider your approach or to butt out of Wikipedia completely, since such dishonesty from established editors is one of the worst things that can happen here. If you are not interested in getting it right, if you prefer having blatantly false information in articles if that means that you can keep them on Wikipedia, then you should be voluntarily retiring or be blocked to force your retirement. It is high time that you step out of your project-protector role for a second and take a truly neutral and objective look at the article and the concerns raised. Fram (talk) 07:03, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Redo from start. Fram's request is unusual, but reasonable under the circumstances. While it is important that DRV maintain its reluctance to second guess outcomes supported by consensus, as Fram and SMarshall have shown there was a conflating of sources that resulted in erroneous information that may have skewed the outcome; a fresh discussion is appropriate. XymmaxSo let it be writtenSo let it be done19:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Redo: Per Fram and Xymmax. Also, the "majority" argument is problematic, because the number of votes was skewed by the 16 notifications Prioryman made to Gibraltar/Gibraltarpedia participants to come vote in the AfD. Cla68 (talk) 23:00, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Cla68 is wrong, as usual. I note that he provides no evidence that the vote was "skewed" in any way. Of the 16 Gibraltarpedia contributors that I notified, only 2 contributed to the AfD discussion. There were 14 "keep" votes and only 3 "delete" votes, so even removing these 2 contributors would not have affected the majority in any way. It would still have been 12 to 3, a 4:1 margin, which is hardly close. The vast majority of those voting to keep the article were not in fact Gibraltarpedia project members, so it's unequivocally false to insinuate that the retention of this article was somehow a snow job. Prioryman (talk) 23:47, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. I personally feel that the article should be deleted. Aside from being sourced, there's nothing that sets this street apart from 3,456,923 other streets in the world that do not have articles about them. However, I feel the consensus was quite clear to keep the article. What this appears to be now is a content dispute to make up for the article NOT being deleted. This is not the proper venue for that. DRV exists to determine if the the close was made properly, and in this case it clearly was. Trusilver22:45, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This witch hunt needs to stop. For Fram to use words like "underhanded" and "dishonesty" to describe Prioryman is just outrageous. I am one of the editors who worked on Flat Bastion Road. Not only did I not fabricate anything, I was very careful to source everything. In addition, in instances where another editor confused the road with Flat Bastion or Prince Edward's Road, I tried to correct it. However, I did try to avoid deleting other people's work, simply because I'm a relatively new editor. I believe that this is a notable road, and should have an article in Wikipedia. I am very familiar with the subject, because working on the road article spurred me to produce Flat Bastion a few days ago. If you would like me to work further on the article and delete a few sentences that don't relate specifically to the road, I would be happy to do it. However, to start the process over again is ridiculous. Let's not pretend that this whole process is not directly a result of the anger over GibraltarpediA. This has become way too personal. Wikipedians should be collaborating, not attacking. Anne (talk) 23:08, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it "outrageous"? He hasn't been honest (and neither have Colonel Warden, Laura Hale, GFHandel, ...). Wikipedians should stick to facts, not deliberately insert and keep false information in articles in the hope that this will help the chances of survival for their article. For collaboration, some mutual trust is needed. With people like Dr. Blofeld, I know that they don't deliberately insert false information in articles. He makes mistakes, I make mistakes, that's not an issue and doesn't prevent us from working together. You seem to be trying to make correct articles as well, and I can understand your reluctance in correcting or removing information inserted by someone who has been longer here than you and whom you assume good faith about. However, in this case, for some people that good faith has been incorrect, and they have by, as I said, underhanded tactics and plain dishonesty manipulated you and others and made a mockery of the AfD. Such antics make them untrustworthy and very problematic editors, and the reluctance of other supporters of this article and/or GibraltarpediA does taint the reputation of that project as well. It does give the impression that the project and the keeping of this article on a rather random road is more important than respecting the basic policies of Wikipedia. It certainly has resulted in me definitely losing the trust in and respect for the editors I named above (not you or Dr. Blofeld, I mean the others). They probably don't really care about that, but from the point of view that "Wikipedians should be collaborating" it is a very bad result. Fram (talk) 09:02, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse While I commented in the discussion that I felt the article should be deleted per our policies, the consensus of the discussion was clearly to keep. While administrators have the opportunity of ignoring consensus in favor of policy, especially in cases of what Wikipedia is not, a closure of delete would have been clearly controversial in this case. Editors in the discussion also pointed out Wikipedia's role as a gazetteer as an policy based argument. I would have no problem with the article being renominated for AfD (although I would prefer it to be left alone). RyanVesey23:56, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I too think this is now resembling a witch-hunt (or at the very least an unnecessary fixation). I would love my street to be in Wikipedia, however (unlike this article) there are simply not dozens of references to it (so we can dispense with straw-man arguments based on "3,456,923 other streets"). My !vote here is that this action be closed and that the article be left alone (as the failed AfD supported) for six months so that the editors who are interested in building an encyclopaedia can continue the great work they have started. For those trotting out the "rule" book, do I really need to labour the point by reproducing more article text from a Pokemon character-of-the-day article? I'll do it... GFHandel♬02:09, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"however (unlike this article) there are simply not dozens of references to it" except for the fact that there aren't dozens of references to it. You are still acting as if the sources in the article are for the street, which is not true for most of them. Repeating barefaced lies and keeping clearly incorrect information in articles for the sake of keeping the article is very poor behaviour. The article, AfD and DRV are all symptoms, the major problem is some of the editors involved, you included. Fram (talk) 09:02, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse close was entirely valid based on the arguments given and proposer for deletion simply does not agree with the result. No new valid arguents for deletion have been presented here. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 03:33, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
IF the "arguments given" are completely incorrect, then the close that is based on them is incorrect as well. I came here not simply because I disagree with the result, but because I disagree with the way that result was achieved, namely by, as John Vandenberg states below, "the AFD participants were given a false impression of the roads notability". Letting such AfDs stand unchallenged just indicates to everyone involved that you don't need to be editing according to our basic policies like verifiability, you just have to make up some plausible looking and impressively but incorrectly referenced notable elements. Fram (talk) 07:18, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. I agree with Fram that there appears to be very significant problems with this article as it currently stands, especially with the article text that was added during the AFD (I have marked two facts as {{failed verification}} and large chunks of the text will become moved to separate articles because the text is good but completely irrelevant to the road itself), and that the AFD participants were given a false impression of the roads notability. However the AFD is what it is, and the closure was an appropriate summation of the opinions of those who attended the AFD discussion. Another AFD right now would be another useless wiki-political fight with lots of noise. I believe the article problems should be addressed editing using the consensus model, and the article can be renominated for AFD if it turns out to be not notable after the cruft is removed, and I am pretty sure that no AFD would result in a delete; there are plenty of merge candidates and lots of motivated pro-GibraltarpediA people who can undertake the merge rather than allow deletion to happen. John Vandenberg(chat)04:27, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. Disclosure: I did vote in the AFD for keep. However, there is no consensus to delete, which always defaults to keep, and everything seems proper. Canvassing is bad, yes, but even so that didn't affect the outcome. --Rschen775405:32, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So far, we have 8 "endorses" and 4 "vacate and redo" opinions. Seems pretty clear cut, but of the 8 "endorses", 6 were by people who commented in the original AfD as well, so who just basically want to keep their desired result. Of the fresh, independent voices (which is what the decision in a review should be based upon), we suddenly get a quite different picture: 2 "endorse" versus 4 "vacate and redo". Fram (talk) 07:18, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What's the point of having a review if you let the same people decide the outcome? Of course your comments and insights are welcome (just like mine), but it's hardly useful to base an outcome on this. If the behaviour of some people in the original AfD (and at the article under scrutiny) is one of the reasons for the AfD, then it seems only logical to note the discrepancy between the opinions of the people in that original AfD, and the opinions of fresh voices looking at it from a more detached point of view. Fram (talk) 07:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I voted keep/merge; I'm not attached to the article at all, though. But speaking from the perspective of an administrator, Mark's close is proper; you can't just throw out the majority opinion, no matter how much you disagree or think it's wrong. The onus is on the nominator to prove a consensus to delete; no consensus defaults to keep. We work by consensus here. The reasoning for this DRV reminds me of WP:PRAM; perhaps it's time to drop the stick. --Rschen775408:24, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ignoring the fact that we don't work by votecount, and that the majority doesn't count if the majority doesn't follow policies. Perhaps instead of attacking the nominator, it is time for people to start looking at the arguments given for this DRV, arguments which seem to be at least somewhat convincing to most uninvolved editors in this DRV, but which are totally ignored by those previously involved. Majority doesn't trump policy, and a persistent refusal to address policy issues and to face up to the fact that the people voting keep have either been manipulated by unscrupulous editors, or were part of those unscrupulous editors, is a quite worrying tendency. Your claim in your "endorse" that "everything seems proper" is contradicted by the facts. I can understand that people don't believe me, although that shows a lack of WP:AGF; but when diverse uninvolved people like the commenters in this DRV nearly all seem to agree, with comments like "a close look at the article and at the debate does strongly support what Fram's saying.", "I agree with Fram that there appears to be very significant problems with this article as it currently stands, especially with the article text that was added during the AFD", and "there was a conflating of sources that resulted in erroneous information that may have skewed the outcome", then perhaps it is time to reconsider your position and to really look whether everything really was proper. Fram (talk) 08:42, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"What's the point of having a review if you let the same people decide the outcome?"—What? It now seems that some Wikipedians are more "equal" than others (and I notice you haven't excluded yourself from making 14 comments here). And, there's always the point-of-view of: what's the point of having an (unsuccessful) RfD if the same people are immediately entitled to ask for a review? Please let go of this obsession, accept the result of the RfD, and let the people who wish to build an encyclopaedia get along with their work. (And, please feel free to join us.) GFHandel♬08:44, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have nowhere said that people involved in the AfD aren't allowed or even encouraged to make comments here. But I do believe it is rather telling that there is such a discrepancy between the views of those previously involved, and the views of those who came to the DRV without prejudice (from either side). The rest of your comments is rather ridiculous, no one stops you from building an encyclopedia, but I'll continue doing just that instead of "joining you" in building your fancypedia, where scoring results is more important than correct, verifiable information. Fram (talk) 09:08, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
With "fancypedia" you just lost any dignity you might have claimed to have had (and BTW, everything in the article was "verified information"). I'll now unwatch this and all associated pages, and let you get on with your policing activities. Since this travesty obviously comes down to "notability", I'll leave you with the above-promised quote from a randomly-selected Pokémon character article—so that you can ponder the inequities of Wikipedia's implementation of "notability" (today it is the unsourced Delia Ketchum):
She is Ash's mother. Delia is very caring of her son, always reminding him to do his best. She is very talented, having won a beauty pageant and cooked a dish so popular that elite chefs at the Indigo Plateau have asked for its recipe. It is not known who is the father of Ash, but it isn't clear that Ash's parents have separated, although she has contacted him at least once since Ash left. She has a Mr. Mime housekeeper who helps her with chores and is also rather adept in battle. In the Japanese version, the name of Satoshi's mother was, for a long time, unrevealed (with her referring to herself as Satoshi no haha or referred as Mama-san, although the role was credited as Hanako). The name Hanako (and its English counterpart, Delia) was revealed during the second Pocket Monsters movie. She also is constantly reminding Ash to change his underwear.
Wow! You know what? I'm not willing to deny the Pokémon fans their information—in the same way that I'm not willing to deny the readers (even if that's just a handful) who want to know more about this part of Gibraltar. Bye. GFHandel♬10:00, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Everything in the article was verified information"? Then why the "failed verification" by John Vandenberg? Are you looking at the same article? Have you even tried to verify the things that were questioned? Or are you just continuing to make things up to defend the article no matter what? Can you e.g. present the verification for "The road was built as part of a fortification system at the time by the Spanish for the defence of the city." and the next sentence? There is a source, but that doesn't verify what is stated in the article. Instead of quoting other articles (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS), perhaps you can for a start provide the actual verification for these sentences, not just the general source but the page and relevant sentences? Fram (talk) 10:10, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone mind if I move this meta-discussion to the talk page? Trust the DRV closer—most people who regularly close at DRV will be well aware of these issues and quite competent to take them into account.—S MarshallT/C 11:05, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I do mind a bit. The AfD closer should have been aware of the issues if he had read the AfD, the article, and the article talk, but totally ignored them. I hope that the DRV closer will be more thorough, but my confidence in my fellow editors has gone a bit downhill in this saga (not that all or even most editors here are not blameless, but there have been too many well-established editors who have acted very dubiously here). I'll not make a fuss over it if you move it anyway, but I would appreciate that, if you do it, you'ld note this here somehow (a short "comment" or so would do nicely). Fram (talk) 11:24, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And so these men of Hindustan Disputed loud and long, Each in his own opinion Exceeding stiff and strong, Though each was partly in the right And all were in the wrong. Yes, I mind. This section contains the useful link WP:PRAM which I'd not come across before. This seems a good pithy summary of what we have here and so should be retained. Splitting the discussion across multiple pages does not seem productive. It would be better to close the discussion as the motion does not seem to have consensus support and so we're done. There's no shortage of other pages where editors can inveigh about the wickedness of writing articles about the geography of Gibraltar.
Another point, while I remember. Fram's difficulty here seems to be understanding why editors such as myself take the position that we do. It is suggested this must be due to dishonesty or incompetence but it seems to me more likely that this is a difference of perception. The fable of the blind men and an elephant may help.
"A difference of perception"? What I see as "using sources which don't support the facts they are supposed to source at all", you see as "using sources which give a fake appearance of reliability and help increase notability"? Or what? You have on 26 September presented a source in the AfD which you claimed verified a point: I then added the link to the source you probably meant, but which didn't verify that fact at all. I asked you then and there which source did verify your claim. I again asked this in this DRV, on 2 October. You have never provided a source that verified your claim, but neither have you retracted your claim.
I understand perfectly allright why editors such as yourself take the position that you do. I fail to understand though how you and a few others thought to get away with such dishonesty (I think we can rule out incompetence, since even after having the problems pointed out repeatedly, no change, no correction, no additional questions for clarification, ... have followed). The article may be kept, or merged, or deleted, but your reputation has been tainted for a very long time. Fram (talk) 12:08, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hyperbole much? For me, the facts are more than sufficient to make my case. Since you are one of those who felt that the facts needed a bit of enhancement, embellishment, or lucky misreading instead, I suppose your comment was more directed towards yourself? Do you have, for the first time, anything substantial to add, any actual reply to the concerns raised, or will you simply continue with your empty rhetoric? (As for Godwin's Law, I already needed to invoke it in the GibraltarpediA MfD, where you participated as well; the Hitler comparison came from the "keep" side you preferred, not the opposite side; raising it here prematurely is just misdirected FUD). Fram (talk) 15:54, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Redo - Notability of the subject has not been established, and the keep !votes in the AfD failed to address these concerns in any capacity. If Wikipedia was a popularity contest then the AfD would accurately be a keep consensus, but consensus is determined as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy, not just on how many people want to keep the article. The notability concerns were not addressed, and it seems that many of the editors arguing to keep the article were fooled by the abundance of sources in the article; while there are a good number of sources in the article, none of them show any notability, and it seems that this was overlooked by mistake. - SudoGhost21:50, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Information As a result of the discussion on the talk page of the article, I started an RfC on the use of the notability tag after a concluded AfD at Template talk:Notability#RfC. Hopefully through posting here, all relevant parties are informed. RyanVesey23:28, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It is well known that Wikipedia has articles on streets, so the AfD-nomination argument that the topic fails WP:N because it is like other roads, including roads with articles on Wikipedia, falls on its own evidence. Unscintillating (talk) 17:42, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to Keep without discussion of merger The DRV nomination states, "The issue is that the article that people !voted on was a travesty, and that very serious defects with it were seemingly deliberately ignored by the different editors who expanded the page and voted to keep it in the AfD." (1) We have no policy or guideline to define the objective criteria that make an article a "travesty". (2) Likewise, the concept of "very serious defects" is stated without criteria. (3) Even if (2) were provided, such is not "ignored" by "expand[ing] the page". (4) WP:N is not a content policy, and wp:notability is not defined by article content. (5) Had any content problems existed at the time of the AfD nomination, they are not mentioned in the AfD nomination. In fact, no policies were mentioned in the AfD nomination.
Only three out of eighteen !votes mention merge. While a strong consensus for keep from an AfD does not preclude someone from starting a merge discussion or boldly merging an article, it was not the role of the closing administrator here to draw attention to the possibility of merger. Unscintillating (talk) 17:42, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your reply seems to have little or nothing to do with the actual DRV nomination. At the time of the AfD nomination, the only reason for deletion was notability, because the article was on a subject that is indistinguishable from the majority of other non-notable streets (and not comparable with those streets that are notable and do have an article on Wikipedia). But the AfD discussion very soon had nothing to do with that article and nomination, because the article was turned into a travesty: the very serious defects have been stated over and over again, it amazes me that you failed to miss them. The history section of the article was based on sources that have been (presumable deliberately) misread, taking claims which are about the Flat Bastion and applying them to the Flat Bastion Road. If the source stated that the Flat Bastion was built in year X, for purpose Y, and was called Z, then the article stated that Flat Bastion Road was built in year X, for purpose Y, and was called Z. These verys serious and obvious defects were coupled with a number of sources that don't mention the road at all (starting with two sources to establish the political position of Gibraltar), and a number that mention it only in extreme passing.
But it was on this version of the article that most people based their opinions, at the AfD and even here in the DRV, e.g. by GFHandel claiming that the "dozens of references to it" establish notability. This DRV is for the deliberate (and successful) attempt by some editors to fool others into supporting the "keep" opinion by puffing up the article with lies and irrelevant extra information. This DRV is not made to decide whether the subject is actually notable or not, and it is totally irrelevant to this discussion whether the AfD nomination included any policies or not, so I don't see the reason why you bring this up.
Note how the article now looks strangely like the version I proposed during the AfD, and not like the article how it was during most of the Afd and the DRV; perhaps there was something in my remarks after all? Fram (talk) 12:28, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The article is a new one. At the time it was nominated for deletion, other related articles such as Flat Bastion did not exist. As the Gibraltarpedia project progresses, it is natural that there will be a ferment of activity in which the content is reworked and restructured. Deletion discussions are not helpful in this. See WP:INSPECTOR. Warden (talk) 12:56, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, so the reason that all kinds of claims about the road are now no longer in the article is because other articles are created since? So "facts" like "Constructed in the thirteenth century, the road was built as part of a fortification system[...]" or "In 1704, the road was known as Santa Cruz y plataforma de Santiago" are now no longer in the article on the road but somewhere else, not because they were totally untrue, but because these facts about the history of the road are obviously better suited for other articles? See WP:BULLSHIT and WP:LIE. Fram (talk) 08:17, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fram this DRV is not the venue to decide on notability. All the DRV can decide was whether the close was reasonable based on the previous AFD. Really the place to argue for non notability is another AFD which could be initiated without this page. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:02, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
? I know that this is not the venue for that, I said as much repeatedly. The purpose of this DRV is not to decide whether the road is notable or not, but whether the previous AfD was fair process or not. But initiating another AfD is not possible anytime soon as long as the previous AfD stands. So your comments are not really relevant and not correct. I fail to see what your response had to do with my comment, which was about the continued lies and fabrications by Colonel Warden and others, despite the fact that they have been exposed by me, confirmed by others, and finally removed from the article. I was not discussing notability, I was discussing verifiability, accuracy, and basic WP:HONESTY which is expected from every editor but ignored by a few well-established ones here to further their agenda. Fram (talk) 09:12, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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