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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shakir Pichler

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect‎ to The Bamboos (rock band). We've witnessed plenty of drama during the three weeks this AfD has been going on, including multiple appearances under different aliases and IPs by an admitted COI editor. I see a rough consensus that MUSICBIO#C6 is not a magic bullet guaranteeing notability. That said, the proposed redirect is a sensible ATD, and preserves page history, making a selective merger easier, if warranted. Owen× ☎ 21:04, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shakir Pichler

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Shakir Pichler (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Article contains no reliable sources, has been marked as such for over 4 years. I've looked for sources but have been unable to find anything reliable or reputable, Google News, Newspapers and Books turns up nothing at all. Current text is likely original research, possibly advertising - suspicion they've been written by the person the article is about. Also question the notability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halfwaywrong (talk • contribs) 13:12, 12 November 2024

Hi Starship.paint. and Halfwaywrong.
I was a bit surprised to see this page nominated for deletion out of the blue after its been online since I think 2007 or so.
There are currently About 1,570 results in google for "Shakir Pichler" in quotes and that's not including the extraneous ones if googled without quotes.
The sources are reliable - IMDB for example but I think it could do with some proper formatting perhaps.
I have edited it from time to time when others have added incorrect data as well as removing old social links like myspace from the days of old :) and this page is also linked on various other wiki pages band line-ups and feature films for example.
It's certainly not being used for 'self promotion' in any way but it is factual of someone who has made a worthy contribution to both Australian music as well as Australian and Hollywood feature films so not sure why it was targeted to be honest.
There are a bunch of other credible links I could provide when I have the time and I should edit the page to make it more up to date at some point.
Anyway, again, it's definitely not 'self promotional' just because I made sure it was factual.
I'd love some help in adding all the proper ref links (film credits) (Band credits) and things to make sure it adheres to any changing wiki regulations.
Thank you. Sexbeatrecords (talk) 01:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]



I am a high school teacher in Perth and Shakir was invited to be a special guest at our Montessori school last year to talk about life in bands and also all the films he worked on and appeared in.
To this day, a year later, the kids all say it was the best day they have had at school!
He showed parts of all the films he worked on as the action vehicles coordinator as well as the parts he also appeared in and then showed us all the music videos of the bands he has played in and then gave a drum performance and some lessons for the kids!
The students have regularly used his Wikipedia page for reference in various home-work and projects since. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.118.65.6 (talk) 02:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Anyone wants to take a look at the sources added to the article since nomination?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:38, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - @Vanderwaalforces: - I reviewed all the links in the article as of this version. References 1, 2, 3, 5 do not provide WP:SIGCOV. Reference 4 is an offline book but based on Google Books, the book is a Chronological listing of popular recordings ... Provides information on how many times the recording appeared in the charts and the highest position it reached. It is unlikely that it provides SIGCOV either. This link in the article provides one instance of somewhat SIGCOV but only says that Pichler quit his band unannounced in Sydney, and his band cancelled their tour. The Who's who of Australian rock book is an offline resource and I cannot confirm if there is any SIGCOV. starship.paint (talk / cont) 14:44, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Let's not forget Shakir Pichler's own project "The Howlin' MoonDoggies" who are known world-wide and released THREE full length albums released internationally, 2 music videos played on numerous commercial free to air stations In Australia ABC, Foxtel Channel V etc, Numerous Triple J (Band of the week) and uni radio station interviews with him as well, and his songs being included in FIVE international compilation albums (I have so far only found links to 3 but there are more).
    OR his film career which is also extensive.
    For example, he was THE action vehicles coordinator in Australian film 'Jasper Jones' where he single-handedly sourced and even drove in many scenes, all the cars from the period (1960's) the film was set in, which is a huge achievement in itself, let alone all the other feature films he worked on in the same capacity, like he did for the film "1%" for example as well.
    I finally received a big thank you message via social media contact - He would like to thank everyone who has been helping source links and tidy up the wiki page. He is actually a Web Designer and said he wishes he could edit his own page (rather than the fumbling job I have done) but really does appreciate what you all have done over the years :)
    Shakir Pichler is a notable identity with massive contributions in both the Music and Film industry - Is this really still up for debate? Seems a bit strange. Sexbeatrecords (talk) 23:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As I was typing the above message I have just been sent a message finally from Shakir via reaching out on his socials.. He also just sent links to some newspaper scans etc which I have now added hopefully in the right place :) Please bear with me if the format isnt perfect and any help would be greatly appreciated so we can make this page good and hopefully put this vote to bed. Much love to the wiki volunteers. Sexbeatrecords (talk) 01:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually his project 'The Howlin Moondoggies' appeared on SIX international compilations and not 5. I actually have them somewhere in my collection I think, so Ill find the rest of the links when I can.. 157.211.92.236 (talk) 07:13, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In regards to the Who's Who of Australia Rock source - I've found a physical copy for sale, that shows it appears to be basically a list of the bands, members and discography, which I'd argue is not WP:SIGCOV.
    I'd also argue that Pichler's contributions to his bands are better served in the articles of those bands. Halfwaywrong (talk) 08:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Looking to the recent links added and they are still not good enough in terms of WP:SIGCOV. One is an undated interview from an unknown publication, apparently of Pichler's former bandmates, who said he quit the band and was beloved by fans before that. Two has a one sentence mention of Pichler, who is said to be part of a band. Three does not even mention Pichler explicitly. Four has a two sentence mention of Pichler and just says that he is new to the band (first time recording with him). Five I have covered before, just says Pichler quit and band ended tour. starship.paint (talk / cont) 08:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Put all this together regardless of if you deem the links 'reliable' (it was a long time ago so it's not easy to get new links obviously so even links that at least show the albums etc regardless of where the links live matter as evidence itself- with everything combined including the film work they are strong evidence of WP:SIGCOV
    this is looking like a bit of a witch-hunt to me and starting to wonder why he is being targeted when you need only look at the incredibly long list of achievements. Sexbeatrecords (talk) 09:28, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The albums and film work are primary sources and not independent of the subject. We would not count them as reliable sources, so there is no WP:SIGCOV there. starship.paint (talk / cont) 11:37, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    How are they primary sources? They are not self-published either. If they were this page would be about me (Christine) and I am definitely no one. I don't really understand you point here.
    Also, despite you saying wikipedia's official film entries are not a reliable source's even though they independently reflect the same credits as imdb but all the films which credit him on imdb or links have been removed - they are not primary sources so its a bit of a lose lose when battling trying to show evidence of WP:SIGCOV! When things keep getting deleted or 'discredited'.
    Again I ask, please look at this holistically for the bigger picture.
    I can download and screen-shot every movie at the closing credits with Shakir Pichler's name on it if I have to. Or take photos of every album he has played in and bands he has fronted like The Howlin Moondoggies for example. I don't know what other hoops I can possibly jump to appease this pedantic return-fire.
    Identifying and using primary sources requires careful thought and some extra knowledge on the part of Wikipedia's editors.
    In determining the type of source, there are three separate, basic characteristics to identify:
    Is this source self-published or not? (If so, then see Wikipedia:Identifying and using self-published sources.)
    Is this source independent or third-party, or is it closely affiliated with the subject? (For this question, see Wikipedia:Independent sources.)
    Is this source primary or not?
    Every possible combination of these three traits has been seen in sources on Wikipedia. Any combination of these three traits can produce a source that is usable for some purpose in a Wikipedia article. Identifying these characteristics will help you determine how you can use these sources.
    there have been countless radio interviews with JUST Shakir that I know of but can't find online other than the one I did find on youtube. And countless one on one interviews in paper and street mags over the years but unfortunately (I checked archives toay for Drum Media Sydney and Inpress Melbourne) dont go back far enough and miss by about 5 years. Sexbeatrecords (talk) 12:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And please remove that 'original research' warning as it really seems unfounded to say the least.
    this is getting way beyond ridiculous now. Sexbeatrecords (talk) 12:28, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:PRIMARY: Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved ... a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source for the outcome of that experiment. Pichler's albums are no doubt close to him. Pichler's films are no doubt close to him. Credits do not provide SIGCOV. I did not add the original research warning but there is so much unreferenced material in the article. starship.paint (talk / cont) 12:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
re 'seems self-promotional' - Shakir isn't promoting anything that I can find online other than his web design which is not linked here and his humanitarian work which is also not linked here - all of the info here is simply factual and historic. 157.211.92.236 (talk) 06:39, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Curious how you are aware of Pichler's humanitarian work. 157.211.92.236, curious how all of your 19 edits so far are all regarding Pichler. Curious how all of the 51 edits of Sexbeatrecords so far are all regarding Pichler, even including a 16-year break from Wikipedia broken by this nomination of this article for deletion. Curious how, at File:Shakir Pichler.jpg, Sexbeatrecords uploaded the image as the "copyright holder" of the "self-made" image whose author is "Shakir Pichler". starship.paint (talk / cont) 14:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What are you even saying? When I met Shakir ONCE, many years ago we were chatting about the 16 Australian band compilation he released on his then record label 'Sexbeat' called "skunk & disorderly" which to this day is one of my favourite albums that had a great review in UK Kerrang magazine that I used to subscribe to when I lived in UK and I asked what his next release will be and his answer was 'never doing that again as it was a huge task' and that he is closing the label down. I then said "I would love to continue it if he is going to throw it away and he surprisingly said "It's yours if you want it!" and gave me permission to have it. Although, ashamedly I have done nothing with it.
I did have some partners who had big plans and we created Shakir's wiki page and were systematically adding all bands on that label at the time but life got in the way.
So I got a notification recently that his wiki page was up for deletion and I was shocked so yes, its probably been 16 years since I made any edits.
When I finally got through to Shakir last week via his socials as we weren't connected at the time so the messages were in 'requests', he was surprised to hear from me and said he hadn't looked at what was on his page in over a decade.
H e thanked me and when I asked if he could help he said he can't edit his own page and he doesn't even have a wiki account but if there's anything I need to just ask and he will try to send whatever when he has time.
The image I uploaded was public from his socials and I don't know what I clicked as far as copyright but its free to use from the horses mouth. Public image.
As for his humanitarian work - its ALL OVER his Instagram! He helps organise anti genocide rallies for Palestine, Lebanon, congo etc and looking at his own web design page deliciousdesign.com.au he also made the not for profit FOPWA.ORG page for free.
SO what I'm curious about is why you seem so determined to remove him. I know some people on the wrong side of history go about things this way intentionally. Not saying you are one of them.
I and many people in WA would be sad to see this page deleted and feel his contributions to both music and film are more than worthy of having a page here.
He again said he wishes he could help me as he is a web designer but doesn't want to touch the page but thankful again to all who are supporting it. That's why my edits are pretty messy, so apologies for that. Hopefully a nice editor will tidy a bit when they have time.
Christine. Sexbeatrecords (talk) 02:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and stubify. Clearly meets criteria 6 of WP:MUSICBIO as the drummer for Kryptonics and The Bamboos; both bands of which are covered in encyclopedias. However, the WP:OR and WP:COI issues need to be addressed. I am going to be WP:BOLD and stubify the article to address those issues.4meter4 (talk) 22:17, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi @4meter4, many thanks for helping to clean up the Shakir Pichler page (sincerely appreciate your time! - however, I feel the removal of all the Bands, and releases plus the removal of all the feature films completely detracts the point of providing the most important information about him.
    Originally each film had a link to each films (official) IMDB link which credits him.. I was then told imdb is deemed unreliable (but there are exceptions) - The bands and album releases were linked to multiple external music catalogue sites or record label sites.
    Unfortunately I'm not a web designer like Shakir is and he won't touch the wiki page so I really need some help getting those 2 category lists back with links that wiki editors will accept.
    Just calling out in case you could possibly help in this respect. I'm sure you are busy but wiping out all of that makes the page pretty much 'nothing'.
    Happy to remove all the extraneous text info on him though and just list the achievements as I feel they really need to be there.
    Some schools have literally used his page for information on the arts but now there is nothing there to reference.
    Thanks in advance for any help on this. :)
    Christine <3 Sexbeatrecords (talk) 23:00, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @4meter4Perhaps you could restore the bands and releases plus the film credits in a different section that wont be challenged for 'unreliable sources' (Official films IMDB for example) despite them all being 100% factual? Can that be created? Again, many thanks for what I'm sure is your precious time. :) C. Sexbeatrecords (talk) 05:10, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Clearly meets criteria 6 of WP:MUSICBIO - yes, he does. But WP:MUSICBIO also says: Musicians ... may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria. "may be notable" is not "is notable". starship.paint (talk / cont) 10:14, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to The Bamboos (rock band). Whilst he was a member of two notable bands both were relatively short term and first was outside of the Kryptonics main period of note. Main thing of not here would be dogging his band mid tour. Not worth a stand alone article. duffbeerforme (talk) 23:26, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Duffbeerforme "dog act" ? Sounds a bit biased and personal without any of knowledge of the actual situation or reason for such a drastic thing he felt he had to do at that time. Perhaps interview him and find out what really happened that day for him to make such a drastic decision. Do yu know him? I feel you may have anterior motives after that comment.
    Sounds like a personal problem you may have with him to me!
    Shakir was a FOUNDING MEMEBR of the Kryptonics and in the band when they did their seminal work.. First ever shows, Record deal. 2 Singles and a music video.
    He was in the band for 4 years if you read up on it - they were jamming for years before ever playing live.. He started underage with them.
    And the other bands like The Howlin Moondoggies which was HIS PROJECT, released THREE studio albums, 2 music videos televised on multiple channels and music shows and appeared on SIX international compilations in USA, UK, JAPAN.. all due to his work and him drumming, writing, producing, promoting and managing his band..
    He also played drums in all-star band "The Terraces" with members from Rose Tattoo, One Way System, Horse-UK and The CLASH.
    Not to mention all the other bands he has played, toured and recorded with and not to mention the long list of feature films he has worked on as head action vehicles coordinator, stuntman, art department and even appeared in.
    Some of which were big Hollywood films ie: Mission Impossible 2( Terrible movie though) and Ghost Rider (slightly less terrible) and some of the best iconic Australian films to date. Jasper Jones for example (Check imdb link)
    His page deserves to be here on the merits of what one Western Australian has achieved in the arts alone.
    WA is very proud of their arts achievers and he is right up there doing us proud.
    Don't be a hater. its unattractive to say the least and doesn't make you look good. Sexbeatrecords (talk) 00:24, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes Sexbeat, or should I call you Shakir, "dog act" was a bad call, that's why I changed my comment. Before your reply I see. No-one is buying your claim that you just met him once and subsequently dedicated your life to him spent so much time and effort here for a simple Wikipedia page. Please stop bludgeoning with run of the mill claims. Simply show us some in depth coverage or give it a rest. duffbeerforme (talk) 13:35, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Duffbeerforme She (as disclosed on her talk page) isn't Shakir but is in contact with him through e-mail as disclosed on his talk page. There is a WP:COI relationship but I think her heart is in the right place. Be kind. I 'm trying to coach her on our policies in regards to no original research, sourcing, notability, and encyclopedic tone. There is a big learning curve when you are new to wikipedia. Best.4meter4 (talk) 15:44, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that duffbeerforme's remarks are going a bit too far. The bludgeoning and rambling comments are annoying and unhelful, but there is no reason to belittle another user with comments like subsequently dedicated your life to him. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 04:05, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much @4meter4 for you compassion and offer of help teach me if/when you have time... someone banned my sexbeat account on the completely false accusation that I was promoting it. A non existent entity.*there is no sexbeat records label and hasn't been for decades now and I have never posted links to anything that tries to sell anything, or self promote as there is nothing to sell. When I 'took it over' it was just that he said he has finished with it and I said can I use the name and he said sure. simple as that. That was almost 20 years ago and I have only JUST gotten in touch now because of this. he uploaded that pnews clipping but said he deesnt have time to mess around re wiki nor was he very interested in it.
I have just come on here to say, apologies if my responses were annoying or bludgeoning?
Yes, I am not an experienced Wiki editor or very web tech savy tbh other than social media I guess and I honestly thought my "ramblings' were required to try to help explain reasoning behind links and further information I have been frantically digging up regarding Shakir Pichler. I probably annoyed HIM the most.. Hopefully not.
I will no longer comment or edit unless asked a specific question directed at me and I won't edit anything else.
I still hope someone can reverse/rescue the biography section in a concise way of listing his releases of music and contributions to film some time if anyone feels they would like to help.
Thanks again for the editors who HAVE been patient with me and apologies again if I have not understood the correct approach to all this. I guess no one is about to put me up for 'wiki editor' position any time soon LOL
All the best
Christine. ChristineBamtonics (talk) 05:33, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You the person are blocked, not just your account. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:21, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 21:03, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you are trying to claim that you are not promoting then perhaps you should not say you were promoting. "I did have some partners who had big plans and we created Shakir's wiki page and were systematically adding all bands on that label at the time but life got in the way." duffbeerforme (talk) 13:30, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Clutching at straws much? That was 20 years ago! none of those bands even exist now! And I didnt do that. 157.211.88.80 (talk) 23:36, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I think you missunderstoond or more likely I didn't explain my reply properly when I said 20 years ago i wanted to systematically add all bands.. I was meaning create their own independent wiki pages.. not a label promotion or any type of ecommerce links to promote sales in ANY way. Merely to try to take over want Shakir had first started in order to try to help the Australian music scene. *I'm not interested in any of that these day and just for the record. and even then, I didn't end up even doing that. ChristineBamtonics (talk) 03:47, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The overwhelming and longtime consensus is that IMbD is an unreliable source, especially for living persons. It’s also surprisingly easy to get a page - even my partner of 17 years has one, as do many of my acquaintances. Substantively, everyone in 2024 understands that not everyone gets an article on Wikipedia; anyone who’s literally read three or more articles will see IMDB in the “external links” section, not the reference section. To claim ignorance is unserious. A lot of the sources are questionable. We’re now looking for major radio, television, newspapers, and similar media. I don’t see anything like that here. Bearian (talk) 03:15, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Whilst I agree that IMDB can be unreliable especially with just a user page anyone can add, do you honestly think all the films Shakir has been credited in on their official single IMDB film pages production companies would put up with people adding unreliable names and information to, and that information being there for YEARS? Not for one second!
    WIkipedia itself even states that although IMDB is generally regarded as an unreliable source, there ARE exceptions and I'd say official film pages would be a classic example of such an exception.
    While it's difficult sourcing information from the 1080's, There have been Newspaper clippings scanned and added here.
    There has been major radio (6uvs/RTRfm) interview with Shakir posted here.
    I am currently hunting for the Triple-J interviews with him but they don't seen to have archives that go back to early 2000 or late 90's whenever it was.
    Of course 'not everyone should have a wiki page!)
    But also not everyone has over 15 film credits to their name and I'm not talking about home movies here, I'm talking about big Australian iconic films and big Hollywood feature films too.
    And not everyone has played in 10 or so bands and recorded with most of them and had varied success locally and internationally in the alternative music scene. The Bamboos, for example, made it to I think it was number 3 on the USA alternative college charts with one of the recordings he played on called "Snuff" which was also one of their music videos easily searched for with him on drums.
    I Wish Shakir still had his website as that had all of the original articles and scans back in the day and I don't want to have to annoy him by messaging him on social media if he can upload them somewhere or if he still has them.
    Maybe you could put each of the film's official IMDB pages in the 'external links' area and not in his bio area where it subject to 'selective Wiki scrutiny' was before it was all recently removed?
    Shakir is a Perth and East coast alternative music ICON who has also made an impressive mark in the feature film industry. I wouldn't call that an 'anyone can have a page'. situation. 157.211.89.132 (talk) 05:53, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hey Christine, when you created the Shakir Pichler page, you wrote that Pichler was in a relationship with a person called Christine. Is that you? Seems like too much of a coincidence to not be.
    To be clear, again, all anyone is asking for is proof of notability and significant coverage of the person. Simply stating the same things over and over isn't helping, it's WP:BLUDGEONING.
    My suggestion to you would be to take the research you've done and the knowledge you have of Pichler and get it published somewhere yourself. Halfwaywrong (talk) 10:42, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi, unfortunately not this Christine! I couldn't remember that fact and had to read your history link but it was an interesting early edit to read from an interview back then although too much personal information and waffle content I reckon.
    I THINK now from memory being jogged, that Christine was Chrisntina from Germany but pretty hazy memory of that as it was just an incidental segway as to why he moved to Spain.
    I only remember he used to be actress Rebekah Elmaloglou's partner for quite a few years (had to look up her spelling). They were often seen dodging paparazi in Sydney and seen on red carpet events together at the time.
    As for wp:bludgeoning - does it not work both ways when WIki editors make ridiculous claims or neglect or twist or delete key information or report and block an account for a complete and proven in chat history, lie of 'promoting'?
    Which has now happened. Then 'sock puppetry' which wasn't the intention to deceive, as I immediately said this is a new account. And it was an innocent mistake as I didn't realise I couldnt make a new one, and from there I thought the general consensus was ok keep hat one and lose the old one. But then a new editor nuked that one too so Im not making any more accounts but I guess I can at least comment at this point.
    The 'you are welcome to join in the AFD discussion - but I guess only if you agree to everything the wiki gods say even if it is abusive, or untrue, or twisted?
    Should the challenged editor of an AFD not try to explain any justification of why a page should stay that people who know nothing about the subject matter or person could benefit from knowing?
    But wow, what a 'fun' experience this has been.
    There have been some incredibly generous helpful editor comments here too thankfully but seriously some are invoking images in my head of the incel comic book guy from the simpsons living in their mothers basements and its tarting to get creeped out.
    I would think that someone who has played with members of the Clash, Rose Tattoo, One Way System, You Am I plus his own bands would be unquestionably 'notable' for just those reasons alone.
    Maybe I should try stand-up comedy and get my own wiki page.. maybe not. Goodnight. 157.211.89.132 (talk) 14:17, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added a few new scans at the top of the 'further reading' section of interviews with Shakir from Australian and UK magazines regarding his project and band The Howlin' MoonDoggies that should hopefully show his notability WP:SIGCOV. If anyone feels like adding inline citations using those scans in the bio section or references section then please do? Thanks in advance.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Quelle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Shakir_Pichler