The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete and redirect to Cockfighting in India#Kukkuta Sastra. Consensus is that the topic is covered adequately in the target article, and that the article as it stands should be TNT'd. No prejudice against recreation in a form that follows our policies and guidelines, it seems. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:13, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kukkuta Sastra (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Now this is an interesting one. Ostensibly it is a form of divination based on the results of cockfighting (or something in that general vicinity—the prose is pretty garbled atm). This would certainly be a notable topic if I could confirm that it is real. But my searches for "kukkuta sastra" and "cock astrology" got precisely zero hits on the Internet Archive and just one passing mention in [1]. So we seem to have a WP:V fail here. There is an article in the Telugu Wikipedia, but it has just one source (which is a dead link). AleatoryPonderings (talk) 03:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mythology-related deletion discussions. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 03:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 03:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. This is definitely an interesting one. The article is just a mismash of several topics. But, here's a book that has something. Book Listing Book Preview. Now, the tricky part is this - the book was published in 2016, and this article was written in 2012. Did the book's author just pick it up from WP? Btw, looked at the Telugu Wikipedia link - looks legitimate, except for the sole-sourcing. PS:I used Google Translate to translate the article though. Ktin (talk) 04:09, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I could find two articles about this in Telugu newspapers,^[1][2] which mainly talk about how this shastra used in cockfights. So its definitely a real thing. A BBC Telugu article about cockfights^[3] says that there's no information about the author or when the book is written. I think it's very unlikely that the content is taken from wikipedia, as sastra is more of traditional knowledge than a book. -- Ab207 (talk) 19:25, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks so much Ab207! Just so I understand better: is Kukkuta Sastra a book/treatise—which is how the shastra article defines shastra—or is it a kind of divination (or both)? Kukkuta Sastra is so hard to understand that I can't really tell what it's about … AleatoryPonderings (talk) 19:44, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • AleatoryPonderings, I don't have an expertise on this topic, but I think its a shastra (as in treatise) about cockfighting. I would have recommended merging this article into Cockfighting in India, if existed, which could provide a better context and a decent amount of sources for the topic. --Ab207 (talk) 20:08, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Ab207, Specifically to the question from AleatoryPonderings, while I too don't have an expertise on this topic, I think the answer might be a combination i.e. body of study / treatise and also divination.

    There is a book that is referenced in the Telugu wikipedia article. If someone can read Telugu, I think there might be a lot that could come out of that book. Unfortunately, I can not read the language. Also, irrespective - this article has a whole lot of unrelated things going on. This is truly a fascinating article, in that I agree with the nominator! Ktin (talk) 21:45, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Ktin, You may be right. As a native Telugu speaker, I haven't had the opportunity to go through the book. But the article seems to be written in a way that's detached from its real-world context. Ab207 (talk) 13:50, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Additional comment: I have retrieved the source from Telugu Wikipedia.^[4] Kukkuta sastra is also the most viewed article of Telugu Wikipedia between Jan-July 2020 for some reason. --Ab207 (talk) 17:50, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• The archived source from the Telugu WP looks like it's from Suryaa, which would give us one RS! Not quite verifiable yet, IMO, but getting closer; would be great to have WP:THREE. For others' reference, it looks like the name in Telugu is కుక్కుట శాస్త్రం, in case other Telugu speakers want to look into this. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 18:01, 21 August 2020 (UTC
  • Nava Telangana's article^[2] also talks about Kukkuta sastra in detail. --Ab207 (talk) 19:41, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• • Ab207, AleatoryPonderings - I also noted one thing, the author for the bulk of this article is the same as the author of the Telugu Wikipedia article. But, the articles are fundamentally different. This one goes to some strange ways of linking to Mohenjo Daro etc. While the Telugu one is straight forward - this is the science (sic), these are the key divination inputs / outputs (so to speak). Ktin (talk) 19:49, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Ktin, You are right. Another editor (All Worlds) made the connection to ancient civilizations, quite mysteriously. Telugu article presents the actual contents in the book, which might explain high page views as the information comes handy for people who are involved in cockfights. Ab207 (talk) 20:13, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Summing up. As this is an AfD and not the talk page of the article—and no one has !voted yet!—perhaps we should run down how this article meets, or does not meet, policy as written. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 20:40, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1. It, to my eye, is utterly incomprehensible as currently written. Arguable WP:TNT case. (Although, of course, TNT is not policy.)
2. Further to point 1, I don't even know what this article is supposed to be about. It may either be a form of divination, a treatise about divination, both, or perhaps even neither. Another point in favour of WP:TNT, and one in favour of deletion per WP:V: you can't verify claims of an article that has an unclear topic.
3. We apparently have two, not WP:THREE reliable sources which appear to mention the topic in some capacity. As a non-Telugu speaker, I cannot evaluate them for quality. But my original rationale for the nom—that this article was utterly unverifiable—no longer applies.
4. By the same token as point 3 above, we have an arguable case for notability per WP:GNG. But, again, I am not in a position to evaluate.

_{(I think this is above post is a great call for action. Thanks for framing it this way AleatoryPonderings.)}

• Weak Keep. But, use this opportunity to get rid of the Mohenjo Daro references etc. or atleast make that recommendation. Use that to restore the article to the text that was introduced by that author who also wrote the Telugu wikipedia article. Regarding 2 versus 3, I think we can go either way, and the keep-rather-than-delete-when-you-can mindset in me, drives me toward a Weak Keep. My choice has further been solidified by that LiveMint article that showed that this page was the most visited Telugu Wikipedia article! This has been an interesting AfD for sure, and for that, thanks AleatoryPonderings and Ab207! Ktin (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Ktin, I agree with your reasoning, though I've gravitated towards a different solution. Thanks for all the input! --Ab207 (talk) 21:14, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the Redirect as suggested below by Ab207 and AleatoryPonderings. Ktin (talk) 16:25, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: Broadly agree with AleatoryPonderings that its a case of TNT. Although I think this topic may narrowly qualify GNG, the article is beyond repair and should be re-written from the scratch, imv. Better to delete for a clean start, I would do it myself if I can find enough sources and time. --Ab207 (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Cockfighting in India#Kukkuta Sastra: @AleatoryPonderings and Ktin: As I have proposed earlier, the topic may be better suited for Cockfighting in India. I have created the article and added the content from the sources we have gathered during the discussion. Regards --Ab207 (talk) 14:55, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete (because it's a total mess at the moment and should be blown up without prejudice against recreation as something useable) and redirect to Cockfighting in India#Kukkuta Sastra. Fantastic solution—thanks much, Ab207. (Note to closer: I know my delete !vote is implied as nom, but am adding "redirect" for clarity.) AleatoryPonderings (talk) 15:16, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.