The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. -- Longhair\^talk 05:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Josef Stawinoga (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

There is some news coverage here, but I'm unsure whether it rises above the level of WP:NOT the NEWS. Given the quality of the coverage, including a quotation from a "friend" that the gentleman might have been a member of the SS, I'm very skeptical. As a recently deceased person, BLP may also need discussing. Delete for these reasons. Xoloz 14:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: He was a neighbourhood icon, albeit only in Wolverhampton. The fellow was not rehoused by the council - they provided him with tents instead of placing him on the housing list. Various beneefactors donated him cooking equipment over the years - he was more of a hermit than a tramp. WP:BLP is indeed an issue, but the allegation is well-sourced. Furthermore, he meets the criteria for inclusion - in this case, Widespread coverage over time in the media such as the BBC, The Times or other reliable sources.". In this case, 2003, The Guardian, 2003, The Birmingham Post, 2003, The Daily Record (Scotland),, an obituary by the regional BBC, a 2007 Daily Mail story (not involving his death), a City council Press release about his death, The Express & Star artuicle about his death, an Indian news article about him], a Coventry news article about him, a (brief) mention in a Times onli9ne article. He was a local figure who became a 'landmark' in the city, regarded by the local Hindu community as a sandhu, and spawning a small internet following of a few thousand people. I think perhaps this quote sums it up - "A memorial could also be created in Wolverhampton to honour Josef Stawinoga’s status in the city, council leader Roger Lawrence has said.".

• Keep -Mr. Stawinoga would qualify as a local celebrity, to be sure. However, when I lived in another location in England in the mid 1980's, I (and many others) was aware of his existence (though I didn't know his name). With this in mind, he seems at least to have some 'national' presence in Britain (and perhaps other countries). Does this not give him sufficient merit to be represented on Wikipedia? There are many quasi local celebrities already represented on Wikipedia (including local tv personalities, notable car dealers and the like). I don't see Mr. Stawinoga as being any less notable than these.Posthocergopropterhoc 20:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - it seems the guy may have been notable prior to his death, and not just for living next to a ring road for 40 years. It clearly needs some expansion though, or else it's a little doubtful. Bretonbanquet 14:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - well known figure and of national historical importance to the UK. Zerbey 14:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - A short burst of news coverage as the only sources for this article does not make the subject notable. See WP:NOTE. Subdolous 15:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - There will appear to be less sources if you search "Josef Stawinoga" because hardly anybody knew the man's full name, due to his reclusive nature. Besides this, the news coverage only relates to a tiny part of Stawinoga's life, namely its termination. Notability comes from the details of his life, not the circumstances of his death. He has been a well known local icon in Wolverhampton for several decades.Yeanold Viskersenn 16:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Notable person in UK. Needs expanding though - Chandlerjoeyross 15:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Unless someone adds it in the article itself, the assertion for notability is weak. Was he a neighborhood icon of sorts? Did he inspire the town of Wolverhampton to do something? -- Emana 15:38, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - The article now asserts some notability of the subject and social impact. It is sourced enough to be verifiable. More editing is needed to change speculations into well cited quotes of people speculating. -- Emana 21:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - I've added a bit more, and I'm sure there will be more info on the news over the next few days. TharkunColl 15:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, unusual amount of coverage during lifetime for an individual homeless person, including multiple stories at different times in various national papers. --Dhartung | Talk 17:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, wikipedia sould be a depositary of all knowledge and information. Josef must have had something special about him to attract so much attention. I for one would like to know more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rohodo (talk • contribs) 18:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletions. —FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 18:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why? Corvus cornix 21:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Because he's allegedly a former soldier, although nobody has confirmed for which side.--Dhartung | Talk 21:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • So all articles about people who may or may not be soldiers get listed at List of military-related deletions? If I wrote an article about my father, who fails WP:BIO, would his article automatically be listed there if I just happened to mention in passing that he served in World War II? I was in the Air Force, if I write a vanity article about myself, would it get listed there, too? Corvus cornix 21:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes.Yeanold Viskersenn 21:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • <Throws up hands in dismay> Corvus cornix 22:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - I'm not from Wolverhampton and I knew about this guy before he died. He is quite the cult figure! Yeanold Viskersenn 22:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Notable in UK as cult figure. Believe he had a large facebook group as well.--UpDown 08:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Qualifies as a valid stub as it has references to reliable sources.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 10:33, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Fails WP:BIO and the article is full of speculation he "may have been a soldier" or SS man, holy man, or some such. Edison 14:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I live nowhere near Wolverhampton but I was aware of Josef prior to his death and the widespread national coverage of his demise must surely infer notability. • nancy • 15:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• I think the item is charming, and should be kept. A remarkable story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.197.178.2 (talk) 19:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Not *that* well known in the UK, I never heard of him! Delete per WP:NOT#NEWS. He has no long-term, historical notability, in my view. --Malcolmxl5 22:06, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Wolverhampton City Council is considering a memorial in the man's honour. This in itself would be an assertion of long term historical notability. Yeanold Viskersenn 22:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. I hadn't heard of him until today, but I think there's enough press coverage to show notability, not all of it from after his death. (I've just added some references.) EALacey 10:49, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Maybe he's not noteworthy enough as a person (I don't know) but it sure is noetworthy that he was allowed to live this way. --Zommer 11:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak keep. (Disclaimer: I am from Wolverhampton.) The article treads a fine line as to whether it's notable, but his position within the local Indian community was certainly unusual, and probably unusual enough to be notable. I remember this being reported on several years ago in (I think) the Telegraph Magazine. (I don't regard having a Facebook group as evidence of notability though.) --RFBailey 21:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I'm trying to keep facebook group mentions to a minimum... The last thing we want is hundreds of enthusiastic helpful teenagers telling their stories via the article ;-) Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry 16:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep. Anyone who manages to squat on a central reservation for 30 years is notable, particularly in the UK where you can't even drop a bus ticket or smoke in a pub without getting an instant fine. Josef Stawinoga even got an obit in the Guardian [1]. The 'Wolverhampton ring-road tramp' was a myth during my childhood, it was only after it made the internet that I found out that he actually existed. There will be lots of people doing Google searches to find out more about him so I suggest we keep the page. Aynuk N. Ayli 09:42, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: that's not an obituary, it's a news story. --RFBailey 14:49, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:He still made the national press and Aynuk N. Ayli's other points are still valid. Unknown Unknowns 15:02, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't disputing the other points. But there is an important distinction between the death being reported and getting an obituary: the latter would suggest much greater notability. --RFBailey 20:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Stawinoga is at least as notable as any of the other people in the Homeless people category. Unknown Unknowns
• Keep Lots of people have heard of this person. People are far too keen to delete things from wikipedia these days. Gadgetgeez —Preceding comment was added at 16:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.