The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 09:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ji (surname 蓟) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Nonnotable surname (only one notable individual with this surname, who probably died 1800 years ago and who has no page on enwiki); material can be merged into Ji (surname). We don't need so many articles with Chinese disambiguators. Yinweiaiqing (talk) 03:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 04:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, unless a stronger reason for deletion can be provided. The article currently cites multiple sources – is there something wrong with them? It doesn't make sense to merge to what is effectively a disambiguation page. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 15:09, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:26, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: per Mx. Granger. What's wrong with articles using Chinese disambiguators? C F A 💬 22:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete The sources are entirely lists and it fails WP:NNAME. I'm failing to see how the article passes WP:NOTDICT. AllTheUsernamesAreInUse (talk) 04:57, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:15, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete the first source is just a list of surnames from 1,000 years ago. It is a trivial mention and improper use of primary sources. The second source doesn't mention the surname, I can't really tell if the third source is reliable or not, it appears to be user generated but it may just be how the site is presented. Traumnovelle (talk) 08:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to Ji (surname): The Keep views here fail to address the valid concerns about the weakness of sources. It's not that we don't need this article, it's that without proper sourcing we can't have it. Owen× ☎ 05:51, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
  1. Zhu, Tianmin 朱天民 (2009). 姓氏的尊嚴：從姓氏起源察知神對人無盡的愛 [The Dignity of Surnames: Discover God's Endless Love for People from the Origin of Surnames] (in Chinese). Taipei: 歸主出版社. pp. 262–263. ISBN 978-986-6769-160. Retrieved 2024-09-09 – via Google Books.

     The book notes: "我所姓的這「薊」,很少人能正確的認識,當然是因為這姓氏太少;可 是,究其歷史卻是相當久遠。約等於士師後的撒母耳時代,周武王封黃帝裔 孫於「薊」,即今日的北京城西的大部分地區,後代就以「薊」為姓而留存。"

     From Google Translate: "Very few people can correctly recognize my surname "Ji", of course because there are so few people with this surname; but Yes, its history is quite long. Around the time of Samuel after the Judges, King Wu of the Zhou Dynasty named the descendants of the Yellow Emperor "Ji", which is most of the area west of Beijing today. The descendants continued to use "Ji" as their surname."

     The book notes: "然若查考古人為何以圖二的「草」,與圖三的「魚」和圖四象形的「刀」 來組成,而稱開紫色小花之菊科花草的名字。乍看之下,它們似乎是毫不相 干;當然,依造字的原則,可叫我們知道它是一種草的名字。又因它的葉子 為魚翅狀,所以就如此組合。可是,古人又把它的右旁組以圖四的「刀」, 真會使這魚和草都不敢面對。"

     From Google Translate: "However, if we look into why the archaeologists combined the "grass" in Figure 2 with the "fish" in Figure 3 and the pictographic "knife" in Figure 4 to name the flowers and plants of the Compositae family with small purple flowers. At first glance, they seem to have nothing to do with each other; of course, according to the principles of word creation, we know that it is the name of a kind of grass. And because its leaves are shark fin-shaped, they are combined like this. However, the ancients also placed the "knife" in Figure 4 on the right side of it, which really made the fish and grass afraid to face it."

  2. Xu, Tiesheng 徐铁生; Hou, Xiaoru 侯笑如, eds. (2017). "263蓟　Jì". 《百家姓》新解（精） [A New Interpretation of "Hundred Family Surnames" (Excerpt)] (in Chinese). Beijing: Zhonghua Book Company. ISBN 978-7-101-12533-7. Retrieved 2024-09-09 – via Google Books.

     The book notes:

     姓不在中国400个常见姓之列。分布于北京市，河北石家庄、正定、滦南、永年，山西太原、大同（市）、朔州、阳泉、长治（市）、介休、万荣、孝义、汾阳、文水、绛县，江苏南京、常州、无锡、兴化，浙江宁波、海盐，安徽宿松，福建柘荣、三明，山东高密、烟台，河南中牟、宁陵、义马，湖北武汉、钟祥、英山、荆州、石首、公安，湖南长沙（市、县）、岳阳（市）、华容、益阳、攸县、衡阳（市），贵州正安，陕西西安、合阳，甘肃酒泉等地。望出内黄县。

     蓟姓有内黄堂、宗新堂等堂号。

     相传蓟姓出内黄帝轩辕氏之后，蓟姓家族因以“宗轩”为家族堂号。

     蓟氏，祁姓。以国为氏。蓟国，在今北京城西南隅。周武王时始封，后灭于燕。

     蓟姓历史人物有：蓟辽，东汉建安中驸马都尉，齐人。

     From Google Translate:

     The surname is not among the 400 common surnames in China. It is distributed in Beijing, Shijiazhuang, Zhengding, Luannan, Yongnian in Hebei, Taiyuan, Datong (city), Shuozhou, Yangquan, Changzhi (city), Jiexiu, Wanrong, Xiaoyi, Fenyang, Wenshui, Jiangxian in Shanxi, Nanjing, Changzhou, Wuxi, Xinghua in Jiangsu, Ningbo, Haiyan in Zhejiang, Susong in Anhui, Zherong, Sanming in Fujian, Gaomi, Yantai in Shandong, Zhongmou, Ningling, Yima in Henan, Wuhan, Zhongxiang, Yingshan, Jingzhou, Shishou, Gong'an in Hubei, Changsha (city, county), Yueyang (city), Huarong, Yiyang, Youxian, Hengyang (city) in Hunan, Zheng'an in Guizhou, Xi'an, Heyang in Shaanxi, Jiuquan in Gansu, etc. The ancestors came from Neihuang County.

     The Ji surname has hall names such as Neihuang Hall and Zongxin Hall.

     According to legend, the Ji surname came from the descendants of Emperor Huangdi Xuanyuan, so the Ji surname family used "Zongxuan" as the family hall name.

     Ji clan, Qi surname. The surname is taken from the country. Ji State was located in the southwest corner of Beijing. It was first established during the reign of King Wu of Zhou and was later destroyed by Yan.

     Historical figures with the surname Ji include: Ji Liao, a military commander of the imperial son-in-law during the Jian'an period of the Eastern Han Dynasty, from Qi.

  3. "以蓟为姓 在童话里飞扬" [With Ji as the surname, soaring in the fairy tale]. Beijing Evening News (in Chinese). 2022-04-06. Archived from the original on 2024-09-09. Retrieved 2024-09-09 – via Sina Corporation.

     The article notes: "也由于被人喜爱，才有了蓟国，并带来了蓟姓。据《姓氏考略》记载，大约在殷商时期，古代范阳（约今北京城西南一带）因为漫山遍野长着独具气质和才情的蓟，便自然形成一个小国，史称蓟国。蓟国是今北京最早形成的国家之一。... 蓟在中国古代姓氏中的位置也比较理想，开创了神话一般的存在。其中心人物是东汉建安年间名士蓟子训。正史、野史、方志类古籍对他均有记载。"

     From Google Translate: "Because of its popularity, the Ji State was established, and the Ji surname was brought to the country. According to the "Surname Research", around the Shang Dynasty, the ancient Fanyang (approximately the southwest of Beijing today) naturally formed a small country, known as the Ji State, because the mountains and plains were full of Ji with unique temperament and talent. The Ji State was one of the earliest countries formed in Beijing today. ... Ji also has an ideal position in ancient Chinese surnames, creating a mythical existence. The central figure is Ji Zixun, a famous scholar during the Jian'an period of the Eastern Han Dynasty. He is recorded in official history, unofficial history, and local chronicles."

  4. "蓟姓起源,名人及家谱" [Origin of the Ji surname, celebrities and family tree]. Shangdu.com [zh] (in Chinese). 2008-07-17. Archived from the original on 2014-05-08. Retrieved 2024-09-09.

     The article notes: "据《姓氏考略》记载：周武王封黄帝的后裔于蓟（今北京），其子孙便以国名为姓。"

     From Google Translate: "According to the "Surname Research", King Wu of Zhou granted the descendants of Emperor Huangdi the title of Ji (now Beijing), and their descendants took the name of the country as their surname."

  5. Wang, Kezhong 王克忠 (2011). 国学精粹 [The Essence of Chinese Studies] (in Chinese). Beijing: China Textile Press [zh]. ISBN 978-7-5064-7230-2. Retrieved 2024-09-09.

     The book notes: "【蓟姓】 西周时,周武王封黄帝的后代在蓟,其就以蓟为自己家族的姓氏。"

     From Google Translate: "[Ji surname] During the Western Zhou Dynasty, King Wu of Zhou granted the descendants of Emperor Huang the title of Marquis of Ji, and they took Ji as their family surname."

  There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Ji (surname 蓟) to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

  Cunard (talk) 09:36, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the thorough search. I am in no position to comment on the reliability or independence of the sources, but none seem to offer significant coverage. At most, they read like a minor entry in a genealogy catalog. Owen× ☎ 11:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After translating from Chinese to English through Google Translate, Zhu 2009 provides 352 words of coverage about the subject, Xu & Hou 2017 provides 205 words of coverage about the subject, and Beijing Evening News 2009 provides about 500 words of coverage about the subject. I consider this to be significant coverage about the subject. Cunard (talk) 11:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Out of the 205 words in Xu & Hou 2017, a full 79 words are used for an exhaustive list of all the regions where the name is found, leaving a mere 126 for the actual prose. And much of the Beijing Evening News 2009 is about 蓟国 -- Ji (state in modern Beijing) -- the geographical region, not the surname. WP:SIGCOV is determined by the depth of coverage provided, not by the number of words used to describe the subject. There may be other sources about this surname, but I believe what we see here is what most editors would describe as "blurbs" - short description, usually of promotional nature. Owen× ☎ 11:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My view is there is sufficient depth in these sources to meet Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline. The sources discuss the origin of the surname 蓟, etymological analysis about the different components in the the character's formation, the places where the surname is most common, the fact that it is not among the 400 most common surnames, how the Eastern Han scholar Ji Zixun [zh] and the Eastern Han military commander Ji Liao (Chinese: 蓟辽) have the surname 蓟, and how King Wu of Zhou granted the descendants of Yellow Emperor the title of Marquis of Ji following which they took Ji as their family surname. There is enough information that "addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content" (quoting from Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline). Cunard (talk) 09:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.