The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Clearly work has gone into this, will restore to draft space if an editor thinks they can work towards gng. Fenix down (talk) 21:56, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Roach (footballer) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Clearly a lot of effort has gone into this article on a footballer from before the First World War, but unfortunately he does not meet WP notability requirements. He played only regional amateur football rather than professionally, so doesn't meet WP:NFOOTY, and I can find no evidence of his passing WP:GNG. The only references currently in the article are a piece from a blog maintained by the article creator and a (largely identical) piece on the official website of the club he played for. -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:26, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have also noted that there is a potential conflict of interest with a major contributor to the article. With that in mind I can remove edits made by the original contributor and rebuild the page as an independent contributor with knowledge of the topic.

Regarding the validity issue, Southall FC were one of the leading amateur football clubs of the time so Charles and Southall FC were playing at a very high standard of football. At the time, there were a very small number of professional clubs and Southall FC were one of the leading amateur clubs. Charles is the equivalent of a semi-professional player of the modern era so therefore in my opinion this 'qualifies' him for inclusion on that basis. If this article is deleted it would therefore follow that many other Wikipedia articles on players of similar stature (including many who are currently playing) would need to be deleted. An amateur player playing at this level in the early 1900s is the equivalent of semi-professional players in the 2000s.

I also believe that as an online encyclopaedia, it is of benefit to the Wikipedia audience to be able to access informative and historical articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JMSMiddx (talk • contribs) 09:13, 14 January 2021 (UTC) JMSMiddx (talk) 09:17, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@JMSMiddx: if a modern player has only played at a semi-professional level, then they wouldn't meet the notability guidelines either, and many such players have been deleted...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:22, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 10:12, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 10:12, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 10:12, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - fails WP:GNG; worth noting that the only independent & reliable source is a newspaper obituary which would not make someone notable on its own (otherwise almost everyone would qualify for an article on Wikipedia after they pass away) Spiderone 10:13, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - fails GNG and NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 11:24, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per above. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 12:28, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's a shame but I understood re criteria etc. When will the page be deleted? If that is the final decision. He was a semi pro for Southall FC when there were very few pro clubs in England and Southall were one of the top amateur clubs in the country so would rank very highly in modern football, he still holds the record for most goals in a season with 57 goals in one season for Southall and also played for Reading, Fulham and Tottenham. But I understand if that is the decision. I also understand re potential conflict of interest and a third party took over editing of the page. N.B. I am fairly new to Wikipedia editing and still learning.Mark Roach Southall FC (talk) 13:53, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Mark Roach Southall FC: an AfD discussion usually runs for about a week, unless it becomes clear earlier that there is an overwhelming consensus one way or the other. And please don't be discouraged by this process, sometimes it takes a while to become familiar with all the guidelines on WP and what is/isn't suitable for an article. I know I created articles in my early days which were deleted and I am still here 15 years later :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:10, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the note and I do understand the reasons why if it is deleted. I only registered with Wikipedia to update the Southall FC page and for no other reason as it was lacking in information with a lot of detail missing and put in a huge amount of time and effort to improve it as a resource. I have no official connection with Southall FC, I just decided to update the page and correct the innacuracies on it. Mark Roach Southall FC (talk) 14:19, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete amateur footballer, fails WP:GNG. We are not a memorial site for former players. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:54, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per arguments above. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:09, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comments I had a look in the archive material I have on Tottenham, and there is no mention of this player. I strongly suggest to the closer to move this to User:User:Mark Roach Southall FC/Charles Roach so he can work on it in a draft space. Also cite #2 is incorrectly cited. That should be written as the newspaper cite for what it is. From what I gather it can be probable that this article can in fact pass GNG guidelines if the work was put in to contact the archives for Fulham, Reading and Middlesex. There maybe enough published sources across different library archives to properly access this. Good luck. Govvy (talk) 18:03, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Govvy thanks. There is a newspaper archive that includes him in a Tottenham reserve game.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark Roach Southall FC (talk • contribs) 18:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• @Mark Roach Southall FC: What newspaper, date? source? Govvy (talk) 18:12, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• I oppose userfying for someone with a clear COI. If someone without a COI finds proper sources and wants to write a decent article about them, then they aren't going to use this article as a basis for that. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:07, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't understand what this means ('oppose userfying' etc) but I understand the general issues. I probably don't really have the time, energy or inclination that is required to give this a chance of not being deleted, so on the basis of the majority of what I have read so far about the key issues in question, I will leave it to whoever is going to make the final decision and leave it there, then if it stays and I can improve sources etc (or someone else wants to) then I will.Mark Roach Southall FC (talk) 19:34, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If an article is correctly built with credible sources then the COI really doesn't have an issue now! Govvy (talk) 18:09, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Mark Roach Southall FC: - just to clarify, in order to pass the general notability guideline, you would need to find independent sources which are specifically about the player to a reasonable degree of depth. If the player set a notable record, then maybe a newspaper wrote an article about that? On the other hand, a match report which happens to mention that he was in the line-up unfortunately won't help to demonstrate notability (particularly if the game in question was a reserve game). -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:14, 14 January 2021 (UTC) * Thank you. Mark Roach Southall FC (talk) 19:34, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Fails to receive in-depth significant coverage in multiple reliable and independent secondary sources as per WP:N. --ARoseWolf (Talk) 19:39, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.