The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Improvements to the article were only superficial, the weight of consensus, WP:RS and WP:BAND still stand against it. IronGargoyle 22:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alastor (band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

requests for speedy and prod have failed but this article shows no notability. It may have three albums but the article does not say if they tanked or went to the top of the charts. There are other items missing along those lines that would let us know how notable or not notable this band is. Author has had numerous opportunities to know this article is lacking but has not improved it. To me, at least as is, it is not wiki worthy. Postcard Cathy 02:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete, yet another non-notable band.KeNNy 02:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment WP:JNN. I believe that an argument needs to be provided as to why the band is not notable. Fimbulwintr 04:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

What a wonderful way to start the morning - a good chuckle. Fimbul, you can't be serious. Wiki by definition should only have articles on notable subjects. I think we agree on that. But this article doesn't give us any information to determine whether or not it is notable. It is hard to debate the subject when there is only a list of members and three albums that only those interested in Polish music will have heard of. Even then, Polish music lovers may not have heard of the band. ANd that is my point. The article says nothing. Postcard Cathy 13:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You must have misunderstood me. I have nothing against people wanting to delete non-notable articles. But there must be a justification provided as to why its not notable. You already stated in the nomination why you think its not notable. Echoing "not-notable" doesn't add anything to the discussion. These deletion discussions are just that, discussions, not votes. I don't speak Polish or know anything about Polish music, so I'll leave it to those who do to decide whether or the article is notable. (Not trying to start a fight or anything here, just giving my interpretations of the AFDs.) Fimbulwintr 20:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete non-notable; band members don't have articles. --ROASTYTOAST 02:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment WP:JNN. Saying not-notable is not an argument by itself. Also, why does the fact that band members not having articles mean that the whole band should be deleted? Fimbulwintr 04:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment I don't mind people using WP:JNN to seek clarification. But it is 'NOT Policy!!!! As it states: This is an essay. It is not a policy or guideline; it merely reflects some opinions of its authors.So, frankly, if User:Roastytoast wished to say the subject is in his/her view just not notable, that would be perfectly reasonable. Eusebeus 09:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Wrong. A rationale that the subject is not notable, with zero further explanation, gives the closing administrator nothing to go on. See User:Uncle G/On notability#Giving rationales at AFD where this is explained. Learn from the prior RFCs and from experience. Don't encourage editors to repeat the same mistakes. Uncle G 10:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Besides, WP:Music guidelines do not state that band members have to have articles for the band to be notable. Cricket02 17:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. The multiple albums released over a period of years and the listing in an encyclopedia of Polish rock music demonstrate notability. The band continues to perform; see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3oTNf4ZaJk for a performance at Hunter Fest in 2006. --Eastmain 02:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletions. -- Eastmain 02:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. There is an article on the band in the Polish Wikipedia. See pl:Alastor (grupa muzyczna) Does anyone have access to a database of Polish music charts to see whether the band had a charted song? --Eastmain 02:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment My guess is the author is not a native English-speaker and does not understand what these processes are; hence, no improvements made. Maybe keep and list at Portal:Poland/Poland-related Wikipedia notice board for translation of the Polish article? Cricket02 02:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep If it is expanded as per Cricket02's suggestion vLaDsINgEr 03:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Fails WP:BAND. Unless someone can show that the band fills one of the criteria there, it should go as non-notable. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 05:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• weak delete, meets the criteria of having multiple released albums, but english-language sources are extremely sparse. I want too give it the benefit of the doubt, but the only thing about the band I've found is this review: [1] If someone can translate the polish article/sources then we'd be good. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 06:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I hate that criteria. I could record myself, burn 3 CDS here on my computer, and hand them out to the 200 or so people that live in my apartment complex. If I then post an article about myself calling myself a singer and list those 3 CDs, you can ASSUME that the CDs were sold in stores, at concerts, etc. and have no idea that only 600 were made. That is why I want to know how well they sold, did they win any awards or honors, and so on. That makes the difference between my example, which I believe to be of a non notable singer, and a truly notable one. Postcard Cathy 13:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You couldn't do that back in 1980's Poland, I mean, burn couple records and so on. You should squeeze all your savings just to record this on tape on high quality equipment, hand ready to print tape to studio officials bribing them to take it, and you got only 30 thousand singles which never paid off the initial investment. But all 30 thousand were sold in strores in less than three days. That I guarantee. greg park avenue 16:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As far as the numbers sold, please put a citation to that. YOu know that from somewhere. Put it in the article. As to my initial comment, I meant it in general, not just to this group.Postcard Cathy 21:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete appears to fail WP:BAND. Eusebeus 09:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong keep - the band was established during Marshall Law when the rock music of this kind was the only form of protest which makes them distinguishable. From that era comes the best Polish rock music ever and the best bands were then formed, for example Lady Pank. They've got something to say, and that's what art is for. If an artist has nothing to pass on, he's not an artist. They played their own songs, they wrote their own lyrics and their own music, and they played their own instruments, unlike those state sponsored types who just were led by hand and sang what they were told by Jaruzelski's regime. I recommend to translate titles of the songs and albums, though. greg park avenue 16:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note I've added a request for comment at Portal talk:Poland/Poland-related Wikipedia notice board in hopes of gaining more insight from the Polish article on whether this band is notable. I'm concerned the Polish article may not have reliable sources either. Cricket02 17:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This time this Polish article is reliable and sourced enough. With exception of the only one album from 1989/1990 in both Polish and English versions "Przeznaczenie" (The Destiny) which was recorded but never released, but Polish wiki states that. English one did not: someone named "Eastmain", probably trying to help had introduced this album into English wiki today but obviously he didn't understand the word "unreleased" in Polish, so he omitted it. I have corrected this mistake on the main page already. If it went unreleased back in 1980's, it only corroborates the thesis I wrote already about how good they really must be back then, however, today it's perhaps too late to recover this album, perhaps it's OK artistically but not technically, and after fiasco of "Syndroms of the City" rated only 5, they scrapped it and hit the road again. Or maybe it's still tabu in Poland again. Many articles me and others wrote exist in English wiki but were shredded in Polish wiki. The most typical example is a sad story about Anna Halman. greg park avenue 19:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep In light of recent improvements and addition of an ISBN reference. [2] Cricket02 20:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the attempt at improving the article but their own website is hardly a reliable source IMHO. Postcard Cathy 21:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete While I suspect that in real life this band probably meets notability, going by the article—which doesn't even claim notability—I have to come down against it. Were the Polish article to be translated, it would still need some reliable sources for me to change my mind. Closenplay 00:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.