Hello, Zara-arush, and Welcome to Wikipedia! Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Also, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! Cordless Larry (talk) 23:20, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply] Getting started Introduction The five pillars of Wikipedia How to edit a page Intuitive guide to Wikipedia Finding your way around Table of contents Department directory Editing articles How to develop an article Manual of Style Getting help Frequently asked questions Cheatsheet Where to ask a question Help pages New contributors' help page How you can help Contributing to Wikipedia Community Portal Follow Wikipedia etiquette Practice civility

Hi, Dear Sonelle. I ask you for your permission to use the photograph of F.s.lybica in my article on cat domestication that I will offer to a cat fancy magazine. Thank you in advance. User:Zara-arush

Sorry for not replying earlier - I know it's probably too late now, but I have no problem with you using my picture for your article Sonelle]] [[User_talk:Sonelle|(talk) (talk) 15:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 15:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An article that you have been involved in editing, Van_Cat_Naming_Controversy, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Van_Cat_Naming_Controversy. Thank you.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Meowy 00:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am not against the deletion of the article Van_Cat_Naming_Controversy, because there was nothing, relating to cat fancy in it, and there was only the political interests of the Turks trying to humiliate the neighbors.--Zara-arush (talk) 11:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

^^^You need to add that to the AfD article Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Van_Cat_Naming_Controversy. No one will see it hereElen of the Roads (talk) 15:05, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted your edits on Turkish Van. The native name of the cat belongs in the lede - it doesn't want moving. (also you have (by accident) messed up the referencing but that would be fixable). Your other edit, about Van cats being only white, is not only unreferenced, but contradicted by every source I have seen. Please discuss on the article's talkpage.Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:05, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Have I ever written that Vana katu is all-white?--Zara-arush (talk) 15:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I see where you are coming from. Sentence you put in was

Actually, the Turks recognize as Van cats only odd-eyed all-white cats both semi-longhaired and shorthaired (that are recognized in Europe (WCF) as Anatoli). They name both varieties "Van kedi/kedisi".

Do you have a reference for this, as I have a very good reference that disputes it. [1] Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 22:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems, from Meowy's recent actions, that they are trying to block any information about the controversy from being anywhere on Wikipedia at all. And Meowy won't respond to my requests for discussion. Could you please at least back me up in the deletion debate so that the valid info can remain here, somewhere at least? --Yalens (talk) 19:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If the article gets renamed to Van (cat), any sourced material about the cat as a political symbol could quite properly be included in the article, because it's about the history of the cat, the cat in its homeland etc as well as the cat in the West.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Zara-arush. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Find the section here--Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So, why are you here? Best to push off if your only agenda is to push ethnic hatred.--Anthon.Eff (talk) 02:11, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Too easy way to push off someone, who is not approved by some group that appropriated the right to write here any nonse that suits them to support their commercial and political interests. Once more: I DO NOT HATE ANYBODY, BECAUSE I AM A CHRISTIAN. There is nothing in this world that is done without the Creator's will. It is the base of my attitude to any event. And because here is not the place to propagate someone's religious believes, I offer you to discuss the problems, relating to the genetics, health, welfare and even education and popularization of the domestic feline breed that is recognized by numerous international cat fancy organizations: Turkish Van cats. And please, stop your psychological supressions and attacks, it will not work with me. I appeal only to the common sense of the people of good will.--Zara-arush (talk) 10:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We need to forget our differences about beliefs about the Kurdish ethnic group and the cat, and simply work to preserve the info's display on the encyclopedia, which some people *coughs* seem so determined to delete. We can work this out once the page is for sure saved. But we need to first make sure the page is still around so we can make it better, right? You do get where I'm coming from, right?--Yalens (talk) 16:25, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think a major problem between us is the language barrier. Clearly, your native language is Armenian, not English; you misunderstand much of what I say.

First of all, I will have to explain, somewhat about myself. I am not Kurdish, whatever ideas you may have. Being Kurdish would be cool, its an interesting culture, but I'm just not. I live in the US. I'm half Scottish on my father's side, and half Chechen Jew on my mother's side (actually, only my grandfather is a Chechen Jew, but whatever). I am not involved in these Middle East disputes at all, and my only first language is English.

My goal for now is to make sure the information is, you know, existent on the webpage. The only reason I occasionally delete or edit opinions you may have put in is due to assertiveness. If anything, I am anything but anti-Armenian.

As for politicalness, I view the article as a political article, so it is only natural that it be largely about politics, and sadly that includes portraying drastically differing viewpoints. That being said, I can hold that off for awhile, if you need me to. I just think the article should work for its original purpose.

As for propagandistic Turkish gov't influenced info... these are verified genetic tests. While Turkey might censor them (because they reveal that the Turks are actually not from Central Asia really, rather just a ton of Turkified Greeks, Kurds, Armenians, etc.) and Armenia not look at them positively, the scientifically aware rest of the world is well aware. Lets let that issue alone, though. Of course, its not as if Armenians are included in the core of the Caucasian group (that would be Georgians and Chechens). But it is also generally accepted that they can be considered to be heavily influenced by their Caucasian (as Utartian) geographical roots. The fact that Armenia, Azerbaijan and Kurdistan have generally formed the area of genetic exchange between Iranic peoples and Caucasians is well accepted.

So, then, I accept (?). What do you think we should do with the page, at this point. What should we put back in, for example, and how should we go about it?--Yalens (talk) 00:00, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please read ALL of the following message carefully before responding. Please.

mmm... first of all, I will have to correct you. You can't just stereotype Americans as w/o ethnicity. I am somewhat able to understand the Chechen language, for example. Whenever I went to bed as a child,my father, or occasionally my mother would tell me stories about the valiant resistence against the empire, that is Russia. Or of some handsome Chechen youth who rescues a beautiful maiden or children from being murdered or abused by the Russian troops. I would watch the news about the region. Hear tales of how, this part of Groznyy was where my great grandfather went to school, I recognize that building, but now it is destroyed. I wasn't there, but I would cry for it. It hurt that our country didn't really give a damn about poor Ichkeria. All we want is independence. We fought for the right to self-determination, freedom, and true democracy. All things the Russian monster cannot fathom. It is not the fault of the Russians themselves, their whole history has been oppression and blood, whether they were oppressed or oppressor. They know no other way.

You cannot say I do not know the region. I can draw a map from memory alone. Armenia, Turkey, Kurdistan all included. My mother has a little bad drawing of it from when I was six on her wall; I made special symbols, skulls for "bad guys" who didn't side with us, like Ossetians, and stars for people like Georgians that did even the least for our undeserved suffering to be somewhat relieved.

The Russians destroyed our libraries in 1944. Books that were thousands of years old, written in Ancient Georgian script. Our language points to the Fertile Crescent. The Russians' doesn't. They can't tolerate that. We had to be obliterated. Except we weren't pacifists like the Ingush, we put up a fight, but we couldn't win each time because there are just so. many. Russians. No one cared to help us, even though all we ever fought for was good, except crazy radical Arabs, really. So its not surprising that with more weight in bombs dropped on Ichkeria than people living there, so its not surprising that the un-Chechen ideals that the Arabs introduced may have taken root since only Arabs gave a damn.

Enough about my own roots. You can't even say that a person with no roots to the region "can't understand". The need to preserve ethnicity is common to ALL ethnic groups, not just Armenians. ANYONE can understand, of course for a member of the Germanic, English speaking majority of the US, it might be hard to understand, but it doesn't mean they are INCAPABLE.

Anyhow. I highly doubt such a tiny, insignificant English wikipedia page as this would really cause anything harmful to the region. But if it could, what's more likely to cause ethnic hatred, me talking about, with no favoring to any side, the three-way dispute over ownership of the Van region and its cats, or you talking like this...

"... owing to the Genocide of 1915, is scattered all over the world. The fact that not the Turks, nor the Kurds are very little attached to the creation of the true Van cat phenotype is proved by the lack of simple people, who are eager to adopt the cats from Van House, and the absence of the tradition to have cats as house pets that is again poroved by the keeping of "van kedisi" in large, human-free open-air cages in Van Cat House and catteries in the villages on Van Lake shore."

Retrieved from your past edits.

That is extremely pro-Armenian, and anti-Kurdish and anti-Turkish biased. Not sure where you got the "fact that not Turks or Kurds were attached the creation" of the phenotype or that it was "proven by the lack of simple people who are eager to adopt cats from the Van house". You talking very derogatorily of their cultures, as if Armenian culture is somehow better than the other two. If anything would cause resume of ethnic violence, it would be talk like that, not what I say. Wikipedia, especially English wikipedia, should be neutral. Isn't there an Armenian wikipedia you can vent that on? And even so, you shouldn't post that stuff there either... Worst of all, you post stuff saying that the Van region, for sure, is Armenian and nothing else. That is one viewpoint, not a universal truth. Write a blog if you want to say that, but Wikipedia must be unbiased.

Nonetheless, we both share the desire to preserve this page. I offer to delete all of our debate on the origins of various groups, etc, from the talk page, and we may both agree to disagree on that matter and the one I discuss above. If you look at my last edit, I made efforts to moderate the stuff about Hurrians and Utartians, to say that it wasn't a consensus, and it was one viewpoint, etc, etc. If you would rather I completely delete it from the page, I will do that as well, though I'd rather not. We both want to preserve the article, so let's work towards that common goal and be friends for now. I will delete all the careless things I have said and that which you have said so we may start anew in order to preserve the page, if you wish. Before editing, I will consult you first, and expect you to do the same with me. Is this a deal? Can we be friends?--Yalens (talk) 16:37, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Yalens, thank you for clearing up your background and your position. Now I may guess the choice of your User name - Yalens. It is not Russian Yelena, as it is presented in on-line name list.

OK, let's gp on with the article. I thought that I managed to express my position exactly several times. I will not get too sad, if the article on the conflict of the names be deleted, because it does not correspond to the context of a cat fancy article. You may offer the interested people to discuss the contradictions among the ethnic groups of Eastern Anatolia in a special article, cleaning up all the texts, relating to Van cats. I already explained that this breed is endangered. And that not only by the Western breeders who mix TUVs with Angora cats to get solid whites and odd-eyed cats, making the mix of the mix. I am not a historian or geneticist to give you professional replies. I never studied the sources as a professional historian. Of course, I read all that I needed to write my articles relating to cats, but I never collected the sources to prove you now, because my readers in general are aware of the events that I write about and because it related to their own history. The text that you could read and that had been published in the Internet is the translation that had been written not for Western people, who are unaware of the situation. If there will be any magazine that will offer me to publish any of my articles in English, I will make the new edition with all correspondent references. And please also understand that I may not confirm all that you write about the Kurds, and I feel little sympathy to them, becuase of their role in the massacre of my compatriots. If it was not their help, the Turks would not be so brave, and the number of victims would be less. And again, I say that it does not mean that I hate anybody. And for this reason I do not want to continue writing about the contradictions. I hope now you may understand my position. We may be friends and avoid mutual discussions of ethnic conflicts. We acted this way, when the representatives of several ethnic groups met in private. Best wishes, --Zara-arush (talk) 22:15, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I only hesitated because I thought at first that Zara-arush was your surname - which wouldn't give me any idea of your gender. Of course, once pointed out to me that Zara was your first name..... I do hope I haven't offended you.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, you did not. I am a former travel guide, so I have met representatives of many ethnic groups of the world. People in all the countries speak English, so, those, who are English native speakers do not need to study the language of any country they visit. The same in Internet communication. You do not need to study Kurdish or Turkish to travel in Turkey. But it has other side, you are not able to know much about the people, if compaired with your knowledge, if you studied their language and culture. So, it's OK, I am not insulted that you could find out where is my given name. And I was not offended that you thought I am a male, because I am used to call spade a spade. Love and Peace, --Zara-arush (talk) 11:14, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry I had to revert all your changes on the Noah's ark tales - I notice we now agree where to put the info about the thumbprint, but I couldn't figure out how to leave your amend and change the earlier ones. I know you are doing this in good faith, but please do believe me - I am the native English speaker here, and I am a published writer in English. What you had written was not correct in English, and sounded very odd in the ENGLISH encyclopaedia. I don't want to have to keep reverting you on this, so can we agree to leave it as it is now.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 07:53, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Elen! I am very proud that the native English speaker and a published writer in English edits my clumsy writing. But I am afraid that after your last edits the three paragraphs are not joined in one narration. They look like a mix of three different parts. The thread of the story is cut. There is no logic that may join them in a unque tale. It is the main reason that I undid your previous editings. It is a stylistic error also. Don't you feel it?

Then, you wanted very much a proving source. I found the data of the Persion historian book. But the legend is also told in Rabbic literature. For example, I read about it first as a Jewish legend, narrated for children by a Jewish writer. The fact that it was mentioned by several nations and the existance of several proverbs are the evidence in favor of the existance of van-patterned cats in very-very (I guess all non-native speakers like this repetition) ancient times. Thus, when you delete all the legends and proverbs you make it a secondary prove. You should realize that, when the Christianity had been adopted in Armenia, all the temples (besides one in Garni) were ruined, and all pagan cults, literature and books were prohibited in Armenia. For this reason to prove the fact of the existance of van-patterned cats in Lake Van may be proved only by the genetic research (and it proved it) and folk legends. I wrote that the cats with the marks of blessing were bred in the temples of Astghik. But there was also another cult that had close relation to it. It was the warship of Astghik's beloved - another deity, named Vahagn, who was warshiped as a deity of fire or sun, depending of time period). The van pattern may be also interpreted as the blessing of the rising sun. The color of Lake Van under the rays of the rising/setting sun is named in Armenian "tsirani". Too long for a simple text of any encyclopedia. The ancient people were not so primitive as they are usually described. The same non-native speakers of English. I hope you will recover yourself, what you spoiled in the three paragraphs. If you really want to make the text about the legends sound well in English, please edit the use of words or spelling and similar mistakes, in case you find any. And just for your knowledge, I write in Russian, and also I have an English language feature article, published in a US newspaper. Not much, but I just started to write. Otherwise I would not be so brave and edit anything in English Wikipedia. Love and Peace, --Zara-arush (talk) 17:30, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you want we can continue it here. It was kind of silly for us to be talking about linguistics and genetics on the Van Controversy page discussion. So if you want I can move the discussion to the talk pages. Or, if you'd rather not talk about it, just tell me and I won't respond again. Like, just say, Yalens I don't want to talk politics or whatnot (you've said that before, but if you say it now, I'll stop talking and delete my previous post).

So, here's my reply to the last one.

Well, actually before that, I think you already know this by now, but my name isn't Yelena xD. Just to make sure. Because, I'd find the concept of someone thinking I have a Russian name rather alarming. Not that it isn't a beautiful sounding name, but it... could never be mine.

And also, it's the Armenian Plateau, not the Armenian Plato. If you say Plato, people might think you're talking about a Greek philosopher. And they're pronounced differently too (Plato and plateau).

Anyhow, I'd be rather surprised if there was actually a comprehensive study on teh Armenian genome that showed affinity to ONLY Greeks and Ashkenazi Jews. Of course, I assume you meant Mizrahi. Just to be clear, Ashkenazis are Jews from Spain and Northwest Africa. Mizrahis are teh Jews throughout the Middle East.

As for affinity to the Mizrahis, that's not so ridiculous really. The Kurds notably do too. The Mizrahi Jews, as I learned, probably fled up to the southern slopes of the Caucasus- namely, Kurdistan and Armenia, and were eventually absorbed into the society. I.e., a Jew marries an Armenian, so what are their kids? And then their kids all marry Armenians, and so do the kids of those kids, and so on, until the kids are really overwhelmingly Armenian and their tiny Jewish heritage is forgotten. But the genetic influence on the Armenians by the Jews who were eventually absorbed and assimilated and intermarried with is still traceable. The Kurds are closer to Israel, so expectably, they are closer to the Palestinian Jews (i.e., the Jews that made it to Armenia may have been partially Kurdified already).

But, I have to ask, how is it that in whatever study you are quoting, that it doesn't show the strong affinity of the Eastern Turks to Armenia. As well as that of the Kurds. In the studies I saw, the Kurds were referred to as the closest relatives of teh Armenians genetically. It is also worth noting that there are a significant number of Christian Kurds, and they were Christianized (before being Islamized) mostly by the Armenians, which is just one example of the formerly interlinked nature of Kurdish-Armenian relationships. In fact, some Kurds are even Armenian Apostolic, and the only thing differentiating them from Armenians is their language, and the ones living in Armenia currently are thought to be in the process of becoming Armenians as they slowly transition to speaking only Armenian and are assimilated. Likewise, Armenians that chose to become Muslims would be largely isolated from their communities. They wouldn't want to be with the Turks, because Armenian vs. Turkish tension existed long before the genocide, even among Islam-converted Armenians, so they would become heavily involved with Kurds usually, and their children may marry Kurds, and by this process their descendents eventually became more Kurdish than Armenian.

Furthermore, although Armenian is a regarded as a language isolate within the Indo-European family, but Kurdish is often referred to as being the most like Armenian. Kurdish has a much closer common ancestor with Persian and Talysh and Lurish, but because of its millenia long history of being in close proximity to Armenia, I'd guess that they heavily influenced each other.

I'd also like to say that while you and the Kurds are far from the same, you should not hate them (well, you shouldn't hate anyone, but...). I mean, speaking to someone of the nation of Armenia, I'd like to say that (if its not rude) it may be in your best interests to accept the Kurds' request for friendship. Armenia is surrounded pretty much by hostile countries. Turkey and Azerbaijan go without saying, and Armenia could definitely not be friends with Iran's current Islamist government due to their own insistence on the importance of their traditional Christian faith (and its not as if Persia was "clean" in the genocide, they let all that stuff happen in Urmia and did nothing to stop it, and the fact that they ALLOWED the Ottomons on their territory is almost as if they wanted it). Georgia is currently warm to Armenia, but I wonder how long that'll last. Especially since they seem also quite warm to Turkey and Azerbaijan, and Georgia has Javakh, which wants to be part of Armenia. Just like Albania and Macedonia only really pretend to be best friends, it would be unwise to rely on the friendship of Georgia. However, from my opinion as an amateur historian (I'm far from professional really...), Kurdistan could be a great ally. While some Kurds took part in the genocide, mostly as mercenaries or because the government drafted them and forced them to, there were also many Kurds who took an active role in trying to save Armenians, allowing them to hide and whatnot, because they feared that they'd be next. The Kurds I've talked to have said that they think that Armenia is the nation that is friendliest to its Kurds; there is no need for the tiny Kurdish part of Armenia to join Kurdistan as they already have cultural autonomy. On this Kurdish forum I went to awhile ago, I came across a humongous thread about the Assyrian and Armenian genocide. Pretty much, the consensus was that everyone was really upset that Kurds took a part in it, and almost everyone was really sorry; there was also some suggestion that the Kurds hand over some land to the Assyrians so they could get their own tiny state, probably Mosul/Nineveh and maybe even Kirkuk (there was a debate over whether Kirkuk should be handed over) as well as much of the Assyrian ruins. Some Kurds were against handing land over, but about half of them said that the land was Assyrian ancestral land, and just as they hate the Turks for what the Turks did, they don't want to be like the Turks, so even though those places now have Kurdish majorities, they'd hand them over as an apology (I find that so touching...). There were some Kurds that disliked Armenian claims to the Van region, but most of them wanted Armenia as an ally and Armenians as friends, because Kurdistan, like Armenia, is surrounded by many hostile countries. I think it would be good for both of you to have a, you know, reliable ally, and almost all the Kurds I've talked to are really sorry and somewhat embarassed about the Kurdish involvement in the Genocide.

As for Indo-European language urheimat, isn't it possible that the language expanded after the thaw? If it split, say around 3500 BCE or 3000 BCE, it would be late enough to have horses, but long after the thaw. And furthermore, it just seems to me like, well, we already know what languages are native to all the other regions. You'd expect them to be at least somewhat similar to the other languages there, but no, Indo-European languages aren't at all like Hattic or Hurro-Utartian. If they're not, then how'd they get there?

I mean, I'm not an expert linguist, but... and how tiny a territory must they have had. Could such a tiny territoried people really expand so far by 1000 BCE, at which point the languages are traceable as far as the British Isles and Scandinavia on one side and India and Tocharia on the other...? Having to go through such hard territory too. The resistance probable in Iran and the Balkans and whatnot... If they came from Central Asia, then they would be able to conquer Iran and the Indus simultaneously, but if they came from Anatolia then they'd have to conquer Iran first than India, which also goes also against the classification of the languages (If that happened, then the Indo-Aryan languages would be a subgroup of a larger branch which had the greatest diversity in Western Iran, but that's not how it is, as Kurdish, Persian, etc are of the same branch that branches off of Indo-Iranian, and the center of diversity for the Indo-Iranian branch is actually W. Afghanistan, a region formerly called "Aria" by the Persians...). As Jared Diamond reasons, the center of a language family is probably the spot with the most inter-branch diversity. So then the Indo-Iranian branch would have to have originated in Afghanistan, but then how come there is no branch of Iran, if they branched off of a language family from Iran?

And then there's the horse thing...

Sorry for the long post. If you want me to delete this and end this discussion, I can. --Yalens (talk) 17:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Mr Yalens, I really do not want to enter in politics related discussions. I am not the expert in populational genetics, as well as in the origin of language families. I read some articles of Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza and the data on the Ashkenazi Jews and Greeks as having the same haplotypes as the Armenians I found there. The data about the Fertile Crescent being the origin of the cyvilization I found in several recent articles. The questions that you ask me are the same questions that the scientist of different fileds of reaserach are work now to find answers. If you asked my about your health or future, I would try to answer by looking you personal fortune (trying to see it in coffee grounds or Tarot readings), if I were a psychic. Of course, I may try, but I am not sure that the result will satisfy you. I have nothing against the Kurds, as well as against the Turks or any other nation. Everyone lives his/her own history. If I would like to write about the people, I would write about the biped creatures. But I write about the fore-legged cats. And because they are domestic animals, I am to write about the people also, but a popular level, on studing the works of the researches, if applicable. Thank you for your corrections and explanations. It was very helpful for my further studies and writings. If I will have more free time, I will find more info and send you the links to what I read and use as sources for my speculations. Love and Peace, --Zara-arush (talk) 18:34, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Mr Yalens, here is the link to Wikipedia article that I read and based on the data introduced in it: Race_and_genetics [2] The file of Europe Map is not in its former place, but if you want I may load it in Wikipedia, if it will not violate some copyright. Or I may download it in a private link just for you. There are several methods to study human genetics, and the science started to develop not long ago. Not all the results are final. Love and Peace --Zara-arush (talk) 22:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Haha, thanks. I've seen this page already though. Oh well, thanks anyways... (and if you don't mind, may I delete it on the van cat controversy page, as its off topic there?)--Yalens (talk) 01:13, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you want, but please delete all the places, where you make fun of my ihnorance in the subject. Because otherwise, I shall reply and defend my point of view, when come acrooss to it.--Zara-arush (talk) 09:28, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I remove a link to Harut and Marut from this article because no reason was given for the addition of the link and the editor had been adding links simply because somewhere there was a similar sound between two words. You've replaced it, giving no reason. Could you please explain why you did that (replaced it and why you gave no reason)? Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 17:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You said before...

Hi Yalens,

I am sorry that I was envolved in the political debates that I tried to avoid. But in case you are not a Kurd (Yezidi) by origin you are not aware of the problem, and even if you are you may not stay impartial. Of course, the same relates to me, as I am an Armenian, though I may not represent all the Armenians, because we differ as any other ethnic group. There are numerous political parties and social groups with their own interests, as well as there are grand-grand children of those, who passed through the genocide, and only they may decide. As much as I know I am not among them. When writing about cats, I found such an enormous material that may explain, what backgrounds of the present events that I started to study it with more attention. The early stages of cat domestication are related to various fields of human history and scientific research. I am more interested in the origin of human cyvilization, ancient migration processes, ancient linguistics, etc. I read about it the way, I would read the best detective story. It does not mean that I am in the past. I just want to understand, what happened and why? You may ask about the future. I know the future, though the further future. The state of things in the world will change, but not as early, as I would like. I hope I will see the begining, otherwise, how I may find out if my ideas are not my imagination. I am a little busy just now to decide, what to do with all this correspondence about controversies. But I am really amazed, why are you so much keen about the Kurdish interests in the region, if you are not a Kurd. None will make harm to the Kurds, besides themselves. They prepare something, but they will fail to get benefits from it. I am even afraid, they will spoil, what they achieved. Let's see.--Zara-arush (talk) 00:35, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, I have zero Kurdish blood, zero Armenian blood, and zero Turkish blood, so we're clear. Though I do have some Jewish ancestry, and Jews and Kurds tend to bond, but ah well, I don't think that really matters.

Why am I interested? Number of reasons, here's a few:

1) I love researching the former Ottomon empire and the Caucasus. Both Armenia and Kurdistan belong to both regions (well, some of Kurdistan, not all). It's not only those areas, I can know a lot about scattered areas of Europe and Asia as well, I just like studying history. I can be fuzzy on the whole continent of Africa except for the Northern Meditteranean coast though, but I don't know the histories of those regions as well as I know the Middle East, Western Europe (particularly Great Britain, France and Iberia), the Balkans, the Caucasus, etc.

2) I can get rather attached to self-determination. Needless to say, the recent successes of the Kurds are a beacon of hope.

3) I have a hope for the liberalization of Islam. The Kurds tend to be much more liberal in their practice of Islam than many other Muslim groups, and so an independent Kurdistan could have an effect in helping the Islamic world become forward looking and modern. Of course, we have to give a lot of credit to Albania too. I don't know how you feel about these issues, Armenia isn't nearly as liberal as the core of the West, and you might look negatively on me for hoping for the expansion of equality for women, homosexuals, etc (especially seeing as Armenia is quite religious). It really is rather dissapointing to me that everyone looks upon the Islamic world as backwards, and to be honest, right now it is in many aspects. There's also somewhat of a Chechen-influence on this desire as well- Freedom and Equality are the first and second most important rules.

And et cetera.

As for the Kurds getting their own state... Right now is the time to go at it. Turkey is in concession-making mode, Iran is in political chaos, Iraq is without a working military, and Syria is more focused on Israel. The problem in my mind is that I can't make out a strong leader among the Kurds right now: Talabani and the one's in Iraq are all corrupt, and I'm not sure the PKK is free of guilt in the genre of human rights. Nonetheless, its going to happen, or atleast they'll try. But as for the situation in this new Kurdistan... that's something to worry about. Personally, I'm hoping that they'll suddenly get a rising star of a new leader, that has happened in many embryonic countries (Jelasic in Croatia, for example, or Radic in Serbia, not that either of those two countries turned out very well in the end, but...). I hope Turkey will be able to accept Kurdistan, they seem to be moving in that direction right now. Maybe they'll even help get Kurdistan into NATO, who knows?

On the other hand, frankly, it's not likely Kurdistan is going to have a smooth start. It's going to be rather rough.

Another thing I'm rather critical of the Kurds about is their stances towards the Armenians and Assyrians. The Kurds have recognized both the Armenian and Assyrian genocides, but frankly, that's not enough in my mind. They need to accept THEIR role in it and work to make amends. Without doing that, it becomes clear what their real motive is: not human rights, but rather simply badmouthing Turkey. That's not a good sign that Kurdistan will do well with its international policy. They'll be surrounded by enemies and doomed. In order to have a decently workable state, they're going to need to make friends with someone. Of all of its neighbors, Armenia is most Kurd-friendly, not like that says anything when the other five countries bordering Kurdistan are Iran, Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Azerbaijan (by means of Naxcivan). The current "foreign policy" imployed by both the PKK and the Kurdish Autonomous Republic is frankly stupid. I think Armenia can see clearly that Kurdistan's leaders couldn't care less about the genocide, and that the only reason they are condemning it right now nad trying to get more people to recognize is because Turks did it.

Not only should Kurdistan recognize the genocide over terms of foreign policy, they should also recognize simply for the sake of being historically accurate and that its the right thing to do.

And, no, I don't consider myself to be biased towards the Kurds. Generally, if I'm talking to a Kurd, I will defend the Assyrian/Armenian viewpoint, as I defend the Kurds while speaking to you. As you can see above, I have a lot of criticism for Kurdistan as well as Armenia. --Yalens (talk) 22:19, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, sorry for a short reply, as I said, I am a little busy now. My opinion, you are too much aware of the Kurdish problem to be an average old-aged pensioner. The politics may not be a hobby. We had once a places for old aged gentlemen to discuss political news, they gathered in parks. But now I do not know, if they have time for such meetings. I may discuss only cats, and if you want arts and culture (that I studied for myself once, when I was much younger), may be some ancient history. It is good for me to develop my writing skills, but not politics. I tried to publish more political articles, but they could be too sharp or too weak, thus they remained unpublished. I prefer (and dream) to write a Dan Brian bestseller to have enough means to develop cat fancy clubs and catteries in my country. And writing about cats is like writing a detective storey, you never know, what will jump out of the bag, or what the color of a cat in the dark room is. I just downloaded a book on Urartian language. If there will be sound material, I will translate some passages and publish the summery. It may be interesting for such caretaking people, as you. The weather is going to change to autumn, so enjoy the sunny days and sweet fruits. The politics does not permit be treated as a hobby. The are forces that will not permit too much of new independency in the region. These are hollow hopes. It will end with new killings. Too sad. The North is too related with the Turks. Tey may need it for the begining, but will step back soon. (you forgot to sign, Zara)

Today, I actually did come back from the beach. I have an awful sunburn... --Yalens (talk) 00:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Erh, actually, I'm not an old gentleman, rather, I'm a kid who still hasn't finished their education. But I'm weird like this. For some people in Armenia, I see, history is a painful and divisive topic, so it is not acceptable to take an interest in it. It's not necessarily like that elsewhere, however. In the US, for example, where the culture of democracy demands that each person be painfully aware of politics, everyone should know and discuss it (sadly, despite whatever claims we have to great democracy, often we fail to live up to it, but still, its generally thought that no matter how painful politics and history are, it must be learned and discussed or else our democracy will crumble, which I think almost happened because of Bush...). Anyhow, I'm Chechen, Scottish, Jewish and American, which pretty much spells out lots of politics. --Yalens (talk) 00:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Urartian... whenever I think of that language... well, it has gotten a good rep in Chechen nationalism. You see, a ton of the words in Chechen as well as a lot of other neighboring languages were analyzed, and the proto-language words look a lot like the words in Urartian and Hurrian. So, a lot of people are persuaded, including myself, that the Chechen language is one of the few surviving descendents of an ancient family in the Northern Fertile Crescent and Armenian/Transcaucasian Plateau. This is furthered by the combination of two facts: one being that the NE Caucasian language group is extremely diverse (especially when they live right next to each other), meaning the divergence must have been a very long time ago. At the same time, the proto-language seems to have words for things such archaic languages wouldn't have words for: apple, harvest, farm, axel, wheel, and the concept of technology. Thus, many scholars have concluded this as further proof that the languages of the NE Caucasus originated in the northern Fertile Crescent, splitting between 8000 BCE and 3000 BCE (both extremes being rather unlikely). Unfortunately though, certain... nationalists... have, you know, interpreted certain ridiculous ideas from this. As ultranationalists occasionally do...--Yalens (talk) 00:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As for the Kurds, really, Turkey wouldn't get away with it at this point. It's economic crap time and the world has had their eye on Turkey for awhile. It's strong, powerful countries that get away with genocide. While it did 100 years ago, Turkey no longer belongs to that category of countries. --Yalens (talk) 00:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Yalens,

"I'm a kid who still hasn't finished their education". Too surprised with you gentle age. As a former teacher, I am really surprised. The youngters are usually inclined to think in a modern manner, and you, to the contrary, and of course, it is only my private opinion, judge about the things with worn patterns. The good example is "For some people in Armenia, I see, history is a painful and divisive topic, so it is not acceptable to take an interest in it". I am not a good example to make speculations about the people in Armenia. There is lots of political personalities in my close surrounding, and I would prefer to have a break of any politics. To tell the truth, I am one among my relatives, who is not any party member. Once I counted, my relative belonged to 5 different parties, supporting 3 different leaders. I try to flee away from these political talks. I am interested in history, because it relates to cats, and that is all.

Then: In the US, for example, where the culture of democracy demands that each person be painfully aware of politics, everyone should know and discuss it ...

Are you sure? Culture of democracy? Too elevated to be your own words! The participation in the elections show the grreat interest of the US citizens in politics and their awareness. The same, you think in clichés, too strange for a kid.

"I'm Chechen, Scottish, Jewish and American, which pretty much spells out lots of politics". I did not feel anything of American and too litle of Jewish in your mentality. Just a Chechen or better to say a Turk that pretends to be a Chechen. Sorry, if I am wrong.

I am still busy and have no time to read the book on Urartian language, but if there be a sound proof, I would translate some passages. So, kid, your school lessons will start soon, and you will be more busy, like me, I guess.--Zara-arush (talk) 22:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(now, you're going to be calling me "kid", are you? ....... I'd rather not that either...)

I guess...? No, its not that I was generalizing the way Armenians are to how you are. It's rather this statement:

"My opinion, you are too much aware of the Kurdish problem to be an average old-aged pensioner. The politics may not be a hobby. We had once a places for old aged gentlemen to discuss political news, they gathered in parks."

What I pretty much gathered from that was that in Armenia, as you said yourself, politics is to be discussed almost exclusively by old gentlemen, and in parks (whether it is or not, I don't know, but that's what you said). So its not really that I'm generalizing Armenians by my own observations, I'm generalizing them by the observations of a woman who lives in Armenia and is Armenian as interpreted by what she said on an online conversation. Of course, there are flaws in that as well, but its not that its un-modern or stereotyping in any way.

Anyhow, regarding the "culture of democracy" note, it had two meanings. One was the obvious existence of the ancient tradition of Vainakh teip democracy, roughly parallel to similar temporary developments in highland Scotland. Jews are stereotypically very heavily involved in the economy and very political (especially in their lobbies), this is true of the Jews among my relatives.

But regarding the last one, that being America... yes, as I noted, there are many flaws in the democracy here. One is that the media is overwhelmingly pro-Conservative. As for voting issues, I don't remember what the turnout was last time, but I know Obama got elected with an extremely high turnout rate supposedly. Of course there are people who are like "I DON'T VOTE" and then there are people who feel more connected to their mother countries. But nonetheless, the US is an extremely politicized country, to the point that there is a degree of militancy as well as certain regional rivalries. There are extremely controversial subjects under discussion that are extremely divisive that aren't discussed in places like Armenia. It is bad for some peoples' social lives, but it is an indicator of a politically-aware country, a culture of democracy.

The US has had democracy for more than 2 centuries, whereas Armenia hasn't had it for even 2 decades. Because of that and other factors, it would only be natural to suspect that Armenia is very different in its political organization. From what you said, I (wrongly I guess) assumed that there was even a taboo in Armenia over politics. However, regardless, due to Armenia's political infancy, it has hardly developed a more mature political scene, where families are permanently aligned to one viewpoint or party with loyalty. Democratic maturity is when you are a true democracy, but Armenia doesn't even try to make itself more democratic- it is rated as a "Hybrid regime" (below even Russia in democracy), and the country is far more interested in "promoting recognition of the Armenian Genocide" (or atleast Serzh Sargsyan is, and you elected him...), what'll that accomplish? Even if everyone important recognizes, nobody is going to make Turkey hand over land back or give Armenia lots of money, so why? You're wasting your resources and your time when you could be making yourselves into a modern nation like Georgia and Azerbaijan are trying to do (if Azerbaijan modernizes before Armenia and becomes much more modern, it will be a serious disadvantage, and they may get Karabakh back, yet the prime objective is still recognition of the genocide...?).

Additionally, Armenia is a small country with a heterogenous population (97.9% Armenian); almost everyone is Armenian Apostolic, and it has never been regionally divided as the US is. There is the Dixie South, somewhat similar to the former Confederacy, and everyone views them negatively, and they view everyone else negatively. The Central Plains politically aligns with the South and is very religious and socially conservative, and they view the liberal regions (pretty much everywhere that's not Central Plains or Southern, with a few exceptions) not as immoral and anti-Christian. Likewise, the liberal regions return with jibes that the conservative regions, especially the south, are misogynous, anti-secular, religious ultrafundamentalist and even extremist, homophobic (which isn't even debated; everyone agrees they are), racist, and overall un-democratic (the worst possible jibe in a country which considers democracy important over all other characteristics in judging a region or people). The Dixies speak English very differently as well... they have weird so-called "grammar". They aren't a different ethnic group, because America has no ethnicity, but yet they are so backwards. Polls reveal they think... well I won't go there. But let's just say that America's very political nature increases certain... uh, tensions.

Anyhow. There are plenty of nations that are at this point more democratic than the US, but Armenia is far from that list, and its on the "Hybrid regime" list, if those ratings are credible. I've never been to Armenia, but a country that has only been a democracy for 18 years hasn't nearly been democratic long enough to have a democratic culture. It will take generations for that.

...and on my nationality... so I'm a Turk now? Do you seriously consider that even a possibility? I'm not even going to remind you of all the things I've said which clearly... make it obvious I'm not a Turk... let's look at my actions on the Van Cat Controversy page. Even my raising of that topic, which isn't even considered by the Turkish population for the most part, the question that something they call Turkish could actually be Armenian or Kurdish... a Turk wouldn't even think those thoughts, I don't think. Their government's propaganda would prevent it. Furthermore, I've added a page to wikipedia that distributes information that further erodes the already miniscule legitimacy the Turkish government has in ruling Kurdistan (not that I actually think wikipedia has much of an affect, but nonetheless...). If I was a Turk, that would be an unforgiveable act of national treason. You can't seriously think I'm a Turk >.>. And if that was a joke, it wasn't very funny...

And as for Urartian... As far as I've gathered, the problem with the language is that there isn't much attestation of it. The set of words they do have, a lot of them supposedly link to a number of NE Caucasian languages, not always the same ones... I think a good thing to compare it to would be the theory that the ancient Elamite language is a relative of the modern Dravidian languages (Brahui, Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam, etc.). --Yalens (talk) 23:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, kid! You had written that you are a kid. OK, if you want, Hi, Yalens!

You are the example how any saying may be misinterpreted. I say again, it is not good to discuss the politics, if you did not studied it carefully. Let's any person do its own job. I may discuss with you only cats, I am not interested in politics. And I am really tired now to enter into debates about the themes that I am not interested, because I have no time to make my own research to give you the replies. It is time to go to school, and it would be better for you to study your school lessons. When I have a short sleep and rest, and be able to read your long controversy, I will try to find something interesting on my opinion in your replies, and answer you. Now, sorry, I need to have a break. Best wishes, --Zara-arush (talk) 15:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say that I was unpleasantly surprised to read your negative comments on Turks on the talk page Talk:Van Cat Naming Controversy. It would be a good idea to read non-Armenian historic sources in order to have a more NPOV. Even better, if you have chance go and visit Turkey and find few Turkish friends who can help you to look at this issue from the different angle. --Poltergeist1977 (talk) 07:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am very much surprised that you treated my comments as negative and nationalistic. And would be nice, if you, in your turn, try to read non-Turkish and non-pro-Turkish historic sources to have a more NPOV. I had been in Turkey, so thanks for the offered help of Turkish friends. I had a good friend, who had been killed, while walking along the street. --Zara-arush (talk) 22:30, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is generally a bad idea to take your ethnic hatred to talkpages supposed to discuss cat breeds. Please. If you want to discuss Armenian-Turkish or Kurdo-Turkish conflicts, Wikipedia has plenty of pages that are actually dedicated to those topics. But even there you'll need to take great care to avoid soapboxing. The internet has plenty of places where you are welcome to do that sort of thing. --dab (𒁳) 09:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Mr Dbachmann, I am not intended to discuss ethnics relations in the articles about cats or other animals. But there are users that did all to change the theme of the discussion about the cat breed that I consider is endangered. But none of the users entered into the discussion of genetic matters and cat breeding. And moreover, there are unregistered editors, who try to enter their changes in the cat breed article, because they do not want that the information on the traditions of other nations (the one that created the indigenous breed and the other that preserved the breed, before the breed was recognized by cat fancy organizations) be published in the article. To understand, what I mean, please read the discussion pages of two articles. And if you read the discussion at my page, you will see that I stopped the discussion on ethnic matters and genocide, if it related to the cat breed article.--Zara-arush (talk) 16:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Yalens kid, greetings on your first school day! You look like a good student, so go on with your hard learning by heart, it is useful at the initial stages of education. Luck, --Zara-arush (talk) 09:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Haha, thanks... just curious, how old are you? (I wouldn't have expected we had a huge difference in age, but...)--Yalens (talk) 21:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Доброго времени суток, обращаюсь к вам с просьбой в написании статьи про армянский ковер в ру.вики, вы как я понял хорошо владеете английским...и если вас не затруднит, то не могли бы найти материалы про армянские ковры на других языках( желательно научные работы)?--Lori-m (talk) 18:56, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

я уже пишу статью в ру.вики русскоязычные инет ресурсы я почти все посмотрел, поэтому хотел бы найти инфу на других языках, буду признателен если вы хотя бы найдете и укажете мне их нахождение...желательны источники говорящие о квалификации армянских ковров и школах производства(т.е чем одна отличается от другой) PS статья в рувики обещает быть большой, потом ее можно будет в перевести на английский--Lori-m (talk) 20:41, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

посмотреть русский вариант можно здесь здесь, правда готовы только 2 раздела, вернее 1й про античность а вот про средневековье я планирую еще добавить))) сейчас занимаюсь переработкой русских архивных данных, пытаюсь найти что-то подходящее. проблема в том что нигде нет классификации и описания школ, картину об армянских коврах приходится воссоздавать по кусочкам--Lori-m (talk) 20:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

а что именно вы хотите в ставить? у вас есть ссылка?--Lori-m (talk) 21:46, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

этот ученный очень известен, в своей книге восточные ковры выкушенной в 1998 году, он даже предположил что армянские ковры были предтечей персидских))) но книгу я эту достать не могу{{-(}}..бари гишер--Lori-m (talk) 21:59, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

позже можно будет объеденить ту инфу кот-ю вы внесли в статью, часть ее можно будет добавить в античность а часть в другие разделы)--Lori-m (talk) 09:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

к античности потому, что не хочется сильно дробить статью на мелкие кусочки))...возник вопрос, кот-й в принципе меня и раньше волновал как называются ворсовые и без ворсовые ковры, согласно некоторым источникам слово горг это синоним слова карпет, вот с эти было бы не плохо разобраться PS а тема действительно интересная , кот-я обещает быть самой большой русскоязычной статьей про армянский ковры--Lori-m (talk) 12:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

я переработал ваш материал, вернее разместил думаю не плохо получилось--Lori-m (talk) 13:53, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

доброго времени суток не могли бы вы перевести раздел азия и кавказ]--Lori-m (talk) 13:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

на странице обсуждение нашей статьи идет обсуждение, начала его стоило ожидать)))--Lori-m (talk) 10:45, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

не за что, всегда к вашим услугам--Lori-m (talk) 11:41, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

еще нашел вот эту вот статью на английском, по моему она будет очень позновательна и думаю пригодится нам...найти бы книгу "Ковры армянской ССР" и Rugs and Carpets from the Caucasus. The Russian Collections [Kerimov L., Stepanian N., Grigolya T., Tsitsishvili D.]. London-Leningrad, Penguin Books - Aurora Art Publishers, 1984 особенно интересуют страницы с 100 по 129-ю--Lori-m (talk) 10:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

вот советую поставить закладку "следить", Арм-АЗ конфликты разбирают там ,в частности и что касается нашего ковра --Lori-m (talk) 11:29, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

у нас возникли проблемы, по разделу древность идет дискуссия в обсуждении--Lori-m (talk) 14:56, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your welcome, xD? I guess I should check on it every now and then, though lately, I've been rather busy with work and whatnot. Though, we could discuss putting a lock on the page if theirs rather persistent vandals.

As for English, well, the spelling is so inconsistent, and the written language really doesn't represent the spoken one well at all. In spoken English, there are 17-18 vowels (18 if you speak with the rhotic schwa before an r), not counting diphthongs, and there are only 5 in the Latin alphabet (as Latin had only 5). I've seen spelling errors in published books even, and grammar much more, especially with the weirdness of commas.--Yalens (talk) 16:22, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. It's nice to meet you. I love Armenians! I was wondering if you would mind giving your opinion on the Semitic. Most Armenians and Most ethnic Iranians are an Indo-European Aryan people. The user Ian.thomson (talk) has a particular vendetta against me from the Magi page, and basically stalked me onto the Semitic page. I removed the information about Iranians, Armenians and Anatolians as being Semitic. The references used were based on one study done, which doesn't even take into consideration that many ethnic Aryan Iranians are now living in Europe and the U.S. due to the Revolution. Also, ethnic Iranians now barely make up 51% of the population, and the Kurdish Iranians are different than Kurds living in Arab countries. The study attempts to show that people of our countries have semitic ties due to similar mediterranean strains in the DNA. However, this is not widely accepted among scholars and anthropologists, and the mediterranean strain in Arab DNA is just that, from the mediterranean peoples. You could make the stretch that Spanish, French, and Greek are semitic as well by this guy's logic. Iranians are 88% or higher Indo-European, with some Mongol admixture here and there, but that can be said for Eastern Europe and some other European countries as well. Caucasians, Indo-Europeans come from the Caucus Steppes. Aryans are from the Ukraine region. Most of us, Iranians and Armenians are like Macedonians, Greeks, Anatolians - we are white, but Eurasian if you will, technically speaking. We are both cousins to Celts, Germans, Slavs, Greeks, etc. We are a mix of Nordic, mediterranean, Alpine, etc. We have less Nordic DNA than Northern European countries, but we're Indo-European. Also, many in the far west of Iran are not even ethnic Iranians but Arabs living in Iran or Arab-Iranians. Some of the far Southern Iranians are descendants of slaves and are not ethnic Iranians. Northern and Central Iranians are Aryan. Ian.thomson seems to think there is no big deal when discussing culture vs race, but you probably know that both our communities are very insular.

It would be nice to get an Armenian point of view since this concerns Armenians as well as Iranians. Semitic people are Arab or Jewish, not Iranian, Armenian, Greek, etc. Thanks for taking the time to read this. If I can be of any assistance to you on any pages, please let me know. I am interested in Armenian history and am doing historical research on my own. It's really a shame that I never knew about the Armenian Genocide until I was submitting for an Armenian student film when I was living in L.A. as an actress. God Bless. --CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 21:21, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed your presence on the Semitic page. CreativeSoul7981 has this idea that I am following her out of spite, despite the fact that I have only interacted with her on the Magi and Semitic articles and have a history of lurking about those kinds of articles. The source she removed doesn't conclude that Armenians and Iranians are Semitic, but they and Northern Semites have some genetic similarities demonstrating that they have common ancestors. That's all. Any help will be appreciated. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:40, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Funny to find you on here. And still claiming that debunked so-called scientific papers are real sources with merit. Going by the controversial logic, you might as well claim all people with mediterranean DNA are semitic; Greeks, French, Spanish, etc.--CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 06:50, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To Zara-arush: By genetic similarities, I mean they found that certain parts of the genetic code matched up enough they concluded it wasn't coincidence. To CreativeSoul: You found that a different paper by only 1 of the 28 scientists was debunked. If that applied, that would debunk only 1 of the 3 studies. By the same reasoning, anything from Oxford, or at least anything from Zaehner, would be inappropriate because you disagree with one sentence of Zaehner's. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:13, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are certainly other possible explanations, natural selection could have made those genetic markers a bit more favorable, but the relative proximity of the folks involved made common ancestry likely. If there are any sources for additional explanations, that'd be good. While it was only one fact, it was a fact that was repeated multiple times over three different studies. Any studies with differing or even opposite conclusions would be good additions to the article. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:00, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Happy New Year and Holidays (do you call it Christmas? xD) to you too (I celebrate Christmas, but not in a Christian way; I get a Christmas tree and all, but there's little mention if any of Jesus, and my family has revived some pagan elements like decorating the tree with cloved oranges in addition to bells and stars). I hope the New Year has good things in store for us both~. --Yalens (talk) 13:35, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Azeris? Feh, Azeris aren't Turks, and they don't act like Turks either, I think. I agree, if its about Karabakh, that Karabakh/Artsakh/whateveryoucallit has the right to secede and that the Azeri treatment of the province is contemptible, but at the same time, I think it was completely unnecessary for the Armenian army to devastate Agdam, which is clearly in Azeri territory and is clearly not inhabited by Armenians. If it weren't for Agdam, I think there wouldn't be nearly as much anti-Armenian propaganda out there, mainly because they'd have little to back up their case. I still think Armenia was in the right in that war, but that doesn't mean that the country is a shining angel in war. Of course, I have my certain suspicions that Russia has much more of a hand in these conflicts in the South Caucasus than people may be aware of, and it is quite possible, in my uneducated-on-this-certain-war-and-yet-*very*-cynical mind, that Russia was behind the attack on Agdam by Armenia, but nonetheless, there's no proof... yet. It's just the type of thing Russia would do- divide and rule. Russia, I think, wants to keep the Azeris and Armenians hating each other so that they can eventually conquer both countries back one day in the future. Georgia versus Abkhazia or Ossetia is another example of this... the whole Georgian v. Abkhaz conflict is completely Russian-invented... I do hope that there may one day be peace between Armenia and Azerbaijan, not just for the reason of containing Russia, but also because randomly killing each other unnecessarily is horrible for everyone and good for only a few people. --Yalens (talk) 16:40, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can't help you with Russian Wiki, because my knowledge of Russian vocabulary is only in the double-digits, so... And... if it were English, you'd have to show me what the edit was.

Do you mind if you can get your hands on this document? 07:19, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I just need you to get that document, send to me and I can take care of the rest. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:18, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't understand your message. What does Legion mean ? Does it mean Armenian armed forces ? Jaloyan (talk) 20:41, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It might be easier to help in your search for this early 20th Century photographer, who visited Turkey, if you could say a little bit about him or how you found out about him (there are too many Paul Böhms around).--Radh (talk) 17:51, 13 April 2010 (UTC) The photographer def. (ru-WP image caption) was Munich photographer and photo publisher (Verleger) Joseph Paul Böhm. The "Staatliche Graphische Sammlung München" seems to have his picture-archives (or a part of it); you may also try the "Stadtmuseum München".--Radh (talk) 07:02, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- and I have your translation on my page, if you want it.

There is a writting mistake. Bacou should be Bakou.

So this is the caption of the picture which says : "[here are] the muslims killed and the consul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consul_%28representative%29) coming [here] in order to see their cadavers."

And in arabic letters, but in farsi (iranian language), the sentence says the same thing, but it is said that the consul is from Iran.

Jaloyan (talk) 06:53, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please, confirm, if the following is correct translation: "The murderous Muslims at Baku and the consul who comes to see the corpses".

And please check once more, because I got the following comment also: One note, though, assassines (there should be an accent on the last e) I translated as "murderous", Assassines usually means the person IS a murderer, i.e. that they have already murdered plenty of people". Please reply, if French writing translated as the murderer or as murdered, why there is an accent on the last -e. --Zara-arush (d) 17 avril 2010 à 12:50 (CEST)

Murderous is not the exact traduction, it is a past participe, so it should be : "The murdered muslims and the consul who comes (in order) to see their corpses". But you can replace who comes by coming. Jaloyan (talk) 10:56, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I know, it drives me crazy. If they don't reply to my little lecture in the talk page, I'm just going to put Northern Kurdistan and Western Armenia (and Eastern Republic of Turkey) up again.

Though, that brings me to the other topic- Nakh placenames in Armenia. You asked me about these awhile back, I think I gave you a pretty good list (there is also the Arax valley being from the Nakh people of the Ersh originally, who gave their name to the city of Eribuni (*Er+*bun+*i= home of the Ersh), i.e. Yerevan). Nakhichevan (Nakhitshebuni) wasn't in any book I've read, but its just so glaring obvious, I mean really. It has the roots of Noxchi (nakh+che) and the bun (shifted to van). That also makes sense considering that the Georgians used to call Chechens Dzurdzuks, for the city of Durdzukka near Nakhichevan. And there we have Urartu as a Nakh (although not Chechen, but closely related) civilization. The only thing I don't like is that every now and then these crazy ultranationalists (I believe we all have them) try to pretend that Nakh comes from Noah and that the Urartian roots thing is somehow proof, because it shows that Chechens came from Ararat. It makes no sense of course: as the user Nakh stated, if you believe in the myth of Noah (which I don't), then EVERYONE, not just Chechens, are descended from Noah. The other version is that Chechen is somehow proven to be the "original language" or some other bullshit like that- even though there is proof that Chechen, like all languages, has changed over time, starting with the fact that Ingush, formerly a dialect, is now a separate language. And worse still, if the "Nokh" (from Nakh) in Chechen comes from Noah, it would be rather funny as Noah is a Semitic name, and Chechens are clearly not a Semitic people, we weren't even Muslim fully until Russia's invasion forced us to convert for the sake of survival, and even today, we follow old rites... if there even was a Noah in Chechen lore (there are some approximates, yes), we never called him Noah. But I still believe we came from Urartu, as there is considerable evidence, genetic, linguistic, in the Georgian Chronicles, etc. (I've been working on incorporating this into History of Chechnya).

And, Eurovision. Armenia was good this year as always, kudos from me (not my favorite though, and I still think Sirusho in '08 was way better xD). --Yalens (talk) 23:39, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

xD. I believe I told you I don't buy a word of the Noah thing, don't worry. (And also, we should note that, civilization evolved on the Euphrates and Tigris rivers long before the Jews or any Semitic people in the Middle East for that matter set foot outside the Arabian desert) --Yalens (talk) 00:16, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi I am available to help you out with any translations. Feel free to email me if you think I may be of help. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 03:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per your request I translated two of the quatrains. I tried to strike a balance between the literal translation (which might lose its meaning in English) and the conceptual meaning (which would just be the translator's interpretation of the poet). In other words, poetry cannot be translated perfectly from one language to another without losing some of its meaning. But hope those two examples are okay. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 15:46, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Joy of the assembly is also a good translation. I found two books that have some English translations. I'll write both the original Persian and English. Will also add the information you requested in the article. Thanks for your interest.--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 22:57, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please, translate this text: Զյիշատակ Ազիզ տիկնոջդաւ Թիլուսիկ կոյլաւեան ծնունդ մհի պաղտասարի ամուսնացեալ'ի Պօթշան ընկա՛լո՛վ տէր եկեղեցի քո հոմորի նորափայլ. Cezarika1 (talk) 05:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"To the memory of Lusik Koylawean, beloved wife of Dawit', daughter of Paghtasar, who was married in Po't'shan. Oh Lord, accept this Your resplendent Church in Homori".-- Zara-arush (talk) 20:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, hey, I haven't heard from you in awhile... I'm very busy this week, so I will try to get to it next week... my French isn't perfect, but I'll do my best, probably consult someone else for mistakes (so I don't mess you up again like I did last time, sorry about that)... the whole letter, I'll translate, if I understand you properly, right?--Yalens (talk) 00:30, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've started the translation... Erzerouin is Erzurum, I think... --Yalens (talk) 15:27, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am translating it at User:Yalens/Letter translation; there seem to be typos in the letter, for example when the later says A'Angora, I think its the type leaving out a space and l- it could à Angora or perhaps a l'Angora ("at Angora")... Google translation made a lot of mistakes I see. For example, it says n'existaient means could, but it in fact means lived, pretty much. It is usually n'existaient pas- literally, did not live... but then again my French is far from mastery, and it could be a grammatical function I have not heard of. Still, I think that means did not live as n' (ne) indicates the negative.--Yalens (talk) 15:36, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a search with the contents of Azhdahak (volcano), and it appears to be very similar to another Wikipedia page: Azhdahak. It is possible that you have accidentally duplicated contents, or made an error while creating the page— you might want to look at the pages and see if that is the case. If you are intentionally trying to rename an article, please see Help:Moving a page for instructions on how to do this without copying and pasting. If you are trying to move or copy content from one article to a different one, please see Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia and be sure you have acknowledged the duplication of material in an edit summary to preserve attribution history.

It is possible that the bot is confused and found similarity where none actually exists. If that is the case, you can remove the tag from the article. CorenSearchBot (talk) 18:53, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you recently tried to give Azhdahak a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into another page with a different name. This is known as a "cut and paste move", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history, which is needed for attribution and various other purposes. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be moved to a new title together with their edit history.

In most cases, once your account is four days old and has ten edits, you should be able to move an article yourself using the "Move" tab at the top of the page. This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a redirect from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at requested moves to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at Wikipedia:Cut and paste move repair holding pen. Thank you. VernoWhitney (talk) 12:34, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'm not sure what you were asking about this article. Often a reference to a goddess of prostitution in ancient history is about sacred prostitution, which has nothing to do with modern prostitution. I hope that helps. USchick (talk) 21:03, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I read your comments in Russian on the discussion page of Azerbaijani article Anais. I agree with you that they are using questionable sources. In my experience, when I care about an article that much, I simply register as a user in that language and make the change myself. I encourage you to follow the time honored Wikipedia principle Wikipedia:Be bold and make the change yourself instead of trying to get other editors to make the change for you. Based on your discussion page there, you already made your case. The worst that can happen is that your edits will be reverted and then you can continue to pursue your cause as far as you wish, getting a consensus in that language. Your contribution as an editor is just as valuable as anyone else's, so don't let anyone intimidate you. As long as you follow Wiki procedure and don't get emotional about it, your rational and sustained effort will pay off in the end. You don't need anyone's permission to do what you think needs to be done. Good luck! :-) Feel free to consult with me in the future if you'd like. If it makes you feel better, I've had some very heated debates with what I can only imagine are very learned men of religion, but if they can't support their personal opinions, guess what... they have to adhere to the policy just like everyone else or go away! :-) USchick (talk) 15:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

: Also, I did not read the entire reference of Чезаре Ломброзо, it talks about prostitution in general, but does it name Anais by name? If so, what are his sources? I did not see anything that supports the claim that Anais is a goddess of prostitution. Inaccurate and unsupported information does not belong in Wikipedia. USchick (talk) 16:03, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted your edit to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, as it seemed to have deleted a significant amount of the content of the page. You may wish to try editing again, without deleting the existing content. David Biddulph (talk) 09:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. As I know you are interested in carpets. Could you please look here. --Quantum666 (talk) 10:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you still want it? Because I haven't been doing it since you gave me the other translations... but if you still want my translation, I can continue working on it... I just didn't think it was necessary anymore really. Do you still want it though?--Yalens (talk) 14:06, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So, if I'm right, you want this (the translation) on the page because it more or less supports your theory of the cats being in the area long before the Turkish language was there. Right? Well, I've put it on the talk page... how would you suggest integrating it onto the page. Should we just use it for citation, or should we put it in quotes? --Yalens (talk) 15:02, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re your question at no-wp: Sølvfaks is ususally a horse-name meaning "silvercolored mane", but it may also humorously be used about greyhaired people. Regards, GAD (talk) 08:33, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome. Figuring out the templates for citations takes some getting used to. If we had English translations of the titles of those websites, they probably should be put in, and it would improve the article event more. Happy editing. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:14, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

World Digital Library Wikipedia Partnership - We need you!

Hi Zara-arush! I'm the Wikipedian In Residence at the World Digital Library, a project of the Library of Congress and UNESCO. I'm recruiting Wikipedians who are passionate about history & culture to participate in improving Wikipedia using the WDL's vast free online resources. Participants can earn our awesome WDL barnstar and help to disseminate free knowledge from over 100 libraries in 7 different languages. Multilingual editors are welcome! (But being multilingual is not a requirement.) Please sign up to participate here. Thanks for editing Wikipedia and I look forward to working with you! SarahStierch (talk) 00:08, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Zara-arush, I'm contacting you because we need some Armenian translators to help with the deployment of the new VisualEditor on hy.wikipedia. There are help pages, user guides, and description pages that need translating, as well as the interface itself. The translating work is going on over on MediaWiki: Translation Central. I also need assistance with a personal message for the Armenian Wikipedians. If you are able to help in any way, either reply here, or head over to TranslationCentral. Thanks for your time, PEarley (WMF) (talk) 16:49, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:52, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please keep your personal political diatribes off the Talk Pages - which are not to be used as a forum for expressing personal views but for the discussion of RS's for the improvement of the articles. If you've 'swallowed the kool-aid' about Psaki, then feel free to go stump for her on a platform outside of Wiki. 50.111.58.135 (talk) 15:39, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]