Sorry, text will be here shortly Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:01, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Voceditenore (talk) 14:36, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Lisaby. I have restored the previous decline notice and reviewer's comment, which you have now removed twice. Please do not remove them again. They must remain until the draft is accepted. I have also removed the templates submitting this draft for another review. It has no references at all and has not been improved since the last decline. It would be failed immediately. This simply wastes the time of reviewers and increases the waiting time for others who have submitted improved drafts. Please do not submit this draft again until it has been improved and you have addressed the reviewer's concerns. When you feel you have done so, simply press the blue "Resubmit button" in the decline notice, but do not remove the notice itself or the previous comments. They will be removed if/when the article is eventually accepted and moved into article space. Voceditenore (talk) 13:22, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Voceditenore. I didn't realise that this happened. I even wonder if it wasn't a chat helper who might have done it by accident when he consulted my page in an attempt to help me. I consulted the chat for help with references which weren't appearing in the article. In response to my question as to whether my use of numeric reference names might be the cause of the problem, the helper said no. It turns out that he was wrong. I'm in the process of adding 45 references to the article. Nevertheless, I've lost all optimism (but not hope) about the article being accepted. I respect Wikipedia's standards. It may turn out that my best efforts just aren't good enough. We'll see.Lisaby 14:48, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Lisaby, you are going about this article a little backwards. What it needs is a concisely written biography in encyclopedic style with enough high quality references to establish her notability, i.e., the key leading roles and the recordings. Instead you are documenting every single performance, something not even done for someone like Joan Sutherland or Maria Callas. You're also having a lot of trouble formatting the massive number of footnotes in them and many of them still inappropriate—self-published websites, online record retailers, etc. The other problem is that the tables simply state the city, when they should be stating the opera house.

I have a proposal. I'll write what's required on the draft without the tables and move it into article space. You will still be listed in the history as the article's creator. You copy the tables to your user space and work on them until they are in an acceptable state, and then add them to the article, although frankly I think it's a waste of your time, and if they are a mess or still referenced inappropriately, other editors are likely to revert them or tag the article for clean up. Let me know what you think. Voceditenore (talk) 16:58, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again, Voceditenore,

Thank you for your offer which I'll put on hold.

In my first two attempts at Wikipedia bios, I wrote the text first and then tried to attach references. Both got shot down.

With this third attempt, I decided to start with the facts first and then find the references to back them up, rejecting any unreferenced facts.

Personally, I'm allergic to Wikipedia musician biographies which are fully textual. They strike me as an incomplete and unordered mass of facts. That's why I chose the tabular approach which is clean, internally complete and lean.

I've invested so much time trying to produce this v. 2 of the bio and I'm so far advanced that I'm reluctant to put it aside for the approach you propose. I prefer to do my thing and then get shot down relative to my work. After an ex post damage assessment, I may take up your offer.

I think that I should be finished tomorrow. I'll let you know when I am.

Incidentally, I studied linguistics in a doctoral program at Harvard with the outstanding opportunity to attend Chomsky's three hour lectures at M.I.T. In fact, he was willing for me to come to M.I.T., but Harvard was more my style. Totally by accident, I was diverted by management consulting which was a better fit for me. Accordingly, I never wrote my dissertation.

Okey Dokey. Just be aware though, that once it goes into article space, it may well be significantly changed by other editors. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 09:31, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Voceditenore, You can sharpen your knife. I'm about to submit the v. 2 of the Marianelli bio.Lisaby 04:05, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I see that the vast majority of your references are still very poor quality actually. You have relied heavily on self-published opera sites with amateur reviewers, e.g GBOpera, OperaClick, Online Musik Magazin, Der Opern Freund, ForumOpera, Il Corriere della Grisi, etc. You have also tried to use Wikipedia articles as references, which is completely unacceptable as are references to commercial sites selling recordings. I will personally not move the draft into article space in that state. If it is moved, it will be tagged for extensive clean-up. Voceditenore (talk) 10:02, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Voceditenore, Thank you for your rapid reply. I thought that a Wikipedia article would be considered impeccable. I've replaced both references to Wikipedia articles. The only thing that I can think of to improve the quality, i.e. by performing additional research, is to find the reviews excerpted on the Presto Classical site, but they too risk being by amateur reviewers.

Despite:

- Marianelli's experience over the last 13 years in works ranging over time from Monteverdi to Rota,

- and geographically from Britten to Mussorgsky,

- nearly 100% favourable reveiws (the French review of Fiorilla being the exception),

- her roles as Fiorilla, Juliette, Pamina, Serpina and Zoraide,

- her forthcoming CD as Zoraide,

based on yours and FoCuSandLeArN's comments, I feel that the basic problem with her biography is a lack of notability. With the 51 references of this v. 2, I feel that I've tried as hard as I can to meet Wikipedia's standards. I accept the fact that the quality of my references is not up to Wikipedia standards. I'll wait for her to appear on top level stages before attempting a v. 3.

Please feel free to follow up on your proposal to salvage something from my draft. Don't worry about my not being cited. I wrote the bio because I feel that Marianelli is full of talent. I'm prepared to wait for the big hitters of the opera world to catch up with me - or perhaps to retain nothing more that a pleasant memory of the work I've done, of all I've learned, and of my contacts with FoCuSandLeArN, Marianelli and you.

• Hi Lisaby. The problem wasn't that she isn't notable, but that the way the draft was referenced and structured didn't show that. If the majority of sources are not what Wikipedia considers reliable and independent, and if the text of the article itself doesn't contain sufficient biographical information which can be independently sourced, it will run into big trouble and even taken to a deletion discussion. It would eventually be saved but not without emergency post hoc repair. So here's what I did. I moved your draft into article space. You'll find it at Alessandra Marianelli with you as the article's creator. I then wrote a brief biography and referenced it with articles and reviews in reliable sources, including quite a lengthy piece on her in La Repubblica, just before her debut as Musetta in Florence. I kept your Recordings table, but used entirely different ("proper") sources as references. The table isn't quite right in terms of its code, but I can't figure out how to fix it. It looks OK, but at the bottom of the article it's listed in Category:Articles using the table template incorrectly. For now, I've removed the performances tables because they still need a lot of work, both in terms of the formatting and the kinds of references used. They are potentially very useful though. I suggest you paste copies of those in your user space and continue to work on them. If you need help in setting up the table page in your user space, just let me know. Finally, Marianelli and I have one thing in common. We were both invited to Juan Diego Flórez's wedding. She went. I didn't, although my sons told me I was crazy not to go. Voceditenore (talk) 18:30, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again Voceditenore. First of all, thank you very much for rescuing the article. I really appreciate what you did. If you permit, I'll tell Alessandra about you and the Flórez wedding.

I didn't dare include the info on her studies, etc. because I couldn't find a good source for them. I observe that the names of her teachers, etc. don't appear in the La Bohème article you cite. But so much the better, it fleshes out the bio.

Of your references:

- I was unable to find good sources like The Telegraph, the Spiro Argiris competiton, Caretas, RAI 3 and Scherzo. I wonder how you go about doing it.

- I would have been unable to recognise The Stage and High Beam as being of better quality than my references, but I'm very new to all this and I don't read about opera. (I have so much to learn that I spend all my available time discovering new operas and new productions with DVD's.)

- a couple of them don't mention Marianelli (Cineteca di Bologna and a High Beam review of a Turco production with Myrtò Papatanasiu at Genoa), but - as above - that doesn't bother me in the least.

I don't see any code problems with the table.

I'm more or less exhausted by my work of the last week. If you've looked at my User Page, you'll see that my major project is Les Vrais Mecs which is the newest of some 88 organisations around the world of men against sexual violence (International Directory of Organisations of Men against Sexual Violence) and seemingly the only one with an approach aimed at eradicating rape rather than doing lots of communication consisting of preaching to the choir, with everyone feeling very virtuous afterward, but with probably no reduction of rape.

If I'm launching this at my ripe old age, it's because of a horrible story of rape in my immediate circle which came to light a few months ago.

You may wonder why I chose Marianelli for my third Wikipedia attempt. In her case, like that of Sylvia Schwartz, I became so carried away with enthusiasm upon seeing her performance that I wished to be able to enter into contact with her. Like Eisenstein with his gold watch in Fledermaus, I used the proposal of a Wikipedia biography to get there. Not very serious musically, but personally very satisfying.

Tonight she opens in Monte Carlo in Haydn's Il mondo della luna.

Best wishes,

Basil Carmody

P.S. I see that you too were at Harvard and I don't know (and don't care about) your gender.

Hi there, I'm HasteurBot. I just wanted to let you know that Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Nagle Jackson, a page you created, has not been edited in 6 months. The Articles for Creation space is not an indefinite storage location for content that is not appropriate for articlespace.

If your submission is not edited soon, it could be nominated for deletion. If you would like to attempt to save it, you will need to improve it.

You may request Userfication of the content if it meets requirements.

If the deletion has already occured, instructions on how you may be able to retrieve it are available at WP:REFUND/G13.

Thank you for your attention. HasteurBot (talk) 01:30, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Lisaby. It has been over six months since you last edited your WP:AFC draft article submission, entitled "Nagle Jackson".

The page will shortly be deleted. If you plan on editing the page to address the issues raised when it was declined and resubmit it, simply and remove the {{db-afc}} or {{db-g13}} code. Please note that Articles for Creation is not for indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace.

If your submission has already been deleted by the time you get there, and you want to retrieve it, copy this code: {{subst:Refund/G13|Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Nagle Jackson}}, paste it in the edit box at , click "Save page", and an administrator will in most cases undelete the submission.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. HasteurBot (talk) 04:01, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Cousin. Didn't intend to reveal my hand there... --Wetman (talk) 20:03, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]