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The draft for this article was created after an IP editor posted at the Teahouse. See WP:Teahouse#Add a page? Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:50, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The lead section should be a concise summary of the article, not a repetition of bits of the article. This article's lead section should be rewritten in a summary style. See MOS:LEAD for purpose of the lead. It should provide an accessible overview of the whole article. It should not repeat the information in the article word for word, nor should it introduce new information. See WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY, too. The length of the lead also needs to be balanced against the length of the article. While a featured article might have a lead of between 250 and 400 words, that would be an upper limit. A Start-class article might only need a lead that is between 100 to 250 words long to summarize the article. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 04:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC) Edited 07:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Cameron Dewe I agree and had already sought advice about that from User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång (see User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång#New draft) just after I wrote it yesterday. However, his reply suggested it was going to be difficult to trim and I decided to move the draft to mainspace, where it can be shortened to be more inline with MOS:LEAD. If you would like to be the one to do that, please go ahead. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:21, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, I don't think my lead introduces anything not in the body, except the DOB, which I'm hoping to include in an "Early life" section when I find decent sources for that. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Michael D. Turnbull: My comment about "new information" is about what any lead should not contain - I encounter too many lead sections where people add new information into the lead, without adding the same to the article. As far as I can tell, your lead doesn't say anything not in the article. There is a real art to writing a good lead and I am encouraged you have sought advice from another editor. However, I suspect your inability to find decent sources for an "Early life" section are symptomatic with a larger problem with this biography. Unfortunately, the subject is not "independently" notable and is only notable because he has been convicted of the murder of another person. While, WP:BLP1E might not exactly apply, it is very similar to the situation here, as the coverage is all about the subject in the context of the murder. That means the guideline about crimes and their perpetrators also applies. I think Wikipedia should start with an article about the murder, (an event) and its consequences for the subject, then see if a separate biography is really needed. This isn't the first article I have encountered where the perpetrator is not the focus of a Wikipedia article, despite playing a major role in it. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 19:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have no strong opinion on if the subject should be Kensu or the murder, I don't write about crime a lot (though I've stumbled on it when writing about teddy-bears). The argument for Kensu, I think, is the long "I'm innocent" part of the story. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would have no strong objection if the article were to be moved to Murder of Scott Macklem, and for the moment I'm going to make that a redirect. However, in researching the article I was struck by the WP:SUSTAINED aspect. Many BLP1E articles have sources from around the time of the event which describe e.g. the crime, trial and conviction. Virtually all the sources used in this article come from 2010 or later, and in increasing depth, because for example people including a senator and two members of congress have gone on record as saying this is a miscarriage of justice. I suspect that is how it will be seen long-term. Note that Kensu more recently won his habeus case and received $325,000 in damages from MDOC for how he has been treated in prison, both of which were WP:GNG events, IMO. (These comments are the same as I would have made to your following thread, User:Cameron Dewe). Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:34, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Michael D. Turnbull: I think the reason the sources date from 2010, onwards, is because with the trial dating from 1986, most of the sources of the time would be in printed newspapers. Those reports would pre-date the internet, so unless one is able to find contemporary sources, all one is left with are the sources that are documenting Kensu's appeals or advocating his innocence. About the best source I can find for Scott [Arnold] Macklem is a Find-a-Grave entry, which contains a newspaper clipping for which the source is not identified. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 11:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have found multiple sources at newspapers.com, who cover the local newspapers in Michigan. I'm waiting for full access via TWL to be able to cite them more than I've already done. Meanwhile, I've trimmed the lead to about 180 words. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Michael D. Turnbull: Where is the article about the "murder of Scott Macklem"? If the subject of this article is truly notable because he has been wrongly convicted of Scott Macklem's murder, then there ought to be an Wikipedia article about that murder as well. The Wikipedia guideline about crimes and criminals known for a single crime is that a "... person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person." The guideline goes on to say that a person who is wrongly convicted can have their own biography provided this is consistent with the guideline about people notable for one event. However, in this case the allegations of wrongful conviction have been rejected, so far, so this article should be written as event-based article about the murder of Scott Macklem and deal with the conviction of the subject, wrongful or otherwise, within the wider context of the murder of the victim. The two are inextricably linked and if one excludes the non-biographical information about the subject's conviction, pretty much all one is left with is his name(s), date and place of birth, and the fact he has changed his name because he has become a buddhist. This article is an article about a murder, trial and conviction of the subject that is masquerading as a biography. The article places undue weight on the murder, trial, conviction and appeals, without being a balanced and well-rounded biography of the subject, who is not really a public figure, as there is precious little other publicly available information about this person that I can find. Were it not for him being convicted and repeatedly appealing that conviction and having supporters claiming it is wrongful, this person would probably not be notable. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 06:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• ... that although nine alibi witnesses placed Temujin Kensu over 400 miles from a shooting in Port Huron, Michigan in November 1986, he was convicted of murder and has been in prison ever since?

• ALT1: ... that after Temujin Kensu was convicted of murder in 1987 and sentenced to life imprisonment, a juror told the press that "his alibi was too perfect"? Source: Brown, John F. (1987-05-19). "Freeman jury verdict took 5 votes". The Times Herald. Port Huron. p. 3 – via newspapers.com.
• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Jindřich Marco
• Comment: Earwig shows some overlap with sources owing to use of verbatim quotes.

Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC).[reply]