Talk:Pope Pius XII

Pope Pius XII is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.

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Alleged reference

Pacelli presided as Papal Legate over the International Eucharistic Congress in Buenos Aires, Argentina in 10–14 October 1934, and in Budapest in 25–30 May 1938.^[1] At this time, anti-semitic laws were in the process of being formulated in Hungary. Pacelli made reference to the Jews "whose lips curse [Christ] and whose hearts reject him even today".^[2]^[3]^[4]

Aside the fact that the quote is from what is at least a ternary source (because I assume the quote is faithful), as well as the question whether the pope knew anti-semitic laws were "being formulated" in Hungary at the same time, I don't think that the source proves that that the pope referred to Jews, but it explicitly denies that he made a direct reference, and this much is clear from the quote in the source:

Jesus conquers! He who so often was the recipient of the rage of his enemies, he who suffered the persecutions of those of whom he was one, he shall be triumphant in the future as well As opposed to the foes of Jesus, who cried out to his face, "Crucify him!"—we sing him hymns of our loyalty and our love. We act in this fashion, not out of bitterness, not out of a sense of superiority, not out of arrogance toward those whose lips curse him and whose hearts reject him even today

At the very least, the reference in the article should be reformulated to express doubt. I would prefer it to be expressed as an opinion of the author of the tertiary source unless there are others that independently agree. Paxcoder (talk) 20:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cardinal Pacelli was not the Papal Nuncio to Argentina nor to Budapest. He was the Vatican's equivalent to Secretary of State. He was number two to Pope Pius XI whom the Nazis and Communists didn't want to become Pope. That's why they tried to assassinate him. They even tried to assassinate him when he became Pope Pius XII but the Papal security stopped all such attempts. It is dishonest to claim he was a supporter of the Nazis. 2603:9000:6213:3A00:C9F4:22A6:3346:1180 (talk) 02:23, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Marchione, 2002, p. 22
^ Christian responses to the Holocaust: moral and ethical issues: Religion, theology, and the Holocaust, Donald J. Dietrich, p. 92, Syracuse University Press, 2003; ISBN 0-8156-3029-8
^ {{cite web}}: Empty citation (help)
^ {{cite web}}: Empty citation (help)

Birthtime of Pope Pius XII

3:08 AM (02:08 GMT) was a probable birthtime of Pope Pius XII. Birthtimes and deathtimes are important because of the differences of timezones. The standard time of Wikipedia is GMT, not including DST.

189.98.244.242 (talk) 13:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Historical error

"Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor on 30 January 1933 and sought to gain international respectability and to remove internal opposition by representatives of the church and the Catholic Centre Party. He sent his vice chancellor Franz von Papen, a Catholic nobleman, to Rome to offer negotiations about a Reichskonkordat. On behalf of Pacelli, Prelate Ludwig Kaas, the outgoing chairman of the Centre Party, negotiated first drafts of the terms with Papen. The concordat was finally signed, by Pacelli for the Vatican and von Papen for Germany, on 20 July and ratified on 10 September 1933. Bishop Preysing cautioned against compromise with the new regime, against those who saw the Nazi persecution of the church as an aberration that Hitler would correct."

is incorrect on several points. The Associated Press reported in 1933 that "Goebells a minister without portfolio" signed the concordant for Germany. Hitler was not in charge of German government and hadn't even picked his staff yet. President Paul Von Hindenburg was in charge and would only agree to appoint Hitler as Chancellor if Hitler accepted the appointment of Von Papen as Vice Chancellor according to the Associated Press. The Associated Press reported that in 1934 when President Paul Von Hindenburg fell ill and was thought to be on his deathbed, Hitler arrested former Chancellors von schleicher and von Papen among other opponents of the Nazi party. The Associated Press articles of 1934 reported Hitler had von schleicher executed and was preparing to have von Papen executed as well when the President Paul von Hindenburg recovered from his illness and pleaded with Hitler to spare the life of von Papen. In 1934, the Associated Press reported that Hitler spared von Papen's life but put him under house arrest. von Papen remained under house arrest for the duration of the war. von Papen was not acting under Hitler's orders when he approached the Vatican about signing a Concordant. He acted under the authority of President Paul von Hindenburg. As Chancellor, Hitler did not have the authority to negotiate with the Vatican. In 1933, that authority was still in von Hindenburg's jurisdiction. The Concordant was not an endorsement of von Hindenburg nor was it an endorsement of Adolf Hitler. Von Papen remained under house arrest and was not convicted for war crimes at the Nuremberg trials because he was Hitler's prisoner not a participant in the government.

An interesting side note: In 1933 the Associated Press reported when Hitler was appointed Chancellor by von Hindenburg Albert Eistein resigned his Prussian citizenship and was quoted as stating "the Catholic church was the only organization telling the truth about the Nazis." HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 02:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)— HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

The AP reported in 1933? Do you have copies of the reports, or full citations other than nebulous dates? Elizium23 (talk) 19:50, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you think that Hitler didn't take immediate and total charge of the German government in 1933, you're the one guilty of historical error JHobson3 (talk) 20:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

yes. 1934 not 1935. Sorry about the mix up. I was putting them all in order yesterday by date. Discovered my memory was off by a year.

Collectively, these are copyright violations, although individually they are not - hence collapsing rather than redacting. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:47, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source 1 The Gainesville Sun (GS) Note - Newspaper printing articles day after AP date recorded here.

Source 2 The New York Times (NYT)

GS - Associated Press Article November 7, 1932 Headline: "Von Hindenburg Glad Elections Almost History".

Subheading: German President Believes Four Years of Stability Ahead; Expresses Keen Interest In Contest In The United States."

"... One of the outstanding results of the voting was that Adolf Hitler's strength dropped from 37.7 percent of the total ballots to 33 percent, and his National Socialist party delegation in the Reichstag was cut from 230 to 195."

"The Communist Reichstag membership jumped from 89 to 100, the Centrists decreased their delegation from 75 to 70, the Nationalists returned 51 against 37 in the old Reichstag, and the Socialists dropped from 133 to 121."

GS - Associated Press Article November 17, 1932 Headline: "Von Papen And Ministry Quit Post In Berlin"

"Chancellor Franz Von Papen, who has directed the German Government for a little less than six months, resigned today taking his whole cabinet out with him in the face of almost unanimous opposition in the new Reichstag. ..."

GS - Associated Press Article November 19, 1932 Headline: "Hitler Presses For Early Appointment Chancellor Germany"

"For the second time in three months, Adolf Hitler, who was a corporal in the World War, applied today to Field Marshal Paul Von Hindenburg, President of Germany, to be made Chancellor of the Reich."

"This time, in marked contrast to their meeting August 13, Hitler was invited to sit down for an hour and to talk with frank cordiality. As he departed from the president's residence, he was asked to come back for another conference next Tuesday."

GS - Associated Press Article November 21, 1932 Headline: "Adolf Hitler Gets Mandate Form Cabinet"

Subheading 1: "President Von Hindenburg However, Imposes Certain Restrictions That May Prevent Acceptance New Honors."

Subheading 2: " Limitations Set"

Subheading 3: "Must Not Tamper With Reichswehr, Emergency Decrees And Other Safeguards of Law and Order; Nazi Leader Replies."

"After nine years of striving, Adolf Hitler today received a mandate to form a cabinet, but it was under conditions which immediately at least, he could not accept. ..."

GS - Associated Press Article November 22, 1932 Headline: "Hitler Delays"

"Besieged by two groups of conflicting advisers, Adolf Hitler, leader of the National Socialist, decided today to put off until tomorrow his reply to President Von Hindenburg's reiterated conditional proffer of the chancellorship."

GS - Associated Press Photo of Adolf Hitler November 23, 1932 Top Caption: "Rejects Proposals"

Bottom Caption: "Adolf Hitler writes President Paul Von Hindenburg that restrictions placed on proffered chancellorship of Germany are too cramping to insure successful administration of the high office."

GS - Associated Press Article of Adolf Hitler November 23, 1932 Headline: "Adolf Hitler Unwilling To Accept Post"

Subheading 1: "Counter Offer"

Subheading 2: " Nazi Leader Declares He Cannot Solve German Situation on Purely Parliamentary Basis of Action."

Expected Nazi Tripe Follows

GS - Associated Press Article of Adolf Hitler November 24, 1932 Headline: "Von Hindenburg Withdraws Offer German Chancellorship To Hitler"

Subheading:"President of Republic Expresses Lack Confidence In Nazi Leader To Control Reichstag; Now Looking for Another Candidate"

"President Von Hindenburg, who offered to make Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany if he could guarantee the support of the Reichstag, withdrew that offer today and called in leaders of the other parties to consider another candidate."

"At any rate he could not command that support. The National Socialist party is the largest in the Reichstag but it is far short of a majority and Hitler could not swing the Nationalists or the Bavarian party into line."

"He told the president last night he could not control the Reichstag, but he renewed his proposal that Von Hindenburg make him head of a 'presidential' cabinet to rule without consulting the parliament."

"The president's refusal today made it plain that he has not sufficient confidence in Hitler to place him at the head of a government like that which Franz Von Papen headed, to rule solely with the presidential authority."

GS - Associated Press Article June 25, 1933 Headline: "Bomb Explodes In Vatican City; 4 Injured"

Follow the Associated Press reporting on the joint investigation by the Italian Police and the Papal gendarmerie. It is interesting and determined the target was Cardinal Pacelli. Unexploded bombs were summer of 1931, and February 13, 1932.

GS - Associated Press Article June 30, 1934. Headline: "Nazi Revolution Feared; Hitler Maintains Power After Smashing Coup"

Subheading: "Former Chancellor Von Scheicher Is Killed" "In a day of summary punishment for those who challenged his authority--the denouncement of the crisis of recent weeks hastened by the disclosure of immoral orgies indulged in by leaders of his own Nazi storm troops -- the chancellor 'liquidated' leaders of a threefold opposition; the reactionary monarchists, the 'Catholic Action" group, and the left wing storm troopers who plotted his end."

"Heinrich Klausner, leader of the 'Catholic Action' group was shot to death". — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) 17:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC) — HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

GS - Associated Press Article July 1, 1934. Headline: "... To Purge Nazi Party"

Paul von Hindenburg gravely ill. Purge begins. von Papen placed under house arrest. "When reports of the calling together of physicians reached Berlin the rumor was quickly revived that von Hindenburg had written a 'political will' naming the conservative von Papen as his successor and enjoining the army, always faithful to the president, to help him if necessary". — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) 20:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC) — HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

GS - Associated Press Article July 2, 1934. Headline: "Eye-Witness Tells Of Execution Of Sixty Rebellious Storm Troopers". This is about SA leadership elimination.

GS - Associated Press Article July 3, 1934. Headline: "Hitler Moves To Oust Von Papen In Favor Of Wilhelm Goering"

Notable quotes from the article: "With the dead in Germany's 'blood purge' reaching several hundred, according to a reliable source, Chancellor Adolf Hitler today moved to strengthen his hold on the Reich by replacing the conservative, non-Nazi vice-Chancellor Franz Von Papen. It was expected that before the end of the day Herman Wilhelm Goering, co-purger with Hitler in the ruthless suppression of 'traitors,' would be elevated to the vice-chancellorship."

"President Von Hindenburg's strong protective hand was thrown around Von Papen after the 86 year old executive had congratulated Hitler and Goering on their "liquidation" with bullets of conservative and radical rebels against Hitlerism."

"But when Von Hindenburg spoke Hitler took steps to protect von Papen whose criticism of radical Nazis two weeks ago was the first public sign of rumblings preceeding the 'bloody Saturday' of suppression."

"Major Mueldner von Muelhmheim, for many years adjutant to the former Crown Prince Friedrich Wilhelm, was arrested because of his friendship for General Kurt von Schleicher, killed with his wife while 'resisting arrest' Saturday."

"The remarkable vitality of Von Hindenburg, hero of the army and the people, was demonstrated forcibly in his actions today." "Yesterday his condition was so alarming that a "'major medical council' was called at his estate. Today he was able to walk in this garden and to speak vigorously on matters vitally affecting the beloved Germany which he has served in war and peace for more than half a century."

GS - Associated Press Article July 4, 1934. Headline: "Future Of Germany Is Contained In Decision On Fate Of Von Papen"

SubHeading: "Status Is Uncertain" "Vice-Chancellor Said Appointed By Chief Executive as Check Against Extremists." Notable quotes from the article: "Out of a momentous night conference between Chancellor Adolf Hitler and President Paul Von Hindeburg at the latter's country estate, Germany looked today for an answer to the big question mark arising from the 'second Nazi revolution'-the political fate of Vice Chancellor Franz Von Papen, staunch friend of von Hindenburg." "The future of von Papen was acknowledged to be of paramount importance to the nation, and, in turn, the world, for if he remained in the government Hitler would be hindered in his reported scheme for tightening the Nazi reins and if he went out a sweeping cabinet shakeup was forseen." "Reliable sources pointed out that under the terms by which Hindenburg accepted the Hitler regime early in 1933, Von Papen was to be the President's confidante and informant, a check and balance."

It also mentions that von Papen is a prisoner in his own home, but protected by the regular army. von Hindenburg prevented his removal temporarily, but it would only last until the death of von Hindenburg. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) 15:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC)— HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Contemporaneous press accounts are no substitute for citations from reliable secondary sources by reputable historians. What appears to be the case at the time may not be an accurate reflection of reality. Do you have citations from secondary sources? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A reputable historian will never call himself a secondary source for events that happened nearly a century ago. HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 21:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)— HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Contemporaneous press accounts are either primary sources or secondary sources. A historian's opinion is not a source. HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 19:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)— HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

That is not correct. The opinions of experts are always considered to be reliable sources, although they should be presented as their opinions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

<redacted copyright violations> — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) 19:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC) — HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Look you need to stop with the WP:WALLOFTEXT. You are quoting far too much and we're going into copyright territory here. You are welcome to make specific improvements to the article or to suggest them, but you're playing around far too generally here and introducing wide swaths of facts that are strictly WP:UNDUE for a bio of this Pope. This pertains to one aspect of his reign, albeit major, but we need to keep it in perspective. Elizium23 (talk) 22:18, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst, I've begun reverting your additions. Please do not add any more copyrighted material to this page. This is a talk page for discussion of article improvement, not a dumping ground for arbitrary data. Elizium23 (talk) 22:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You're not getting it. You are not allowed to post copyrighted material anywhere on Wikipedia, except for short excerpts. Please see WP:Copyright violations and WP:NFCC, and stop posting copyright violations. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright expired on these articles. I was providing excerpts for your convenience. HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 23:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]