Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Following the roaring success of the History section re-write (well, no-one reverted any of it) I've completely re-written the Sport section too. The images let the section down IMO. So, if anyone has any better pics, please go ahead and upload them. I've been doing little other than this for the last few days, so my eyes are swimming. Would someone mind checking that the Wikilinks all work (& note it here, so there's no duplication) and someone else check the references (same). Thanks. Can someone check the Rothmans Yearbook ref for Glamorgan Wanderers RFC please. I don't have a copy, so just put page 10 in. Any feedback on the section would be good. Is the section now too long, etc, etc. Cheers

I've made a few minor changes - for instance I felt the bit describing the Arms Park as a 'temple of rugby' seemed more like an opinion than neutral information, even if it was sourced - but on the whole that was an excellent bit of work. Well done! The links seem to be working OK. The only thing the section lacks is just one single reference for where the Arms Park is described as one of the world's most famous venues. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 18:02, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, & thanks for checking the links. I thought the 'among the most famous in the world.' and 'temple of rugby' quotes could have been seen as WP:Peacock terms. The famous quote is from reference (#125) 1st paragraph: 'Cardiff Rugby Football Club was founded in 1876 and played its first game against Newport at Wentloog Marshes on 2 December of that year. The first home fixtures were played at Sophia Gardens. However, the club soon relocated to its famous ground at Cardiff Arms Park, named after the local Cardiff Arms public house. The Arms Park has seen many developments; originally home to both Cardiff cricket and rugby matches, the venue is among the most famous in the world.' Do you think if we put the words 'temple of rugby' in quotes we could still use it? Or do you think it's inappropriate? Daicaregos (talk) 20:10, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. It would only be peacockery if it was unsourced. I've just done a quick a quick search for "temple of rugby" and although the Arms Park does come a couple of times, there are a couple of other venues described this way, such as Twickenham, Eden Park, Toulouse and Hull(!). If we cited these sources and made sure to describe it as a temple of rugby rather than the temple, it may be okay. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 20:46, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not too bothered about the 'temple of rugby' (although I have added a couple more refs in case someone else wants it) I re-wrote the opening sentence (without the 'famous for its passion for sport' quote), although it could still use a tweak or two to make it a bit more punchy. Talking of punchy: I'm thinking of adding some boxing info (Bruno v Lennox @ the Arms Parc & of course Joe Calzaghe @ Cardiff Castle). Does anyone have any local info - Slott perhaps - or any pictures? Daicaregos (talk) 13:05, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Every time (once a month mainly) that I go back into this article, I see original research, no references etc.

What I am proposing is that a regular contributor (not me), takes some type of editorial control of this article and goes on to GA nomination.

Hopefully if any major changes occur they all go through that editor.

I also propose that the template below is added to the top of this Talk Page.

...Please state if you Oppose or Support. Also needed self nominations. What are your thoughts??? 07:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I absolutely support this. Perhaps Bettia (talk · contribs) might fancy it as a continous contributor and admin? Welshleprechaun (talk) 11:15, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm always up for improving this article - as a city of some significance it's important we get this up to a high a standard as possible. I'd say it's very close to GA class but there would be one or two things to look at before nominating it - maybe when I've finished doing Radyr and my other current pet project, I can take a proper look at this. First thing is to address any tags on the article, like in the Cityscape section - we could certainly use some references there. Then maybe go over the comments left in the peer review to see if there's anything left to check. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 17:04, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support. I would like to contribute to this article. Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 11:57, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

As we have had no other nominations, can I suggest that Daicaregos is added to the above template and that Daicaregos takes Cardiff onto nominate it as a Good Article, and all major edits are discussed with Daicaregos beforehand. Seth Whales (talk) 19:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe the article is still some way from being GA.

• Section - Geography. Original research / no references for the whole section.
• Section - Religion. Clean up
• Section - Economy. Refs needed e.g "the world's most important coal port."
• Section - Landmarks and attractions. Refs needed e.g. "However Cardiff is also famous for Cardiff Castle, St David's Hall..."
• Section - Culture and recreation. Refs e.g. "A large number of concerts are held within the city.." how many is large (POV)?
• Sections - Media - Sport - Notable people - Health - Education. More References needed.

Still lots to do before going for GA Nomination. Seth Whales (talk) 05:27, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Deeper coverage is needed for religious history prior to the twentieth century ; earlier twentieth century and late nineteenth century high culture; extremes of wealth and poverty; absence of aristocratic families (despite role of one); role of ship-owning families, top coal merchants and others; function of Cathedral Road; destruction of historical monuments. One picture of a high-rise tower should suffice. Historical aspects need to take account of the low population up to 1801, which nevertheless supported important administrative, judicial and other roles----Clive Sweeting 8&11August2009

If you would like to add content please go ahead. As long as it is referenced and conforms to WP:NPOV (see WP:DUE 'Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each.') it shouldn't be a problem (please ask if you have any questions). Daicaregos (talk) 14:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Although I have been looking for sources on this section, a thought has occured to me - is this section really necessary? To me, it seems more like a guide on where to live in Cardiff rather than encylopedic information. I haven't been able to find any other articles with this type of info, and there's no recommendations at WP:UKCITIES. Thoughts please? Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 12:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

When I hear the term "cityscape", I think of the skyline rather than what the section currently contains. I think there's too much detail and some of it (if not all) needs to go. Some of it can be redistributed, for example when talking about poorer areas, why not put it in the economy section? But stuff like "Pontcanna (situated north of Riverside and alongside Canton) is a favourite for students and young professionals" is unencyclopedic (I can't really image it in Britannica) and might not be easy to find a source for (actually, the students bit should be easy to source, but young professionals is a vague term). I don't think it would be a great loss to get rid of the section. As an aside, WP:UKCITIES encourages a brief description of the built environment, ie: what types of buildings. Nev1 (talk) 13:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes, you're right, there is a bit in the geography section about that. Mind you, some of that would be covered elsewhere - notes about the urban structure and architectural style of the city would probably fit in better in the History section (for example, many houses and buildings in the city are victorian and edwardian in style as this is when it went through a boom period). Transport infrastructure is already covered in the Transport section. Any pertinent parts about the suburbs could probably remain, but as you said, most of it would be no great loss. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 14:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Why is it not notable that Cardiff has the tallest buildings in Wales? I found it very appropriate to the Cityscape section, which tries to build an image of Cardiff in the reader's head, and this information adds to that. Welshleprechaun (talk) 15:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Since Cardiff is substantially larger than the other cities in Wales, it's hardly surprising that it has more tall buildings. The way these edits[1][2][3] were phrased sounded promotional rather than encyclopedic.Pondle (talk) 16:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Many large cities don't have tall buildings. I fail to see how those edits are promotional, what exactly does it promote?? Also, it's true - check the sources. If you don't like the phrasing - rephrase it rather than simply removing it deconstructively. Welshleprechaun (talk) 18:24, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

First, as far as I can see, high-rise development in Cardiff mirrors recent trends in other UK cities (think of the Beetham Towers in Manchester and Liverpool, 10 Holloway Circus in Birmingham, Lumiere in Leeds, St Pauls Tower in Sheffield, Meridian Quay in Swansea, the Number One tower in Portsmouth, to name a few). But that is not the issue here, the question is whether it is notable that Cardiff has more tall buildings than Swansea or Newport. I agree with Snowded that it is not. It is totally predictable given the relative sizes and densities of the Welsh cities. The edits in question are clearly local boosterism, this is self-evident from the tone and use of language.Pondle (talk) 22:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Successful big city = higher land values = more pressure to maximise return on investment = more development per area of land (subject to any landscape protection policies) = taller buildings. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:39, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

There are two issues with the recently added text. First of all, as Pondle has already mentioned, the phrase "Cardiff already has by far the largest number of tall buildings in Wales" is boastful at best - this sort of promotional phrasing should be avoided regardless of whether it is sourced or not. Also, the same paragraph mentions that the city's first purpose-built apartment blocks were first developed in the period since 2000 - this is clearly incorrect as there are older apartment blocks on the Gabalfa and Butetown estates. I've amended the text to specify that this is referring to the city centre. Bettia (talk) 08:37, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I like to ask before tossing new photos into the article:

I like it; though it bears a resemblance to another photo in the article. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 02:55, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, but ... Caerphilly (or its castle) isn't actually in Cardiff, so it's not really appropriate. Daicaregos (talk) 14:30, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Can anyone who speaks IPA give a pronunciation of the way many locals say the name? (i.e., 'Caairdiff') —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.54.213 (talk) 10:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I just reverted an edit which highlighted some dated info about Mary Street and its pedestrianisation in the roads part of the transport section. I'd update it myself, but don't understand what pedestrian priority means. Can any locals translate what the council is saying? Nev1 (talk) 22:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I imagine that, as is the case with most major pedestrianised streets, it will become paved over so it's not a road as such, but perhaps there will be automatic bollards to allow certain traffic to enter such as delivery vehicles or emergency services. Welshleprechaun (talk) 10:50, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I really like the new maps for the Welsh authorities. Excellent work and thanks to Dr Blofeld. Just one v small point; the caption notes it as the city of Cardiff. I'm not sure if it should say County, or Principal Area, or something else. But it implies the city is rather larger than it is. Any suggestions? Daicaregos (talk) 12:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree, they are good maps. Just to clarify on titles, city status for Cardiff (and Swansea) was granted to the county areas when local government was reorganised in 1996.[4] Cardiff Council uses the style "City of Cardiff" although I believe the legal name is actually the "City and County of Cardiff". Re: the size of the city, we have the local authority boundaries but the ONS has also defined urban areas and urban subdivisions, which are statistical constructs consisting of only the built-up areas. That's why different population figures are often quoted for various cities and towns in different articles. Hope that all makes sense.--Pondle (talk) 16:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I think so. So would 'location of City and County of Cardiff within Wales' be the appropriate caption? Daicaregos (talk) 17:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I would just use 'Cardiff', neither the Assembly Government or the ONS use longer titles for the Welsh unitary authorities.--Pondle (talk) 17:54, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I made your suggested change. Thanks, Daicaregos (talk) 20:10, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I would like to have a go at getting Cardiff though Good Article nomination, although with the article size of over 149K, I do plan to be bold (i.e I will be deleting or reducing the size of many of the sections), but not reckless.

I will start looking at the points I made one year ago (above).

• Section - Geography. Original research / no references for the whole section.
• Section - Religion. Clean up
• Section - Economy. Refs needed e.g "the world's most important coal port."
• Section - Landmarks and attractions. Refs needed e.g. "However Cardiff is also famous for Cardiff Castle, St David's Hall..."
• Section - Culture and recreation. Refs e.g. "A large number of concerts are held within the city.." how many is large (POV)?
• Sections - Media - Sport - Notable people - Health - Education. More References needed.

Your opinions please... SethWhales ^talk 10:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Had a quick look at the Geography section. Seemed relatively well referenced to me. Given the article size, why not remove anything unreferenced that's unnecessary? Daicaregos (talk) 10:55, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Economy: Added ref for "Cardiff ... the world's greatest coal port" Daicaregos (talk) 11:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Economy: Added The Grauniad ref for "Cardiff ... the world's busiest port" Daicaregos (talk) 11:32, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I think it be a good idea to split this section into Geography of Cardiff. It would then be possible to reduce the size of this section without losing any information. We could do the same with the Demography section by creating Demography of Cardiff. What do you guys think? Bettia (talk) 13:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Sod it, I've gone ahead and done it anyway :) Bettia (talk) 13:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

A couple of IP editors have added this claim recently, but it's wrong. If you look at this table from the Centre for Cities (a think-tank), the top annual growth rate between 1997 and 2007 was actually recorded for Milton Keynes, with Cardiff in 18th place.[5] These stats relate to local authority areas - if you looked at ONS "settlement" data then it might tell a different story, but as this data is collected as part of the census, we won't have any more until after 2011. Pondle (talk) 12:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

There must some discrepancy with the figures quoted by the Centre for Cities. As of yesterday the ONS published population esimate, for Mid 2008, for the Local Authority of Bristol was 421,300, Reading-145,700 Southhampton-234,600 and Cardiff 324,800. Therefore I suspect the centre for cities data are using different baselines for their comparisons.??? On that basis I am not sure we can trust their analysis?? It all depends on what you define as a City, Local Auhority, Metro Area or, the more recent EU definition of LUZ!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Barrymarkd (talk • contribs) 13:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, looking at that table again there do appear to be some oddities in the data - even though at the bottom of the table they do cite their supposed source, NOMIS 2008, Mid-year Population Estimates national and local authority levels. In England, the Department for Communities has introduced the "Primary Urban Area" concept (yet another confusing statistical definition!), maybe the Centre for Cities is using those definitions? I don't know. Nevertheless, I do think an uncited claim that Cardiff is the fastest-growing city in the UK is a bit dodgy. It reminds me a little of the old Cardiff Bay Development Corporation marketing slogan, "Europe's fastest-growing waterfront destination".Pondle (talk) 13:37, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, right stop being so old fashioned, things change, they've added a few extra statistical figures, I think its a good thing because Cardiff does not have a Greater Cardiff Metropolitan Area like places like Manchester, while the area surrounding Cardiff is very populated indeed. Other cities on wikipedia are using the LUZ as a statistical figure so we should to, its a new figure but its realy taken off. Cardiff is the fastest growing population in Wales now, with a growth rate of 1.2% that is fact. Do not change it, you do not own wikipedia, its sourced and I will get very anoyed if you change it. I have just the same right to put sourced edits onto wikipedia as you do. Don't let this turn into an editing war when the figures are correct! --92.0.124.139 (talk) 12:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "old fashioned". This is nothing to do with fashion and everything to do with Wikipedia policies and guidelines - WP:CITE, WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. No one is objecting to you including cited material from reliable sources, but your edit Cardiff is the fastest-growing city in the UK had no supporting reference and is contradicted elsewhere. Even if you disagree with the Centre for Cities research I mentioned above, then the LSE census brief [6] shows that a number of cities grew faster than Cardiff between 1991 and 2001 (London, Southampton, Brighton & Hove and Oxford to name a few). If you can produce a more up-to-date source in support of your assertion then please do so. Pondle (talk) 16:34, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

FYI - The definition used by the EU for the Cardiff LUZ:

LAU 1 AREAS (Districts) THAT MAKE UP LUZ Eurostat code for LAU 1 National code for LAU 1 Cardiff UKL2202 00PT Vale of Glamorgan UKL2203 00PD Rhondda Cynon Taff UKL1501 00PF Caerphilly UKL1601 00PK

...so not the Gwent Valleys, etc--Mark 21:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Barry, I got that "Gwent Valleys" text from annex 3, page 9 here - maybe they are summarising incorrectly? Pondle (talk) 21:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Guys we've seen this before, an IP editor with an obsession about this and a habit of telling everyone off. Remember the guy from Tongwynlas who kept popping back as an IP. Same edit, same style, same pages but a year older. Its clearly not cited material and has no place in the article. Until proper citations are produced why waste time on it? --Snowded ^TALK 22:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok - My LUZ definition comes from a Teodora BRANDMULLER who is a Eurostat - Administrator (email Teodora.BRANDMUELLER@ec.europa.eu). Given the population figure quoted for the LUZ of 841,000 I think she is correct. The same LUZ region as defined on the ONS 2008 mid year estimates is ~856,000 (made up of Cardiff ~324,000; VoG 125,000; RCT 234,000 and Caerphilly 172,000). The same dataset for mid 2008 estimates also shows Merthyr 55,000; Newport 140,000; Torfaen 91,000 Blaenau Gwent 69,000 and Monmouthshire 88,000 and Bridgend 134,000 (http://wales.gov.uk/topics/statistics/headlines/pop2009/hdw20090827/?lang=en. given the increasing number of definitions for Cardiff, both official and unofficial (eg UA, Urban Area, LUZ, Capital Region, Greater Cardiff, ESPON, etc) it seems that one can present a cocktail figure of whatever one likes using these ingredients!! The key for comparing such data is to use the same baseline - and a baseline that can be independently verified. Just trying to help, R Mark --Mark 11:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Isn't Cardiff usually referred to as 'The fastest growing capital city in Europe" rather than the fastest City? Happysailor ^(Talk) 18:06, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted edits by User:86.185.254.244 which refer to this report. Various reasons, including the fact that the edit is poorly worded, ungrammatical, and mis-formatted. In addition, it is wrong to describe it as a prediction of future population change. It is not a prediction. It is a projection of what would happen if recent trends in population continued. They won't, because the future is never the same as the past. Population and household projections are carried out routinely, all the time, by government authorities and statisticians so that policy advisors and politicians can get a handle on what sort of policies will be needed in the future. This particular report may be worthy of a brief reference, properly written and formatted, but no more. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:07, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely - Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. We should just stick to solid official figures, not guesstimates. Bettia (talk) 10:42, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I've added the Welsh Assembly population estimate for 2010 as it is an estimate not a projection because it is 2010. Mentioned the projections in demographics part of cardiff wikipedia but it says projection not estimates ect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.83.163 (talk) 19:35, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Mid-year 2009 Population estimates just published by WAG/ONS http://wales.gov.uk/docs/statistics/2010/100624sb462010en.pdf Cardiff shown to be 336,200 in 2009 up from 330,500 in 2008 and an 8.4% increase since 2001 08:48, 24 June 2010 (UTC) Mark 14:31, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

This article has nothing on crime, most articles for cities do. There are no stats in the Wales article either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spacemoney (talk • contribs) 10:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Is Cardiff's population density 11,375.2 people per square mile? Which land area and population figures are being used to calculate this result? From the various totals that are shown for population and land area, Cardiff's population density would be around 6,000 inhabitants per square mile. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrawu (talk • contribs) 01:21, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

We include two population figures in this article - one for the UA and one for the wider urban area. I support the inclusion of both (we do this many cities, so if there is such as thing as the wider Cardiff urban area - I presume there is - then we should do that for Cardiff too). The figure of 1.4 million seems excessively high though - it's not in the source given, and is similar to the population figure for the whole of Glamorgan given at that article (although unsourced there too). I don't think residents of Swansea would be happy about being considered part of "greater Cardiff". Are there any well-established definitions of "greater Cardiff" out there we could include. I'm thinking maybe the inclusion of Penarth, Barry etc sounds sensible, but not places as far away as Merthyr Tydfil? SP-KP (talk) 10:46, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

The figure of 1.4 million is included in the source, but not for the metropolitan area - it is the figure for the whole of South East Wales - i.e. 336,200 + 1,109,300 = 1,445,500. By no stretch of the imagination could that be considered to be the "Cardiff urban area". I'm all for including figures which are based on contiguous built-up areas (as the ONS uses) as well as those for admin areas, but they need to be explained. I've removed the 1.4 million figure as inadequately explained, and unnecessary for this article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:54, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, we're in agreement here. I noticed the spurious 1.4 million figure the other day and { { cn } } tagged it for exactly that reason. Interestingly there is a figure of 841,600 at Larger Urban Zones, but even that seems way too large, by (as you say) any stretch of the imagination. However, the LUZ article suffers from poor sourcing too. The approach taken at the Bristol article may give us a way forward - it has a whole section on the different boundary defnitions and what the population figure would be under each of these. SP-KP (talk) 11:03, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

You might find this of use, the latest 2010 official mid year pop stats....[url]http://wales.gov.uk/docs/statistics/2011/110630sb632011en.pdf [/url] The total for the LAs in WGs "Capital City Region" - ie Cardiff, VoG, Newport, Bridgend, RCT, Caerphilly, Merthyr, Blaneau Gwent, Torfaen and Monmouth is ~ >1.4M. The Cardiff LA itself is 341,000 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barrymarkd (talk • contribs) 21:06, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok, so I'm sure you've all noticed the new montage. And I'm equally sure you all hate it! Here's the thing... the old montage, which had been in place since 2009, always bothered me. It was incredibly narrow in focus, half of the 4 images being shots of Cardiff Bay. It included a picture of the inside of a roofed stadium. It told the reader nothing about Cardiff, not about it's history or it's present or even really what it looks like, which is the point of these things in the first place. So I decided to be bold and create something new. I was trying to create a healthy mix of modern and historic, hitting all the highlights while getting as broad as possible in terms of geography. Looking at it, I think the night shot of the city centre is problematic and could be changed and I'm open to suggestions or other attempts or even a change back should consensus not be in my favor. -- MichiganCharms (talk) 03:42, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't like the night shots, don't like the pictures of statues / artworks (they don't give any idea of the place as a whole and are not especially notable in themselves), and don't like the prominence given to the castle. Apart from that... Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:39, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Aside from the night shot of city center (which is really a gorgeous image, shamefully not used anywhere on Wikipedia, but ill-suited for this resolution), the two things I'd do over would be swapping the castle shot for either Cardiff Bay or the Senedd and dropping Alliance. Maybe I'll toss something together later, after we find out what everyone else hates about it! --MichiganCharms (talk) 09:11, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

The new montage is excellent! My one suggestion (take it or leave it) would be to swap the image of the war memorial with one of the City Hall clock tower. I nenver understood the fascination with the war memorial, when the surrounding civic centre is one of the best in Europe! Sionk (talk) 12:03, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Second night shot is bad, suggest the Arms Park? Can upload recent picture with ease--Snowded ^TALK 12:52, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Here's a second effort incorporating suggestions:

-- MichiganCharms (talk) 18:08, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

For ease of comparison, here are the other two - the one in place up to last week (top), and the one now in place. Personally, I prefer the original one, with only four images rather than six - but perhaps replacing the university building with a general view of the city centre. Having six or seven images, rather than four, makes them too small, particularly if they are general views and/or nighttime shots. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:21, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Time for my tuppence worth. I like the landscape view of the bay at the top of the original one - it's clear, and incorporates two landmarks (the Pierhead Building and the Millennium Centre). A daytime view of the Senedd is preferable to the night-time view, although the angle used in the night shot (with the sculpture in front) is better - I'd suggest making a new picture. The interior shot of the Millennium Stadium should be replaced with an external shot, as this is much more distinctive. Cardiff Castle is more of a landmark than the university - the picture of the Norman Keep is good, but a landscape of the exterior walls would be better. Finally (and this is just a general observation), we should also make sure that the licence of the pictures making up the montage is suitable for use on Wikipedia. ★ Bald Zebra ★ ^talk 13:50, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Might be rather late to the party here, but here are my suggestions: File:Millennium Stadium North Big.jpg instead of the National War Memorial, File:Cardiff City Hall cropped.jpg instead of the panoramic night shot, File:Pierhead Building - Cardiff Bay 01.jpg instead of Alliance and File:Millenium Centre, Cardiff Bay.jpg or File:Cardiff Bay WMC.jpginstead of the final shot. What's there now is a definite improvement on the 2009 montage, though. Ham 14:49, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Apparently, Cardiff was hit by a tsunami in 1607. I haven't found much about it online, but it might be worth adding into the article.--Rhyswynne (talk) 10:33, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

See Bristol Channel floods, 1607 - not necessarily a tsunami, views differ, but certainly it had a devastating effect. I don't know of any specific good references to the effects on Cardiff though. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:36, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Recent academic investigation suggests strong evidence it was a tsunami. I came across an 1854 book which gives a graphic quote about the effects of the flood. Accounts describe "outrageous waves" travelling "faster than a greyhound can run". Sionk (talk) 12:37, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• "Cardiff is the largest media centre in the UK outside of London." Citation anyone? Come on, this is ridiculous, I think Manchester might give it a slight run for its money! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.86.191.24 (talk • contribs)

Fair point. Are there any sources for this at all? I've tried to find some and failed. Vashti (talk) 19:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The claim was prominent in the Media in Cardiff article, but has since disappeared. It seems it was cited to a Cardiff Council document, but as far as I can see, the 2003 document says on page 2 "Wales has the largest broadcast centre outside of London". Though Cardiff is a very major broadcast centre (and I suspect Cardiff has the lions share of broadcast facilities in Wales) this statement doesn't verify the disputed claim (above). It should probably be removed. The Media in Manchester article has a solidly sourced claim to the title. Sionk (talk) 19:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It's gone. Vashti (talk) 21:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

To the editors who keep on adding the claim back to the lede section, can I point out the claim isn't in the Media in Cardiff article, it isn't even in the 'Media' section of this article. When it did exist in the Media in Cardiff article the citation didn't bear out the claim. It's very clearly a dubious claim, at best an outdated one. The 2010 Financial Times article cited in the Media in Manchester article states that Manchester is the biggest.
Sure, Cardiff has a very big English and Welsh language media presence, but any stats should be expanded elsewhere, before getting anywhere near being a prominent claim in the lede paragraph, shouldn't they? Sionk (talk) 17:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, are we really going to edit war over this uncited claim? Media in Manchester has a conflicting, verifiable one. Vashti (talk) 17:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Look at the History! I'm not "edit warring". It is just that whenever I enjoy a programme on the BBC it invariably comes from BBC Cymru Wales, whereas it seems that only this excellent programme comes from Salford.
Sincerely,
— Gareth Griffith-Jones| The Welsh Buzzard: Cardiff born and bred | —20:12, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

However, that's anecdote. That's not a source. Vashti (talk) 20:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm just wondering how the coordinates are decided. Is there an official point in Cardiff which marks the 'centre' of the city? (I know the Charles I statue at Charing Cross is the official centre of London and the point used to measure distances to and from the city. I've not found mention of such a point for Cardiff.

The same question could be asked of many cities and towns, especially smaller ones. I wonder if there is a practice in place? Here in the UK, perhaps the war memorials would be a good point as almost every village has one, too. —Cymrodor (talk) 10:42, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Google maps uses the junction of the main roads coming into Cardiff, where The Hayes meets Queen Street (East-West route) and the main (A470) road to North Wales. Coincidentally I visited a European city this month and saw a marker on a wall noting the centre of the city for measurement purposes. I've never known of anything similar for Cardiff. Sionk (talk) 12:30, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

I would prefer here.
Sincerely,
— Gareth Griffith-Jones| The Welsh Buzzard: Cardiff born and bred | — 19:39, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Hm, it would seem to make more sense to overlap with Google's positioning. But those two positions aren't a stone's throw from each other, regardless. Vashti (talk) 14:36, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

What's the purpose of this discussion? You can choose whatever point you like, but that doesn't make it official. Maybe Ordinance Survey would be the arbiter on this? Sionk (talk) 14:54, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

FWIW Bing Maps uses a point outside the entrance to Cardiff Castle. Streetmap.co.uk uses an apparently random point along Queen Street, I'm not sure of the significance. Sionk (talk) 15:14, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

It's just better to conform to a source than to invent our own central location, if we can't find an official spot. Vashti (talk) 21:54, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

The article currently states that Cardiff is the "largest city in Wales and the tenth largest city in the United Kingdom. The city is the country's chief commercial centre"

The reference here to "country" is ambiguous - it could refer to the immediate preceding place (U.K.) or Wales. I have therefore inserted "the country of" before Wales to clarify this. The "chief commercial centre" of the U.K. is undoubtedly London, however proud one may be of Cardiff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.6.146.5 (talk) 06:10, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

The previous sentence starts with a reference to the fact that it is the capital city so I think it was pretty clear. ----Snowded ^TALK 08:14, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

I actually agree with the IP. If not having basic knowledge about the subject, it is ambiguous. Grrahnbahr (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

The summit 'proper' doesn't start till tomorrow, but its effect in Cardiff has been quite....substantial... already. I keep forgetting to bring my camera into town to photo's and it seems there are no photos about on Commons yet. Anyone taken any pics? --Rhyswynne (talk) 09:28, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure how (or whether) photos of the summit could be included in this article. The summit is being held in Newport, after all! I guess a picture might be useful for the article about the summit (if and when one exists). Sionk (talk) 10:19, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

The main article here already contains this snap - I'm sure someone can do better. Don't get yourself arrested though. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:35, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Added this instead, which I took earlier. Anyone want to see if they can do better? Security's quite relaxed. Vashti (talk) 14:08, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Yesterday, a Crime and Terrorism section was added to the article. The first paragraph referenced a Guardian article stating that Cardiff's crime figures were 70% higher than the rest of Wales and that people had a lower standard of living. However, the official Welsh Assembly report states the figure is actually 29% higher and the city's levels of health and wellbeing are average compared with the rest of Wales. I have amended that statement to suit.

The second paragraph stated that there was a surge of terrorism-related activity and that Cardiff has a major problem with this, implying that the city was a terrorist centre - however, the source used opens with a statement by the chief of the counter-terrorism unit stating that this is no different from any other UK city. I've decided to remove this statement altogether.

This has left this section with a single one-line sentence. I've noted that no other major city article has a Crime and Terror section, not even places such as New York or London which have a certain reputation. The question is, does this article need such a section? Seeing as Cardiff's crime rates are hardly remarkable and no other article contains this section, I'm minded to say no. ★ Bald Zebra ★ ^talk 10:39, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Makes sense to remove it, I agree. Obviously the Western Mail article cited in the second paragraph actually makes the polar opposite point to the one made by whoever added the section! Sionk (talk) 11:04, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

When the official Welsh Assembly statistics show the Welsh average being approximately 56 in every 1000, and Cardiff being 97 in every 1000 that is indeed as the Guardian article points out a 70% increase in crime on the Welsh average. See page 35 of http://wales.gov.uk/docs/statistics/2014/141218-local-area-summary-cardiff-en.pdf. The WalesOnline article also shows and titles it's article to highlight a surge in terrorist related activity emanating from Cardiff. This section must stay. The figure for 70% for crime must be put back by Bald Zebra at earliest opportunity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.219.194.227 (talk) 11:43, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Cities have higher crime rates than rural areas. Is this notable? We wouldn't include a section saying Cardiff had more streetlights than elsewhere. It just goes with the territory. On balance, I don't think this section is particularly worth inclusion, though I could be convinced otherwise. I note that The Western Mail piece on terrorism quotes "The head of Wales' counter-terrorism unit says the capital city has no greater problem with Muslim extremism than any other city in the UK". So not really notable either, and rather recentist too. Daicaregos (talk) 12:22, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

We can certainly note what the head of the counter terrorism has stated, I would actually expect it to be noted to prevent any possible bias but there is no information regarding other cities on the article in question. We can't also exclude crime statistics based on possibility that cities have inherently higher proportion of crime than rural areas, that could open a can of worms where reporting crime statistic for any city may also be regarded and invalid entry even if it was proportionally higher than all other cities. This is a tough one to be honest, but my above entry stating cardiff's 97 in 1000 is erroneous, it looks to be more 87 in 1000. I would personally prefer this section to be renamed as something else or put in as a sub-section. Crime should not be it's own section, there is information in the article regarding Cardiff falling under the South Wales police authority and it should be put closer to that topic. But I am very worried about ruling out such statistics after they have entered based on assumed (not saying anyone here has) trends or possibly correct trends but where no information was provided as was the case with the head of counter terrorism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.219.194.227 (talk) 14:30, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I seem to remember Cardiff was mentioned in the UK news when a number of young radicals were identified to Cardiff. It might be fair to source something about the problem to a more general news source, but makes little sense to source the claims of a "surge" in terrorism to a Cardiff-based newspaper that disputes the fact. Sionk (talk) 14:55, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm seeing some random text in the population section of the infobox (eg: ?UNIQb52e1,706b5bc64a-ref-0,000,014B-QINU) but I'm not sure what it means or what's causing it. Any suggestions? Nev1 (talk) 22:03, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

None, I'm afraid. I have tried to correct both refs, but nothing seemed to work. Daicaregos (talk) 22:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I believe this is a long-standing issue with refs in certain locality infoboxes. The only way I know of that works consistently is to find other similar places to put the ref tags. I went ahead and fixed this article's infobox. ZabMilenko^{How am I driving?} 08:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Where did the coolbox go for the castles in and around cardiff? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.130.144 (talk) 00:25, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The infobox lists the population density of the urban area as 15k/sq mile. I'm pretty sure this is erroneous. Cardiff does not have a population density similar to Tokyo. It looks like the error comes from dividing the urban population by the urban area only (447k / 29) where it should be the urban population divided by the city + urban area (447k / 83.44 = 5360).

Before I dive in and fix this, does anyone have any thoughts or evidence to back this up either way?

Skrrp (talk) 08:41, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

William Camden, Britain, or, a Chorographicall Description of the most flourishing Kingdomes, England, Scotland, and Ireland

http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/text/chap_page.jsp?t_id=Camden&c_id=23&p_id=9178#pn_104

Earlier sections contain descriptions and discussions of Glamorganshire - Section 2 relates The Twelve Knights story of the Norman Conquest of Morganwg - " ... The hard and baraine hill Country hee [ FITZ HAMON ] granted tot he said Enion, the more fertile parts hee devided betweene him and those twelve knights whom he termed Peres, on this condition, that they should hold them in fee and vasallage of him as their cheife Lord, to maintaine one another in common with their aides and auxiliary forces, to defend every one his owne ward in his Castle of Caerdiff, and to be present and assist him in his courts in the administration of Justice. ... "

Section 4 - note that " Traith-Taff " in a modern spelling would be " Traeth Taf " - " Taff's Beach " or " Taff's Strand."

"4. A little beneath hath Ptolomee placed the mouth of Ratostabius or Ratostibius, using a maimed word in steed of Traith-Taff , that is, The sandy Trith of the river Taff. For the said river Taff, sliding downe from the hilles, runneth toward the sea by Landaff, that is, the Church by Taff , a small Citie and of small reputation, situate somewhat low, yet a Bishops See, having within the Dioecesse 154 parishes, and adourned with a Cathedral Church consecrated to Saint Telean Bishop of the same. Which Church German and Lupus, French Bishops, then erected, whenas they had suppressed the haeresie of Pelagius that was dangerously spred all Britaine over, and preferred Dubricius a most holy man to be the first Bishop there, unto whom Meuricke a British Lord freely gave all the land that lieth betweene the rivers Taff and Elei. From hence goeth Taff to Caerdiff, called of the Britans Caer-did , a proper fine towne (as townes goe in this country) and a very commodious haven, which the foresaid Fitz-Haimon fortified with a wall and Castle, that it might bee both a seat for warre and a Court of Justice: wherein, beside a band of choise soldiers, those twelve Knights were bound to keepe Castle-gard. Howbeit a few yeers after, Yvor Bach, a British Mountainer, a little man of person but of a great and resolute courage, marching with a band of men by night without any sturre, suddenly surpised, tooke prisoner William Earle of Glocester, Fitz-Haimons daughters sonne, together with his wife and young sonne, and detained them in hold with him untill he had made him full satisfaction for all wrongs and losses. But how Robert Curthose, William the Conquerours eldest sonne, a man overventerous and foole hardy in Warlicke exploits, quite put by his hope of the Crowne of England by his younger brethren and bereft of both his eies, lived untill he was an old man in this Castle, you may see if you please in our Historians, and understand withall that roiall parentage is never assured either of ends or safe securitie." DaiSaw (talk) 06:19, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 35 external links on Cardiff. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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I was surprised to see that Cardiff is the rainiest city in Britain had been added to the article. It is counter-intuative … and I remember another walesonline piece cited on the Wales article, which claimed Swansea as the wettest city in Great Britain (here: Soggiest city in Britain pays high price for rain), with an average annual rainfall of 1360.8mm.

A blog written by the Met Office, published on their website three days after the walesonline piece, casts doubt on the 'wettest city' concept. It says, “We often get asked the question about where is the wettest town or city in the UK – and there are some news stories on this subject circulating in the media at the moment. While the current stories use some of our figures, this isn’t an analysis by us and wasn’t done using our complete records from across the UK.”

The Met Office's figures show Cardiff's average annual rainfall (1981-2010) to be 1151.9mm. And their figures show Swansea's average annual rainfall (1981-2010) to be 999.2mm.

That Cardiff, or anywhere else, is the wettest city in Great Britain is disputed – not least by the supposed source of the 'fact'. I think the claim should be removed from the article. Daicaregos (talk) 14:17, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree. I suspect Bangor (Gwynedd) may claim that title, but I am not going to suggest it at that article. It would of course be WP:OR so inadmissible anyway.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   15:04, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Hmm. I'm happy to see the current sentence removed, even though it does seem to be adequately sourced - but if it's contentious and there's no definitive source, we should leave it out. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:23, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

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I have just added archive links to 4 external links on Cardiff. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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Out of curiosity, the land area is given for the Carid Built-up or Urban Area in the infobox, but I'm unable to find it. I'm interested to see source data because it strikes me as odd that the population is so much higher than City of Cardiff principal area despite it being so much smaller and mostly existing with the City borders. Speaking of the urban area, I notice Demography section that in the "Historical population" box there is an apples-to-oranges comparison. Despite the note at the bottom of the chart saying that historical populations are calculated with the modern boundaries, it also seems very clear that at least for the 2001 population the urban settlement (urban sub-area) population is used (292,150) instead of the City (principal area) population (305,353) which curiously is clearly used in the first paragraph of the section. Why not keep this an apples-to-apples comparison and use the Census figure for the City from that year? Was this a simple oversight, or something done deliberately? It's almost as if it's used to exaggerate the growth to the following Census since the City number is used for that figure. I guess my point is that it's probably best to use the principal area figures as the primary figures and then clearly and seperately use the settlement/urban sub-area and urban/built-up figures secondarily. --Criticalthinker (talk) 08:52, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

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Hi everyone, I just thought I'd ask this question because two times (second one by reverting) I simplified the opening sentence in the lead to say that Cardiff is "the capital and largest city of Wales" but both these changes got reverted by Gareth Griffith-Jones on the basis that it was better the way it was already written. The reason why I question these reverts is because many other capital and largest city articles I've seen on Wikipedia were written similar to the way I had changed it, especially capital cities like London, Dublin, Paris, Amsterdam, Belgrade, Copenhagen and Riyadh so I personally don't think there is anything wrong with the way I changed it. However, one thing I don't understand is whether there is a rule on Wikipedia or consensus on this talk page which states that the opening sentence should always be written like "Cardiff is the capital of, and largest city in, Wales" because if there is any, I will happily accept the reverts to my edits although I would also suggest those articles I've pointed out should also be rewritten in the format Gareth Griffith-Jones prefers. I'd be grateful if anyone can please point me in the right direction as I'd rather avoid an edit war over this matter if its possible. Many thanks. Broman178 (talk) 10:17, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

@Broman178: Thanks for posting your concerns here, rather than edit warring! It would be good if Gareth Griffith-Jones would respond. I agree that it sounded awkward, especially with the sentence continuing on. I've changed it slightly, maybe it's better? There's no fixed rule about it, nor should there be. Consensus in other articles doesn't necessarily apply to this article, and "the largest city of Wales", though not flat-out wrong, could be legitimately debated. See also the discussion on the word reference forum. --IamNotU (talk) 14:33, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

I like your adjustment of the following clause—turning it into a new sentence and linking with the subsequent text. Gareth Griffith‑Jones ^{The Welsh Buzzard} 14:46, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. It does look a bit better with the readjustment but it still isn't perfect and I'm still not happy with the opening sentence because I do believe "Cardiff is the capital of, and largest city in, Wales" is an unnecessarily wordy bit for an opening sentence and just doesn't flow very well. Although if you both prefer it this way and if others agree with both of you, then I won't argue or change it back to how I did it, although if other people agree with me and if a consensus is agreed with it, then I might consider changing it back to how I did it, but unless that happens, I won't make any changes to it for the time being. Broman178 (talk) 22:02, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Broman178, Gareth Griffith-Jones, thank-you both for your input! I don't really mind either way... no, it's not perfect (what is?) but if we all can live with it, maybe it's ok to leave it for now? Or what about "Cardiff is the capital of Wales, and its largest city." Any better? --IamNotU (talk) 02:51, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Good morning, Broman178 and IamNotU, I like that and it now reads,
Cardiff is the capital of Wales, and its largest city. The eleventh-largest city in the United Kingdom, it is Wales's chief commercial centre, the base for most national cultural and sporting institutions, the Welsh national media, and the seat of the National Assembly for Wales. The [[Local government in Wales| ...
... Gareth Griffith‑Jones ^{The Welsh Buzzard} 09:18, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

It's actually ungrammatical, in that the phrase "the Welsh national media" is meant to be governed by the words "the base for", but is separated by a comma rather than "and". (Does that make sense? I'm not a grammarian!) Perhaps it would be better worded as "...Wales's chief commercial centre, the base for most national cultural institutions and media, and the seat of the National Assembly for Wales." Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:29, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

It now reads,
Cardiff is the capital of Wales, and its largest city. The eleventh-largest city in the United Kingdom, it is Wales's chief commercial centre, the base for most national cultural institutions and Welsh media, and the seat of the National Assembly for Wales.
Thank you for that. Gareth Griffith‑Jones ^{The Welsh Buzzard} 09:42, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Why does it need to say "Welsh media" rather than just "media"? It already says "national". Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:02, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Its inclusion emphasises the comma break to, and the seat of the National Assembly for Wales. ... Gareth Griffith‑Jones ^{The Welsh Buzzard} 10:07, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

That makes no sense to me, but whatever.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:11, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Looking at this, its probably best to keep whatever change is agreed with whether perfect or not. Regards. Broman178 (talk) 15:30, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

OK, so I've come here trying to find out what county you'd use if addressing a letter to somewhere near but not necessarily in Cardiff... all I'm getting are the two historic counties, Glamorgan and South Glamorgan, neither of which seem to be used for anything other than ceremonial purposes and some very niche bits of legislation.

So, um ... what's the current county that it's in?! Seems like a rather glaring bit of information to omit. 194.73.99.82 (talk) 16:15, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Postal counties have not been needed for addressing mail since the 1990s. Just use the postcode. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:21, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Cardiff is a county as well as a city. Cardiff is in the county of Cardiff for postal purposes. If you were sending a letter to somewhere outside of Cardiff you'd use the name of the appropriate county. It's common to still see letters for places north of Cardiff addressed to Mid Glamorgan, or Gwent, partly I expect because of habit, or because people don't know which of the modern day county boroughs the location is in.

All the same, I agree Wikipedia is very confusing when it comes to clearly describing the administration of Wales. Most people would struggle to describe the difference between a county, a unitary authority or a principal area. I recently created Category:County councils of Wales but left the 'unitary authorities' out of it. In common parlance they are counties, but Wikipedia avoids calling them this. Sionk (talk) 23:07, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Save yourself a headache and just use the postcode. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 00:47, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Forget counties! There is only one Cardiff on this planet, so in this respect don't ever add Wales. Gareth Griffith‑Jones ^{The Welsh Buzzard} 15:25, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Let's go surfin' then... !! Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:29, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi all

A few changes I recently made for reference

The infobox urban figure was not referenced, so I have now added this. The infobox now reflects the 2017 population as per the List of Welsh principal areas by population page which is well sourced, up to date, and used by other Welsh city pages. This was important as the previous reference did not use ONS data like other UK cities. However I have swapped the figure in the introduction paragraph to the 2011 census figure, as I thought it was important to refer to the 2011 census figure in some way, being the most recent official census. Llemiles (talk) 11:23, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

A defining feature of Cardiff for those of us nerdy enough to enjoy photographing other folks' cars (or even our own) - and for those of us who are sufficiently wide to need to open our car doors wide when we simply park on the wrong side of the street - is the mega camber on a lot of the streets. I feel there must be an encyclopedic explanation lurking out there ... somewhere. Does anyone know, please, why so many streets in Cardiff are so aggressively cambered? (And please do feel more than free to include the explanation in the wiki-entry on Cardiff if appropriately interesting and sourced....) With thanks in anticipation. Charles01 (talk) 15:12, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Possibly because it rains so much! The camber would help drainage. But we would need a reliable source to add this. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:03, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

I recall seeing signposts saying that Cardiff was twinned with Baltimore County USA and I see some sources [7][8][9] Lots of unsourced but perhaps interesting cardiff trivia [10] still reporting that - though I also see that the cardiff council website doesnt include Baltimore county - does anyone know why ? I've noticed that Baltimore county has been removed from the signposts too. I don't know how notable that 'untwinning' would be - but I've never seen an 'untwinning' before - so I think its probably worth a mention if someone can reference it. I gather that Baltimore Harbour Authority was related to the development of Cardiff Bay in some way - so perhaps that was the basis of a temporary twinning?

Also found this [11] on another wiki about Cardiff saying that Cardiff was but is no longer twinned with Baltimore County, that page points to a more recent article also about cardiff [12] which no longer mentions Balitmore county but now mentions Pernik Bulgaria and apart from the lack of references looks like a well built entry that could probably provide a fair amount of inspiration for ways to enhance this article. EdwardLane (talk) 21:42, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

This came up a couple of years ago. The official source doesn't list Baltimore, and there's no evidence it's linked with Pernik either. Neither of these cities are listed on any road signs upon entering Cardiff. —BETTIA— ^talk 08:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I definately did see Baltimore on the signposts in and around cardiff for a year or two - I saw the name was no longer there which was why I drifted by this page to see if there was an explanation, but I've never seen Pernik EdwardLane (talk) 09:23, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

this old photo of the sign outside cardiff (sorry about the facebook link can't find a better source) shows (in case you can't see the link) not "Cardiff" but "south glamorgan" twinned with Baltimore County and then next line Maryland - so presumably that carried over when Cardiff became 'city and county'? EdwardLane (talk) 17:01, 5 May 2020 (UTC)