Langbahn Team – Weltmeisterschaft

Talk:Augusto Jiménez Seminario

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Augusto Jiménez Seminario/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Arawoke (talk · contribs) 14:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 01:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]


I will review this now. First, I am sorry for the long wait. Second, I really appreciate your work on this article and on the broader topic of the genocide, this is much needed content.

However, I see one, potentially major, issue (and this might be the reason why nobody took the review until now): The article seems to rely almost exclusively on primary sources. Maybe I am missing something, maybe one of these primary account has scholarly commentary with it; please let me know if that is the case.

  • If I'm not missing something, then the only scholarly secondary source you use is the Master's thesis (Tesis de Maestría) of Ramiro Brown. However, WP:Reliable Sources states that "Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence." Is this the case here?
  • Do we have any significant (i.e., non-incidental) covering of this person in a secondary source (see Wikipedia:SECONDARY) that meets WP:Reliable Sources?
  • Because of that, I have to worry about (and check) if WP:OR and WP:Synth is met. I really don't like to criticise this good work this way, but WP:Reliable Sources is one of the Good Article Criteria that I have to make sure are met.

In addition, I have some more minor suggestions regarding prose:

  • In the lead, you state "Julio César Arana’s rubber enterprise", and after that you do not mention the Peruvian Amazon Company company again. This means that all these atrocities were not committed by the Peruvian Amazon Company but by the "rubber enterprise", or are the Company and the rubber enterprise the same thing?
  • This company was later implicated with the genocide of the local indigenous population, – Does this refer to the Putumayo genocide (if so, be specific), or is this a separate genocide?

I am waiting for your thoughts on the sourcing issue first, and then see how to continue. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 01:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! I will be able to respond in depth to this tomorrow, as far as Julio Cesar Arana’s enterprise goes, Jimenez was employed by the predecessor company J.C Arana y Hermanos, and he continued his employment with the Peruvian Amazon Company until 1911, and then he was working with smaller firms that aren’t as significant as mentioning as far as he continued working in the same industry. I think he was employed by a Bolivian rubber firm that was part of Nicolas Suarez’s rubber enterprise or he was working on an estate associated with Suarez at the time of his capture in 1914, id have to check the source material again. I’ll have to check “Despues del caucho” and some other modern sources for more secondary sources Arawoke (talk) 02:55, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I spent most of my studying time earlier checking for more secondary sources on Jiménez, but there’s a lack of significant coverage. I would like to add more information from “Arana, Rey del Caucho”, “Despues del caucho”, Oscar Paredes Pando’s source and Rojas Brown, before you make a decision on this GAN based on the secondary source coverage. In two or three separate sources Rojas Brown republished the information relating to John Brown which mostly cover the same info on jimenez already added, I would like to take a look at those tomorrow. One of those sources by Rojas Brown is a literary source that examines the literary history of the Amazon. Arawoke (talk) 03:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In regards to your inquiry of scholarly commentary:
  • Casement 1997 is first hand information produced by Casement, I can not find any footnotes produced by the editor [Angus Mitchell] referring to Jimenez.
  • Hardenberg 1912 is a collection of sworn depositions, Hardenburg did not personally interact with Jimenez.
  • Paternoster 1913 is an examination of Hardenburg 1912 and depositions collected by Casement
  • Valcarcel 2004 is a primary source.
  • Lagos 2012 is a biography on Jimenez's employer, Julio Arana, with some commentary included on Jimenez. I've also pulled Lago's examination of oral testimony as a corroborating source for: Jimenez managing Santa Julia, testimony regarding a raid led by Jimenez and a quote by Benjamin Saldana referring to Aguero & Jimenez's conduct at Abisinia.
  • Oscar Paredes Pando 2013, Paredes Pando is an anthropologist that personally investigated evidence of Jimenez remaining along the Brazilian-Bolivian border for refuge. His information regarding Jimenez escaping in 1914 comes a primary document, included in a chapter of his book titled: "Ruffians of J.C. Arana in the Upper Acre - Madre de Dios". The majority of that chapter is focused on Jimenez however it is a small portion of that book. I have attempted to attribute the sources of Paredes's information into the text of the article.
  • Rojas Brown 2014 and 2022 are examinations of John Brown's oral tesetimonies by his grandson Ramiro Rojas Brown. I can only find two sources citing Rojas's master thesis, however the information covered in his thesis is covered in: "El paraíso del diablo: Roger Casement y el informe del Putumayo, un siglo después" a portion of which is authored by Rojas Brown.
Arawoke (talk) 20:17, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for your careful revision! I am a bit occupied in RL the next days, but will have another look at the article as soon as possible. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:59, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Second look

Prose

  • In general, the article is well-written, with one issue that appears again and again: Important information that the reader needs to understand the text is often missing. Some examples for this below:
  • "[T]he least criminal like Jimenez [killed] ten in two months".[37][g] – This quote is entirely without context. Where, who, and what is the connection to the paragraph?
  • Ocampo implicated – introcue at first mention (you introduce him only later)
  • Agustin Pena – Who is that?
  • The Barbadian James Mapp relayed information regarding a correria led by Jimenez and a massacre in January 1906.[85][63] At night during the journey to return to Abisinia the expedition heard a native drum – what is "correria"? What expedition is this about?
  • Jose Maria explained that the bodies of the victims were burned along with the hut. – What hut? If you use "the" to refer to "the hut", it implies that this hut is something the reader already should know about.
  • "[t]hese people were killed not because Jimenez was frightened and wanted to run away, but only because the 'manguaré' was beating and calling the Indians-only for that reason." – Check if the quote indeed does not use a proper ndash, and one without spaces.
  • He became the manager of the Santa Julia station, which was the shipping port for Abisinia, located on a tributary of the Igara-Paraná River. Abisinia, Morelia, and two other stations – This is confusing; is the station called "Abisinia" or "Santa Julia"? And what is Abisinia to start with, a village?
  • Jimenez was transferred to Abisinia shortly after the first detachment of Barbados men arrived to that station in 1905. – What "Barbados men"? Have not been mentioned before, and need explanation.
  • There, Augusto Jiménez was a submanager under Abelardo Agüero – In the paragraph before, you said he was manager, not submanager.
  • Ovidio Lagos, who published a lengthy biography on Arana noted that the report published by J.C. Arana y Hermano's auditor "affectionally addressed" Armando Normand and Augusto Jiménez, two murderers which Lagos believes should "join the list of the worst sadists" of the 20th century. – What "report" is this talking about? This sentence seems out of place too, I don't see the connection to the previous text.
  • of Ultimo Retiro – Again, introduce at first mention
  • I suggest to add some more information to the image captions to show the reader the relevance to the text. For example, the dates of the photographs are important. For the "Flogging of a Putumayo native" shot, you could mention the photographer, since it is the murdered one that you mention in the text.
  • Jimenez stated "the blancos – where and when did he state this?

Sourcing

  • Jose Maria did not clarify that he interpreted the signals for Jimenez in his deposition. Instead, he stated Jimenez assumed that it was a signal that the natives wanted to kill him. Jose Maria declared that Jimenez stated "before they kill me, we are going to kill them". – If I see this correctly, this is sourced to an eyewitness account, which is a primary source. However, you appear to do interpretation and analysis of this eyewitness account here? If so, this would be WP:OR, as we are only allowed to state uncontroversial facts from primary sources, without own interpretation. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 00:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for this reply! I will be able to properly respond to this on Monday or Tuesday, as well as add appropriate information & clarifications. My drafting / writing process is not very organized so this helps a lot.
Three clarifications I can make right now on this talk page:
  • Jiménez was the manager of Santa Julia, then Morelia and Ultimo Retiro; however at Abisinia he was the sub manager of Abelardo Agüero, who was undisputedly the man in charge of Abisinia.
  • Abisinia was a rubber station, I do not know if indigenous people inhabited the site before Agüero and his subordinates appeared there. Abisinia is located between the Igaraparana tributary of the Putumayo and the Cahuinari tributary of the Caquetá river; it is not close to the rivers though and it was regarded by Casement as an “in land station”. The rubber collected by indigenous people at Abisinia, and it’s subordinate stations [Morelia and another rubber producing station]. During the collection period for rubber, the indigenous people subjugated to extracting rubber at Abisinia would March with their loads of rubber to Santa Julia. From Santa Julia the rubber was shipped to the company headquarters of La Chorrera or directly to Iquitos.
  • The quote regarding Jiménez being the “least criminal” manager at La Chorrera’s agency comes after the introduction of this quotes source, although that should most likely be elaborated upon to remove any confusion.
Arawoke (talk) 06:31, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Take your time! But no need to explain those to me (unless you have specific questions / are unsure how to solve the issue); it is enough to improve the text so that it is clear to readers (including me). Also note that my comment on the company names in the lead is, I think, still not really addressed; you explained this to me, but the lead still does not make any connection between "Peruvian Amazon Company" and "César Arana’s rubber enterprise"; this needs more context (e.g., add "which became the Peruvian Amazon Company in xxxx" or similar). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: @Arawoke and Jens Lallensack: Where are we with this review? Just asking because it's been about a month and the January 2025 backlog drive is coming up. IntentionallyDense (Contribs) 20:30, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, we should move on with this. Arawoke, I was waiting for your ping; have my above comments already been addressed? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:35, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I have addressed your comments in the articles prose / text however it took me longer than I expected it to due to being busy with work, I forgot to ping you on the talk page. I’m unsatisfied with the amount of secondary sources that provide more context on Jiménez, but I’ve added all of those sources I could find. As far as I’m aware I’ve elaborated upon the quotes / sentences that you pointed out earlier in this review as missing context. Arawoke (talk) 20:45, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I had another look; in some places, I think that you are still too close to primary sources, so I cannot promote it just yet, but I think (hope) that we are close now.

  • Torres was dismissed by Jimenez because his actions were "too much for Jiménez". – You state this as fact, and this sentence implies to me that he was dismissed because of his brutality. However, the source goes on saying "as a punishment, or for some other reason", so it seems we actually don't know this?
  • I can certify that the last who left Abisinia-Agüero and Jimenez-did so because of the attitude of the said manager. – I had to read several times until I figured out that I couldn't understand the sentence because you used a simple hyphen (-) when you should have used an en dash (–, with spaces) or an em dash (—, without spaces); please check what is used in the source as this is a quote.
  • "Morelia" – this section is very long, any chance to structure it with subheadings? Are the listed events in chronological order? If so, maybe you could use subsections for the different years?.
  • Prior to his departure from the Putumayo, Agüero had several of the native crop fields around Abisinia burned in an attempt to rouse the Boras natives into rebellion.[155][156] The muchacho Jose Maria stated that Agüero wanted to take him to Brazil to continue working in the rubber industry, however Jose refused. Jose stated Agüero was taking eighteen natives with him from the Putumayo, including six of his concubines and four brother-in-laws of Jose, however Jose did not clarify if Jiménez was travelling with this group.[50] According to Paredes's information, Agüero was travelling with as many as seventy natives.[157] In 1911, it was reported that Agüero was travelling around the Purus River[158] with Miguel Flores, Armando Blondel, Filomeno Vasquez and "a large number of Indians with them"[159] however the report did not mention Jiménez. – I wonder if this whole part should be removed, as it does not seem to be about Jiménez. You say "however the report did not mention Jiménez", which, I think, is already WP:Synth, because there is no source stating this, and, as far as I see, there is no source making a connection between the report and Jiménez?
  • The entire last paragraph appears to be WP:Synth as well? As I understand it, you searched for publications that were apparently written by this person or where his name is mentioned and took that into the article, e.g., In 1929, a document published by the Peruvian ministry of House and Commerce listed an "Augusto Jiménez S." as a custom agent on the Tahuamanu River. You also list an article in German (how can he suddenly speak German?).
  • Tizon was a senior manager of the Peruvian Amazon Company at La Chorrera. – no source. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 22:10, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will be able to make these adjustments soon, during the weekends I’m usually working. However, I have taken the time to review the primary sources relating to bullet point one. Tízon is credited with that quote in the cited source however it’s a misquote based on a PAC employees interview with Casement, and Casement believed that man had a grudge against Torres. I believe that information could be removed from the article.
bullet point 4 I will have to check the sources for. I tried finding information clarifying rather or not aguero and jimenez travelled together, but what I can find only confirms that they were together again in Bolivia in 1914.
Bullet point 5, the article in german is a translation of Jimenez’s work but translated by someone else, I’ll have to find the name of the translator. Paredes Pando’s book contains a document that places “Jimenez y Agüero” on the Tahuamanu river in 1916. I’ve found about two other sources that places Jimenez at Puerto Maldonado which is close to the Tahuamanu river, however that information is from a Facebook post.. the post in question has a photograph of “Augusto Jimenez Seminario” along with members of the Japanese colony at Puerto Maldonado but again I can’t find a reliable source that provides context here. Arawoke (talk) 14:47, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the facebook link to the photograph of Jimenez in Puerto Maldonado. Although I doubt I can make any use of it without access to the source of information the photo comes from.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2375354945899956&set=a.368739626561508&locale=ga_IE Arawoke (talk) 14:49, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quelle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Augusto_Jim%C3%A9nez_Seminario