The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus is clearly against deleting. Whether this should be merged or not can take place with a second discussion, elsewhere.  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:25, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

VisualEditor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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I can't see that this has reached 'notability'; it isnt standalone software. It is part of MediaWiki, is only deployed on some Wikipedias, and it is only because of the notability of Wikipedia that there are PR pieces about this feature. It is a paragraph in the article about MediaWiki and Wikipedia; not a standalone article. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 02:32, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - WP:NOTINHERITED. Ansh666 06:44, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per below. Somehow that didn't cross my mind. Ansh666 22:02, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • and redirect to either Visual editor or Mediawiki. Ansh666 20:18, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Looking at the article now, I'll go keep (or redirect per Carrite...I wish). Ansh666 17:44, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge (see comment way below) to MediaWiki for the time being. If the secondary coverage adds up, it might still become a notable standalone topic. GregorB (talk) 08:07, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to MediaWiki. Per source searches, the topic doesn't appear have received enough coverage in reliable sources to qualify for a standalone article (WP:GNG). However, this information would enhance the MediaWiki article. Northamerica1000^(talk) 10:03, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Leaning keep per WP:NTEMP - Changed my initial !vote above (now struck & indented). Upon review of User talk:Widefox's sources below, these reliable sources provide significant coverage: The Economist, PC World, DNA. Also, here's coverage from The Guardian. Northamerica1000^(talk) 14:49, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• user:Northamerica1000, those sources you have picked are not suitable. The dna article is a a blog post written by wikipedians; the guardian piece is a copy&paste of WP:VE. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 21:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to Mediawiki. Thanks for the ping via notification. Changing my !vote in finality to merge. Struck and indented my previous !vote above. Struck those two sources in my !vote above, and thanks for the info. about this. These two articles both provide significant coverage: The Economist, PC World. However, WP:NOTNEWS is generally applicable in this case, so a merge would may be more in order. Per WP:PRESERVE, the information should be retained in the encyclopedia in some form. Northamerica1000^(talk) 04:09, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - Now undecided. Sorry to have to strike again (above), but the article has been significantly expanded, and I haven't assessed the new sources yet. Northamerica1000^(talk) 06:11, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Sources The Verge #2 dailydot.com Engadget aosabook.org The Register The Atlantic The economist techzone360 softpedia h-online pcworld The Verge Ubergizmo Ghacks The Next Web techgeek.com.au ciol.com Webpronews pcadvisor.co.uk
  • not RS secondary: iamdigitalnative shellypalmer DNA India technology.org bristolwireless wikipediocracy thewikipedianprimary spamblocked non-RS The Guardian Widefox; talk 10:52, 26 July 2013 (UTC) (updated Widefox; talk 23:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC) )[reply]
• Weak Keep (article creator) WP:DEMOLISH That's enough secondary sources for a full standalone article (too large to be merged given a chance) WP:GNG. Don't think NOTINHERITED is obvious per se apply as sources are about this topic (and MediaWiki, en.WP) and it is a distinct, notable software subproject/component (cf Adblock Plus (and all the browser extensions and Category:Software add-ons) Init Windows PowerShell V8 (JavaScript engine) SpiderMonkey (JavaScript engine) etc - WP:OTHERSTUFF applies of course). There's scope for now a full article: browser support profile is different, reaction/acceptance, use in sizable parents MediaWiki Wikipedia English Wikipedia History of Wikipedia Template:Wikipedia (history section), 103 files in commons, with standalone article having overlapping scope to parents, although take point about how tied to MediaWiki it is. (note any merge/redirect should take account of this formerly being a cross-space redirect). Widefox; talk 10:52, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The current coverage might be argued to fall under WP:NOTNEWS. It has to be not only reasonably wide, but also reasonably continuous (as opposed to episodic). It is far from clear whether VisualEditor will receive any coverage a year or two down the road or not. GregorB (talk) 11:18, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly the rollout announcements might, changed to weak keep. It is lacking a couple of articles on the technology, feedback, or effect on WP. WP:NOTTEMPORARY would discount the future coverage aspect though. Widefox; talk 13:37, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

After adding the partnership details with Wikia, and feedback from editors I'm quite happy to go back to full keep on balance. Some IT project articles can surface as news sources, being able to have an article to include published feedback is, I believe a healthy thing. Although I understand the concerns of other editors based on NEWS, it would seem a bit early to merge a topic that's not going away with significant coverage. I believe this topic should be handled as any other topic, but nom based on software subprojects not being notable is flawed. In order to keep perceptions of WP being NPOV about this topic, as the nom is a committee member of the Wikimedia Australia, extra care should be taken to decide based on policy, standalone software is irrelevant to notability. We shouldn't bend over to keep it, or shoot ourselves in the foot to delete either. One source I found has forked it to incorporate in their own wiki anyhow, as is common with open source projects (cf javascript engines above). Widefox; talk 12:32, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Components of software product can become notable, and the line between product and component isnt a straight one. (e.g. SpiderMonkey is a product foremost). Our policy for this is NOTINHERIT, and IMO VisualEditor is a long way from standalone notability. The press coverage that I have seen has been about VE within the context of its (planned) deployment on Wikipedia; not as a standalone entity worthy of separate consideration. As such, this should be covered as a chapter of the Wikipedia & MediaWiki articles until it has proven to be a useful reusable component that grows a life of its own. If it is a very large chapter, it should be a separate subtopic named "MediaWiki VisualEditor" or similar. (p.s. I'd love to see that source claiming to have forked it for a different wiki.) John Vandenberg ^(chat) 21:38, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree sourcing lacks independence from parent topics to strongly resist merge based on independent notability/size at time of nom. The article is now more than a stub, or a paragraph in one parent. A seamless component of MediaWiki it isn't either - (see browser support for separate constraints on users, and constraints on type of page editable). No idea what you're saying about the SpiderMonkey "product" (or "software product"). "product" is orthogonal to standalone vs component so irrelevant - no line between or mutual exclusion (but I digress). As for forks and usage outside of WP, (open source would make limiting deployment to Wikipedias difficult, or guessing it won't be used elsewhere) presumably Wikia is the elephant in the room for starters... it was this parsoid fork, there's others Wikia VisualEditor fork and branches , and chatter [1], openstreetmap and users asking how to install theverge comment or use just VE in their project without MW. This is WP:DEMOLISH / WP:DEADLINE vs WP:CRYSTAL / Wikipedia:Merging The delete nom is 1/2 flawed (subproject) 1/2 outdated (full article too large) due to article improvements a merge nom is more appropriate (which I can understand why one has now sprung up) . Regards Widefox; talk 23:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep This page has had coverage in external sources here and here among other places. It therefore fits the notability guideline and should be kept as such.155blue (talk) 13:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge to MediaWiki. Is there coverage? Yes. Is it independently notable? Not in the slightest. Most of the coverage violates WP:NOTNEWS as being stuff about its release. 155blue's sources both fall into that trap, as do the majority of Widefox's sources (many of which fall a long way short of RS anyway, such as Wikipediocracy and Examiner) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:15, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• merge to Mediawiki. Without the unnecessary quote and excessive usage details there's hardly any content, and it's never likely to grow beyond a stub (or if it could, because it becomes a notable standalone product, the article will no doubt be restarted).--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 20:27, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree - the quote captures the project motivation, and as a primary source I quoted it. Improved/Expanded - I believe it now is on a better footing to be rescued. Widefox; talk 13:24, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:51, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:52, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Widefox; talk 13:59, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to Visual editor. Redirecting to MediaWiki would be a mistake because visual editor (with a space) is a widely used generic term (the first visual editor may have been vi). This is a plausible search term and it would be confusing for editors to find themselves at a page about Wikipedia when searching for information about visual editors. Pburka (talk) 19:08, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I redirected visualeditor to visual editor. Don't think that's a concern now due to the capital V. Widefox; talk 23:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge per my comment at Talk:MediaWiki. We could always add a note in italics at the beginning should readers find this confusing.--Jasper Deng (talk) 04:23, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - Must.........not..........make.........joke........about.........redirecting.........to.........Guinea pig....... Augh!!! Carrite (talk) 04:33, 28 July 2013 (UTC) [reply]

My on-topic comment is redirect target isn't obvious, as split between MediaWiki#Editing interface, Wikipedia, Wikia, and the original cross-project space redirect, but I'm sure the content can be split and diluted. Carrite My offtopic isn't Guinea pig, but Technological fix - the challenge to foster/recruit and retain editors isn't the technology, it's the culture around the progressive maturity/complexity of editors, processes and article space. Want to expand editor participation? sure, but cite above single-handed WP:CARCASS to keep a major project having an NPOV article on the pursuit alive. Merge it before it has a chance. Sure it could be merged. Sure it could be kept. Expect new users to bother finding the topic in large articles or project space? Who cares as long as we follow our rules. Want a place where experienced (and new) editors can get an overview in a location they can have a say over (obviously referenced). This is your space and moment. This was it. The challenge is re-thinking the culture and processes to be proportionate, not only with new editors to deliver an attitudinal fix. Widefox; talk 23:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: Too soon. Not enough sources pbp 19:23, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per WP:HEY. The article has been fixed up with good sources. Alternately, redirect to guinea pig per carrite (/snark). Bearian (talk) 17:28, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's improved since nom [2] (using the sources above), !voters above may want to consider the now non-stub version. Widefox; talk 21:57, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• And it now looks dangerously close to an advertising piece. And STILL doesn't establish independent notability. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:11, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I added a reception/risk to lead. Does that help? Feel free to tag or mark/adjust for advert/NPOV. How do you propose to shoehorn the biggest (multifaceted/complex/controversial) project/change to the #6 popular site into one MW/WP/Wikia article? Seems notable to me. Widefox; talk 12:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. The article is now developed to a point in which merge to MediaWiki - already a rather big article - is not necessarily a good idea anymore. So, while this is purely a technical reason not to merge, I believe it is still valid, and that's why I'm striking out my initial position ("Merge", see above). The reason I'm not changing it to "Keep" is that I'm still far from convinced in continued notability (= beyond WP:NOTNEWS) of the subject in the future, as already argued. GregorB (talk) 11:36, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, although the project size and importance seems to be notable as covered by sources. Although WP:NOTTEMPORARY doesn't need continued notability, there's the one online book source on Mediawiki that covers it. (WP:AVOIDSPLIT wasn't on purpose - done due to already created cross-wiki redirect). Widefox; talk 12:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to Mediawiki. The topic is not independently notable and the sources are generally not independent of the topic. I see that the article is already long; some of the (un-sourced or poorly sourced) content can be moved to WP:VisualEditor, especially that which cannot be merged into Mediawiki. I also agree with Jasper Deng's comments. - tucoxn\^talk 23:49, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.