Langbahn Team – Weltmeisterschaft

Talk:2024 South Korean martial law crisis

Accurate Korean name?

Full disclosure: I do not know Korean.

That being said, I'm wondering if the Korean name is what Koreans would use to refer to this event on its own. The article states that the Korean name is "윤석열 정부 비상계엄", which seems to translate to "Yoon Suk Yeol government emergency martial law". But this name is from one article where it is only used in the headline as part of a longer sentence: "성공회 정의평화사제단 “윤석열 정부 비상계엄, 내란 행위 처벌받아야”" (Google Translate: Anglican Justice and Peace Priests Association: “Yoon Seok-yeol government’s martial law and sedition must be punished”). So it's not being used as a proper noun per se, but rather a reference to the fact that Yoon established this period of martial law.

The Korean Wikipedia article uses 2024년 대한민국 비상계엄 (2024 South Korea emergency martial law) but also uses 12.3 내란(12.3 內亂, December 3 insurrection) and 12.3 사태(12.3事態, December 3 situation). This seems to track with the use of dates in previous martial law references (and broadly in Korean and East Asian terminology). For instance, ko:5·16 군사정변 (16 May coup), ko:10월 유신 (October Restoration), and ko:12·12 군사 반란 (Coup d'état of December Twelfth).

If a Korean resident could provide more context or discussion that would be great. Thank you.

MSG17 (talk) 16:23, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Arguably the {{Infobox Korean name}} (and the displaying of Korean text for the title of this article) is not needed altogether; we're on the English Wikipedia and don't need to determine a WP:COMMONNAME for a different language. Also note that the Korean Wikipedia doesn't have WP:COMMONNAME as a policy.
All of the terms presented are fine imo. I don't know which is most common; it'll likely shift over time. I'd say some inclusion of "비상계염" feels most common to me for this event. While the number date matches other incidents, it's not really that common for this event in my experience. But that may change in future, due to recency bias.
tl;dr: I think we should get rid of the Korean-language text and not worry about it seefooddiet (talk) 21:02, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Since no one else responded and I think this reasoning is solid I decided to WP:BEBOLD and remove the Korean name template. MSG17 (talk) 10:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 January 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There's a clear consensus against moving the page here. While there conversation here for splitting the page into separate topics, that's out of the remit of a requested move discussion. (closed by non-admin page mover) Steven Crossin Help resolve disputes! 23:23, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

2024 South Korean martial law crisis → 2024-2025 South Korean political crisis – Many media outlets have described the events over the past month or so as a political crisis stemming directly from the declaration of martial law. I post some examples:

If need be, we can make this the title of a separate associated article instead. Image2012 (talk) 07:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reasoning: prose word count is 11,180 words. Per WP:SIZERULE, it's already in reasonable split territory. Once a split occurs, we prune discussion of the aftermath into one or more WP:SUMMARY-style sections. seefooddiet (talk) 11:36, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I do think that is a good option. Image2012 (talk) 07:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support: This article should be split in two: one for the declaration and the aftermath being sent to a 2024–2025 South Korean political crisis article. EchoLuminary (talk) 00:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: It would be unwieldy to put everything together in one article. 2024–2025 South Korean political crisis is also too broad a name. 2024 South Korean martial law crisis is more specific and clear. Motjustescribe (talk) 03:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The martial law was declared in 2024, just because the aftermath continues into 2025 doesn't mean it should be renamed. It should also be considered why the year is in the title in the first place; this is to distinguish it from other martial law crises in Korea's history, it doesn't need to be so meticulous as to include the aftermath in the dating except as further articulated in the article itself. 𝙏𝙚𝙧𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙢𝙖𝙣地形人 (talk) 08:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Even though initially it is caused by the martial law declaration, the event is still categorized as a political crisis. CS012831 (talk) 18:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I would support a different article splitting from this covering the aftermath of 3-4 December called the 2024-2025 political crisis, but this article should stay as focusing on the martial law declaration with synthesized aftermath sections. Renaming this article to the crisis would explode its scope, probably necessitating a further split off of the martial law period anyways. Yeoutie (talk) 16:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Should we pursue a splitting proposal instead? Image2012 (talk) 04:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, many proposed splitting. EchoLuminary (talk) 05:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I guess that settles it. Image2012 (talk) 06:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone want to set up a splitting proposal? Image2012 (talk) 11:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I can do after this discussion lapses seefooddiet (talk) 12:18, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose rename and support a split as these two things are related but they are not identical. Jorahm (talk) 18:36, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose and weak support for split proposal - in addition to splitting off "2024-2025 South Korean political crisis", how about also renaming this article to "2024 South Korean martial law declaration"? I think the struggle we are facing is that while the martial law itself ended in 2024, the political crisis has continued into 2025, but "martial law crisis" is a hybrid term that's unclear if it refers to the actual period of martial law or if it also includes the resulting political crisis. As long as this article is called "martial law crisis", I think people will keep disputing whether the title should say 2024 or 2024-2025 because of this inherent ambiguity. I'm not 100% on a split, but I'm not sure how else to resolve this. Helpful Cat (talk) 22:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We previously considered "Martial law declaration" in the last move discussion, but the issue is that "declaration" reads like the martial law didn't take effect (it did for a few hours) or that the scope of the article only covers the declaration and not the execution of the martial law.
I agree that the current title and split title is confusing. seefooddiet (talk) 22:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
How about 2024 South Korean martial law imposition or 2024 South Korean imposition of martial law 𝙏𝙚𝙧𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙢𝙖𝙣地形人 (talk) 22:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think that could work? So this article would be moved to 2024 South Korean martial law imposition and the split-off article would be 2024–2025 South Korean political crisis?
At this point momentum on this convo has already slowed, so I think it'd be easier to let this move discussion expire then propose a new one. seefooddiet (talk) 23:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well, perhaps. Personally I am not sure if a split is warranted. The political events which have followed fit within the 'aftermath' of the imposition. But if there were a split those article names would be fitting. 𝙏𝙚𝙧𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙢𝙖𝙣地形人 (talk) 23:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
See [1] for split rationale seefooddiet (talk) 23:42, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: - I concur with the other oppositions in suggesting the current title stays the same. The martial law incident is but one episode of the 24-25 South Korean political crisis (albeit a rather important one given it has led to Yoon's impeachment and arrest) and should have its own article. Tkd1996 (talk) 23:39, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Yoon has been arrested - Corruption Investigation Office

Article has been created, see Arrest of Yoon Suk Yeol. 💽 🌙Eclipse 💽 🌹 ⚧ (she/they) talk/edits 17:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Title says all.[1] 2601AC47 (talk·contribs·my rights) Isn't a IP anon 01:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "South Korea: Investigators enter impeached president Yoon Suk Yeol's residence in second arrest attempt South Korean authorities arrest impeached president Yoon Suk Yeol". BBC News. January 15, 2025. Retrieved January 15, 2025.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Splitting proposal

I propose that the section about the aftermath be split into a separate page called 2024–2025 South Korean political crisis. It is clear that the declaration has become the opening salvo of a major crisis in the country, and I believe splitting the article would make this clear. Image2012 (talk) 04:04, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support a split per my reasoning here. seefooddiet (talk) 04:12, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Very weak support for a split - I think these topics are inherently very closely linked and am not 100% on a split, but I do see how the political crisis could be presented more clearly and thoroughly in a standalone article than in the "Aftermath" section.
Additional proposal (reiterating my proposal in the last move discussion): if/when the political crisis is split off, I propose that this current article be moved to 2024 South Korean martial law declaration. This is because the current title is a hybrid: it's unclear whether "martial law crisis" refers only to the actual period of martial law (which ended in 2024) or the political crisis as a result of martial law (which is ongoing), hence the repeated disputes about whether the title should say 2024 or 2024-25, whether the political consequences of martial law belong in "Events" or "Aftermath", etc.
I see @Seefooddiet was against this wording because "declaration" implies the declaration didn't take effect, or that the article is only about the declaration and not execution of martial law - I personally don't think this is the case, as the natural result of martial law being declared is that it's in effect and is executed until it's lifted again. However, I'm also fine with alternative wordings such as "imposition of martial law". My main point is that the term "martial law crisis" should be removed (especially if the article is split, because having one "political crisis" article and one "martial law crisis" article would be especially confusing and would lead to a lot of scope overlap) Helpful Cat (talk) 17:47, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It should be 2024-2025, per MOS:YEARRANGE 𝙏𝙚𝙧𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙢𝙖𝙣地形人 (talk) 18:04, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Image2012 𝙏𝙚𝙧𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙢𝙖𝙣地形人 (talk) 18:05, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I can change that, right? Image2012 (talk) 23:27, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I did it for you. 𝙏𝙚𝙧𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙢𝙖𝙣地形人 (talk) 23:33, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose Although I think it makes sense, I think that the 'political crisis' or just 'aftermath' is so closely and directly related that it would seem absurd to have a separate article. It it were something which lasted years after the event I would understand. It is my personal view that there is nothing wrong with long articles, and that often the article length guidelines are misinterpreted and overzealously subscribed to, I think in many circumstances an article is well warranted to exceed 10k words.
There could be another article made, and the information in aftermath made more concise, with greater elaboration on the main article, however I am not convinced it is necessary. 𝙏𝙚𝙧𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙢𝙖𝙣地形人 (talk) 04:55, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Then we'd have to reckon with the article title implying only the 2024 period of martial law and not necessarily including including the aftermath of the event that extends into 2025. I know I should be discussing the current content of the article, but there's a lot to say about the aftermath that's still not in here. We also already have Arrest of Yoon Suk Yeol and 2025 Seoul Western District Court riot separate already. seefooddiet (talk) 05:00, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"We also already have Arrest of Yoon Suk Yeol" Then why don't we just move info from the segments within Aftermath into main articles like that, and Impeachment of Yoon Suk Yeol. 𝙏𝙚𝙧𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙢𝙖𝙣地形人 (talk) 05:10, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We wouldn't really have a home base for the overall 2024–2025 crisis then. All those events I just linked are connected, without a real centralized place to link them together. The martial law declaration and 2024–2025 crisis would be the main parent articles. The impeachment, arrest, riot would be children of the 2024–2025 crisis article. seefooddiet (talk) 05:17, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support This article's scope (and title) should be changed to only cover the declaration (or imposition, whichever wording is fine). This article's aftermath section should point to 2024–2025 South Korean political crisis. Will use the January 6 United States Capitol attack article as an example. A political event that lasted a couple of hours but caused such a large aftermath that it has its own article (Aftermath of the January 6 United States Capitol attack). This article covers impeachment, crackdowns, and investigations that stemmed from the event.
Why call it 2024–2025 South Korean political crisis instead of Aftermath to 2024 South Korean martial law declaration/imposition? Many news outlets (although I am basing it on international news) have already called the sequence of events (impeachment, attempted arrest, arrest, protests, impeachment of acting president) as a political crisis. Articles for Impeachment of Yoon Suk Yeol, Arrest of Yoon Suk Yeol, Impeachment of Han Duck-soo, and 2025 Seoul Western District Court riot already exist and the political crisis can serve as their parent article. The investigations into other public officers can also be adequately explained in the political crisis article with its own header. EchoLuminary (talk) 17:11, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support Aftermath of the 2024 South Korean martial law crisis seefooddiet (talk) 21:38, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If we go down the Aftermath path, I would support Aftermath of the 2024 South Korean martial law declaration or Aftermath of the 2024 South Korean martial law imposition. But do prefer 2024–2025 South Korean political crisis, as it has been described as a political crisis by news outlets. EchoLuminary (talk) 01:04, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I misread your OP; you were asking a rhetorical question. Yeah 2024–2025 South Korean political crisis is fine. seefooddiet (talk) 01:37, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support - splitting is a good idea. Moondragon21 (talk) 17:58, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support currently ongoing major event suggesting WP:Splitting is needed. QalasQalas (talk) 04:30, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, but creation of the subject of Aftermath of the 2024 South Korean martial law crisis as it is linked to related Articles for Impeachment of Yoon Suk Yeol, Arrest of Yoon Suk Yeol, Impeachment of Han Duck-soo, and 2025 Seoul Western District Court riot. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:16, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I think we need an article to cover the entire political crisis, while this article should focus solely on the declaration and removal of martial law as a single event. Nebulatria (talk) 12:24, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support The political crisis/aftermath is related to the martial law crisis, but it covers separate events. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 21:33, 6 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Very weak support Given your reasoning, it sounds like a good idea to me. FridgeMelter (talk) 21:20, 7 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support Very much agree for this umbrella article to be made, covering this martial law imposition as well as the impeachments, etc that have flowed from it. This article should retain its aftermath section but synthesize and shorten the legal proceedings and impeachment subsections.Yeoutie (talk) 16:35, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Quelle: Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2024_South_Korean_martial_law_crisis