The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Keep - I sincerely apologize for not following proper procedure, which I will try to do in the future. I have filed a request here to create such a category. That being said, if rock song stubs are not divided into separate decades, there could end up being several thousand stubs in this category by the end of the century. People may put {{2000s-rock-song-stub}} in the article thinking that "2000s" means the 21st century. --Jax 0677 (talk) 23:52, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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Society by country
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Rename. These are logically required following the change of the parent from "by nationality" to "by country" at CFD March 12. The contents are about countries rather than diasporas. Most of the contents are named by country rather than nationality. – FayenaticLondon18:21, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
All of the corresponding Culture categories are in the Society categories; I checked that last week. For Ireland, there are corresponding sub-cats for the Republic of Ireland and for Northern Ireland. It all makes sense. – FayenaticLondon19:05, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think on balance - Chinese culture vs Culture of China - or Chinese society vs Society of China - leads me to prefer the former rather than the latter, since it just seems a bit broader and representative of the contents.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:28, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't see a good rationale for making such sweeping change. The culture or society of a country is not limited by political boundaries (that is Welsh society or Welsh culture is not limited to Wales). There is also the assumption that there is a unified society when cultures and societies are mixtures and contain many subcultures. If this proposal goes through, it definitely should be discussed on a variety of political, international relations, sociological and anthropological WikiProjects or, at the least, they should receive talk page notifications. LizRead!Talk!23:55, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'd agree that adjectives are more forgiving and cover the subleties better than trying to force into "countries" - for instance Ireland isn't a country, one of its subcategories is and one isn't, yet that's meant to fit what is mostly a "country" category. Adjectives also cope better with historical societies - Norman culture generally implies you're in the Middle Ages and roaming from Scandinavia to Sicily, whereas culture of Normandy implies you're talking about the modern day region of France. Inherently "culture" is something that reflects ethnic and cultural "fuzz" rather than modern political boundaries, in contrast to something like "Law of ..." or "Government of ..." Le Deluge (talk) 00:42, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Obiwankenobi, Liz, Le Deluge: there is no change to the Culture categories, just Society. Most of the contents of the "Society" categories are Law, Government, etc, which are limited to the national borders.
Comment I think a split should be done to the proposed titles, so that society in Country X can contain information about ethnic Group Y from country Y in country X and not be confused with ethnic group X from country X in country Z. -- 70.24.250.235 (talk) 05:58, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Bangladeshi society would have subcategories of your examples, while having a sibling category for Society in Bangladesh. Society of Bangladesh would cover all aspects of the society in the country including minority groups and non-Bangladeshi diaspora populations in Bangladesh, while Bangladeshi society would cover the diaspora of Bangladesh, and the majority Bangladeshi society of Bangladesh. -- 70.24.250.235 (talk) 09:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think this is excessive subcategorization. We try to make subcats really subcats, but culture and society and many other things simply bleed over the borders, but I don't think it means we should split them somehow.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
On the one hand, this alternate proposal does have a certain logic to it. On the other hand, it leads to a very complex and, I think, unwieldy arrangement that would probably be overly confusing for readers to be able to navigate. Cgingold (talk) 23:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I agree with you both. For countries that have only a few sub-categories under Society, it would clearly be unhelpful. So we are just back to the alternative outcome below, i.e. renaming the parent. – FayenaticLondon10:44, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Cgingold: I only supported the rename of the head category at CFD March 12 because I have long thought that these national categories were mis-named. If they are to be kept, e.g. "Afghan", well, that is a nationality; only if they were renamed to e.g. "of Afghanistan" would "by country" match the contents. "By country" or "by nationality" should be used according to the naming of the national sub-cats, not according to one's view of the nature of the contents. – FayenaticLondon13:12, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - With sincere apologies to Fayenatic for the time put into this proposal, there is no inherent contradiction in organizing by country at the top level the discussions of culture and cultural diasporas. Some geographically bounded "countries" may contain more than one culture and be the origin of more than one diaspora, but such situations are easily addressable within a text covering that country. If there is no inherent contradiction, it seems like a wasteful expenditure of time to do all this re-naming. Meclee (talk) 14:25, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Meclee: Yes, yes, and that's why Culture will remain "by nationality". The question is at what level to make the switch from "by country" to "by nationality". IMHO, the Society categories – which are between the main country level and the culture categories – should be "by country", following the nature of most (by far) of the other contents. – FayenaticLondon20:36, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
support alternative proposal though I fear it may be better to hit the reset button. 'Country' or 'nationality' are Both wrong actually, it should really be Category:Society by national origin and myth in the imaginary of citizens of said nation - in that for many of these things we can't firmly establish whether tradition or food or practice as is 'Italian' when the nation state of Italy was a relatively recent creation, so a lot of this is related to the historical imagining and revisionist continuous histories that people use to link them to the past, even if their present state conquered and perhaps destroyed what was previously there. I can't think of a better shorter term, either one is actually fine, so I will throw my support behind whichever one others like - society by country or society by nationality, both are slightly wrong but close enough indeed.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:58, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I agree with the above comment from Obi-Wan Kenobi, but only if he's the Alec Guinness and not the new guy. I'm not sure I understand using the lesser/greater of two ill-defined terms, when "Society by national origin and myth in the imaginary of citizens of said nation" actually works best. I do see Fayenatic's point as such and appreciate the time he put into this. Mvblair (talk) 17:21, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Favor. "Society" first. More objective. I would prefer country, but that is really a separate change from what the discussion first started out to be. "Society of Abenaki" instead of "Society of North American Natives" or "Society of the United States" or whatever. These are simply three competing articles calling for a different solution. Society first. That is the decision that needs to be made. Student7 (talk) 21:36, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Women Egyptologists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Merge. This is a follow on to this discussion. The possibility of upmerging this to Category:Egyptologists was proposed as an add on to nomination being discussed. With only 3 articles, the idea probably should get a full discussion. I'm still neutral but thinking abut it. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:07, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Upmerge obviously. Archaeology is not a profession where there has been a significant gender divide in many years (if ever). There is thus no need for a gender split. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:41, 6 April 2014 (UTC)----[reply]
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Category:Cross-dressing in media
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reverse merge, just put it all in media, that way if we have non-fiction it could fit there as well, I don't see a need to separate out fiction at this point.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:03, 27 March 2014 (UTC)----[reply]
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Shades of Colors
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Category:Death of women
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Excessive sub categorization. We already have a parent which covers the topic of women and death, and all of these articles would work fine in the parent. Additionally, this category actually suggests a wider scope, meaning people may start to place articles that mention a woman dying within, which is not the intent here. Merging up will help tighten the scope so it remains for articles on the topic of intersection of women and death. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:23, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This category and the parent category are not particularly small (total 9 subcats and 43 pages) so it's not excessive sub categorization. It's useful to separate articles about deaths of women from articles about other things (e.g. female murderers, female mourning). If anything, it's Category:Women and death which should be purged/deleted (along with many other "Foo and bar" categories). If necessary, the scope can be clarified/tightened using inclusion criteria. (category creator) DexDor (talk) 22:28, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But we don't want to have articles about deaths of women - I already removed one article about a woman who died - this is silly to gather these together in this way - e.g. "Here is a person who died" + "she was a woman" - I see no need to collect such articles together. I proposed deletion of Category:Women and death earlier but people liked it, so consensus is to keep, I just don't think we need to divide further, these are all on the topic of women and death, that's close enough...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:33, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Women_and_death CFD closed as no consensus and the argument to delete/upmerge that category is stronger now that a chunk of that category is in the the Death_of_women category. Women_and_death isn't really one topic; it's a collection of topics that are separate intersections of the topic of women with the topic of death. DexDor (talk) 21:18, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, I'm all with you, but I wasn't able to get that one deleted, people seemed to like "random mishmash of something to do with death and something to do with women". The problem with this cat is it may start collecting articles about women who died, which is a bad idea. Sadly, death takes us all, women and men and boys and girls, and I don't see the value in genderizing, but if we do, let's keep it to a single cat.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:27, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep useful sub categorisation. e.g. Medea and death goddesses are plainly in a different category to dead women. I have notified WP:Death where there may be more insight into this grouping. Ephebi (talk) 15:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC)----[reply]
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Category:Law enforcement museums and memorials in Canada
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Category:Single-deck solitaire card games
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
I think a merge is better, since we have Category:Double deck solitaire card games, I don't feel like there's value in separating out solitaire played with 52 card deck vs spanish deck (50 cards), or italian deck (40 cards), or German skat deck (36 cards), or austrian schnapsen deck (24 cards), or tarot deck (78 cards). Single deck is close enough.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:31, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is simple category diffusion, common practice on Wikipedia. If you have a large category, it can help navigation if you diffuse it into smaller subcats. So in this case, the parent is Category:Single-deck solitaire card games, and so Category:52-card deck solitaire card games is a subcat of that. no need for a merge, which then makes a large voluminous category. And besides, as this is the english Wikipedia, I don't think it's beyond the pale to think that readers are likely going to be looking for 52-card deck related solitaires, as 52 cards is a common deck in primarily english-speaking countries, such as US, UK, Australia and elsewhere.
So this is a simple subcat choice, which helps navigation and helps readers find what they want/need. What's the converse arguement? They all need to be dumped in a pile together, forcing readers to try to sift through all those pages to try to figure out which articles involved 52-card decks? Which do you think helps navigation? - jc3718:29, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
most games with fewer than 52 cards can be played with a stripped 52-card deck. Yes subcats can work here but I think it's an unneeded level of specification and the cat wouldn't be that big anyway and would probably fit on one page nonetheless.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:31, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
reverse merge—the key difference between single deck and double deck patience is that in a single deck there are no duplicate cards. The number of cards in the single deck doesn't change that fact that it's a single deck. See David Partlett's encyclopaedic work on patience games for more details. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 05:02, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Zabytki
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:rename as proposed. There's definitely a consensus here to use an English-language name. In the absence of a consensus for any alternative name, I'm defaulting so it matches the name of the article. It may be possible to reach a consensus on a different name through WP:RM. If so, the category name can then be changed speedily to match the new name.Good Ol’factory(talk)03:20, 10 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
speedy rename - further discussions about the appropriate English title should be had at the article; then the category should simply follow suit if it's decided to change.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:30, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I am all in favor of using English terms in category names whenever possible. However, it seems to me that we can do better than the current proposal. In particular, I think we should use the term "artifacts" rather than "objects". What about "Cultural artifacts in Poland" (wherein "heritage" is implicit)? Cgingold (talk) 03:33, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Property" would be a good term, except that it is ambiguous: besides "a thing... owned" and the like, it has a couple of other meanings, including a "trait or attribute... [a] peculiarity... any of the principal characteristics of a substance... an essential quality common to all members of... a class." Nihil novi (talk) 20:12, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps "Polish cultural monuments"? "Monument", derived ultimately from the Latin "monere", "to remind", is used in many senses, all of which are applicable in this context. For example, literary works may be classed as monuments, as in the title of [1] Bogdana Carpenter's Monumenta Polonica: the First Four Centuries of Polish Poetry: a Bilingual Anthology. I would use the wording "Polish cultural monuments" rather than "Cultural monuments in Poland", because a Polish cultural monument such as a painting or book might be found outside Poland, in another country. Nihil novi (talk) 20:41, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus: But the main article states that zabytek is defined as "creation of man or its byproduct". Natural monuments are only mentioned where they form part of a park, as the park can be a zabytek because it is manmade. If the Wikipedia article is wrong on this, please correct it. – FayenaticLondon13:27, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As the article name has never been discussed until now, we should start from scratch rather than treat it as a precedent. It can be renamed alongside the category. – FayenaticLondon22:22, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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