The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Owen× ☎ 15:56, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Saman Kunan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Contested BLAR. Fails WP:BIO1E per the consensus at the previous AfD. Very little has changed between the pre-AfD version and the current version of the article. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Events, and Thailand. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep: I've updated the article. The last AfD discussion was six years ago in 2018. At that time, his notability was unclear, but now he is being called a "national hero." His big statue has been erected in his town, and a memorial hall has been established—clear signs of his notability [1]. He was awarded the Knight Grand Cross (First Class) of the Order of the White Elephant by the King, which is not the third class that is typically given to minister-level individuals. The first class is rarely awarded and is reserved for individuals at the state level. So, he clearly passes WP:ANYBIO (and if disagree, WP:ANYBIO should be abolished.) The Order of the White Elephant is not a joke and the dream of many Thais; it's a prestigious honor similar to India's Padma Vibhushan. Some locals have venerated him as a deity or spirit. Moreover, he is the subject of a film, and in 2021, a TV drama titled Thirteen Lives was made (see coverage), in which he was portrayed by renowned actor Sukollawat Kanarot, and many significant, reliable sources have independently featured him. He easily meets WP:GNG and WP:BASIC, even if WP:ANYBIO isn’t considered. Here is the update article. ManoiCMU (talk) 03:19, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Passing ANYBIO does not automatically establish that a person is independently notable. It also doesn't override other notability guidelines, such as BIO1E and WP:PAGEDECIDE. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:27, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Here is the update article. The New York Post is generally unreliable. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:41, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Sure, if you are not happy with this, here is the original article [2] from Reuters, and extra from The Nation (Thailand). The NY Post is a mirror of the Reuters article. ManoiCMU (talk) 03:45, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Additionally, having a character in a TV drama about the notable event that this person is involved in does not establish notability of the person. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:43, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Don't cry....pls learn from many AfD outcomes. Other editors will decide his notability. Don't be serious. 55555. ManoiCMU (talk) 03:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Portraying him as a figure in TV series is a sign of notability and a popular culture. ManoiCMU (talk) 03:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ManoiCMU, this is not how notability is established on Wikipedia. And deletion discussions are a serious business. We're deciding what is and isn't appropriate content for this encyclopedia. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes...agree. I just a vote. Let others decide. ManoiCMU (talk) 06:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Update: Morevoer... In July 2019, the Airports of Thailand (AOT) established a large building named the Lt. Cdr. Saman Kunan Building in his honor. A 1.9-meter-wide by 2-meter-long bas-relief sculpture, standing 2 centimeters high, was installed in the building as a tribute [3], [4]. A merit-making ceremony was held four years after his passing. The source described it as being "to commemorate his sacrifice, bravery, and dedication, as well as his example of doing good with a volunteer heart." The event was organized by Air Vice Marshal Chananan Rodkul, Director of the Security Division, with all staff from the Royal Thai Army Security Division also joining in tribute, see. In 2023, he was honored as "the national hero turned legend" (source: "Looking Back 5 Years: 'Tham Luang Cave Rescue Mission' - A Hero in Our Memory"). This recognition establishes his status as a national figure. He is more than WP:BIO1E on Wikipedia. ManoiCMU (talk) 05:09, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It’s only on the many research pages of Google Scholar results for the English version of the article subject that you start to find academic papers without the Thai in the title. Almost all of them seem accessible to me (here are some good research articles: Eight Hanuman, heroes, and Buddhist masculinity in contemporary Thailand, “The Heroes”: A Visual Narration of The Rescue), indicating there is a wealth of in-depth research available. Here is good one in Thai: จ่า แซม: การ สื่อสาร ความ ทรง จำ ร่วม ใน สื่อ อิเล็กทรอนิกส์ "Sergeant Sam: Communicating Shared Memories on Electronic Media". He has several lengthy articles in various books Buddhist Masculinities, Stories for Boys Who Dare to be Different and many more. He was also in TIME Annual 2018. ManoiCMU (talk) 05:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is generally not helpful to refer other editors to search result pages. A source needs to contain significant coverage, not just a trivial mention of the article subject. You should also explain how the sources you're citing establish notability instead of just linking to them. Some responses to a few of the sources you've noted:

• From "Eight Hanuman" (which is the exact same chapter as the one you've labelled "Buddhist Masculinities"): This chapter considers the hegemonic Buddhist masculinities on display in another crisis: the Tham Luang cave rescue of 2018. The heroes of the cave rescue, I argue, were perceived as embodying the ideal masculinity of Hanuman, the monkey god of the Thai Buddhist Ramakien, an adaptation of the Hindu Rāmāyaṇa epic. I do not think that this is relevant to establishing that Kunan should have a separate article under BIO1E because this is an analysis of the cave rescue itself, and the fact that he was compared to a monkey god according to a gender studies scholar is undue.
• This source only has trivial mentions of Kunan.
• Stories for Boys Who Dare to Be Different is a children's book.
• The Time 2018 source is about the event and Kunan's role in it.

voorts (talk/contributions) 01:15, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that the source provides trivial mentions of Kunan. In a paper, see Figure 9 section, which explains the significance of his statue, likening it to that of a deity. Even discounting children's book sources, there are many research papers about him, and I included the children's biography as a backup reference. ManoiCMU (talk) 05:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I was asked by ManoiCMU at the article talk page to weigh in, but I don't really have an opinion on this. The subject is notable, but the question is whether said notability is independent enough to warrant a stand-alone article, which is a matter of editorial judgment. --Paul_012 (talk) 14:20, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Paul, you're the most oldest experienced Thai editor, with more knowledge of policies than I have. Even as a minor editor, I can see this subject is notable and sufficient for a stand-alone article. Why can’t you make a clear decision? You agree this subject is clearly notable, so please make an editorial judgment as an experienced editor. Thanks. ManoiCMU (talk) 05:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Subject is a naval officer who also got awarded as a Knight posthumous and this was covered by Bakpop , one of the oldest newspaper in Thailand .this is enough to establish his notability to meet WP:GNG and WP:SIGCOV. You can find it here https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/1503426/posthumous-promotion-for-ex-seal Tesleemah (talk) 13:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Tesleemah: The question here is not whether Kunan is notable, but whether this article should be redirected back to Tham Luang cave rescue under WP:BIO1E and WP:PAGEDECIDE. His posthumous award, the film, and other coverage of him are all related to the one event he's notable for. All of that information is currently covered in the cave rescue article and there is no need for a second article. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  If he is notable enough then he should stand alone with the content under Luang Cave Rescue either left intact or merged with his. Tesleemah (talk) 14:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: The subject has sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Saman Kunan (Thai: สมาน กุนัน) to pass the Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires ‘significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.’ Additionally, he meets WP:ANYBIO as a recipient of a first-class national order. Ordinary individuals do not receive large statues or have government buildings named after them. In Thailand, only prominent figures are honored in this way. He continues to receive significant coverage as a ‘national figure’ or ‘national martyr,’ even six years after his passing. I also sense WP:IDONTLIKE here. I am very familiar with similar cases, such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Win Maw Oo. Thanks.Marcus MT (talk) 13:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC) 12:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  He received those awards, statues, etc. because of the one event he's notable for. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by IDONTLIKEIT. Are you accusing me of being racist against Thai people and trying to erase their biographies from Wikipedia? I've provided a PAG-based reason for restoring the redirect. You may disagree with my rationale, but there's no need to throw around accusations about the intentions of other editors. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:22, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: Being a recipient of the Order of the White Elephant satifies WP:ANYBIO, and the subject has been mentioned in SIGCOV. This would simply pass WP:GNG, I guess. (Of course, such civilan awards would ask recipients to contribute to the country, like, by sacrificing their lives– the one-time event. Personllay I don't think it's WP:BIO1E ever since he was granted the award.) Htanaungg (talk) 09:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.