The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. John254 17:35, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perimeter Mall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This article goes to some lengths to explain the many and varied ways in which this mall is pretty much indistinguishable from a hundred others. It wasn't the first in the area, isn't the biggest, has no particular claim to historic or architectural uniqueness, and in every discernible way is just another shopping mall. Guy (Help!) 13:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Did the "Perimeter" neighborhood name in Atlanta come from this mall or the other way around? Smashville 13:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perimeter Mall was the seed from which the Perimeter Center edge city grew; it was in the middle of completely undeveloped agricultural land (i.e cow pastures) when it was built. AUTiger » talk 23:32, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, now that I've read about it...it looks like I-285 is the reason for all that development. Smashville 23:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I-285 is a 64 mile loop; why did Perimeter Center happen along that one-ish mile stretch and not the other 63? AUTiger » talk 23:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Have you driven it? The entire thing is developed. Smashville 00:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course I have, I live in Atlanta; have you? And no the entire Perimeter is not developed on the scale and intensity that Perimeter Center is. AUTiger » talk 01:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak Keep so many of these have pages here that it's hard to fight for WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS at some point. JJL 14:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Exactly, if WP:OTHERMALLSEXISTS becomes a policy for keeping malls, then it opens the door for wp:otherstuffexists becoming a policy for keeping any article.--victor falk 14:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete No claim to notability whatsoever, speedable per A7.--victor falk 14:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep This mall was the first super-regional shopping mall in Metro Atlanta. When it was opened it was in the middle of nowhere. Today its in one of the richest areas of the metro area. If you delete this one, then most of the articles in Wikipedia need to be deleted because they are not notable or important. In fact, why dont you just shut the whole thing down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Etittle1978 (talk • contribs) 16:21, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • First of all, please be civil. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid argument in this case. Secondly, where in the article does it state that? According to the article, it was the 4th mall in Dekalb County and a similar mall already existed in Atlanta when it was built. It says this in the article. Smashville 16:25, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep While the article does a poor job of stating it, this mall was one of the top three malls in the Atlanta area during the 1970's and 1980's, and was substantially larger than its predecessors in DeKalb County. It became the node around which office development took place, and is the specific reason the MARTA station was constructed in that location. It has since been outclassed by newer development. Establishing documented notability from that time would require newspaper clippings, since my assertion here isn't citable. If we are viewing a snapshot of its significance as a mall in late 2007, and ignoring the urban context it produced, I wouldn't call it notable. However, since notability isn't temporary, I believe the argument that it should go because it has none now is invalid. I'll see what I can do about references. Acroterion _(talk) 16:53, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. I don't live in that city, but even I've heard of this -- it's really big. Searching Google's News Archive produces 4000+ hits. Yes, many are passing mentions, but there's still plenty of meat; here's a small sample:
  • Smothers, Ronald (1990-04-25). "Man Shoots 5, Killing One, In a Georgia Shopping Mall". The New York Times. Retrieved 2007-10-31.
  • Badie, Rickie (1985-06-24). "Water main breaks, soaks Perimeter Mall". The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Retrieved 2007-10-31.
  • "On the move: As competition in the area heats up, Perimeter Mall announces a renovation geared toward attracting nightlife". The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. 1996-09-06. Retrieved 2007-10-31.
  • Badie, Rickie (1985-06-24). "Water main breaks, soaks Perimeter Mall". The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Retrieved 2007-10-31.
  • "Mall shooter was seeking `to get even': Police say man he killed, four others were victims of his imagined troubles". The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Retrieved 2007-10-31.

--A. B. ^(talk) 19:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here's one where the Wall Street Journal refers to this mall in passing as one of the top high end malls in the U.S.:

• Starkman, Dean (2002-01-14). "Rodamco Will Sell Itself to Rivals, Splitting Up Its U.S. Mall Portfolio". The Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 2007-10-31.

--A. B. ^(talk) 19:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Those sources establish absolutely nothing beyond its existence... "refer in passing" is exactly what sources should not do. --victor falk 20:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Victor, did you examine any of these pages I cited or any of the Google News Archive search results I linked to? Reading the requirements of Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, the sample sources I cited all meet the 5 requirements: "Independent of the subject", "Presumed", "Reliable", "Significant coverage", "Sources" (except for the last source, which is not significant coverage). What additional criteria do you expect this article to meet? --A. B. ^(talk) 20:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Did I check them? I've done better than that. I've integrated one of them into the article [1]. Now, how encyclopedic does that look like?--victor falk 20:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How encyclopedic?? Very. Thanks! --A. B. ^(talk) 20:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You... You're pulling my leg, aren't you? You can't seriously claim that 6 inches of water in 1984 is notable?--victor falk 21:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anytime a busted pipe causes $100,000s of damage and shuts down a mall that grosses $1+ million in sales every day, I guess someone's going to notice. And the shooting of 5 people that dominated the news across North America and caused changes in mall security industrywide -- your thoughts on that? --A. B. ^(talk) 21:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nice edit; WP:POINT much? AUTiger » talk 23:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Malls-related deletions. —A. B. ^(talk) 20:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Georgia (U.S. state)-related deletions. —A. B. ^(talk) 20:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete a busted water main 22 years ago and a shooting 17 years ago do not make this notable. Dekalb County had 43 murders in 1990. Most murders do get reported in the news. Would the locations of all of these murders therefore be notable? Smashville 21:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Sporadic media mentions does not mean notability. Lacks significant coverage in reliable secondary sources. See WP:N.Subdolous 22:01, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Note: new user -- account opened 14:07, 30 October 2007. Edits to date: recommending "delete" in 40 different AfDs over 164 minutes of editing). Comment by A. B.

This mall has had dozens of dedicated articles written about it in the Atlanta Journal Constitution. I consider that large newspaper to be a reliable source.^{1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11} It and the associated Perimeter Center development were one of the examples used by Joel Garreau in his groundbreaking 1991 book about "edge cities". --A. B. ^(talk) 22:40, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's because it is in Atlanta. It's a place to shop in Atlanta. Every mall is going to have articles in the local paper. Smashville 22:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, well what about the Washington Post: "Soul of a New Atlanta"? --A. B. ^(talk) 02:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention that virtually every mall has added development near it. Some malls (like Cool Springs Galleria) essentially transform the entire city they are in - those are notable malls. Perimeter Mall is just another mall. They have a nice freestanding California Pizza Kitchen and a weird Best Buy, but it's just another mall. Smashville 22:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing out the Cool Springs article; there's absolutely nothing in the article about any transformation nor anything else asserting notability. I'm assume you or someone else here will be nominating it on AfD shortly? There are probably 100 more to be nominated from this [2]. (PS. not simply WP:OTHERSTUFF, other stuff x100) AUTiger » talk 23:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The article does not properly cover the subject's history and notability, but the mall was the birth of a very significant edge city for Atlanta. "The Perimeter business district is the region's largest employer district and one of the largest Class A corporate office markets in the southeast."[3] AUTiger » talk 23:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Notable, can't see any reason why we need to get rid of it. THE KING 23:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep the mall's size and scope -- Gross leasable area of 1.6 million square feet -- places the mall well above and beyond the International Council of Shopping Centers classification as a super-regional mall. The sources provided establish that the mall satisfies the Wikipedia:Notability standard. Alansohn 00:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - super-regionals are notable simply for that fact. Exit2DOS2000^•T•C• 07:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. If you wanted to delete a mall, it's hardly worth it to start with a mall this upscale, this important...Ryoung122 13:02, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak Keep. I'm changing my vote after sleeping on it to a weak keep...I have family in Atlanta, but others far more knowledgeable on the subject seem to think it's notable...perhaps it's just my inability to distinguish a notable mall from a non-notable mall. They're all malls to me... Smashville 13:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.