The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Eastern Orthodoxy in Croatia. Any worthwhile content can be merged from history if consensus of editors supports that. Sandstein 15:43, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Orthodox Croats (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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POV fork riddled with OR and speculation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slatersteven (talk • contribs) 19:36, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep (article author). According to the latest census, there are about 16,000 Orthodox Croats living in Croatia. The article speaks abaut Orthodox Croats and their history in Croatia. All the historical facts that exist in the article have a source in some book and census. That's why article is written. I suggest you don't delete it, thank you. Mikola22 (talk) 21:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Forf which we already have an article Eastern Orthodoxy in Croatia.Slatersteven (talk) 22:54, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• This is about the history of the Orthodox Croats and the information that exists, there are also Orthodox persons who have been considered Croats throughout history so this can also be put into the article. It does not fall under the theme Orthodoxy in Croatia because everyone is mentioned here. Otherwise, in an article about Orthodox Croats exist specific information about self-declar of Orthodox Croats when they entering to the USA(19th and 20th century), it is from the book of historian.^[1] This article about Orthodox Croats and it would mean a lot to them since during the communist era were not written about them. Mikola22 (talk) 05:42, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• We do not need two articles on essentially similar subjects, thus any useful material here (rather then speculation and OR) can be moved to the other article.Slatersteven (talk) 09:45, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Croatia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 08:42, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• It should be a standalone article because in this article peoples can find out more about Orthodox Croats, which is and intention of this article. Many Orthodox Croats do not know history of their ancestors and there is this article. Everyone can get involved and start putting new information because in communism this was not allowed and therefore we have less historical data. So we have in this artical some historical material which and other historians can start using. Putting this historical data and claims from various history books into other Wikipedia articles makes no sense except to separate it all and later nobody will know what these data telling. Perhaps it is your intention not to talk about it? There is no reason not to talk about it, these people(Orthodox Croats) live in Croatia today. It is a Croatian minority that must be protected and not assimilated into other communities. And that's why this article is on Wikipedia. I don't think anyone minds this and that everyone will accept it. Mikola22 (talk) 11:37, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• They can find that out inn the other article as well, its hardly huge and needs expansion.Slatersteven (talk) 11:41, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Find all information from this article on Wikipedia that all interested see in which Wikipedia articles such data exist. Put links to those articles. Mikola22 (talk) 11:52, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I have no idea what you are saying.Slatersteven (talk) 11:57, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• They can find that out inn the other article as well, In which Wikipedia articles can I find information about Orthodox Croats? Put links to these articles. Mikola22 (talk) 12:17, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• We do not need two articles that contain the same information.Slatersteven (talk) 12:18, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Therefore, if you claim something then prove it. If you can't prove that They can find that out inn the other article as well, then this is exactly reason that this article must exists. What you are doing is not in good faith, and this can be seen from this example. First you have to think of 17,000 peoples in Croatia who would like that peoples in the world know about their existence and history. It is a minority that should be respected and protected. You should be the first to support it. Mikola22 (talk) 12:57, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "Its not in another article" is not a reason to keep, it a reason to merge (at best). We have separate article when the parent article becomes to large, not because its not there.Slatersteven (talk) 13:51, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. There is a history of Ortodox Croats, and a 16 thousand people in Croatia which calls themseves that... --Čeha (razgovor) 13:12, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete, already covered at Eastern Orthodoxy in Croatia. What novel content there is appears to come from synthesis of outdated sources. - MrOllie (talk) 14:14, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete there is already an article titled Eastern Orthodoxy in Croatia. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 16:51, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 23:44, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete (or rather) Redirect to Eastern Orthodoxy in Croatia-- This is a horrid article, stringing together a series of biased quotes, without much serious analysis or NPOV treatment of the subject. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:49, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and do a WP:TNT rewrite, or redirect, much of the article is WP:SYN and WP:OR and missing context but the topic is definitely notable. Some people in Croatia are indeed both Orthodox Christians and identify as Croats. E.g. [1] - quotes the census (verified: [2]) that out of 190,000 Orthodox in Croatia, 16,000 identify as Croats (the others are mostly Orthodox Serbs). This group is unfortunately not mentioned at Eastern Orthodoxy in Croatia. See [3] for treatments in RS. This is of course a touchy subject since Serb ultranationalists deny their existence while Croat ultranationalists try to inflate their number or claim all other Orthodox ethnicities in Croatia as Croats (see Serbianisation and Croatisation). I'm not quite sure if there's enough about this for a standalone article (not much in the news and I'm not familiar with the topic enough to know in which books to look), but one could at least document the social commentary on the topic. Daß Wölf 23:30, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, on balance. There is something here, but this is not it. Guy (help!) 01:15, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• merge and redirect to Eastern Orthodoxy in Croatia per User:Daß Wölf.desmay (talk) 15:19, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Selective mergeand redirect to Eastern Orthodoxy in Croatia. Any merger should examine the source material carefully to avoid original synthesis or research. As others have stated, it's possible that this might be viable article, and no prejudice against article recreation if better sourcing and policies regarding OR and NPOV are followed closely.4meter4 (talk) 19:57, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge - I am an Orthodox Christian myself and can see blatantly POV materials, but it can be better rewritten as part of a Orthodox Christianity in Croatia article MenfesKidus40 (talk) 02:00, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I can only say that this is mostly history data and in the time of communism it was forbidden writte about that. For that reason we have less information in the books. Regarding "Croatian ultranationalists" it has nothing to do with them because it is original data in the Croatian archives. If someone wants to explore its origin they can do so by going to the archives of each city in Croatia. In most of these archives they will find original data for his family in some village, area etc. Unfortunately this information mostly speaks about Vlachs. Some archive because of that is not "ultranationalistic" but he presents data that exist. Many peasants flee to the Vlachs area and converted to Orthodoxy but they are Croats so we do not know why someone called himself as Orthodox Croatian, are they descendants of Croats or Vlachs we don't know that. This (origin) can be written in a separate section in the article. Finally, entering America many orthodox people declared themselves as Croats and this should be respected. This article is for all of them. Mikola22 (talk) 11:04, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect (or merge if there is anything worth merging) - This is a better solution than plain delete, as the present name is a credible search term. This meets the objection of someone (above) who wanted to keep. If there are deficiencies in the target, they can be cured by editing, but they are much fewer than for the present article, which lacks NPOV. Clearly there are strong nationalist views at stake here, on which I want to express no viewPeterkingiron (talk) 14:15, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Selective merge (if there is anything worth merging) and redirect.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 09:15, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.