The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 08:08, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

• ... that Arno Lücker, who lost his job as dramaturge at the Konzerthaus Berlin due to a controversy over a shred video, developed a website to find women composers? Source: several
  • Reviewed: AFN Frankfurt

Moved to mainspace by LouisAlain (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 14:38, 20 May 2022 (UTC).

• The hook may be falling afoul of BLP since it mentions a controversy (and it doesn't really paint a good picture of him in the article). I think the focus should be on him developing a website about finding women composers, since that is unusual, interesting to a broad audience, and doesn't violate BLP. I would suggest proposing an alternate hook that doesn't mention the controversy and instead only mentions the website development. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:56, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

  I wonder how far you read. I think that 99% of readers will agree that he was funny and the concert house made a mistake, not understanding a joke, and he and the viollinist made peace. Anybody could create a website in home office, it's cute but nothing stand-alone, but the New York Times wrote about the incidence, - he's known for that. If you can word better what I said in clarification, be my guest. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:38, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

  • ... that composer and music critic Arno Lücker developed a website to find women composers?

  This wording was what I had in mind. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:39, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, and I replied: almost anybody could do that from home office (and he even said he started with a Wikipedia list). Becoming dramaturge of the Konzerthuas Berlin is what he achieved. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:08, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't think composers are the people who come to mind when making databases. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:03, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

He is (or was in his youth) a bit of a composer, and is a slighter bit of website creator (during the pandemic) but a thought-provoking music journalist shaping programs, which doesn't come across at all in ALT1. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:52, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

• Article meets DYK requirements for newness and length and no close paraphrasing was found. QPQ has been done. Hook is cited inline and verified, but as I said, it could probably be shorter. Arguably the content is not an issue since the incident wasn't his fault and it ultimately had a happy ending, but people reading the hook without reading the article could get the wrong impression, and I'd say it's better to be safe than sorry here. In addition, I don't think that mention of the incident is important to the core hook fact of him creating a database, it just distracts from the main point. One possible solution, if you want to mention the incident, could be to replace the mention of the database with the reconciliation, instead of trying to include two totally unrelated hook facts in the same hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:03, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

  I'd mention the reconciliation with the violinist if Hope's article was better. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:52, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

  ALT2: ... that Arno Lücker ran a concert series at the Konzerthaus Berlin called 2 x hören, with the same music performed twice, first unprepared, then after conversations with the performers? [1] --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:25, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I think the hook has promise (the hook fact is interesting) but it could be reworded somewhat to make it easier to understand. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:04, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I replaced the German "mal" by the "x" of the German title, would that help already. Could you perhaps rephrase it, because I'm at a loss what exactly you think would be difficult to understand? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:33, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't seem very concise or direct to the point (i.e. the performance being performed "unprepared" then with conversations). Perhaps Theleekycauldron can word the hook more clearly than I can suggest? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:38, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I can see that whenI tried to be concise, saying "unprepared" instead of "without preparing the listener by an introduction or written program notes" I made it misleading, but sorry, I don't know a short good way to say that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:22, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

no help? try again:

ALT2a: ... that Arno Lücker ran a chamber music series at the Konzerthaus Berlin called 2 x hören, presenting the same music twice, in the beginning and at the end, with interviews of the performers in between? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:26, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

It's a bit on the long side but if the concert house and the title are removed (they aren't necessary to the main hook fact, methinks), ALT2a may have promise. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:30, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

It is a difference if someone does such a thing in his own living room, or one of the leading halls in the world. The title is short and almost internationally understood. I'd rather drop the explanation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:21, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't think the title is "internationally understood" considering it's in German and not English; indeed, I had to use a translator to find out that it means "Listen Twice", which to be fair is an interesting title. If the English translation is used in lieu of the German title, it may add to the hook rather than detract from it. As for the point about the "leading halls", that's not really going to appeal to people not in the know (i.e. non-classical music fans). The average reader won't get that it's supposed to be a big deal and thus would likely think "so what?". It would be like if we had a hook that said "... that John Lennon performed a concert at the Madison Square Garden?" A person who isn't a sports fan or a music fan may not know why performing at the MSG is a big deal and thus the hook has no meaning to them. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:42, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

ALT2b: ... that Arno Lücker ran a chamber music series at the Konzerthaus Berlin called 2 x hören, meaning listen twice? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:25, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

• Let me offer a compromise. I'm suggesting this shortened version of ALT2a below. Perhaps we can then let the promoter decide between this or ALT2b?

ALT2c ... that Arno Lücker ran a chamber music series that presenting the same music twice, in the beginning and at the end, with interviews of the performers in between?

I'm not really a fan of ALT2b because I think the "having interviews of the performers" during the performance part is much more interesting than either the title or the mention of the venue, but if you agree to this compromise I will let the promoter decide. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:09, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm no friend of leaving out his long-time connection to the Konzerthaus Berlin, which establishes importance and some location.

ALT2d: ... that Arno Lücker ran a series at the Konzerthaus Berlin called 2 x hören, with talk to the performers between two performances of the same chamber music? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:58, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I think ALT2d may have some promise, but the title, being in German, probably needs to go (it doesn't add to the hook fact). As a compromise we can probably keep the concert house's name. Still, I think ALT2d may need copyediting since the main hook fact isn't too obvious with the current wording (there being a talk between the two performances). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:04, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm really unsure about the best way to express the hook idea there so I'll ask Epicgenius to propose alternate wordings. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:13, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

I was thinking something like this:

• ALT2e: ... that Arno Lücker ran a series at the Konzerthaus Berlin, 2 x hören, in which the performers were interviewed between two renditions of the same chamber music?
• ALT2f: ... that Arno Lücker ran a series at the Konzerthaus Berlin, in which the performers were interviewed between two renditions of the same chamber music? Epicgenius (talk) 13:47, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

I think we can go with ALT2f for reason I elaborated on above. AGF on German sources. The only thing that needs to be done is for the footnote to be duplicated after "and finally presenting the music a second time". Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:33, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• @Gerda Arendt: The nomination cannot proceed without the footnote issue being addressed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:40, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

  ... and you think I don'z know that? - Of the estimated 50 things I did not get to in the last three days, this seemed about the least important. But I'll do it right now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:25, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

  I duplicated the ref a few timse. I believe that ALT2e is better, showing the way he made a title, and many readers will know enough at that point, just by the title, without a lengthy explanation, so I urge a prep builder to look into that. Epicgenius, thank you for the choices! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:38, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

• Thank you. The hook is approved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:02, 12 June 2022 (UTC)