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Talk:Wuthering Heights

Reverting discussion of Heathcliff as dark in appearance

Rwood128, This recent revert here might be reverted again, as the source discussing Heathcliff's appearance is not a reliable author, in The Guardian. That was the strongest point in the Edit summary by editor who cut that text out. That article in The Guardian is about a non-white actor chosen to play Heathcliff in a 2011 movie, and not an analysis of the novel. Heathcliff's appearance was described as dark, and I am pretty sure that meant he was not blond and blue-eyed. There is a Wikipedia article on the phrase Tall, dark and handsome. The article is not much in itself, but the first link under further reading here is more informative on how the term dark is used in English writings. I think that the quotes from the text on how the household insulted Heathcliff for his appearance as well as everything else about him after the father of the household died are not so revealing about Heathcliff's actual background or say much about his appearance except for dark hair, dark eyebrows, dark eyes, and are not the most interesting things to say about Heathcliff, the passionate man. The household, save for Cathy, had lots of insults for Heathcliff; the ones based on his appearance seem no more important than the other insults. Little Lascar meant they thought of him as an Indian servant, which is where the term Lascar derives, from Britain's uses of people in India when the book was written. The description of Heathcliff in the character section has unsourced remarks about the inspiration for the character being Byronic, being inspired by the brother of the Brontë sisters, viewing him as a frightening brother on account of his addictions. Anyway, if there will be analysis of his appearance in the Character section, is there a more reliable source than a commentary on which actor plays him in a movie? Could his athletic appearance be considered, when he returned to the area? Is his appearance the most important topic to cover? Here is a source (not sure how reliable) that quotes from the text on Heathcliff's appearance at different ages here. This article by Charlotte Becker in the St. Lawrence Review in 2004 might be a more reliable source, or this article in Barleby, an essay that wants one to log in to read it all. I think that is what Ya hemos pasao means in that Edit summary, and apparently, from that editor's talk page, Ya hemos pasao promises to find a better way to revise that description. --Prairieplant (talk) 02:24, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like you've pre-empted me! I have been meaning to get to this article; unfortunately I am fairly short on time at the moment because of irl deadlines, so Wiki editing tends to slip down the list. Bartleby is a homework helper/essay mill type of thing which one would avoid if you can possibly help it, I think. Again, when I get time I'll do a Scholar search and see what comes up (I don't know if either of you have institutional access to research databases or anything). You're correct that 'dark' in Western European languages pretty much up till the 20th century when multiracialism etc. became a thing, signified dark hair/eyes rather than sub-saharan African or other non-White race (and still does in Eastern European languages like Russian or Slovenian, for instance). Europeans have since the time of Plato had extremely unambiguous words specifically for Africans and they used them. That said, as other articles I've come across have argued, there were Africans in England at the time Brontë was writing, especially Liverpool, which had been a slaving port (and of course Liverpool is where Heathcliffe was found). The interpretation that Heathcliffe was to be read as non-white and/or English, even black, is certainly arguable, but by no means definitive, which is what the summary, based on that, as you say, less than ideal source, seemed to be stating, which irked me. I agree that Heathcliffe's race probably doesn't need to be a major thing in the character summary, especially as it isn't one (explicitly, at least) in the text. I'm sorry if I was abrupt/combative before, by the way. Ya hemos pasao (talk) 04:14, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've had a go at adding a bit more nuance to the race section. Indeed, a quick search on my uni database threw up more articles in the Daily Mail than proper scholarly work. It's my view that it was left deliberately ambiguous by Brontë, and that the "outrage" was mainly tabloid noise in response to some productions that cast Heathcliff as black, which is not unusual: popular examples that spring to mind are Hermione in the stage productions of Harry Potter, or the suggestion for Idris Elba to play Bond. mac77 (talk) 13:47, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

These words, "dark-skinned gypsy" and "a little Lascar", are hard to ignore, especially considering the association of the Devil with blackness. It's intriguing to consider the possible influence of Othello on Brontë. And, is there some connection with the gothic novel? See, for example: Brantlinger, P. (2016). "Race and Frankenstein". In A. Smith (Ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Frankenstein (Cambridge Companions to Literature, pp. 128-142). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. doi:10.1017/CBO9781316091203.011 Rwood128 (talk) 16:50, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Characters section

Quite a lot of the Characters section comprises critical discussion of the characters, external influences etc. That all needs to be moved over to the Themes section which has a tag indicating that expansion is needed. MichaelMaggs (talk) 14:24, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Adopted orphan

The article is apparently reluctant to abandon ideas of Heathcliff as an adopted orphan. My memory tells me that Heathcliff was a brown boy who spoke no English and was brought to the house. The condition of his parents was not mentioned. Nor I think was any formal adoption. He was favoured and when he was not favoured he was employed. I may be very wrong, but either way I would like to encourage the presence of sources for orphan and adoption. Untitled50reg (talk) 17:54, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Chapter IV (you can read the Project Gutenberg edition online) has a description of how Heathcliff was found: The master tried to explain the matter; but he was really half dead with fatigue, and all that I could make out, amongst her scolding, was a tale of his seeing it [Heathcliff] starving, and houseless, and as good as dumb, in the streets of Liverpool, where he picked it up and inquired for its owner. Not a soul knew to whom it belonged, he said. A bit further on Heathcliff is referred to as fatherless. I think that's enough to consider him an orphan. I don't remember Heathcliff's circumstances in the Earnshaw family well enough to say if "adopted" is the best description, although it seemed from Chapter IV that Mr. Earnshaw treated him like a son. Perhaps someone with a fresher memory can chime in. Rublov (talk) 18:58, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The article on Heathcliff uses the word foundling. Rwood128 (talk) 19:03, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Rublov: Providing a child with food and shelter is just that, not adoption. People do the same with dogs. Even "adopting" a dog is not really adopting. Dogs are property. Untitled50reg (talk) 21:38, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this Guardian article that the article cites describes one of the Earnshaws as Heathcliff's adopted brother, and this Washington Examiner article specifically calls him an adopted foundling (to pick two sources from the article's references at random). Since Wikipedia is based on reliable sources and not original research, that should settle it. I have no objection to using foundling instead of orphan. Rublov (talk) 22:51, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Rublov: Well, that Guardian article says: "In contrast to the original story, however, race plays a pivotal role: Heathcliff is racially abused by his adopted brother and referred to as a "nigger" on several occasions". This is the adaptation which the article is interested in, not Brontë's book. And for your second article, that says: "Our first encounter with Heathcliff shows him to be a nasty bully. But our first encounter with Heathcliff shows him to be "A capital fellow!" (Chap. 1). So since the first is talking about something else, and the second is demonstrably unreliable, I am not settled. Untitled50reg (talk) 00:00, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is the Kate Bush song the most significant derivative work?

The third paragraph currently ends with "It has inspired an array of adaptations across several media, including English singer-songwriter Kate Bush's song of the same name."

Do we really all concur that the Kate Bush song deserves this position? Nothing against Kate Bush songs, but this seems to be out of balance. Sterlingjones (talk) 23:23, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A section should be created which lists all the TV shows, movies, etc in which characters are seen reading this book. Or this book is seen in a scene in some way or the other eg stacked on a book shelf. I have noticed it sometimes in various films and TV shows. I should have noted down the names of those films, shows. etc. Please create and add if you have seen similar instances of this book's appearance. Thank you. Ravi arnie (talk) 20:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See List of Wuthering Heights references. But please don't include passing references or trivia: MOS:CULTURALREFS and MOS:TRIVIA. MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Quelle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wuthering_Heights