Eisspeedway

Talk:Elijah Abel

Temple Work

I assume his temple work has been completed. This should be included in the article. Bytebear 19:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Citations

This article needs citations. Bytebear 19:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ancestry

The article says he was one-eighth black but he doesn't look it. Is that correct? It definitely needs a citation. mdclxvi (talk) 00:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it need a citation. But note that it's only a drawing. SpencerT♦C 00:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is a drawing which appears to be made for propoganda purposes. This is obviously not the drawing of a man who is 1/8 black. Mormons trumpet the fact that Josepsh Smith was not a racist by pointing to the ordination of Abel to the priesthood. But there is no evidence Smith even knew he was black. This drawing seems to be (an extremely nefarious) attempt to sidestep that issue using a bogus drawing of a black man to win that particular disputed fact.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.227.207.152 (talk • contribs) 17:39, 21 October 2008

Accuracy of drawing

There's a claim on Image:Elijah Abel drawing.png that this is not actually a drawing of Elijah Abel. If this is correct, the captions here and on other pages that use this image need to be corrected. -- Beland (talk) 12:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Elijah Abel drawing.png. It's definitely a copy of Durieux's sketch "He Believes Everything" as found in "Gumbo Ya-Ya". --dave pape (talk) 20:13, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's no more egregious than hundreds of drawings that are passed off as representations of Joseph Smith, or of Jesus, for that matter. 97.117.193.163 (talk) 21:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Priesthood Revoked?

"Brother Coltrin further said Brother Abel was ordained a Seventy ... and when the Prophet Joseph learned of his lineage he was dropped from the Quorum, and another was put in his place." (Meeting, 31 May 1879, as related by Willian E. Berrett, Mormonism and the Negro.)

"The Prophet Joseph Smith was commanded by God to withdraw the Priesthood from Elijah Abel, and revoke the ordination. ... Although there is no official Church record as to the revocation, Elijah Abel affirmed the fact to my father, Thomas A. Shreeve, when both were living in the Salt Lake 10th Ward, during 1872-77. At the time, Brother Abel told young Thomas, who baptised Abel's grandchildren that the Prophet Joseph “came to him with tears in his eyes one day, and told him that he had been commanded by the Lord to withdraw the holy Priesthood from him.” (Caleb A. Shreeve, Sr, Salt Lake Tribune, "Forum", 26 October 1970.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobeyjaggle (talk • contribs) 20:30, 26 April 2010

I don't know of any historian who accepts these claims. The idea that Abel was dropped from the Quorum of Seventy originated with Zebedee Coltrin, a racist. In 1901, Joseph F. Smith contradicted Coltrin's statements, and said that he had seen Abel's priesthood certificate renewed in 1841, and then again in Salt Lake City. For a discussion of this, see Donna Hill, Joseph Smith: the First Mormon p. 392. Richard Bushman, one of the premier authorities on Joseph Smith, said in his Smith biography that Smith never did anything to deny black members the priesthood during his lifetime. As to the 1970 statement of Caleb Shreeve, the reliability of that is pretty low. It's third-hand, its only source is in a letter to the editor of a newspaper, it was first recorded almost a century after the alleged statement by Abel, it is contradicted by Joseph F. Smith, and it is not backed up by any documentation. Plus, it was written at a time when the church was under harsh criticism for its racial discrimination, and it would not be surprising for false anecdotes like this to pop up attempting to legitimize the doomed church policy. I don't know of any historian that has taken it seriously. COGDEN 21:49, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Even if we hold Coltrin accountable to 21st century standards of racial sensitivity it doesn't discount the fact that Coltrin was there, and Joseph F. Smith wasn't. Joseph Smith Jr.'s statements regarding those with black skin being cursed by the Priesthood (Times and Seasons 6:857), that Cain was cursed in the same way (History of the Church 2:213), that blacks are descendants of Cain (History 1:75), that Ham's descendants were cursed by the Priesthood (History 4:445), and that only God could take away this curse from the seed of Canaan in like to manner to which is was given (Messenger and Advocate 2:290), all lend credence to the idea that he opposed blacks having the Priesthood, at least at some point.
Abraham Smoot like Coltrin testified that Joseph told him as early as 1838 not to ordain blacks (Journal of L. John Nuttall 1:290-93), and George Q. Cannon told him that John Taylor had been told the same thing by Joseph Smith (Council Minutes, 22 August 1900). Even Joseph F. Smith stated, "the Negro race is barred from holding the Priesthood, and this has always been the case. the Prophet Joseph Smith taught this doctrine." (Improvement Era 27:564). We should also not forget the wording of Abraham 1 regarding Pharaoh being denied the Priesthood for being a descendent of Ham. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobeyjaggle (talk • contribs) 01:19, 27 April 2010
That's not the conclusion of any modern professional historians that I know about. Undoubtedly, many 19th century Mormons thought that Smith instituted the policy of racial discrimination, but modern historians think he never actually did. Abraham Smoot's statement only indicated that in 1836 Smith did not favor ordaining black slaves to the priesthood. Obviously, given that he allowed Abel, a black free man to be ordained that same year (both as an elder in March and as a Seventy in December, after the alleged statement that Smoot heard, and then again as a Seventy in 1841), Smith's prohibition did not apply to free black men. Plus, Smith's statement in 1836, assuming it is accurate, came at the precise moment when Smith was most pro-slavery (1835-36). By the 1840s, he had become a strident abolitionist, so there's no telling where he ended up on the issue of ordaining slaves.
As to a statement by John Taylor, I think that what you are referring to is simply Taylor relating what Coltrin told him. I don't think Taylor had any independent memories. Coltrin's statement is not given much credence considering his bitter racism, and the fact that his statements are contradicted by the fact that Abel was ordained multiple times, and endowed, after Smith supposedly made those statements. Abel himself maintained that Smith said he was entitled to the priesthood, and he was given a priesthood certificate in Salt Lake City, and he went on a mission as late as the 1880s.
As to the statements found in scripture dictated by Smith, the part in Moses saying that the descendents of Cain were black said nothing about priesthood, and the part that said Pharaoh was denied the priesthood didn't claim that the Pharaoh was black. Moreover, we're talking about the Patriarchal Priesthood here. Only Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the other patriarchs like Noah and Shem held that priesthood. It was a patriarchal line, and Shem got it rather than Ham, and Shem passed it down, eventually, to the patriarch Abraham. There's no necessary reason to link this with racism, and there's no necessary reason to assume that just because someone can't have the Patriarchal priesthood, they can't also have the Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthoods. In Smith's time, most whites were denied the Patriarchal priesthood too: only Joseph Smith, Sr., Hyrum, and Hyrum's patrilineal descendants had that right because of their lineage. That Brigham Young and others made the leap from Abraham to a policy of racial discrimination doesn't mean that Smith made that leap himself, and modern scholars don't think there's sufficient evidence to say that he did. COGDEN 10:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Priesthood reference removed?

"receive the priesthood.[1]"

  1. ^ Page 46 of The Mormon People: The Making of an American Faith Bowman, Matthew (2012). Random House. ISBN 978-0-679-64491-0

See Google Books [1]

This reference also states Abel was not allowed in Temple do to his skin color. That would be notable for the article. 108.195.136.157 (talk) 07:49, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here maybe a place to start; Why did the "Mormon" church not allow black people to be priests? from 3 months ago on Yahoo! Answers 99.181.132.254 (talk) 05:04, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Burial

I tried to create a find-a-grave memorial for Elijah Abel, but I was unable to confirm that he is buried in the Salt Lake City Cemetery - or at any other cemetery in Utah, for that matter. He is not listed in the Utah Division of State History Cemeteries and Burials data base, and the sextant's office at the Salt Lake Cemetery has no record of his burial. The flora around the gravestone shown in the photograph appended to this article may be consistent with that seen at the Salt Lake City Cemetery, but not enough of the surrounding topography is visible to verify the location. I will leave the find-a-grave memorial in place until independent verification of Elijah's burial site is obtained. I can be contacted at wms1110@earthlink.net.

There already is a find a grave page for him. See: Elijah Abel at Find a Grave. And the Utah Division of State History has him buried in the Salt lake cemetery. See: "Cemeteries and Burials Database: Burial Information: ABLE, ELIJAH". Salt Lake City, Utah: Utah Division of State History. Retrieved 04/08/2014. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 17:38, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Recent scholarship

In both 2013 and 2014 biographies of Elijah Abel were published. I have mentioned them in the article, but it would probably be an even bigger improvement to incorporate their finds in the article. This way we can have inclusion of the most recent understandings of Able in the article.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:19, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Elijah Abel/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: 10W40 (talk · contribs) 16:35, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    Passes in terms of grammar and writing quality.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
    I cranked up the copyvio engine. There is nothing even close to this article anywhere else.
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    I noticed that few tidbits of information were missing. Adel is often described as an octoroon (one eighth black), although it does not appear that anyone has worked out his exact blood quantum. There were two other 19th century black Mormon priests: Black Pete and Lewis Walker.
The most serious problem with the article is that it doesn't explain the controversies that are the context of most RS coverage of the subject. There were Mormon meetings concerning Abel in 1843 and in 1879. Both were turning points in terms of Mormon racial policy. At best, the article deals with these meetings indirectly. Here is Bringhurst on the 1843 meeting:
This decision represents an important turning point not only for Elijah Abel but for all Mormon blacks. For the first time race was used as a criterion for limiting the activities of a black Latter-day Saint. Until 1843, Abel had suffered no known racial discrimination despite his status as one of Mormonism’s few black members. (There is a link to Bringhurst in the "Comments" section below.)
According to Bringhurst, when the Mormons moved West they began to encounter more Blacks. Policy was revised as fear of miscegenation grew.
As for the 1879 meeting, Oxford calls it "one of the most important about the priesthood restriction in Church history." This meeting discussed Adel's priesthood and concluded that it was valid and had never been revoked.
  1. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    There is a section on "Persecution", but no explanation of why anyone would want to expel Abel from the Church. Perhaps the reader is supposed to think of him as a civil rights martyr. Adel's priesthood is a disputed point of Mormon theology, as I explain in the "Comments" section below.
  2. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  3. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  4. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Comments

I read three accounts of Abel's life, Jackson's Elijah Abel (2013), The Oxford Handbook of Mormonism (pp. 269-270), and Bringhurst's "Elijah Abel and the Changing Status of Blacks Within Mormonism" to prepare for this review.

Anyone who wants to edit this article should read Bringhurst's essay first. It sums up Abel's significance in Mormon history in a way that's brief and to the point -- something this article fails to do. Prior to the divine revelation of 1978, it was generally understood that Blacks were banned from the Mormon priesthood. So how was it possible for Abel to became a priest? The "no Black priests" policy was obviously instituted sometime after Abel was ordained in 1836. There is a great deal of controversy concerning who instituted it and why. None of this is explained or even acknowledged in the article, which focuses on biographical detail.

Elijah Abel...was one of the earliest African-American members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He was the first African-American elder and seventy in the Latter Day Saint movement.
  • Second "Latter Day Saint movement" is repetitious. I suggest "church."
  • I know there is a link, but you should explain what a is "seventy" anyway. The word should be capitalized as "Seventy."
  • The following sentence uses "Latter-day Saint." Do we prefer hyphen or no hyphen?
  • Most people call this group the "Mormon Church." Shouldn't that be mentioned?
Abel was born in Maryland on July 25 to Delilah and Andrew Abel.
  • Jackson gives the maiden name of Abel's mother as "Delilah Williams," so that can be added.
It is unclear what year he was born- some sources put the year at 1808, others at 1810.
  • I suggest replacing the hyphen with a period.
He was baptized into the Church of Christ in September 1832 by Ezekiel Roberts.
  • Not many readers will know that the Church changed its name from "Church of Christ" to "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." It isn't explained in the article. It shouldn't be since this detail would be distracting. You can avoid this problem by calling it "the church."
Some sources state that Abel was ordained by Joseph Smith, while other records indicate that he was ordained to the priesthood by Zebedee Coltrin.
  • This seems a rather abrupt way to deal with the controversy, which Jackson spends several pages on. This was the issue the church leaders hashed out at the 1879 meeting. Coltrin is often quoted as saying that he, “never had such unpleasant feelings in my life" as when he ordained Abel. "I said I never would again Annoint another person who had Negro blood in him. [sic] unless I was commanded by the Prophet to do so.” That's a quote that belongs in the article.
Also at that time, Abel was accused by non-Mormons of murdering a mother and five children.
  • This is left hanging. Perhaps there should be some follow up. Jackson says the handbill accusing Abel of murder went up in St. Lawrence after he left the county, so he never faced his accusers.
Abel was never convicted of this crime, but his missionary travels were often punctuated with similar troubles and persecutions.
  • I assume this was a common problem for Mormon missionaries at the time. The article should clarify this point.

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Joseph Abel, MP?

According to the article, Elijah Abel's paternal grandfather was a Member of Parliament named Joseph Abel. I was attempting to find this individual and link to them, but my searches are coming up empty. I checked the History of Parliament website, which should have all MPs during the relevant time period, and there doesn't seem to be an MP by that name. See here for MPs with A last names during 1820-1832; here for 1790-1820; here for 1754-1790; and here for 1715-1754, which would presumably be the earliest for a grandfather of someone born in the early 19th century. There is a Richard Abell (1688-1744), but other than that no one of that last name or its variants shows up as an MP. Other than the handwritten note linked to in the article, is there any independent source attesting to the existence of this Joseph Abel? PohranicniStraze (talk) 04:15, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Quelle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Elijah_Abel