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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 01:02, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coconut cup, silver, English, 1780

• ... that coconut cups were believed to have medical benefits?

• Source: "Cup with cover, Hans van Amsterdam, 1533/34", Metropolitan Museum of Art

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Jacob Frolich

5x expanded by Johnbod (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 243 past nominations.

Johnbod (talk) 21:23, 22 November 2024 (UTC).[reply]

• @Johnbod: Please provide a QPQ, or this may be closed as rejected, due to being incomplete. Z1720 (talk) 15:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you really think I don't know that, or how long the accepted time is per the rules? Johnbod (talk) 16:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Johnbod: WP:QPQ says, "Your QPQ review should ideally be made at the time of your nomination. A nomination which doesn't include a QPQ (and is not from an exempt nominator) may be closed as "incomplete" without warning." Although this ping was not necessary, and I could have closed this nomination without warning, I like reminding nominators so that the QPQ can be completed. If an editor thinks this should be changed or the accepted time for a QPQ needs to be clarified, I invite them to post at WT:DYK. Z1720 (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Your removal after some 30 hours, on a day I added 2 noms, would certainly have been reverted, as I expect you know. I know you relish reminding people of things. Johnbod (talk) 17:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You should've said that this rule has been in place for a few months now, so that the nom knows that it used to be the case where you could provide a QPQ until a week after nomination or after being told to do so. But anyways, if its been over 24 hours since this comment was published and the nom fails to provide a QPQ, feel free to close. JuniperChill (talk) 17:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I missed this change, which frankly seems foolish to me (especially in its vagueness), and was counting on a week to qpq. Now done. Johnbod (talk) 18:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good, now someone will review this eventually. JuniperChill (talk) 19:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

: have made some edits to the lead (replacing a "showy form of cup" with "prestigious form of cup", and merged connected paragraphs. Have an interest in this area (applied medieval arts) so followed the articles development over last few weeks. High quality sourcing, clear prose, hook backed by sources. Ceoil (talk) 23:03, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to Johnbod for expanding and polishing up this interesting article and bringing it to the main page. It appears that the first defining sentence may need some discussion though. Currently it's:

A coconut cup is a showy form of cup typically intended for both use and display.

In the nomination, "prestigious" was tried instead of "showy". The trouble with both of these is that seems that some examples are not especially ornate and are mostly functional in form. A picture in the article shows one of these (right).

Isn't the essential defining characteristic that the cup is made from a coconut? For example, the OED's entry is:

A cup made out of a coconut shell.

Andrew🐉(talk) 10:41, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The change made to the lead was "A coconut cup is a prestigious form of cup intended for display", which I didn't like as many/most were clearly made to be used, even if not often, and not throughout a meal. Some are more showy than others, but even the later ones were made in a period when glass rather than silver had become the norm for drinking wine etc, so I think showy works. They all "make a statement" in the modern sense. Johnbod (talk) 16:39, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to bring the information from Coconut shell cup to this article. As far as i can tell, Coconut cup is both a technical term for the European display piece as well as the term used for a Coconut shell used for serving ([1]), so I feel shell cup and maybe even Coco chocolatero can be included here, with an additional section about contemporary use for serving. Share thoughts here. Drew Stanley (talk) 01:47, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the whole I'm opposed. It's generally a bad idea to ram different cultures from opposite sides of the world together. Why do people keep saying European coconut cups were only for display? They weren't. Coco chocolatero has a sentence here, but is distinct, and a decent length. Coconut shell cup is so poorly written as to be largely unintellible, and references are lacking. Johnbod (talk) 02:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will fix Coconut shell cup with references. It isn't so clear to me that these are cultures from "opposite sides of the world" since coconuts are not native to Europe - the shell cup and its style emerges along with relationship with those other cultures. The European coconut cup is already influenced by and related to other cultures. Even the coco chocolatero is a product of colonialism. Drew Stanley (talk) 17:27, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? Fiji is not the "opposite side of the world" to Europe? How might Fiji have influenced 16th century Europe? That "The European coconut cup is already influenced by and related to other cultures" is the purest WP:OR unless you have refs, and imo extremely dubious. What were imported were the natural products, not whatever cultural uses they had where they grew. Johnbod (talk) 04:39, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say fiji, I said other cultures. There is information about Dutch colonialism in the article already. The european cups influenced the coco cups through Spanish colonialism - in the article already.Drew Stanley (talk) 18:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The title coconut shell cup is so similar that merger is sensible. The current content about Fiji is small and easily accommodated. Such cups were used extensively throughout Polynesian culture, it seems. If that aspect grows too large then the article can be split as needed. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:14, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Such cups were used extensively throughout Polynesian culture, it seems" - very likely so (it would be rather odd if they weren't, frankly), but the material in coconut shell cup only relates to a single highly specific role in Fiji, one reason I think it is best kept where it is. Do you have any refs on other Pacific use? Johnbod (talk) 04:39, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems easy to find extensive accounts of culinary containers in Polynesian culture, including:

• "Household objects" in volume 1 of The Lexicon of Proto-Oceanic
• Everyday drinking habits in Pacific and NZ societies
• Cooking without Pots: Aspects of prehistoric and traditional Polynesian cooking

Coconuts naturally appear in these both as containers and foodstuff.

The key thing is that titles Coconut cup and Coconut shell cup seem much the same and the reader seems as likely to want information about the everyday Polynesian usage as the ornate European examples. In the short term, it seems easiest to consolidate the material together before splitting in some way.

Andrew🐉(talk) 12:40, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually none of these are much help - #1 is dead, #2 about drinking coconut milk from the shell, and while #3 is more to the point, it never uses "Coconut cup", but always "coconut shell". Conversely, all the many many sources I've been reading on Western cups use exclusively "Coconut cup", so while to you the names may "seem much the same", RS do not see it that way. Johnbod (talk) 15:54, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That first URL seemed to depend on some technical context. I've replaced it with a page which lists downloads for each volume of the lexicon. Apart from some basic examples and illustrations, what this mainly shows is that there were many different dialect words for such cups across the Pacific, showing widespread usage, not just Fiji.

And my main point is that there's plenty of material to find if one just looks. Here's three more sources:

• The Coconut Cup as Material and Medium Kennedy
• Hawaiian kava cup in the National Australian Museum
• Samoan kava cup in the BM

The first article shows the evolution of coconut cups across the world, starting with medieval European examples and covering the forms in the New World for drinking yerba and chocolate. The museums show the use in Pacific culture for drinking kava in a social and ceremonial way.

So, per WP:BIAS, encyclopedic coverage of the topic should show the global pattern of usage rather than focussing exclusively on the medieval European case.

Andrew🐉(talk) 09:12, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I still think there are at least 3 subjects here, and 3 or more articles are the best way to handle this. One could write a global article on Wooden beer mugs for example, but we haven't. A different (longer) piece by Kennedy is already used in the article - she doesn't I think mention Pacific cultures at all in either, so I don't know what she is supposed to demonstrate. Coconut shell cup could certainly do with making semse of and expanding. Are you going to do that? The elegant BM cup, with a royal provenance, is lovely, but they must have written the entry in a hurry: the two mentions of the word are given as "cococonut" and "cocoanut"! The 2nd (Oz) link is very useful for Hawaii. Johnbod (talk) 15:18, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a particular plan and so am following my nose and the sources. I find a good general source – Coconut Shells as an Industrial Raw Material – which covers the extensive use of the shells as utensils, knick-knacks and so forth. That leads me to Coconut#Husks and shells. That page is the one which most needs work as it has a significant readership of millions over the years while pages such as coconut cup get comparatively little traffic. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:45, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose merger...they may "seem much the same" but are not. Thanks Andrew for digging up sources, but they should be used to expand Coconut shell cup. Ceoil (talk) 15:15, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Johnbod (talk) 15:54, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article should become the global article (see Johnbod's explanation of "Wooden beer mugs" above) for coconut shell cups. This is my new proposal Drew Stanley (talk) 18:05, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as is clear from the above, I don't agree with this. It is also likely to produce complaints about cultural appropriation, Western bias and so on. Better to keep the distinct subjects in different articles. Do you have any high-quality (academic) sources that treat the topic in a global way? Johnbod (talk) 18:17, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your theoretical wooden beer mugs article wouldn't require an academic source that treats the topic globally...Drew Stanley (talk) 18:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]