Eisspeedway

Talk:Catherine Grand

So called "ingeniousness"

"Madame Grand was known for her striking Nordic beauty, as well as her ingenuous public comments." [1]

"Ingenious" is used satirically in the source materially, not in a literal sense.

″This "belle indolente," although not stupid - she was after all shrewd enough to ensnare the brilliant Talleyrand - was renowned for her child-like beauty and the ingenuousness of her public utterances. When asked where she was from, she would respond naively, "je suis d'Inde" (I am from India), but the phrase could be, and was often, construed as "je suis dinde" (I am a turkey).″ [2]

The article goes on to tell another story in which she mistakenly presumes Napoleon is Robinson Crusoe.

References

  1. ^ https://www.batguano.com/catno12.html
  2. ^ https://www.batguano.com/catno12.html

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Catherine Grand/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: WoodElf (talk · contribs) 23:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 12:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it well written?
    A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:
    B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
  2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
    A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:
    B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):
    C. It contains no original research:
    D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:
    B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
  4. Is it neutral?
    It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
  5. Is it stable?
    It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
  6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

I see this is your first GAN. I would like to help you to improve this article to meet all GA criteria. Please regard my comments as suggestions, and feel free to ignore any of them, but in this case share your arguments with me. Borsoka (talk) 12:58, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Proudhon Pierre Paul - Portrait of Princess Catherine Talleyrand.jpeg: the source at Commons is a dead link. US PD tag is needed (sorry, I failed to mention this.)
  • File:Ghiretta House, by James Moffett.jpg: US PD tag is needed at Commons. Borsoka (talk) 12:58, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking the time to review my nomination. I have made the following changes:
  • Updated the link for File:Proudhon Pierre Paul - Portrait of Princess Catherine Talleyrand.jpeg
  • Updated the US PD tag for File:Ghiretta House, by James Moffett.jpg
User:WoodElf 17:21, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Added US PD tag for File:Proudhon Pierre Paul - Portrait of Princess Catherine Talleyrand.jpeg too. User:WoodElf 10:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

  • Why do you think, Busteed (1908), Charrière de Sévery (1925), Grand (1814), and Lehuraux (1908) are still reliable sources?
  • Why do you think, the two works cited from Shapland are reliable sources? Borsoka (talk) 12:58, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please find my comments on the justification of each below:
    • Busteed (1908) contains the most detailed description of this period of the subject's life. However these details are also corroborated in more recent books, I can provide an alternate / additional citation if you feel that would be more appropriate. - please advise.
    • Same reason as above. Charrière de Sévery (1925) provided the most detailed description; alt / additional citation if needed?
    • I have cited Grand (1814) for biographical details of his own life. I can update this using a more modern citation.
    • Again, Lehuraux (1908) provided a detailed description compared to other sources. Joelson (1965) would be the alternate citation.
  • While not academic journals, the articles are provided by the India Office Records of the British Library, which I would consider a reliable source; or at least as reliable as say Baetjer (2014) cited in the same article, which is a catalogue entry from the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York.
User:WoodElf 17:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Is the article's title fully in line with WP:NAME? It says, "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." For me, the cited sources suggests that she is mainly known as Madame Grand, but I may be wrong. Borsoka (talk) 13:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The subject is variously referred to as Catherine Grand, Madame Grand, and Madame de Talleyrand-Perigord is the various citations. These alternates are mentioned in the info box. I would argue since the subject's first name is known and quite often used in the sources, it is preferable to Madame Grand, which would be an exception to MOS:NAME. I would prefer to call her simply "Grand" in the text body, but I have referred to her as "Catherine", "Mrs Grand" or "Madame Grand" to differentiate her from her husband, also surname Grand. User:WoodElf 17:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the first sentence of the lead "Madame Grand" should be mentioned as a widely used name, because for the time being the article's title suggests that Catherine Grand is her most common name, while she is introduced as Mme de Talleyrand-Perigord. Borsoka (talk) 02:28, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I have updated the lede to clarify that she was commonly called Madame Grand. User:WoodElf 12:31, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have not read the lead, but I assume it could be expanded by a paragraph.
  • ...in the Danish possession of Tranquebar I would mention that Tranquebar is a town, and also mention India.
  • ...a French Indian colonial official... Delete French. The previous link implies that he was employed by a company not by the state. Was he a state official or a company's clerk?
  • Mention that Pondicherry is a town in French India.
  • Pierre was the son of Adam Werlée and Marie Bodeveuc. Delete.
  • Introduce the "Third Carnatic War" as a war between the French and British.
  • Introduce Chandernagore as a town in French India.
  • She was poorly educated, ... Some context?
  • The link to "British colonial clerk" is anachronistic. I assume he was employed by the East India Company.
  • It served as the country house of the French Governors of Chandernagore. Reference?
  • ..., the son of Jean Jacques Grand, a merchant from Lausanne, Switzerland, and his wife Françoise Elizabeth Le Clerc de Virly Delete.
  • ... Grand obtained a writership (a writer being a clerk attached to the East India Company)... Rephrase.
  • Introduce Alipore as a town/village.
  • They embarked... Who?
  • ...(later father of Harriet Grote)... Delete. Borsoka (talk) 02:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    All done, except for the last point: I think it's a interesting bit of trivia that her lover was the father of another historical figure. User:WoodElf 12:32, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Introduce Harriet Grote.
  • I would change the title of section 1.3 to "First affairs" and move the first two sentences from section "Life in Europe" to section 1.3. I would also change the title of section 1 to "Early life", and the title of section 2 to "Rise to fame" or something similar.
  • In 1782 Mrs Grand and Lewin moved to Paris; their affair ended amicably soon after. Rephrase.
  • ...who would rendezvous with her... Only once?
  • Delink Paris and introduce Spa.
  • Introduce Élisabeth Vigée Le Brun with two or three words.
  • Élisabeth Vigée Le Brun painted Catherine's portrait... Why?
  • ... as no. 117... Delete.
  • Link "musical score".
  • ...have been compared... By whom?
  • ...one of the reviewers... Name and introduce them.
  • It has travelled extensively for exhibition, including at the 1939 New York World's Fair, twice at the Grand Palais of Paris, at the Yokohama Museum of Art in 1989, and various other museums around the world. Rephrase.
  • Who is a courtesan? Was she indeed a sex worker, or often changed her wealthy lovers?
  • Introduce with one or two words her lovers, and Colmache.
  • Do we know why Talleyrand intervened on her behalf?
  • ...was annulled in 1798... Was their marriage indeed annulled, or they divorced? Where and by which body?
  • ... in absentia Whose?
  • ...caused Napoleon Bonaparte to issue Talleyrand an ultimatum... When?
  • ...give her up Rephrase.
  • ...Catherine forced herself into a diplomatic dinner being hosted by Talleyrand and declared their engagement. Rephrase.
  • ...signed their marriage contract Signed or witnessed? Did they only sign their marriage contract or witness the marriage?
  • After marriage,... Delete.
  • ...did not change Napoleon's contemptuous attitude toward Catherine There is no reference to this attitude in previous sentences.
  • ...is alleged to have remarked... Who is the original source of the statement?
  • The implied rebuke ensured... The previous sentences imply that the conversation between Napoleon and Mme Grand may have not happened, while this sentence presents it as a fact.
  • Link Coronation of Napoleon.
  • ... was believed... By whom?
  • Introduce the Duke of San Carlos (the sentence implies he was a member of the Spanish royal family).
  • Catherine was with her husband when they welcomed Tsar Alexander I of Russia to Paris upon Napoleon's downfall in 1814. A reference to verify the statement is needed. Rephrase.
  • From the Congress of Vienna in 1815, Talleyrand took the much younger Duchess of Dino as his mistress... Some context? (What is the Congress? Why were Talleyrand there? Did he meet her in Vienna?
  • ...the much younger... Age?
  • ...was banished... By whom?
  • She returned to France... Some context?
  • ...from the income she received from Talleyrand... There is not reference to this income in the previous sentences.
  • ...her own ventures Some details?
  • ...Catherine grew excessively ... vain of her rank of princess. Rephrase.
  • She died... Do we know her lethal illness? Borsoka (talk) 03:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@WoodElf: when do you think you can address the above issues? Borsoka (talk) 02:58, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, sorry to be MIA. I am dealing with something IRL, I will get back to it from 21 Jan (Tuesday). Thanks. User:WoodElf 12:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@WoodElf: when do you think you could address the above issues? I am planning to complete the review in two days. Borsoka (talk) 03:41, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Quelle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Catherine_Grand