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Talk:Ismail al-Jazari

Sources for "Kurdish" ethnicity

  • Michael A Genovese; political scientist with no specialization in Islamic studies or Islamic history
  • Yazdani, Kaveh (2017). India, Modernity and the Great Divergence: Mysore and Gujarat (17th to 19th C.). BRILL. p. 113. ISBN 9789004330795.

Yazdani's book is about India from 17th to 19th century and makes a passing mention of Jazari's ethnicity, while Yazdani's specialization appears to be Mughal/post-Mughal India. Would this make Yazdani a reliable source for al-Jazari(1136–1206)?
Would like the opinions of:

@Kansas Bear: Both of them are weak sources in my opinion. Michael A. Genovese is a professor of political science and I don't think Kaveh Yazdani's book is an expert source for the ethnicity and background of this scholar. There may be better scholary sources if the Kurdish background is a valid claim among historians. @HistoryofIran and Mazandar: What do you think about this? --Wario-Man (talk) 05:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The problem in these cases is that reliable information is not available. In that situation, most scholars wouldn't say anything about it. For Al-Khwarizmi, I found a source that says that information isn't available [1]. But it is rare to find such statements in sources. If some scholar sticks his/her neck out and makes a claim, our policies say we can state it. The best we can do is perhaps to remove the info from the lead, and put it in the bdoy, making it clear that it is uncertain. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:58, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Those aren't the only 2 sources stating his Kurdish ethnicity; there are plenty more. It's rare to see him being called an Arab or sometimes even Turk; all those claims come from Arab and Turkish nationalists. Just look at the edit history of Wikipedia's "Saladin" page, another Kurd who has been claimed hundreds of times by Arabs and Turks. Not only was Al Jazari a Kurd, but him being anything else wouldn't make much sense in that region's time and context; he was born in Cizre (Jazira), which is and has always been a city in the "heart of Kurdistan". The city was capital of many Kurdish principalities. Furthermore, Jazari was born at a time when Kurdish dynasties thrives; his peak was during the Kurdish Ayyubid's (Saladin) peak, and he was a citizen of that Kurdish empire.

His ethnicity is maybe not written in stone, but there ARE sources. And that should be enough for a person that lived almost a thousand years ago.

83.82.163.173 (talk) 09:36, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not when the sources in question are written by non-historians.
  • "Not only was Al Jazari a Kurd, but him being anything else wouldn't make much sense in that region's time and context; he was born in Cizre (Jazira), which is and has always been a city in the "heart of Kurdistan"."
And yet, the only historian to call him a Kurd, and then in passing, is a out of a book about India during the 17th~19th centuries! Hardly definitive! Even the Encyclopedia of Islam makes no claims as to his ethnicity.
  • "his peak was during the Kurdish Ayyubid's (Saladin) peak, and he was a citizen of that Kurdish empire."
Saladin's "Kurdish Empire" held Arabs, Turks, Kurds, Persians, Jews, Christians, etc. Odd how these IPs continue to show up to give their personal opinion and bring no sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 11:46, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Cizre ("Jazira") has produced a long line of famous Kurds from Islamic Golden Age. All of the following famous individuals from the Islamic Golden Age were all born in the same city, carried a similar family name, and all served under Ayyubid Empire or one of its vassals. One of them was Saladin's personal historian/biographer:

Saladin's historian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_ibn_al-Athir

Born in the same city. Known by the same family name: "Ali 'Izz al-Din Ibn al-Athir al-Jazari" ***AL JAZARI***

The other brothers from the same family:

Majd ad-Dīn - publisher of several dictionaries, including one on family names.

Diyā' ad-Dīn - famous author who penned several important books on culture and literature. A selection of his letters published by David Samuel Margoliouth are available under the title On the Royal Correspondence of Diyā' ad-Dīn al-Jazarī. ---> ***AL JAZARI***

So, we have:

- Several sources in which this Al-Jazari is called a Kurd, including older sources from eras where ethnicity wasn't a big aspect of Middle-Eastern life. - He is born in a Kurdish city; it was a Kurdish city back then and it is still a Kurdish city. - He was born in a prominent family in a Kurdish city during the peak of Kurdish power/might during the Middle-Ages. He was a citizen of Saladin's Kurdish Ayyubid empire and served for one of its vassal states. - He carries the same family name as other famous Kurds from the same city with the same family; their ethnic background is not disputed whatsoever, maybe because this "Al-Jazari" is one of the most important scientists from Islamic Golden Age, so non-Kurds try harder to "claim him".

All of this is a COINCIDENCE? What a HUGE coincidence then! Funny how these HUGE coincidences happen to Kurdish history all the time!

How many "Al Jazari" families were there during Islamic Golden Age? I know only of one: the Kurdish family from Cizre / Jazira!

83.82.163.173 (talk) 10:43, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly agree, he was indeed a Kurd, and the whole reason they don't want to claim that is because they want to erase Kurdish history. They have been doing this for many years. even if you look at the world map there is no Kurdistan even when they are a country and not just an ethnicity,
Thanks for the sources 62.201.255.112 (talk) 18:10, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The HUGE COINCIDENCE thickens. Here's an article from an Islamic website (so VERY neutral about ethnicity, this is not sarcasm by the way), about "IMAAM IBN AL-JAZARI", a prominent historic scholar from the same city. This is what is written about him:

The Imaam describes himself in his famous nadhm (poem) in ‘Ilm at-Tajweed (Science of Tajweed), al-Muqaddimah al-Jazariyyah (al-Muqaddimah feemaa yajibu ‘alaa qaari’ al-Qur’aan an-ya’lamah) as ‘Imaam al-Jazari’. ‘Jazari’ is a location in the Kurdistan/Turkmenistan/Iraq region. He belongs to a place called Ibn -‘Umar and the ‘ulamaa say that he has Kurdiy asl (Kurdish origins).

Source: http://idealmuslimah.com/personalities/mencholars/515-imaam-ibn-al-jazari.html

So a historic figure from the same city and period with the same family name literally wrote about his Kurdish origins.

But this Al-Jazari, from the same city, period, and family name, no, this one is DEFINITELY from a completely different family. Probably an Arab or Turk. Makes more sense than him having been a Kurd. /s

83.82.163.173 (talk) 10:51, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coincidence or not. I still see no published secondary source presented.
Odd, how you ignored this particular source:Historiography of the Ayyubid and Mamluk epochs, Donald P. Little, The Cambridge History of Egypt. That states al-Athir was Arab. Donald P. Little. Undoubtedly, this is a coincidence that you have ignored an academic in the field of Islamic studies stating Ibn al-Athir was Arab.
Author of this article? Would appear to be "Unknown". Website is edited by ???? FYI, just because you find something that agrees with what you think, does not make it a reliable source for Wikipedia.
Examples of published secondary sources:
  • "Distinguished Figures in Mechanism and Machine Science, ed. Marco Ceccarelli, chapter authors, Lofti Romdhane and Said Zeghloul, "Ismail Al-Jazari (1136-1206), Arab inventor who is remember for his design of water-raising machines..."
Marco Ceccarelli, mechanical engineer degree, 1982 at the University “La Sapienza” of Rome. At the same University he received a Ph.D. degree in Applied Mechanics in 1988.
Lofti Romdhane, Professor and Director of the Mechatronics Engineering Graduate Program. PhD in Mechanical Engineering
Zeghloul Said, Professeur de Mécanique, Université de Poitiers. Robotique, CAO, Préhension, Génie Mécanique.
This source is a published, secondary source, by academics. Should it be used?
More sources for Arab ethnicity:
  • "Engineering and Technology, By Michael Hacker, David Burghardt, Linnea Fletcher, Anthony Gordon, William Peruzzi
  • "The Book of Ingenious Devices / Kitáb al-Ḥiyal: Kitáb al-Hiyal, by Donald R Hill
Persian ethnicity:
  • "A Biographical Dictionary of People in Engineering, By Carl W. Hall
Compared to the IP's source which is an unauthored, unpublished website? Perhaps our best option is to move the ethnicity out of the lead and into the body of the article. Indicate all three(Arab,Kurd,Persian) ethnicities highlighting the fact that these are stated by non-historians. --Kansas Bear (talk) 13:38, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, not a good idea at all. There are no reliable indicators for him having been anything else than Kurdish. Persian is ultimately ridiculous. Seems like you are on some kind of anti-Kurd crusades, I have seen you post in talk sections of other "controversial" articles before regarding the ethnicity of some Kurdish individuals.

His ethnicity should stay in the introduction. No point in adding "maybe he was Arab or Persian". I have provided plenty of evidence about the Al-Jazari family name; literally all Al-Jazari's who were born in Cizre (Jazira) were Kurds and are recorded as such in plenty of reliable historic and contemporary sources.

He was a Kurd. Period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.82.163.173 (talk) 15:26, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, nice pathetic attempt at trolling. You wrote this:

  • "The Book of Ingenious Devices / Kitáb al-Ḥiyal: Kitáb al-Hiyal, by Donald R Hill
Persian ethnicity:

That book was written by the 3 Persian brothers known as Banu Musa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Ingenious_Devices

The book authored by the Kurdish polymath Al-Jazari is titled: The Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices

As you can see, the titles look alike, but are NOT the same.

You shouldn't really be discussing in this section. It seems like you cant even differentiate between 2 books that were written centuries apart. The very basics of history of the region, and both books are extremely famous. You are not informed enough about this subject to contribute.

The "Persian" ethnicity can therefore be completely disregarded, and should not even be hinted at.

Weak trolling attempt. Try harder next time.

83.82.163.173 (talk) 15:33, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Trolling? LOL. Since you can not support your personal opinion with facts, you blatantly misread my information? LMAO
  • "There are no reliable indicators for him having been anything else than Kurdish."
You have not posted a reliable source for Kurdish.
  • "You shouldn't really be discussing in this section. It seems like you cant even differentiate between 2 books that were written centuries apart."
Instead of showing off your ignorance, perhaps you should read the book. Page 22, "..al-Jazari(book composed 1206).[..]. All these writers were concerned with the application of hydraulic power to activate the biological and cosmographical automata on monumental clocks..." Imagine that. Also from the article, "He is best known for writing The Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices (Arabic: الجامع بين العلم والعمل النافع في صناعة الحيل‎‎) in 1206..."
FYI, I never said al-Jazari authored "The Book of Ingenious Devices".
  • "The very basics of history of the region, and both books are extremely famous. You are not informed enough about this subject to contribute."
Apparently you are not informed enough about this subject to contribute. You were in such a hurry to disprove sources, that you did not even read the book!
  • "The "Persian" ethnicity can therefore be completely disregarded, and should not even be hinted at."
Actually that was in this book,"A Biographical Dictionary of People in Engineering, By Carl W. Hall, since you have a problem reading.
  • "Weak trolling attempt. Try harder next time."
Nope. Just proving how inept you are at discussing facts. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:14, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And more sources for Arab ethnicity, including Mehmet Aga-Oglu an historian.

Looks like pathetic nationalists insist on calling him an Arab or Persian somehow, even though he was from a Kurdish family, lived in a Kurdish region, born in a Kurdish city, and lived during the height of Kurdish medieval power (Ayyubids).

Changed the body of the text accordingly.

"Persian" will be consistently removed if it is added. Persians have no medieval history and belonging in that region, whatsoever. Especially Cizre.

83.82.163.173 (talk) 09:00, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Threating to edit war, battleground comments, and ignoring what sources state, just proves this IP is not here to build an encyclopedia. Further personal attacks will be reported. --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:27, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wild list of references on a Talk page (below)

Ethnic background

The ethnicity of this scholar is a matter of disruption, since many people (IP/brand new accounts) often show up to add "Kurd" or "Arab" or "XXX". Taking a look at this version of the article, one can see that this scholar has been variously described as Kurd, Arab or Persian, i suggest to add back these ethnicities along with the relevant sources. @Kansas Bear, HistoryofIran, and C.Fred: Thoughts ?---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 05:42, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind having them added in the biography section. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:17, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree: if it's to be mentioned, it should be only in the biography section, not in the intro. —C.Fred (talk) 11:58, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Mention the ethnicities only in the body of the article, not the Lead. --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:47, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for your insight. Best.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 20:11, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He is an arab not kurd or turk

Ismail Al-Jazari is an Arab, not a Kurd or a Turk. Both of them were nomads in his time,, the arab has settled the area of ​​​​the upper Euphrates since before Islam, even the city of Jazira Omar, or what they distort it name to cizer or butan, a city built by the Arabs and which was intended as settlement for the Bani Shayban tribe, to which Ibn Al-Atheer Shaybani Al-Jazari belong to and many other scholars . The Kurds lived in the mountein of . This is what the traveler Ibn Hubayr mentioned when he visited the city. The demographics of the city changed from the Ottoman era in the 18th century until the extermination of the Armenians and Assyrians at the hands of the Kurds. 105.68.178.107 (talk) 11:24, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This statement you made has been interpreted from a completely anti-Kurdish perspective. I would also like you to know that your assumption that the Kurds were completely nomadic in the Middle Ages is nothing but nonsense. 88.238.57.194 (talk) 16:31, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Disregard of WP:RS, WP:CITATION and WP:VER

@Najibhakimy: Can you please read my edit summaries and your warnings on you talk page? And then the policies I posted? Instead of just keep doing the same? HistoryofIran (talk) 16:47, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have read all your edit summaries but can't you see the sources that I have added Najibhakimy (talk) 16:49, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but you're not listening. Please read the policies in those edit summaries this time. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:51, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quelle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Al-Jazari