As a note, Template:succession2 and Template:succession3 also exist now to overcome the limitation issues. Any changes made to this template need to be made to them as well. Mackensen (talk) 01:03, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Now also Template:Succession4, because of Gladstone. Mackensen (talk) 01:45, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• James has created Template:Succession box two to one also. Mackensen (talk) 19:31, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • ... and Template:Succession box one to two. James F. (talk) 22:26, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Template:Succession box one to one, for when two offices pass from one person through another to one person. Mackensen (talk) 19:43, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• ... and Template:Succession box one by three to one - no, I'm not happy with the name, either. Suggestions, please? James F. (talk) 03:25, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Template:Succession box three to one. We may never need it again after Neville Chamberlain...--Mackensen (talk) 19:54, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • ... and Template:Succession box one to three. James F. (talk) 02:58, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The template uses "id=toc" to assign style information to elements. That's incorrect approach. According to HTML specification, the id attribute must be unique for a given document (page). It must not appear more than once on the page. The template produces a copy of id=toc for every row. That should be fixed. The style information should be assigned through class="some_class_name" instead of id="toc".

See http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#adef-id

id = name [CS]
   This attribute assigns a name to an element. This name must be unique in a document.

--Gene s 08:04, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Fixed; it took all of 5 seconds.

James F. (talk) 13:32, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That's because it was not a good fix :-P

You assign the class to every row, when a clean solution would only asign the class to the table itself {{start box}} :-)

--Gene s 13:37, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Oy veh. {{sofixit}}.

James F. (talk) 13:42, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It was done before you posted your comment :-) --Gene s

moved here, as it's more appropriate James F. (talk) 13:41, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Would anyone object if I update the table with a prettier version (and appropriately update Template:preceded and Template:succeeded too, in place of prev/next in this example)?

--Gene s 13:46, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Given that I suggested switching a fortnight ago, I'm happy with changing the box itself, but I don't think it looks so good with the differently-coloured "Preceded by:" and "Succeeded by:" bits...

James F. (talk) 13:36, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

P.S. Actually, also, I don't think it works too well on two lines, because it makes the spacing that bit larger...

James F. (talk) 13:38, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, it copies the style of various geography templates. It has the same color and spacing as, for example, the Template:G8 or Template:Europe. --Gene s 14:19, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That it may be, but these are not set boxes like the ones you mentioned, but instead succession boxes, which, everywhere, seem to use the formatting as shown on Tony Blair, Winston Churchill, and several hundred other articles on British politicians...

James F. (talk) 17:07, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Everywhere" is a big stretch. As far as I can see, the majority of articles still uses the plain HTML table for succession boxes, or no succession at all. The succession box on Winston_Churchill page looks unreasonably verbose with "Preceded by" and "Succeeded by" in every row.

I believe all navigation tables should have the same look. The geography navigation IMO looks prettier. It serves the same purpose as the succession navigation boxes. I don't see a reason why they should be formatted differently. The British politicians succession boxes use {{succession box}} templates. It would not be too hard to update that template to the same look as the geography navigation. --Gene s 05:04, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And another point regaring {{succession box}} on Winston_Churchill page. It bolds all text except years in office and padding (preceded/succeeded) which is useless in the first place. Bolding everything is wrong. Bolding should be used to emphesize a certain part of the text. When everything is bold (everything emphesized), then it's equivalent to nothing being emphesized. --Gene s 07:41, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And yet anothet point regaring {{succession box}}. The internal inter-cell vertical lines in that box are black, while horizontal lines and outer borders are gray. Why?

What's the reason for assigning style information through id (id=toc) instead of an explicit class declaration? Having two or more elements with the same id is invalid (see http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#adef-id This name must be unique in a document.). That page has multiple elements with the same id - the actual TOC and every row in the navigation box. That should be fixed. --Gene s 07:50, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The current {{succession box}} can be easily converted to something like this for the joined box, like the one on Winston Churchill page

By adding a variable for rowspan="N" it would work for complex cases too. The word office in the caption should be a template. --Gene s 14:09, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Argh.

I don't doubt that one could do what you want, I merely point out that it's absolutely awfully ugly. :-)

Years of office are important, but you seem to dislike these.

Also, I think I actually prefer saying "preceded by" each time.

James F. (talk) 16:38, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, clearly there are different opinions on what is considered ugly. I think the current table ain't grand either. Would you share anything more specific than that?

I made the table as a quick example. The actual template should be backwards compatible, thus the years in office must be present. I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that such a minor detail can be skipped from the sample. Here you go, with the dates.

And I think that is redundant. It clutters the table with the obvious. What is the purpose of having the preceded/succeeded in every row? What does it achieve? Same goes for bolding all the text in the table.

By the way, what kind of monitor do you use to view this? Can it be some sort of LCD screen by any chance? --Gene s

I agree with James; I think the current style is quite decent and see no need for another change (hell, we haven't even updated all the old wikitax tables yet!) Mackensen (talk) 16:57, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The style of this box is different from the styles of the other navigation boxes. As for the old style not being updated, that is really not a problem. One does not preclude the other. Templates are great because updating one automatically updates all the pages where it's used. --Gene s 05:20, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Actually, your declaration that all geography templates use your personally-preferred style isn't wholly correct - see, for example, Hertfordshire and the like.

I wasn't responding to your table, but your comment, above, saying that you didn't like having years in the template. And not all the text is emboldened - indeed, that's the whole point, that the years and "preceded by" bits aren't.

As for what monitors I've looked at the different styles over the recent months, well, yes, LCDs feature - 3 Apple laptop LCDs, 2 Sun workstation CRTs, and my personal workstation's monitors - 2 Iiyama CRTs, 2 Iiyama LCDs, and 2 SGI LCDs. The colour saturation balance is off, IMO, and it looks much better unadorned with festoonery and the like about it.

I propose re-implementing Template:Succession with this one and startbox/endbox, for cleanliness and the vyed-for homogeneity.

James F. (talk) 16:01, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Please don't move comments around. Your rearrangement of comments makes the sequance of responces less clear. If you don't like my responces inserted after your individual statements, just say so.

your declaration that all geography templates use your personally-preferred style isn't wholly correct - I never said all. It's not just a significant fraction of geography templates (world, Europe, EU, France, Russia, Switzerland, and probably more). There are a few others in this style, for example {{headgear}}. saying that you didn't like having years - please point me to that comment. I can't see it anywhere. I believe I never made such comment because I think years are useful.

As for LCD, I am using two different displays. One represents shades a lot better than the other. The templates look somewhat different on these screens. The template looks a lot better on the screen with better color reproduction. It also looks pretty good on a CRT screen. So, my suspicion was that you were using some sort of LCD with poor color reproduction, and consequently objected to the style.

I already described my objections to the current {{succession box}}: (a) the style is inconsistent with the majority of other navigation templates, (b) redundant preceded/succeeded in every row, (3) bolding of everything. I believe it's wrong to change the {{succession}} to the style which would incorporate these problems (compatibility should be considered too - see below). Can you actually state your objections to the style that I am advocating? Anything objective that can be addressed? Beyond it being "ugly"?

I propose re-implementing Template:Succession with this one and startbox/endbox, if we forget for a second that we have mot agreed on the style yet, then I'm sure you understand that the updated template must be backwards compatible. It would still have to be a single line {{succession|office=xxx|preceded=xxx|succeeded=xxx}}, because otherwise all the pages where this template is used would have to be updated. And that's a lot of work for no real gain.

--Gene s 10:17, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Lot of work? Pah:
{{start box}}
{{succession box | before={{{preceded}}} | title={{{office}}} | after={{{succeeded}}} }}
{{end box}}
Obviously the template has to be backwards compatible - otherwise, we'd just delete it.
Mind you, fixing the pages linking to Template:Succession is no major problem either - I'm happy to do it (an hour, at most).
You still don't seem to actually understand what I'm saying - this is not like "the other navigation templates" - it's not a set-selection one, as you suggested, where there are dozens (all possible entries) listed, and one of them is highlighted, but a succession thing, which rather different in concept and, if anything, it is probably better that the two do not look wholly alike, as we are asking the reader to adopt a wholly different mental model to use them.
As for my re-formatting of your comment, it was to fix the mess created by interspersed comments - they work fine, but only if your comment is the last one in the discussion; any more, and it's unreadable to the nth degree. Policy comments on this, somewhere, I think, not to mention common practice.
James F. (talk) 02:34, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Why not create a Template:Start succession box and use that with Template:Succession box? This would make it easy to change the layout. If you want to change the layout of the table you edit the start template. The you just have to edit the templates if you want to change something. Jeltz 17:58, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)