• This template was listed on templates for deletion, but there was no consensus to delete. See the log. (archive entry) Courtland 02:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This infobox may be too big; maybe it would be better to split into sexual orientation and homosexuality infoboxes. Rd232 22:51, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Errr ... transgender is not a sexual orientiation, and should not be there. However, a link to Homosexuality and transgender would be most appropriate, since that article discusses the problems with the terms "homo-" and "heterosexuality". I'd appreciate if somebody more familiar with the ideas behind this template would correct this - otherwise I will have to. Oh, and gender identity has also little, if anything to do with sexual orientation. Gender role is also not entirely unquestionable. And military service - uhm, yes, well, that is a USA topic, but I seriously doubt it is a mayor topic for sexual orientation in general. -- AlexR 01:54, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I thought I'd start off being generous on the inclusion side, and go from there. Let's see if there any more comments before we start refining it. Rd232 10:25, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing wrong with being inclusive - only that is a different thing. Now, transpeople have a sexual orientation, of course, but that isn't it. BTW, have you considered replacing "homosexual" with "gay and lesbian" or similar? See the link above for why I would consider this to be a good idea. Because this would really include transpeople, on a meaningfull level. -- AlexR 11:54, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but "sexual orientation" can also mean gender orientation if you interpret the sex in sexual to mean gender. ;-) --Revolución (talk) 00:02, 12 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If that is supposed to mean "orientation towards a gender (instead of a sex)" then yes, it can - but that does not change the fact that transgender (all forms) is not a sexual orientation itself. Orientation is always in relationship to another; gender identity however is the sense of self, regardless of other. -- AlexR

The inclusion of "two-spirit" in the template seems odd; firstly because it is primarily/historically a term for "third gender" (and gender identity is not sexual orientation as per discussion above), and secondly because it a term specific to a small number of people in North America. If we want to include "third genders" why not put hijra, who easily number in the millions, or faafafine etc etc? The easy answer is just to remove this term from the list.

However, I want to complicate things a bit by suggesting that gender identity and sexual orientation are in fact strongly linked, and in many cultures, inseperable. Why, for instance, do we find the term "LGBT" (or LGBTI) so useful? As the page homosexuality and transgender notes, in Mangus Hirschfeld's late 19th century Germany, all who "violated heteronormative rules" were considered "third gender", and a similar group of people are now "queer" or LGBT. The re-defining of homosexuals as "normal" women who just happen to love women (and men who love men), and rejecting gender variance in the process, was for a few decades the orthodoxy of "gay lib", but it doesn't hold up for many parts of the world and many moments in history.

Which brings us back to the term "two-spirit" — according to the wikipedia article, it has been taken up by many contemporary Native American "gays, lesbians and bisexuals" as well as trans and intersex people. Think also of the Latin American "loca" (similar to western cultures' "queen") and travesti, both of whom have gender identities quite distinct from those in "the straight world". A loca commonly has a male body, dresses and acts "effeminately", refers to themself and other locas with a mix of feminine and masculine pronouns, is "passive" in sexual relations, and attracted to "real men". Are they gay and a bit trans? Where is the line between a loca and a travesti? What about their sexual partners who see themselves as real men/straight men and are also seen as real men/straight men by the wider community? Such an articifical seperation doesn't do justice to locas, or to the men they are with, who have to be inappropriately classified as "bisexual" or "MSM" in this taxonomy. Even in the US, according to historians like George Chauncey, the "queen" was the major figure in the "gay world" prior to WW2 before the straight-acting (read: gender normative) rough trade identity took off; such a sex-gender system is really widespread.

So while it is important to recognise the specific lives of transpeople in the western world and not subsume them under some broad "sexual orientation" banner, I don't want to entirely divorce gender variance from homosexuality (and marginalise transpeople in the process). The terms homo- and heterosexual have a gender identity "built in" anyway - you identify as the "same" or "different" gender to those you desire ("bisexual", on the other hand, doesn't presuppose a gender identity). The template also has "violence against LGBTs" under "attitudes to homosexuality", and if we are to strictly seperate gender identities from sexual orientation, we should remove the T - which (I'm sure we all agree) would be missing the point.

I don't have an easy solution other than perhaps renaming (or removing) the "attitudes to homosexuality" section, but I am very interested to read what others think, particularly Alex. ntennis 01:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I added autosexuality, since that seems as much a valid sexual orientation as asexuality and such. Blackcats 06:21, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add Pederasty under the "general topics" header, as a pointer into what is turning out to be a rather large collection of articles on age-structured homosexuality. Is this a good location, or should it rather be placed under the Orientations category?

On a separate topic, both autosexuality and animal sexuality seem out of place here. The first is not an orientation, it is a sexual behavior engaged in by people of all orientations. The second has nothing to do with orientation, though presumably an article specifically on sexual orientation in animals might fit here. Haiduc 23:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This template seems a little confused to me. I think it's great, but let's get the scope clear. "Sexual orientation" is defined on that page as relating to the sex(es)/gender(s) that a person is attracted to. In the case of homo and heterosexuality, this definition also depends on one's own gender identity. Unless we broaden the definition of sexual orientation, asexualilty and autosexuality don't fit, as Haiduc noted above, and we might want to add Gynophilia (Gynephilia) and Androphilia, which are at least as common as monosexuality. On the other hand, if we want to include non-gender specific orientations, then what about dominant, submissive and 'egalitarian' orientations? Shouldn't we also include a primary attraction to animals? What about non-primary orientations, fetishes, etc? Interesting but, I think, unwieldy.

The next section, "general topics", starts with biology, choice, environment, and demographics of sexual orientation. These topics fit well under the heading of sexual orientation. Then we move into the history of sex, gender role, gender identity, human sexuality, animal sexuality, and criticisms of sexual behaviour. These are, at best, related or background topics. As Alex pointed out above, a "gender identity" is not a sexual orientation. Nor, I might add, is sexual behaviour or sexual practice. Maybe these could be removed, or put in a "see also" section?

Then we have a whole section on "aspects of homosexuality", making homosexuality a privileged orientation in the template. Do we give other orientations a section too? Or just the "big three"? Further complicating the situation is that this homosexuality section is a kind of grab bag of gay, bisexual topics and transgender topics, with no guidelines for what should or shouldn't go in there. Finally, we have "religion and sexual orientation" - a nice fit for a "sexual orientation" template - and then six major religions and their relationship with "homosexuality".

It seems to me that there are two broad approaches to this confusion.

1) Come clean about the covert topic of the template as it stands, and change its name to "homosexuality", "same-sex sexuality" or "LGBT", adding and removing links as appropriate. Maybe sections on "gender structured" and "age-structured" same-sex behaviour, to keep the focus global and trans-historical.

2) Commit to the topic of "sexual orientation", adding and removing links as appropriate, and writing guidelines for what can be included in future.

In the interest of provoking a discussion, I propose a variant on the second option: changing the name to "sexual orientation and gender identity". I believe that the two can't be seperated in many parts of the world, and wikipedia is (or should be) a global encyclopedia. I also prefer option 2 to 1 because 1 sort of ghettoises homosexuality and transgender, whereas 2 places all sexual orientations and genders on the same footing.

ntennis 02:08, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone with option 2 above, following Rd232's suggestion above. Here is the stuff I removed; someone may like to make a "homosexuality" template from it. ntennis 04:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to be so rushed, but I think major branches of homosexuality should go back into a generalized template. no matter whether another dedicated one is later made. Lesbianism, and the three main forms of homosexuality are probably not too much, not too little. Haiduc 13:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What about major branches of heterosexuality? The template is quite large already. I added Lesbian as per (part of) your suggestion but another editor, Tasc, disagreed. I encourage Tasc to elaborate on your edit summary here :) ntennis 13:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

let's not confuse readers. Lesbians and gays are homosexual. It's aknowledge by science and society. Anyway as was suggested early by you - they don't belong to such pared template. Perhaps, we should create homosexuality template. On the other hand, I honestly don't see where it fits. --tasc 13:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't object to the minimalist template, but I would like to request the person who cut out the other parts (ntennis, is that you?) to set up a "Homosexuality" template, which I'll be happy to post to the various pages. It makes sense that we should have that kind of hierarchy to these templates. Haiduc 17:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CORRECTION: I suggest naming the new template "Same-sex relations" since it is far more inclusive than "homosexuality". Haiduc 17:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Should pedophilia be given its own entry to the template, since it is a subset of paraphilia, or should they both be on the template? Beno1000 02:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I had the same thought when I saw the edit. Unfortunately this latest addition opens the door to everyone else piling on his favorite 'philia. It is obviously redundant and I'd like to request whoever added it to remove it. Haiduc 03:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I added it because someone else added zoosexuality. I guess this slippery slope stuff really does work.

If pedophilia is removed, zoosexuality should also be removed. JayW 20:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For consistency, if zoosexuality is synonymous with zoophilia, it should be removed. If it is not, that is another matter. Haiduc 22:53, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I've proposed that the article zoosexuality be merged with zoophilia and I also think that it is unneccesary to have either pedophilia or zoophilia/zoosexuality in the template, since they are probably less common than some other paraphilias such as BDSM which are not included in the template. Beno1000 00:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The difference is, this is not "Template:Paraphilias". It's "Template:Sexual orientation". So far as I'm aware, nobody has proposed and researched a sexual orientation called "BDSM". By contrast significant peer reviewed studies and researches have addressed that exact question with "zoosexuality" and concluded there is a sexual orientation of that type. FT2 (Talk) 23:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]