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:The sources plainly point out that his origins are not truly known. The best that we can do is to say that historians suggest that he may have come from southern India. --[[User:Ghostexorcist|Ghostexorcist]] ([[User talk:Ghostexorcist|talk]]) 14:41, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
:The sources plainly point out that his origins are not truly known. The best that we can do is to say that historians suggest that he may have come from southern India. --[[User:Ghostexorcist|Ghostexorcist]] ([[User talk:Ghostexorcist|talk]]) 14:41, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Ghostexorcist -- I do'not understand whats your concern in putting his name in Tamil. his mothertongue is Tamil and so am trying to put his name is in Tamil. I am from Chennai, India. Mahabalipuram -- A pallava capital is an hour drive from my home. I am known growing up with stories of Pallavas, BodhiDharma, Siddha medicine and all. You sitting in USA and have little practical knowledge about Tamilnadu or south india, wants to control this thing ? I think you have insidious agenda in doing so.


== 7am Arivu ==
== 7am Arivu ==

Revision as of 14:06, 31 October 2011

Citation overkill in the lede?

All I see that Bodhidharma was from south India. Being known martial arts tells me he somehow connected to present Kerala. Whether he is Brahmin or kshyatria tells me he was aryan just like every king in olden India was a Kshyatriya and an aryan. No where I see any context about about tamilnadu.


<ref>Broughton 1999:2; Dumoulin 2005:90; Addiss 2008:9; Faure 1996:45; Hoover 1999:1(Chapter One); Dumoulin 1988:89; Chung 1998:188; Jørgensen 2005:111</ref>

This style is a bit more pleasing to the eye:

<ref>Broughton, 1999, p. 2; Dumoulin, 2005, p. 90; Addiss, 2008, p. 9; Faure, 1996, p. 45; Hoover, 1999, p. 1, Chapter One; Dumoulin, p. 1988, p. 89; Chung, 1998, p. 188; Jørgensen, 2005, p. 111</ref>

However, the latter style would require changing the entire reference format. I offer it only to show an alternative. I recommend doing a first pass, bundling multiple references per the example above, and then coming back on a second pass to see if the multiple refs are even needed. Viriditas (talk) 03:43, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence in the lede, "Scholars have concluded his place of birth to be Kanchipuram in Tamil Nadu." is supported by eight citations. This seems to be a bit much, so I wanted to discuss the possibility of trimming this down to around two or three of the strongest and most reliable sources. Does anyone have any objection to this, or a suggestion on which of the references would be best to keep, and which can be removed? - SudoGhost 09:08, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do we know if the citations just support that sentence or the entire paragraph? We would have to look through the page history and/or the talk page to find out for sure. As a short term solution, what about bundling the refs like this:


I do have a question, if any editors would know. Why is the Tamil translation in the lede? It was inserted here by an IP editor, but I don't see why this Tamil translation gives an English reader any further understanding of the article's subject, as most English readers wouldn't even begin to know how to pronounce போதிதர்மன். I'm removing it from the lede, as it is already found in the infobox. - SudoGhost 19:42, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Person's name in their native language is usually added in the lede. I think it should be added! Ben (talk) 21:44, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence in the lede, "Scholars have concluded his place of birth to be Kanchipuram in Tamil Nadu." is supported by eight citations. This seems to be a bit much, so I wanted to discuss the possibility of trimming this down to around two or three of the strongest and most reliable sources. Does anyone have any objection to this, or a suggestion on which of the references would be best to keep, and which can be removed? - SudoGhost 09:08, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Do we know if the citations just support that sentence or the entire paragraph? We would have to look through the page history and/or the talk page to find out for sure. As a short term solution, what about bundling the refs like this:
And, yea I thought you always added the person's native name and transliteration in the lede, so Tamil seems obvious...
--90.215.129.236 (talk) 22:19, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The sources on the page do not support a historical connection to the southern kingdom. See the discussion below for more details. For his connection to martial arts, please see the section of the article called "Bodhidharma at Shaolin." --Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:22, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No the sources below seem to contest his origin in Kanchipuram, they seem to point out South India quite consistently. --90.215.129.236 (talk) 14:00, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The sources plainly point out that his origins are not truly known. The best that we can do is to say that historians suggest that he may have come from southern India. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 14:41, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ghostexorcist -- I do'not understand whats your concern in putting his name in Tamil. his mothertongue is Tamil and so am trying to put his name is in Tamil. I am from Chennai, India. Mahabalipuram -- A pallava capital is an hour drive from my home. I am known growing up with stories of Pallavas, BodhiDharma, Siddha medicine and all. You sitting in USA and have little practical knowledge about Tamilnadu or south india, wants to control this thing ? I think you have insidious agenda in doing so.

7am Arivu

A tamil movie is being made about bodhidharma and his visit to china — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.136.98 (talk) 00:37, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, 7aam Arivu, starring Suriya and Shruti Haasan directed by A. R. Murugadoss. Secret of success Talk to me 16:17, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The addition of this is unsourced, and without an appropriate reliable source to give this addition any weight, it doesn't belong in the article, per WP:IPC. However, if the IP editor that is inserting the information feels otherwise, please discuss here why it belongs in the article. Thank you. - SudoGhost 21:03, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of his various names in the lede

There is an anon who keeps on putting Bodhidharma's Tamil name into the lede. This is not necessary since it is already mentioned in the info box. The Zen patriarch is known the world over by many different names, so there is no reason to give preference to a certain one. I hope that the anon will come here to discuss the issue instead of re-adding it over and over again. This will naturally lead to the page being protected. That fact that they keep jumping IPs isn't very helpful either. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 15:26, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A newly established editor who added the Tamil name has left a message on my page that is related to this. Interested parties can view it here. My reply should establish why the Tamil name should not be added to the lede. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 14:03, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, because I will eventually archive my talk page, I have posted part of my reply here for posterity:

As I stated before, his Tamil name keeps on getting removed because he is known by so many names around the world. You stated that other Wikipedia articles include multiple names for other historical personages in an info box, but always post their native name in the lede. That's normally true if they are concretely known to have come from that area. However, there is not enough historical information to say he really did come from Southern India. Most of what is known about him comes from Chinese records, and none of them agree with each other. There are some historians who think he really didn't have anything to do with Chan Buddhism, and there are others who don't even think he was a historical person. I took the liberty of looking at some of the sources from the article which support his Tamil origin. The Bodhidharma Anthology (p. 2) says he was from East India. The Zen Sourcebook: Traditional Documents From China, Korea, and Japan (p. 9) says “Because accounts of Bodhidharma’s life and teaching were generally written some time after his life, they are historically questionable; a few scholars have even wondered if he existed at all.” The author then goes on to mention how “later accounts” say he was the son of a monarch in Southern India. The Zen Experience (chapter 1) presents the “Zen legend” that Bodhidharma came from southern India. It also states that he stayed in the Shaolin Temple, which is not a reliable story. The first source mentioning him actually setting foot in Shaolin is from the 8th century. This of course postdates him by hundreds of years. Across the Himalayan Gap: An Indian Quest for Understanding China (p. 188) says he was the son of a king of Kanchi. The author later says, “The historicity of Bodhidharma has been controversial. The first mention of Kanchi is in “The Record of the Transmission of the Lamp” compiled in 1002." Again, this posdates his supposed life by hundreds of years. It is evident from these sources that his origin has not truly been established.

--Ghostexorcist (talk) 14:10, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked at another of the sources cited as supporting his links to southern India. Inventing Hui-neng, the sixth Patriarch: Hagiography and biography in early Ch'an (p. 111) doesn't give any concrete support for a Kanchipuram origin. In fact, it doesn't even mention Kanchipuram on that page, nor is it mentioned in the rest of the book. It only just reviews what the various Chinese sources say about him: that he was either Persian and South Indian. Therefore, it is evident that these sources are not supporting the statements being made in the article. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 03:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There should be a section called "Legacy and depictions in popular culture" or something like "Film and Literature". Ben (talk) 21:44, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's too trivial to mention films on the main article. Feel free to create a sister article to be linked to. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 22:02, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from , 28 October 2011


Tonydass (talk) 08:26, 28 October 2011 (UTC) He belongs to Udayar Caste of moderntime.[reply]

 Question: Do you have a reliable source that shows this? - SudoGhost 13:25, 28 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In Telugu, its బోధిధర్మ and not something భోధిధర్మ written in the article. Someone with edit permissions, please change it. రహ్మానుద్దీన్ (talk) 17:25, 28 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit protected}} template. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 21:22, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from , 31 October 2011

I question the validity of some of the statements here and suspect that they have been included by the publicity department of a recent movie in Tamil. There's no proof that Bodhidharma was a Tamil prince. Some sources believe that he was from Kerala where the martial art 'Karali' supposed to be the origin of kung-fu, was invented. At the most, he could be South Indian, though some believe that Bodhidharma was born in the North.

Ashokscape (talk) 03:26, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done Please, if you want to improve the quality of the article, make an edit request propose an actual change to the page, with well sourced information. Zidanie5 (talk) 03:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from , 31 October 2011

Its states that he is from Nalanda University.

203.99.221.151 (talk) 05:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Quelle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F458297449