This template is one of several templates used to provide or request sources for articles.

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Out of curiosity why is the accessdate automatically wikilinked but not the date? -- Argash  |  talk  |  contribs  04:52, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good question that I've wonder as well. The only thing I can think of is if the full date is not available, like it's just the year, or month-year, something like that. I have found that adding the [[ ]]s works, but it would be nice if it did it automatically. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC))[reply]

{{editprotected}}

Could someone make the date= field auto wiki linked? -- Argash  |  talk  |  contribs  14:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No – please don't. This will break all the existing uses of this template. This proposal needs wider discussion as it affects all cite * templates and they should all be updated, if deemed necessary, with a bot fixing the broken links. → AA ^(talk) — 14:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm disabling the editprotected. Changes to the cite templates are made only when there is clear agreement. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fundamentally the date fields should allow variety, including the unlinked "October 2007". It would help, however,if all the links occurred in the parameter rather than the template, as it creates special cases that should/shouldn't be linked normally. Rich Farmbrough, 09:37 7 November 2007 (GMT).

I'm curious about why the template description says that the field must not be wikilinked. I thought wikilinking was the norm, based on MOS:SYL#Autoformatting_and_linking?—RJH (talk) 16:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because it is automatically formatted and wikilinked by the template :P -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 16:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a parameter for ISSNs? Lurker (said · done) 13:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ISSNs are only for books, but even Template:Cite book doesn't have it, so you might want to ask someone to include it on Template:Cite book here. DA PIE EATER (talk) 00:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, my mistake. Template:Cite book already has it. Since ISSNsare for electronic books, somewhere along the line, consensus(probably) included ISSN in cite book, not cite web. DA PIE EATER (talk) 01:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was just wondering why {{cite web}} should only be used for non-news sources. Doesn't {{cite news}} have very similar fields? Thanks, Drum guy (talk) 21:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree with you. I have used {{cite web}} for news sources. There is no need for {{cite news}}. I think the two templates should be merged. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 03:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reminder: url and title are mandatory fields in {{cite web}}. Not all news citations will have a url. {{cite web}} could be merged into {{cite news}}, but not the other way around, unless the url field in web citations was no longer mandatory. And that would be odd. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for replying :)

I think that before considering whether to merge (although it's good to consider it!), it would be brilliant to think about what's written on the template documentation. At the moment, it clearly, unarguably says that the template mustn't be used for citing news sources, and to use {{cite news}} for that. If we have consensus to change that, then I think that should be our first step :) ¡Muchas gracias, Drum guy (talk) 23:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)![reply]

Regardless of whether the use of _cite web_ is expanded to include news articles or not, the point made about "not all news citations will have a url" (I agree with this) puts a full-stop on the notion of deprecating _cite news_ ... a merger of the two would be counter productive. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I concur that "cite news" must not be deprecated. It's exactly the wrong direction to go. Professionally published news, on average, is a far better, more reliable source than mere web pages. The news template also contains more specific information (like pages) that are missing from the web template. The net result is that "cite news" conveys more serious weight to its cited sources, which is abetted by the fact that "cite web" is often used to paste in any old page found on the web, with no regard to the reliability of the publishers behind it. This is not a fatal error for "cite web" — we can, after all, aspire to be do better — but merging "news" into "web" is like merging a professional weekly paper into a tabloid. (Not that that probably hasn't been done, but we must avoid a similar travesty if we want to be taken seriously as an encyclopedia.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:12, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly agree about the comparative reliability of some news organs, but that derives from their name and reputation, not from the template used to cite them. Similarly, some web sites also are well known and reputable, e.g., Salon.com, The Register, heck, even in its own way The Onion. And on top of that, those who only read the artible don't know which template is being used, if any. RossPatterson (talk) 00:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Register is among those websites that it would be reasonable to use _cite news_ for rather than _cite web_. The distinction in using _cite news_ is one of journalistic standards, not the medium used to communicate the work. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So what can we say?

Are we saying that we can never use {{cite web}} for news sources, but if it's possible to use exactly the same fields but just change the word 'web' to 'news', can we add that in the template documentation? Are there more things (e.g. other necessary fields) that we need to know? Thanks, Drum guy (talk) 17:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite. For instance, the URL field is mandatory for _Cite web_ and one point above is that not all news items have associated URLs. There are other differences, but this is the first that comes to mind. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 13:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but can we add to the documentation that to cite a news source, all you have to do is change the word 'news' to 'web', and that, although there are differences, the same fields can be used? Drum guy (talk) 21:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If we were to depreciate {{cite news}}, I'm just asking if we could still use Toronto Star, Chicago Tribune, New York Post,etc. as a source?Note:I'm not POVing or COIing when I say those newspapers, those were the first newspapers to popinto my head, thats all.DA PIE EATER (talk) 01:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. In _cite news_, these would fit into the "work" field, which is also found in _cite web_. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:15, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) What made me write this was that I read the documentation and was slightly taken aback, as I've been using {{cite web}} for news sources for ages. I propose changing the first paragraph of the documentation from:

This template is used to cite non-news sources in Wikipedia articles. (See cite sources for general information about citations in Wikipedia articles and see {{cite news}} to learn about citing a news source). This template replaces deprecated template:web reference. It provides lower case parameters only.

to:

This template is used to cite online sources in Wikipedia articles. {{Cite news}} can also be used when citing a news source; for general information about citations in Wikipedia articles, see Wikipedia:cite sources. This template replaces deprecated template:web reference, and provides lower case parameters only.

Because

{{#time:Y-m-d|1935-09-15}}

evaluates to

1970-01-01

the template refuses to automatically wikilink all dates before 1970. This is problematic for material which originated before this date (e.g. historical documents) and were later put on the web. Shinobu (talk) 22:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed: "p". 1965-04-30..--Patrick (talk) 00:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just an FYI to everyone, this is a technical limitation and is further explained at Unix time. Gary King (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suspected it might have something to do with the Unix era. :-) Link to the diff for reference. Thanks for fixing! Shinobu (talk) 22:46, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In [1], why does the accessyear field not require a link (if it is linked, the "[[]]" appear in the text), while accessdaymonth does require linking? Thanks, –Outriggr § 01:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Accessdaymonth is used for non-wikilinked dates.

accessdate=2005-07-06 will yield a formatted, wikilinked date: 6 July 2005.

accessmonthday=July 6|accessyear=2005 will yield a non-formatted date, with only the year linked: July 6, 2005.

accessmonthday=[[July 6]]|accessyear=2005 will yield a formatted, wikilinked date: 6 July 2005, the same as when using accessdate.

By the way, I really don't understand why we would support having non-wikilinked dates here in the first place. It's just a crude way of overriding the user's settings, which strikes me as a very impolite thing to do, the message it conveys is approximately "my settings are better than yours, so I will force them upon you." I think we should either abandon accessmonthday or link it just like in the accessdate version. Shinobu (talk) 23:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If I follow you, I agree. This is very unintuitive and unexpected behaviour. Template parameter names should be as self-explanatory as possible; accessdaymonth vs accessmonthday, seriously?? It seems every time I find myself working with a date in a citation template, I have to make an informed guess about whether to link the field; and I'm usually wrong. I don't understand how wiki's most widely used citation templates end up this way. –Outriggr § 23:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, I misinterpreted; I thought one of those parameters linked and one didn't. (Although my point about explanatory naming is still kinda valid; who wouldn't expect access(day|month) to link, unless you deduced the reason that they are separate parameters, but since the reason they are separate seems poor, you wouldn't deduce it...) So I still agree with you – deprecate them. –Outriggr § 23:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've just tried to use WebCite to document references. For example this editin the Julian Lincoln Simon article. Is there a reason not to use WebCite on every web source you document? Maybe WebCite should have it's own parameter and always be included (automaticly if possible)? Nsaa (talk) 21:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the following help page ({{Reference help}}) for the Referensce section in articles:

Template:Reference help

Is this a good way of helping people adding the correct template and parameters? Nsaa (talk) 13:15, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

{{editprotected}}

The formatting of dates using accessdaymonth and accessmonthday violates the manual of style: They should look like this (when used with accessyear, which there is no situation that they should not be):

• 7 March 2008
• March 7, 2008

respectively

But actually look like this:

• 7 March, 2008
• March 7, 2008

This is wrong, and the incorrect comma in the first is hard-coded.

I have fixed the problem on temp-page {{cite web2}} – you may delete redirect that here that when you're done with it. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to the documentation (and how the template was until a few months ago), nothing should be wikilinked if accessdaymonth/accessmonthday is used. Just having the year linked is obviously wrong, as it is now, so I'm changing it back to how it was a few months ago. --- RockMFR 18:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to WP:MOSDATE the whole thing should be linked, as two halves. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I won't argue either way about the linking (because personally I believe the accessmonth(day) and accessyear parameters shouldn't exist), but I will suggest that if and when a change is made, {{cite web2}} be deleted and the only two articles that use it be changed to use this template, rather than creating a redirect. RossPatterson (talk) 15:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that we have an option for 'lk=on' and 'lk=off'. I think this would be an improvement over having to choose between accessdate and accessmonth. Lightmouse (talk) 18:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have created a test version at Template:Cite web/sandbox.

Lightmouse suggested "To make it simplest for users, it would be good if it can accept 'accessdate' as a parameter. For example, would it accept 'accessdate=2006-09-19' ?"

It is done at Template:Cite web/sandbox.

Gary King (talk) 18:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could you explain the full problem and solution you are proposing? What is that you want to change to accessdate and why? Renata (talk) 19:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, we should start from the top. Basically, there has been a push to allow editors to choose whether to link or not link dates in articles (linking dates has never been mandatory), especially when going through WP:FAC and WP:FLC where the standards are higher than usual. Now that some articles are choosing not to link dates, the only dates that are still linked are the dates and access dates in citation templates, primarily {{cite web}} since that's the one that is usually used the most. I first suggested to use accessmonthday and accessyear to have unlinked accessdates, but stemming from User_talk:Tony1#Removing_excessive_links, if we just add a lk=off option, then everything else could stay the same. Gary King (talk) 20:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly support the migration from enforced to optional autoformatting; indeed, it is required to match the fact that for some time now, date autoformatting has been optional in the main text of our articles. (This is a slight correction to Gary's point that autoformatting has never been mandatory; it was until last year.) TONY (talk) 02:35, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me, but aren’t the above-mentioned efforts on autoformatting of dates yet another case where slick, user-sensitive formatting will only work for A) registered editors, B) who’ve taken the time to set their user prefs? If so, unregistered I.P. users—the vast majority of readers—would see what? Someone, please explain as I don’t know. If unregistered users see dates that only appear in one form or are inferior to well-thought-out, fixed-text dates (where due consideration is given to the subject and readership), then I don’t see the point of the effort here. I’m actually quite surprised that the current autoformatting of dates (and the accompanying ‘over’-linking) was created only for the benefit of registered editors. Is there a way to tap into Wikipedia’s awareness of the reader’s I.P. address (country of origin)? Many Web sites routinely rely on automated capture of users’ I.P. address (and even such minutia as their O.S.).

Frankly, if we actually were to gain access to an I.P.-sensitive function that could be accessed in magic words and templates, I’d just as soon see it first used for something more compelling than date formats. For instance, {{dialect|color|colour}} would be read as “color” in the U.S., and as “colour” in England/Australia/etc. It wouldn’t have to be “smart” at all. Simply by looking to the readers’ I.P. address, {{dialect|trunk|boot}} would be read as “the border patrol agents discovered the bomb upon opening the trunk” for Americans, and as “the border patrol agents discovered the bomb upon opening the boot” for others. Now that, would be something I’d really like. Greg L (talk) 20:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, this discussion is better suited for MOS:DATE. Secondly, the discussion above is trying to solve precisely this. Currently, when dates are linked in date and accessdate fields, they appear as 2008-01-01 for unregistered users. The suggestion given above would format them as January 1, 2008 for all users. Gary King (talk) 20:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Funny, I was alerted to this issue by Tony on my talk page, directing me to User_talk:Tony1#Removing_excessive_links, where I saw that you had moved it to User_talk:Lightmouse#User_talk:Tony1.23Removing_excessive_links, where Lightmouse had moved it to here. This issue is clearly an adopted bastard child. I’m done. Goodbye. Greg L (talk) 20:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This section's discussion and the one above (and the ones you linked) tackle different issues. The one I started on Tony's page was to primarily let him know that there was a way to show unlinked dates using cite web, then Lightmouse suggested that a simpler method be created. Gary King (talk) 20:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• OK. Autoformatting of dates using {cite web}: So… Why bother if the vast majority of readers (non-registered, regular folk) just see “January 1, 2008”? Is it so we registered editors are privileged Eloi and most every other reader are subterranean Morlocks? I submit that any forum where autoformatting of dates is being discussed is a valid one for someone to point out that end product only really benefits an elite club: us. We’re just all patting ourselves on the back here if we’re making tools that only we can enjoy; we might as well just hard-code “January 1, 2008”. Did any of my above post not make that point clear? If we’re going to be autoformatting dates, make it work for regular readers or forget it. Greg L (talk) 20:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? This effort is so that most users see "January 1, 2008" and NOT "2008-01-01", which is what they see right now. Gary King (talk) 20:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I’m saying that if the vast majority of users (non-registered, plain-folk readers) see “January 1, 2008”, then we might as well simply type January 1, 2008 and shouldn’t be pretending we’re doing any good with {cite web} and [[1 January]] [[2008]]. We shouldn’t bother with any tool that only benefits us registered editors. Why?

  Because when registered American editors see “January 1, 2008” and European registered editors see “1 January 2008”, we editors—especially the European ones who are content with the dates they see—are going to loose track that most everyone else in Europe sees American-style dates. I’m American but can imagine that in an article like French Revolution, an English-speaking European reader (there are many) would find “June 10, 1789” just as awkward as would an American seeing “4 July”. Further, new editors who aren’t highly familiar with the idiosyncrasies of these tools will simply copy them from other articles without being aware of their limitations.

  Again: If we’re going to be autoformatting dates, make it work for regular readers or forget it. Greg L (talk) 21:33, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Greg, the idea is to migrate the template from enforced linking of dates to an optional linking where an editor makes a deliberate choice. You will see other discusssions on this topic more than once on this page. I think systematic mandatory linking dates is wrong and it conflicts with guidance elsewhere. I think it is a fairly easy transition to turn mandatory linking into optional linking. However, if you make a pitch here that the template code should be updated to end date links, then you will not find an objection from me. Lightmouse (talk) 23:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Greg, I think I'd have gone for a simpler, less ambitious tweaking of cite web at this stage, to match what is a gradually evolving realisation by WP's editors that date autoformatting in their main text is not mandatory and has a number of serious disadvantages. In view of the unlikelihood of technical action by WikiMedia to fix the issues in their patch, it would be better to allow editors to manually check through the date formatting of their reference lists as they do now for punctuation, capitalisation and the order of the elements. It's urgent, in fact, that we force the issue on checking raw formatting, since it's concealed from us, the very people who are charged with making it consistent. The fact that almost all of our readers (i.e., those who are unregistered) see "2008-01-01" in cite web is shocking revelation and additional reason to add the switch-of-autoformatting function.

Right now, we need consensus that this function be inserted. Anyone care to provide feedback? TONY (talk) 02:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it shocking to see "2008-01-01"? What's wrong with that? Renata (talk) 06:18, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I don’t find it shocking. But I do find it quite unattractive and ambiguous. It’s not a common format in the U.S. (I don’t know about Europe) and many readers have to stare at it to figure out that it’s likely year-month-day. Only 60 percent of the time (after the 12th day of the month, e.g. 2008-01-13) does it become absolutely unambiguous and easier to parse. It’s much more attractive and functional to have dates where the month is spelled out (either fully or abbreviated). Greg L (talk) 20:07, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• The biggest problem with this format is that unlike both 1 Jan 2008 and Jan 1, 2008, it is not unambiguous for someone who is unfamiliar with it. Christopher Parham (talk) 17:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I’m not up-to-speed enough on the technical issues and intricacies being discussed to be able to make a meaningful contribution on such details; that should be left to you experts. But I’m pleased to hear that there is an evolving sensitivity to the experience of unregistered (most) readers and your efforts are being directed in that direction. As for updating template code to end date links, where do I sign up? Greg L (talk) 06:03, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear colleagues—I've posted a note with Davidruben, who made the most recent change to the code of cite web, asking for his agreement to implement the change. TONY (talk) 11:06, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I'm going to be really dense here, the suggested coding change[2] is:

{{#if: {{{archivedate|}}}
  |  Archived from [{{{url}}} the original] on [[{{{archivedate}}}]].
}}{{#if: {{{doi|}}} 
  |  [[Digital object identifier|DOI]]:[http://dx.doi.org/{{{doi|{{{doilabel|}}}}}} {{{doi}}}].
}}{{#if: {{{accessdate|}}}
  |  Retrieved on [[{{{accessdate}}}]]{{#if: {{{accessyear|}}} | , [[{{{accessyear}}}]] }}.
}}{{#if: {{{accessmonthday|}}}
  |  Retrieved on {{{accessmonthday}}}{{#if: {{{accessyear|}}} | , {{{accessyear}}} }}.
}}{{#if: {{{accessdaymonth|}}}
  |  Retrieved on {{{accessdaymonth}}}{{#if: {{{accessyear|}}} |  {{{accessyear}}} }}.
}}

to this:

{{#if: {{{archivedate|}}}
  |  Archived from [{{{url}}} the original] on [[{{{archivedate}}}]].
}}{{#if: {{{doi|}}} 
  |  [[Digital object identifier|DOI]]:[http://dx.doi.org/{{{doi|{{{doilabel|}}}}}} {{{doi}}}].
}}{{#if: {{{accessdate|}}}
  |  Retrieved on {{#ifeq: {{{lk}}} | off | {{#time: F j, Y | {{{accessdate}}}}} | [[{{{accessdate}}}]] }}{{#if: {{{accessyear|}}} | , [[{{{accessyear}}}]] }}.
}}{{#if: {{{accessmonthday|}}}
  |  Retrieved on {{{accessmonthday}}}{{#if: {{{accessyear|}}} | , {{{accessyear}}} }}.
}}{{#if: {{{accessdaymonth|}}}
  |  Retrieved on {{{accessdaymonth}}}{{#if: {{{accessyear|}}} |  {{{accessyear}}} }}.
}}

I get the concept of the [[{{{accessdate}}}]] generates a style of date based upon user preference (where a registered used has so chosen), but where the editor sets lk to "off" you are going to force american dates on everyone else.

I would understand if editors sought to force the relevant style for the specific location of the subject matter of the article, hence US subjects might use American dates and articles on UK used European style of dates (so perhaps options of lk being set to "off-Am" for American style or "off" for rest of the world), but the above proposed use of lk forces US-centric editing and seems, on initial reading of this proposal, as daft. As I said, maybe I'm just being dense, so do please enlighten me :-) David Ruben ^Talk 23:01, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is a good point, and something that I have been thinking about. One alternative could be to include a setting for "format=us" and "format=uk" for different date formats. I would prefer a preset date format like =us and =uk rather than requiring a date format specified every time this template is used (like format=m d, y), for shorthand purposes and also so there isn't one template used in an article that is accidentally using a different format from the other templates used in the same article. Gary King (talk) 23:05, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As Calendar date#Date format indicates "d m y" neither just UK nor European, "m d, y" mostly but not exculsively used by US, and Asian coutries generally "y m d" (repectively "Little-endian", "middle-endian" and "big-endian" - see Endianness); but clearly "le", "me" & "be" as abreviations would confuse everyone. As usage seems (at least for English language contries) to follow American or British usage (akin "AmE" and "BrE"), perhaps selected options should be formats being "=Am" and "=Br", with "=As" for asian ? Alternatively use "little", "middle" and "big" (almost confuse everyone). Simplist might be to specify precisely what one means with "dmy", "mdy" or "ymd" being the options ?David Ruben ^Talk 00:13, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds good to me. Gary King (talk) 00:15, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok re how to implement then, but as for proposal itself, how does this maintain or improve compatability with the other citation templates of {{citation}}, {{cite journal}} etc ? (Currently move to at least coordinate feature development , there being no consensus to merge the cite xxx to just citation) David Ruben ^Talk 00:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Those templates don't automatically wikilink dates. Only cite web requires that accessdate be YYYY-MM-DD, otherwise it will wikilink anyways. Gary King (talk) 00:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm a bit dumb about these programming things: I do hope that there will be a simple "lk on / lk off" facility. Apart from all else, allowing editors to remove the autoformatting function will force them check the consistency of the raw formatting, which, I presume, is what almost all (non-logged-in) readers see. If this can be achieved as simply as possible (from users' perspective), that would be just great. TONY (talk) 08:58, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  "On" & "off" is problematic - what format will be used if "Off". As above discussions considered, the "January 4, 2004" American style is a minority-style worldwide :-) The relevant style should mirror general language issues (AmE vs BrE) in that correct for subject matter of article (hence "American Road Signs" is clearly going to use "color" vs "colour", but the opposite for say "British Paintings"), but where an article not country specific then in the style of the first major edit/creation of the article (ie whoever edits first). As there seems no standardised terms for date styles that anyone has heard of (i.e. "little-endian" does not count as widely known), then options are as set out above of:

  1. as Am/Br/As - but without looking it up, who knows what standard Asian date layout is ?
  2. as dmy/mdy/ymd - which at least is explicit in the resulting outcome

  I going to suggest we go for the latter option. Remember this is for editors to see, not the general reader, and then only for editors who wish to start forcing a specific date style (so only for a little step of a learning curve needed). I'll code this up when I have a quiet moment in next day or two :-) David Ruben ^Talk 12:38, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why are we talking about forcing any date style on citations in articles? Although there's a long-standing consensus to present some general formatting (like spelling) in the style of the subject's predominant style of English, I was under the impression that we've pretty much established that all full dates and month-day fragments should be set to use a wiki-linked style that allows readers to choose how they're represented. Is this just about date fragments like "July 7-8" that MediaWiki can't format flexibly? Or is this just another pass at trying to to force a particular style when readers can otherwise choose what they're comfortable with? (As an American who uses military date formatting — dd mmm (yy)yy — for correspondence, I take exception to considering these things "American" or "British", and firmly believe we shouldn't push any formatting on people not mandated by software limitations. Spelling is a basic text problem that needs this kind of localization/localisation. The date problem is already solved.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 14:04, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

David (and Jeff, e.c.), I apologise for having neglected to provide you with the essential background information. MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting and now prescribes rules for the raw formatting). These changes were intruduced last year. The rules for which formattings are acceptable in which articles came first, and apply to formattings with and without autoformatting (since almost all readers see main-text autoformatted text in the original, raw format that is concealed from us as logged-in WPians. This was seen as years overdue, and was sparked by complaints at WP:FAC that when reviewers checked what outsiders see (via edit windows), they commonly found inconsistencies within articles, and such anomalies as Euro formatting in US-related articles and vice versa.

Critically for this issue here, only two formats are recognised as standard in MOSNUM: the US and the British/Australian (aka Euro): m d, y and d m y. I think we're keen that these not be blue-linked in cite web, so that editors would simply type in the date manually. If you know how to arrange for the date to be autoformatted without the blue and the underlining, through the choice of "US" or "UK", that would be acceptable, I think. But I think manual keying in, as people do in the main text, is probably the best option.

The move to optional autoformatting has arisen from widespread discontent with WikiMedia's rather dysfunctional, inflexible system, not least of which are that it's exclusive to logged-on WPians, often clutters high-value links, and is often incorrectly used by editors, resulting in broken formats.

It has become clearer over the past few weeks, as people have thought through the larger situation, that the use of cite web makes all dates at the bottom of an article a sea of formatted or unformatted blue (depending on whether you're a WPian or an outside reader), and is inconsistent with the main text of an article where editors have decided not to use date autoformatting.

This is why Greg, Gary and I have come here (from MOSNUM) to ask that cite web be modified to allow such editors the freedom of choice in their citations lists. No one is forcing any change on anyone: we just wish this template to match the consensus for choice WRT main text in articles. TONY (talk) 14:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Tony and everyone. It's my responsibility to keep on top of that stuff, not yours to keep me informed. My (very) bad. I have to agree that the blue-sea look is less than pleasant. Carry on. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 15:07, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS Just in case an illustration is required, this is an FA candidate after and before dates were de-autoformatted. Here, month/day are mostly involved. In the "after" version, I scroll down to see the opposite standard format used in the citations from the US form in the main article. TONY (talk) 14:21, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Coded here: Template:Cite web/sandbox. Please comment. I used "lk" for the date format field but perhaps something else is more appropriate? I was going to use "fmt" but then figured it would be difficult to remember for most people, and then thought about using "format" but then remembered that that was already used for the format of the reference (i.e. PDF, HTML). Gary King (talk) 17:00, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks quite good, but a couple of queries on the above sandbox:

1. I'm not aware that the YMD format is accepted on Wikipedia: WP:DATE lists International, American and ISO (for occasional use), so I would suggest that the third option use ISO format (I imagine that this wouldn't be used much, but as WP:DATE allows it...)
2. If a cite web is set to use lk=mdy (American), will my user date preference for International format still override this (it wouldn't matter whether the date ended up wikilinked or not)? If not, we are breaking existing functionality, which would be a real issue for me.
3. (probably obvious to everybody else) Query: I assume then that we would accept to use ISO format for raw dates in cite web, and to have the option of the lk= field to change the markup. If this is the case, we would need to agree to slightly change WP:DATE to say that this meets the requirement for 'consistent raw date formatting' in articles. I assume this has been implicitly agreed by the users above? Thanks Rjwilmsi 17:59, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As with spelling of colour/color, as long as the date format is unambiguous I do not care. Most Wikipedia readers see dates without any autoformatting. In this case, that means ISO8601 format is already the default. I thought that was a rather neat solution for the particular circumstances of cite web (compact, somewhat technical data, no need to adapt to article region or reference region). I suggest that we do not change the default and where 'lk=' sequence is not specified or is set to 'off', the existing raw text is not subject to any reformatting. Lightmouse (talk) 18:17, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) The three formats I coded in are the three that are also options as user preferences; I think WP:DATE allows all three? We aren't breaking existing functionality if user preferences do not override the date formats in an article. Current MOS dictates that as long as date formats are consistent within an article, then it is acceptable. I'm not quite sure on what you mean in your third point, but as I said, MOS says that as long as date formats are consistent in an article, then that is acceptable. They don't have to be linked, also; linking dates was only to auto-format them, but now that MOS has changed, linking dates is not a requirement anymore.

The default has not been changed. I added another example to the sandbox page, please check it. Gary King (talk) 18:22, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the default (i.e. lk= not present or invalid) should not be changed. Scrap point 1 then. Now, point 2 is important for me: at the moment an ISO date in a cite web field is displayed as International per my user date preference. If for a particular reference, a user added lk=mdy (American), I understand the date would not be linked. That's fine, but would it display to me as American or International? If it's going to force American on me, that's an issue for me (I am aware this wouldn't break MOS consistency rules in itself). Point 3 was a minor one, but WP:DATE says "underlying formats need to be checked for consistency in the edit box", so I think we would need to agree to relax that to say it's okay if the markup (for non-logged in users) can override it. Thanks Rjwilmsi 18:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the second point, yes, American format would be forced on you. This has been discussed before, especially at MOS where most of the discussions have taken place. Regarding the third point, I think I get what you're saying; however, I don't know if it needs some rewording, considering dates are already entered in YYYY-MM-DD format for all citation templates. Gary King (talk) 18:46, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, thanks for clarifying. I'm not sure I would like having the date format forced upon me, as currently I can choose. However, MOS discussion was mostly against me and there are clearly advantages to introducing this lk= field, from which the majority of page viewers (not logged in ones) will benefit, so it seems I may have to lose some freedom for the benefit of the masses...medals in the post please ;)

If this goes ahead I have a script I could easily modify to add lk= fields and convert all non-ISO dates in the template date fields to ISO format, which I could use to edit a list/category of pages upon request (e.g. I could imagine users would want the American presidents category converted to lk=mdy). Thanks Rjwilmsi 18:59, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Except that the lk= field should only be added to articles that already have all dates unlinked; from my experience, most articles have dates linked, understandably, because that has been the norm for years and when new editors see dates linked in one article, they do it to others. I think if and when this change goes through, effort should be concentrated to push for this change in FACs, something I'm sure people including Tony will do. I have about 75 Good Article reviews and plan to continue reviewing them, so I could also suggest that people remove links from dates and instead use lk=. Gary King (talk) 19:12, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But I thought users would want to add the appropriate lk= fields in lots of articles so that date=/accessdate= ISO dates would then display as unlinked American or International for non-logged in users, as opposed to linked ISO dates at the moment. In the case of accessdate= in cite web, it can't be used without providing a linked date as markup, so how do FACs get round that? Surely they all need this change to be able to? Probably we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves though. Rjwilmsi 19:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hold on, hold on. First of all, I am assuming that you are referring to the ugliness of "2008-01-01" (pretend this is blue-linked) to most visitors; people unanimously agree that this is ugly. But, they need to still be linked if other dates in a specific article are linked. If you unlink all dates in an article, then lk= can be used for {{cite web}}. I'm not sure what you mean about accessdate requiring a linked date; accessdate is used like "accessdate=2008-01-01"; it will stay the same. lk= changes that accordingly, per the sandbox example. "A bit ahead of ourselves" would be changing a lot of articles at once ;) Again, it's best if we focus on FACs (and I can help with GANs), first. Gary King (talk) 19:38, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I agree the way accessdate will be typed in won't change. My example was this: a FAC uses a cite web template, and has an accessdate. The accessdate field requires an unlinked ISO date (e.g. {{cite web | url=http://www.a.com | accessdate=2008-01-01 | title=Hello }}. When displayed, the accessdate appears as a wikilinked date (e.g. "Hello". Retrieved 2008-01-01.). For users who aren't logged in, it displays as a wikilinked ISO date, and most agree the ISO date format is not very user-friendly. So, 'lk=' isn't available yet, what do FACs do to be user-friendly? It must be inevitable that if they use cite web and accessdate, the result is a wililinked ISO date for the general public. Therefore I assumed there would be a large takeup of the lk field, if introduced.

And please don't worry, I'm not going to add it to 50,000 articles the day after it's introduced ;) Rjwilmsi 19:58, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

← Most of the FACs do indeed have wikilinked ISO dates at the moment, including my own. lk= will certainly be in highest demand in FAC moreso than anywhere else on Wikipedia. Gary King (talk) 20:01, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, that's what I thought. Then the change looks good to me – I will accept a loss of user date preference for these dates as it will benefit the majority of page viewers in allowing a page's dates to be displayed consistently within the page. Not perfect, but what is? Rjwilmsi 20:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

However, when the date is forced appropriately, like American dates for American President biographies, I think that's acceptable eh? :p I think later on, the more common argument will be which date format to use in each article on an article-by-article basis (on their respective talk pages), once user preferences no longer work in a large number of articles. Gary King (talk) 20:20, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, on balance. I had thought to myself that the best solution was for the mediawiki software to allow a new per-page parameter, and to format that page's dates in either the American or International format according to the parameter's value, which would be overriden by any user date preference. That will remain a pipe dream; the above change is about as close to it as we can get I suppose. And yes, we will be opening up a new can of worms! I would suggest that WP:ENGVAR/WP:DATE will need to be updated in anticipation of the change to provide rules for the correct date format (American vs International) choice for articles. Rjwilmsi 20:27, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Probably will not happen in the near future, for a number of reasons. You're basically talking about a variable setting. MediaWiki wiki markup does not support variables that only exist on a single page, as far as I know. If it did, then someone could easily hide a variable on a page and other editors would be wondering why the dates they input change when it is saved. Also, there needs to be a way for pages to know that some text is actually a date, besides using regular expressions, such as formatting dates like #2008-01-01# or something. Gary King (talk) 20:46, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I had realised these things, and totally agree with your point. I'm now in favour of the proposed solution for cite web (consistency for the general public beats my user date preference), so am happy to end discussion of wider issues. Over to others for any other comments. Rjwilmsi 20:56, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about {{DEFAULTSORT}}, something like {{DEFAULTDATE}} wouldn't be so different. As for trying to force your new "lk" parameter on any class of articles, IMO that's just more WP:CREEP and another thing for people to fight over. I don't look forward to having to revert if/when people try to implement these changes across Wikipedia without discussion on each affected article. Anomie⚔ 21:43, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It has and always will be up to FAC nominators to decide what they want to do with their article. Gary King (talk) 22:01, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the link got hidden beneath the discussion above. Again, here it is my original message:

Coded here: Template:Cite web/sandbox. Please comment. I used "lk" for the date format field but perhaps something else is more appropriate? I was going to use "fmt" but then figured it would be difficult to remember for most people, and then thought about using "format" but then remembered that that was already used for the format of the reference (i.e. PDF, HTML).

Gary King (talk) 21:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for trialling the coding.

• Ifeq is ugly for multiple options and leads to hard-to-maintain multiple levels of nesting conditions here. I'll have a try at recoding it.
• As for ymd, according to relevant wikipedia article that is universal style in most Asian countries. Whilst I'ld love all dates in British style, probably wrong to force American or British styles on say articles about Japan ? I've no strong views on this, but should be considered.
• We're discussing its effect on the date & accessdate; but cite web also has a archivedate parameter to consider too. The example only allowed user preference to take priority for date, whilst for accessdate, the coding forced lk style even if user has set a preference.
• "lk" is horrible as a parameter name and does not convay its purpose unless an editor was to look up this template's documentatoin . We're discussing its effect on the date & accessdate; but cite web also has a archivedate parameter to consider too. Can I suggest we call it "datestyle" ("dateformat" risks being confused with file format of the "format" parameter). David Ruben ^Talk 22:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The example only allowed user preference to take priority for date: does that mean it's possible to make this change, but still let an individual user date preference overrule it (for date, accessdate and archivedate)? I would like this if it's possible. BTW, the sandbox seems to be slightly broken as the 'retrieved on' bit for the accessdate is missing, so I can't properly evaluate the examples. Thanks Rjwilmsi 23:13, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in process of trying to allow this for all variables. Currently struggling a bit with excess closing "}}", so hold on looking at Template:Cite web/sandbox for a few minutes :-) David Ruben ^Talk 00:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Failure :-( I fixed most of coding, but fails to show wikilinked dates if datestyle not set, i.e. as 2008-01-01 -Arrrgh ! Unless anyone can fix the sandbox code, I'm asking a template guru Davidgothberg to help out :-) David Ruben ^Talk 01:35, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I think problem is that apparently one can not use #ifeq: to detect a user's preference (and hence not possible to test if wikified output is the default unset-preference of ISO YYYY-MM-DD or some set user preference) according to meta help - meta:Help:Date_formatting_and_linking#Accessibility of date preference for branching. This is because date formating is rendered after the parser fuction is processed. So unless someone clever spots a flaw in my testing, metatemplate ({{Date style}} works in its own document page but not as a called template within another, ifeq not able detect a format display of yyyy mm-dd) then we have limited coding options:

1. A single parameter, say, datelink, which is either unspecified or blank, else takes single value of "off".
   • This shows all dates with code {{{date|}}} eg 2007-10-23, rather than current wikified values using code [[{{{date|}}}]] eg 2007-10-23 which shows as YYYY-MM-DD for those who do not have a date preference set but otherwise user selected preference.
   • Horrible downside to this is that if this is set to "off" then whilst any style of dates may be used within the relevant parameters (date, archivedate, accessdate) as no attempt is made to wikilink, there is no hope ever of showing dates in a user's prefered style (as later wikifying other date-styles does not work, eg 23 October 2007 is a redlink). Furthermore if there is ever any change in policy to show a single date style or return to wikified dates, an editor-entered freestyle of date can not be recovered back into ISO format
2. Parameter datestyle which if blank gives current de facto wikilinked date (ie YYYY-MM-DD for all but those who have specified a date preference). Otherwise as a fixed (ie user preference is ignored) unlinked "dmy", "mdy" or "ymd" format.
   • This is my preference as it still requires the relevant parameters (date, archivedate, accessdate) to be entered into the template in a single standard ISO YYYY-MM-DD format which can be machine read, or used to show user preference if this software feature later becomes available (or say if a later change in wikipedia policy say requires all dates to be again wikified)
   • This is the version on display currently at template:cite web/sandbox (historically this).
3. As previous option (3) but with the additional option of "off" to show dates as unformated freetext however the date, archivedate, accessdate parameters are entered.
   • A bad option as per option (1) of a free-for-all which prevents ever recovering back fixed styles or user-set preferences
4. the initial proposal at the start of this thread (above) of datestyle blank giving the current de facto wikified dates for all. Then if specified as dmy/mdy/ymd then still shown in user preference if this has been set, else as these fixed formats... seems impossible to code currently (we can't test for presence of a user preference or not)

I therefore present option 2 as allowing editors to show dates within cite_web in a fixed style which can be later adjusted according to any later policy changes. I'll implement this provided consensus remains happy that for the minority who have a set a date-preference, this may be ignored where an editor defines a datestyle parameter in this template...

Finally as it would be nice to have the cite templates remain consistant, should such a similar option be given to the date/accessdate parameters of other cite XXX templates ? David Ruben ^Talk 19:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vote: Option two. Good work. Option two is the best in an imperfect world. As a user with a date preference, I am happy for this to be overridden if it allows an article to present all its dates to all users in the same format, as appropriate to the article's subject. Also, I've checked and invalid dates display with a nice big red error, so it will be clear to editors when an invalid date has been given. When implemented this should be available to all fields requiring a full date in all cite templates to allow consistency (since it defaults to off, i.e. no change, I don't see how this would create any problems). Rjwilmsi 19:43, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any way to do this on a per-article basis rather than having to put the parameter in every reference? --Gerry Ashton (talk) 20:05, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One of the side effects of date linking in citation templates is that typos leading to date errors (invalid dates), which are common when one is entering citation data, show up in red. If dates are delinked, errors will no longer show in red. Is there a way the coding can check for valid dates? I'm concerned that we not lose a built-in mechanism we have now that detects errors when publication dates are typed in—an important part of maintaining WP:V. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure we can implement this. Will be done soon. I will most likely just make it red link if it is inputted incorrectly as I think that's the best way to make it obvious. Gary King (talk) 06:22, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Forgive my ignorance, but isn't this just bringing out of the woodwork glitches that should be cleared up anyway? Do those typos show up for non-logged-in readers? TONY (talk) 07:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If this helps, there are guidelines at MOSNUM for which format-style should be used in which article. They resemble our highly successful ENGVAR policy, with some important differences, of course. TONY (talk) 07:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

TONY is right that incorrectly formatted dates is an issue whether the date is wikilinked or not e.g. neither '[[1st Nov.]]' or '1st Nov.' are valid dates on Wikipedia (except in quotes...). However, wikilinking will often produce redlinks (for everybody), which helps to highlight the error. Therefore it might be useful to keep this when the 'datestyle=' is implemented.

I am currently working on dates in citation templates (and no, that doesn't just mean wikilinking them all!) and have already identified a large number of errors, and have started fixing them. If anybody knows of any common errors, contact me and I'll look into them. Rjwilmsi 11:10, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tony, the point is for the typos to show for Wiki editors who correct them (the person who entered the citation will see the red, or they'll show up on review). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:18, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Cite web" doesn't put the article title in quotation marks while "cite news" and "cite journal" do. Please add quotation marks to the template for consistency. Thanks. --Phenylalanine (talk) 12:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Done per this edit David Ruben ^Talk 22:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any chance that we can move the quotation marks in the title itself. The way it currently looks ("Wikipedia") looks hard to understand and makes it look like bad code. However, if it looks like it is in the title itself ("Wikipedia"), it looks like it is part of the title, much easier to understand. — NuclearVacuum 17:04, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whilst I have no preference on this, all the other cite XXX templates currently include the link-box inside the quotes - see User:Smith609/Citation for comparisons. I'm open to them all being changed if there is cross-template consensus, else just makes for a clash of styles in articles.

Such proposals that might affect all cite XXX need, IMHO, to be in a centralised area - would people be happy for say Template talk:citation to act as central location for such discussions, agreements and then implementations ?

If the backlog of ideas on the talk:cite_XXX pages can have their straw polls and be cleared as support/rejected, then I'm tempted to suggest they all become redirects to Template talk:citation where ideas such as this, that if felt to be a good case in one template then a good case for all cite_XXX, need only come up the once ? David Ruben ^Talk 18:22, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I don't like quotes inside the URL, though, as technically it isn't part of the title. Gary King (talk) 18:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The only reason I ask this is because of the arrow on the side of the link. What is with this arrow? Well either way, this arrow moves the quotation mark far enough from the title, that it looks improper and "dirty". When it is put into the title itself, it looks cleaner. Also, all titles never have quotation marks in it (it is always apostrophes). And also, if this is a good idea, it could be implemented in all the cite templates. Take a look at the full explanations below. — NuclearVacuum 15:40, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• "Wikipedia" This is the way it looks now. As you can see, the "arrow" on the side of the url moves the quotation mark in just the manner that it looks dirty.
• "Wikipedia" When the quotation marks are put into the link, it looks cleaner, the quotation marks are not moved (on a count of the arrow), and what are the odds of finding an article title with quotation marks (which can easily be moved to the proper apostrophes).

In response to your question about what the arrow is for, it's to indicate that these are external links. Gary King (talk) 17:09, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I had a felling that's what that was for. On that note, it still is obstructing the quotation marks to the point that the marks look to be unrelated to the title (even hidden by the arrow). — NuclearVacuum 20:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Should the language, when specified, be bolded to match the style of Template:Language icon? --Drum guy (talk) 15:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No - other cite XXX nor {{citation}} template do this, so either do for all, or for none. Currently moves to standardise as much as possible across these templates, tehn need to merge talk-page discussions to one area for these templates. David Ruben ^Talk 22:30, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A suggestion comparing this to the other cite XXX templates:

• {{cite web}} has pages details after the "work" parameter and before the publisher, but that is out of keeping with cite journal, cite news, cite book and citation templates which all have journal/publisher before the pages. David Ruben ^Talk 03:31, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• {{cite web}} & {{cite news}} place after the title "(format) (in language)", whilst {{cite journal}} & {{citation}} order these two as "(in language) (format)" - which is better ? David Ruben ^Talk 03:39, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer "(format) (in language)" Rjwilmsi 00:29, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Me too Gary King (talk) 00:32, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(until cite template talk pages merged into one) needs support/consensus over at cite journal & citation to make them change to this (ie both if they are to move to a common standard and move to what I agree reads as better English)David Ruben ^Talk 01:31, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should have posted this at each template talk page but with links to the discussion at Template_talk:Citation#Standardising_with_other_templates :) Gary King (talk) 01:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With hindsight, true :-) David Ruben ^Talk 02:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]