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To my knowledge Micheal Savage has never been anything other than a guest on Fox News. By quoting Savage it makes it seem like he is a Fox News employee. As Far as I can remember his only tv show was on MSNBC not Fox. The part about Savage should be taken out of the page as it is misleading. Furthermore the entire Anti-Arab section seems to be very close to sensationalism as the only cites are simlar to quotes you could find from just about any network news or comedy, as well as any print media especially in editorials. If there was more information and proof of this so called anti-arab viewpoint it should be added in but as it stands the entire section should be omitted as unfounded.

FTScottsdale 06:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree and have removed it. For one thing, to quote individuals from FNC who voice their personal opinion (as O'Reilly often does) is not fair to FNC. You are right about Savage, so that is even less fair. Arzel 14:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, writting an encyclopedic article about FNC is not about being "fair to FNC", it's about providing interesting and important verifiable information to the reader, irrespective of how flattering or unflattering it is.

Secondly, presenting "individuals from FNC who voice their personal opinion", esp. on a regular basis, is important because it is representative of the content and nature of the channel, which is a main topic of the article. The channel itself has no qualms about listing its program schedule - even advertising its shows. As an encyclopedia entry, the article should be equally -- if not more -- impartial.

Thirdly, these are individuals that the t.v. channel consciously and deliberately chooses to present to the viewer. They know full well their views and opinions and choose to present those views to the public. That is an executive decision made by the management of the company and that decision is noteworthy.

And finally, they are all political radicals; extremists and are presented on the channel on almost a daily basis -- and that alone merits mention in an article. Not just small mention, either - but substantial mention. No other channel does that.

If we are to leave out information about notable individuals from FNC who voice their personal opinion, such as Bill O'Reilly who has a show on Fox News, then we should leave out their claim of being "fair and balanced", too. Having a news station's characterization of itself without providing any substantial information about its content that is relevant to that characterization is like having a topic sentence without the accompanying paragraph. Kevin Baas^talk 21:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, articles have to be written in a neutral tone.

Secondly, Bill O'Reilly is not a newscaster on FNC. He has a show which represents his opinions, as such they may not reflect the beliefs of FNC. It would be like saying MSNBC thinks Bush should be impeached or resign because Keith Olbermann makes that statement almost nightly.

Thirdly, FNC like CNN and MSNBC present programming which people want to watch, much of which is opinion based. As a result they choose which will make them the most money in advertising.

Fourtly, this is your opinion, what makes them different then the other cable news networks? I would hardly call O'Reilly extremist when both the extreme left and the extreme right dislike him....is it possible to be extremely in the middle? Furthermore, if by your characterization that they "all political radicals; extremists and are presented on the channel on almost a daily basis", then that would imply that both the right and the left presented are extremist, thus validating the claim of fair and balanced (giving both sides a platform).

Finally, if exists research that says FNC is biased against the mid-east through their reporting, then that is a valid criticism, but to say that FNC is biased because O'Reilly makes stupid opinion statements (which change from week to week depending on how things are going) is not neutral. Arzel 23:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1. Neutral tone does not mean no negative information. Our encyclopedia is focused on accurate, verifiable information presented in a netural manner, not being "fair to FNC".
2. Bill O'Reilly is employed, promoted, and supported by the Fox News Channel. As such, the FNC organization is responsible for whatever content he presents. Don't fool yourself into believing that they have no say-so (or vested interest in) what Bill O. does -- they most certainly do. It's called editorial oversight and vicarious liability.
3. I don't understand your point (reference "thirdly").
4. Peer reviewed studies (ones that are specifically referenced in the article!) contradict your fourth point entirely.
5. Strawman argument.

Kevin makes very valid points, and his logic is convincing. Some tweaking of the language might be necessary, but unilaterally blanking the content, especially given the volatility of this article, is wholly inappropriate. Please notice the banners at the top of the talk page, which specifically requests that you discuss changes first. /Blaxthos 00:16, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(resolving edit conflict) To respond to your first point: I agree, generally, that articles have to be written I a neutral tone. I never disputed that, and it is unrelated to any of the points I made. That makes this point both a non sequitur and a straw man argument. Also, I believe it is misguided on account of an important subtlety: it is more important that articles actually be neutral than that they have a neutral "tone"; having semblance of neutral may in itself by misleading, and putting the priority on appearance rather than substance is misplaced. True and objective statements may appear to people with biased views to have a non-neutral "tone". What a person may call "tone" may in fact not be in any way intrinsic to the statement, but a reflection of the readers biases. We should not appeal to any bias, reader or writer. If the article were nothing but an appeal to the reader's bias, it wouldn't tell them anything they don't already believe, and therefore wouldn't inform the reader at all, and the purpose of an encyclopedia is to inform. It is more important that articles actually be neutral than that they have a neutral "tone". And in any case, your first point is both a non sequitur and a straw man argument.

As regards your second point: No, it would not be like saying MSNBC thinks Bush should be impeached or resign because Keith Olbermann makes that statement almost nightly. (which he doesn't by the way, in fact, i can't recall an instance where he makes that statement even once - which proves the point i made above about "tone" and the reader's (or, in this case, watcher's) biases.) It would be like saying that Keith Olbermann has a show on MSNBC which represents his opinions. Your second point is a false analogy.

As to your third point: It is intrinsicly obvious that FNC, CNN, and MSNBC present programming that some people want to watch. it is also obvious that some of their shows include different people's opinions on the news. We would not be having this discussion were that not the case. Nobody is arguing against this. In fact, this has been a premise of some of the points that I have made. However, your conclusion: "As a result they choose which will make them the most money in advertising." does not follow from the premises that you offered. And, in fact, you have not offered any evidence to support this argument. Any news source has a social responsibility to report the news accurately and in proportion to its importance, just like, we on wikipedia, have a responsibility to provide verifiable information that is relevant, important, and interesting to the reader, due proportion. The mere fact that we are having this debate is evidence in itself that some people will automatically attempt to fulfill this obligation, irrespective of the existence or lack thereof of any monetary reward, as neither I, nor - I presume - you, are getting paid for our contributions. So we -- and the millions of other contributors to wikipedia, are living proof that mankind will work for non-material rewards. The people who make decisions about what shows to have on a given news channel will not necessarily "choose which will make them the most money in advertising." There are other considerations that come into play when making such decisions, such as their conscience, and, in some cases, their political biases - whether deliberately or not. In fact, fox news claims to be "fair and balanced", which means -- presumably -- that they consider "fairness and balance" in making decisions, which does not always align itself with "making money". Even if they choose the programs they play simply to make money, then it would be material to the article what shows they choose, in that those are the shows that presumably "make money". As I have demonstrated, there are other factors that inextricably influence such decisions, but it is nonetheless important to show what content constitutes a news station, be it FNC, MSNBC, CNN, or what have you. That content, which will invariably differ among the different news channels, reflects the influences that went into their respective decision maker's decisions, which will invariably differ.

As regards your fourth point, I have told you what what makes them different from other cable news networks in the above paragraph. When a person is disliked by both the right and the left, they are generally referred to as an "extremist". No, it is not possible to be extremely in the middle. And no, my claim does not in any way imply that both the right and the left presented are extremist. Nor does it validate any claim of fair and balanced. Nor does giving both sides a platform constitute fairness and balance - there is more to fairness and balance than just giving both sides.

Regarding your "finally": Right, that would not be neutral. It would also be original research. Nobody is suggesting that we do that. This is another straw man argument. Kevin Baas^talk 00:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree, it is exactly the same, and he does make that statement often. I listen to him regularly. Arzel 05:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An extremist is some that is far outside the norm. Someone in the middle by defintion cannot be an extremist (10 years of statistical background talking). The fact that some people feel his is an extremist is more of a testiment about them, then a testiment about him. Arzel 05:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So you are saying that FNC should not allow BOR freedom of speech? I disagree with your response to my fourth opinion entirely, and my fifth point is not a straw man arguement. If you want to say that FNC is Arab Biased (previous mis-statement by me) then simply show some evidence. Even the references provided earlier don't even state that, it is purely OR. Arzel 05:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fairness and balance statement is related to "their" belief that they give both sides a platform, if you don't believe that is so, then that is your opinion. As someone in the middle I believe they do, that is my opinion, thus a stalemate. Arzel 05:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I don't feel it is a straw man arguement (response to Blaxthos). Arzel 05:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Another example. Randi Rhodes from Air America comments almost everyday how she feels that President Bush lied about the war in Iraq, and on a somewhat irregular basis feels that Bush was partially responsible for 9/11 or even directly complicent. Does that mean that Air America is biased against Bush, and that it believes that President Bush conspired to have 9/11 happen in order to attack both Afganistan and Iraq? Of course not, it is her opinion. I don't listen to Rush, so I don't know what kind of stupid crap he spews on a daily basis, but I am sure it is similar in tone. I may not agree with what their stupid asses have to say, but I will defend it their freedom to say without holding their employees accountable. Imagine if you lived in a country where you could not. Arzel 06:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, Arzel, let me try to help out here.

1. Keith Olbermann has indeed called for Bush to resign. I've seen it twice -- hardly often, but Arzel is correct in stating that Olbermann has made that statement. However, it has nothing to do with an article about Fox News.
2. You don't have to believe that Bill O. is an extremist or not. There are plenty of reliable sources that believe he is. Your opinion of the matter certainly does not trump WP:RS.
3. There is a distinct difference between freedom of speech and editorial responsibility. Bill O. is free to say whatever he pleases, however when a network that claims to be Fair & Balanced pays someone to say those things on their network they assume responsibility and liability for what he says. Again, see editorial oversight and vicarious liability.
4. Just because FNC calls themselves Fair & Balanced doesn't make it true, and it doesn't mean an encyclopedia must quell reliable evidence to the contrary. Again, see the numerous peer reviewed studies.
5. Do you understand what a strawman argument is? Mischaracterizing an opposing argument so you may easily knock it down does an injustice to the project and shows disrespect of others' opinions.
6. Appealing to patriotism and "freedom of speech" to silence negative information is a red herring and only draws away from the actual issues.

Hope this helps. /Blaxthos 13:14, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arzel, you said that our opinions cancel each other out - no they don't. I still have my opinion, and you still have yours. But our opinions don't really matter, because they don't belong in the article. (See WP:NPOV.) Besides that, I think Blaxthos did a pretty good job of explaining my thoughts about your replies. Kevin Baas^talk 17:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And regards "but to say that FNC is biased because O'Reilly makes stupid opinion statements (which change from week to week depending on how things are going) is not neutral." being a straw man or not - which both me and blaxthos have independantly come to the conclusion that it is a straw man - to show that it is not a straw man argument, all you need to do is point out where either of us have suggested that "FNC is biased because O'Reilly makes stupid opinion statements". Kevin Baas^talk 17:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Edit Conflict

1. Just trying to provide a similar frame of reference.
2. His extremeness is not really at issue, and I don't deny that some may consider him extreme.
3. This is where we disagree. I say that FNC pays BOR to give his opinion, but if I read you correctly FNC pays BOR to give their opinion. Editorial oversight does not pertain to opinion. I am not sure how this is a case of Vicarious liability.
4. True, but neither should it be a case of guilt by association.
5. Yes, I understand. I don't view my first point as a straw man arguement, maybe a non-sequiter. My other supposed straw-man arguement was trying to point out the logical falacy. Kevin claimed everyone on FNC is an extremist, yet they have Left, Right, and Middle on their opinion shows. Just because some believe ther are all extremist doesn't inherently mean they are not Fair and Balanced.
6. Duly noted.

Additionally, if you read the references, the first is not even about FNC, their is some anciliary mention of BOR, but it still doesn't back up the claim made. Obviously the second one is out. The third was BOR giving his opinion that the Iraqi populous wasn't appreciating what the US was doing for them and it wasn't even on FNC, it was from the Fox news talk radio. Arzel 17:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I did not claim that everyone on FNC is an extremist. This is a straw man. I do not appreciate you putting words in my mouth that I did not say. Kevin Baas^talk 18:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You said. And finally, they are all political radicals; extremists and are presented on the channel on almost a daily basis -- and that alone merits mention in an article. Not just small mention, either - but substantial mention. No other channel does that. in what I could only interpret as a response to me stating. For one thing, to quote individuals from FNC who voice their personal opinion (as O'Reilly often does) is not fair to FNC. Perhaps you wish to clarify. Arzel 01:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I had specifically mentioned Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly - and there was another one I was thinking of. I was thinking of these three and meant to refer to them when i said "they are all political radicals". Apparently, in explaining all the different thoughts I had, I skipped over that part and didn't go back to it. But yeah, my point was this: who has someone like ann coulter on a news program?!? No other channel would take such a class-acts' opinion seriously enough to give them air time. And yet you have news anchors on Fox News not only treating her better than they treat some senators on the program, but actually praising her psychobabble with statements like "I think she summed up the issues rather well." She's a frickin' clown! she's not a serious pundit. But they treat her like one and have her appear again and again. No other news channel puts clowns on serious news programs and treats them like serious pundits, and then has them on again and again. They have a bunch of right-wing radicals who've lost touch with reality on as regular guests and call them "pundits", while from time-to-time they put on a moderate democrat and call him/her "far-left", and call it "balance". That's why I don't watch the channel for News. It's not really a real news program. I go to CNN or BBC for news. They're much more serious and their coverage is much more in-depth. Anyways, my point was bascially stating why the section on individual personalities in the FNC controversies aritcle is important. But you're right, I forgot to specify, so what i wrote wasn't what i meant to say. my apologies. Kevin Baas^talk 22:39, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Appology accepted, equally sorry if you felt I was putting words into your mouth. Ann Coulter is extreme, she does say things which seem to be purely to infuriate those that would disagree, and I don't agree with almost anything she says. However, I have only seen her as a guest on opinion shows. FNC could probably do better in finding an equally caustic person from the left to balance her out, but given her nature she would probably go even more overboard with he comments (she seems to love that she is a point of conflict). I guess the real question is the degree which someone appears to be left or right, and for most people appears to be personal opinion. Regardless, all of this is opinion, and not related to their coverage of news. Arzel 03:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding "I say that FNC pays BOR to give his opinion, but if I read you correctly FNC pays BOR to give their opinion. Editorial oversight does not pertain to opinion." -- Thank you for bringing up how you read what was being said. I think I can speak for Blaxthos as well as myself when I say that you have read us incorrectly. We are not saying that FNC pays BOR to give their opinion. We are saying that FNC pays BOR to give his opinion. The point is that the political positions of the people that FNC pays to give their opinion is substantially skewed. I did a little research to try to something to clarify this position, and I found that it is clearly presented on Fox_News_Channel_controversies#Criticism_of_individuals. You can also take a look at Fox_News_Channel_controversies#Reports.2C_polls_and_studies, and find a relevant quote regarding guests (as opposed to hosts): "The "signature political news show" of the Fox News Channel, Special Report with Brit Hume, was found to have a strong bias in their choice of guests, overwhelmingly choosing conservatives over 'non-conservatives' to appear in interviews. This was the finding of the media watchdog group Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR), noted in a study taken across a 19 week period from June 2003 to December 2003. They found the ratio of conservative guests to liberals to be 50:6." To reiterate, we are saying that the statistical distribution of the political positions of hosts and guests that FNC chooses to present is substantially skewed. And this is certainly something that editorial oversight pertains to. Kevin Baas^talk 18:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Beyond that, broadcasters are strictly responsible for the content they air (even commercial programming). Ask Don Imus, or the broadcasters that were fined for the "wardrobe malfunction" a few years ago -- editorial oversight applies to anything that is broadcast. Regarding vicarious liability - companies are responsible for the actions of their employees while said employees are executing duties "on the clock." Unlike MSNBC, who fired Don Imus, FNC takes no disciplinary action against Bill O. (or any of their staff, apparently) and continues to promote their shows. As such, they implicitly (or, IMHO, due to continued renewal of contracts and continued broadcasting of content, explicitly) condones their actions. Before you go shouting "original research" please understand that this is used on a talk page to explain to you the why, not as part of the article itself -- WP:OR applies to article content, not to educational discussion on a talk page.  :-) /Blaxthos 21:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Respectfully, of course, I could not disagree more. Don Imus was on the MSNBC airwaves when he made his comments with the intent to demean college athletes who never asked to be in the public sphere. CBS may have violated obscenity laws, the case is now under appeal. And again it was something that occurred over their airwaves. Expressing conservative thought and opinion is in no way obscene, indecent, or outrageous behavior. FNC has no analagous situation on Foxnews. Yes, some of the analysis is skewed, yes they are personal attacks, but no more than on any other opinion program since Crossfire lowered the bar all those years ago. In effect Bill O'Reilly is no different than Keith Olbermann. They are two sides of the same coin. They both personally attack people regularly, and have both been involved in controversies for conduct that occurred outside the respective studios. Finally, based on your reasoning above one can equally say that MSNBC also agrees with who Keith Olbermann names the "Worst Person in the World", since they never reprimand him, and continue to trump his increase in ratings. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 16:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Kevin Bass. I hardly view the FAIR report as a valid study, primarily since it is not an actual research study which has been peer reviewed without full statistics and disclosure of methods used. However, the other one which I think you might be refering is. The Groseclose and Miylo paper, which is a primary reference as evidence of conservative bias. Something I have mentioned before, and something most people seem to ignore is that this study is comewhat contrary to the perception many people would view. A centrist view within that research paper sets 50.2 as a central point for political bias. FNC Brit Hume is a 39.7, which is right of center 10.5 (although not in the absolute value sense.) However, the average media outlet is 62.6, which is left of center 12.4. Thus the results from the study confirm that not only is media liberally biased, in general media is more liberally biased than FNC is conservatively biased. ABC World News Tonight is 10.8 Left, CBS Evening News is 23.5 Left, and NBC Nightly News is 11.4 Left. A lot of this drives the perception that FNC is extremely biased, but it is only in the context of other media choices, because they are all actually more biased the other way.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Arzel (talk • contribs)

Alright, the FAIR report, you want to know the methods used? They count up the liberal guests, they count up the conservative guests, and then they divide one by the other. Viola. Peer review? Try doing it yourself. It's easy for anyone to verify. The other study you mention, the Tim Groseclos report, is highly subjective and interpretative. there's really nothing scientific about it and the sources he used are totally biased. Certainly not objective. and definitely not scientific: what is he basing this on? The political orientations of the hosts and/or guests? what kind of relevant quantitative empirical measure? Garbage in, garbage out. He might have just written down his opinion - would have saved himself a lot of trouble. In any case, these reports are in the controversy section. Which of the two is more probable explanation: every single media outlet except one is biased to a certain side, or one media outlet is exceptionally biased to a certain side? Reality check: the simplest explanation is most likely correct. Anyways, the fact that we're discussing these reports right now shows that we find them interesting and important, which is my point. Kevin Baas^talk 23:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How can you disqualify the Groseclose and Miylo paper which was actually published in a peer reviewed journal, and accept the FAIR report? I see you are employing Occam's razor as a defense of FAIR and disregarding the other and in essence your own straw man arguement. Occam's razor, while good in theory, fails miserably in practice. A classic example is that of the orbits of Earth and the other planets around the sun. The simple answer, and the one beleived for some time was that the sun, the moon, and the four viable planets at the time revolved around Earth. Certainly from our perspective, it appears they revolve around us, even today it is difficult to imagine that the movement of the sun is illusion due to the rotation of the Earth. However, as we know now, the complex answer (at the time) was that Earth rotates around the sun. Regardless, the Groseclose and Miylo paper is properly cited and referenced. I realized it has been panned by Media Matter (big suprise), yet it is still used as a reference here as evidence of FNC's purported conservative bias (confused like me?). In any case, this research follows the basic tenet of WP:RS, which I am sorry to say, the FAIR study does not. Arzel 04:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to know how i can disqualify said report, simply read what I wrote in the preceding paragraph. As regards WP:RS, I strongly disagree with your assessment. And I was using occam's razor independantly of either report; without either reports - knowing simply that FNC is far to the right of all other media outlets, there are two possibilities, the most probable and the least probable one - which is another way of saying the simplest and the most complex. Complexity is directly related to probability, that's why occam's razor works. minimum message length is a principle used in information theory that is mathematically equivalent to occam's razor, which demonstrates this direct relationship. For instance, when a stream of data is transmitted over a noisy channel, the reciever will always flip as few bits as possible to get a "valid" stream. These "fewest bits" constitute the "simplest explanation", and results in a sequence of bits that is more likely than any other sequence to be the stream of bits that was sent by the sender. This is because there is a direct mathematical relationship between simplicity/complexity (see information entropy) and probability. In the example you cite, the planets revolving around the sun was actually a simpler explanation because it involved a much simpler orbits and a much simpler mathematical model. That is why the model was proposed. The older theory of the planets and the sun revolving around the earth had prevailed up until that time not because it was simpler (it was not), but because it appealed to the senses. Kevin Baas^talk 22:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously regarding OR we are not going to come to any sort of agreement. In the field of statistics you could argue it does take place, but it is more of an indirect relationship than a result of principles applied by OR. In multiple regression you can have two seperate models predicting the same outcome, one very complex, one very simple. The basic premise is to use the simple one, not because it introducies unneccesary complexity, but because with each additional variable within a model the number of observations needed for significant power is increased, this principle is also used with factor analysis. This is often the case even when the complex model is a better predictor of some event. However, the deciding factor at which the complixity of the model is determined is never quite this easy, and it is easy to make a false association by creating a model that is too simple to account for significant correlation. Within the field of Industrial Engineering, specifically Operations Research, some of the same principles apply. The primary problem with OR is when a desired outcome has already been predetermined. In this case, you have already determined that FNC is biased, thus working backwards you use the simplist model to validate your claim, which is not how OR is to be used, which is why I used the previous example regarding the motion of the earth and planets around the sun. All of this is arbitrary however. The G&M paper follows the basic tenets of WP:RS. The FAIR report is not scientific, and that it fits the predetermined model that you believe is irellevant. Arzel 23:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We seem to have different definitions of scientific. My definition requires empirical verifiability, repeatability, falsifiable, requires an experiment, etc.. The FAIR report is empirical, verifiable, repeatable, and requires an experiment. If you dispute the results, the thing to do is to do the experiment yourself, and see what results you come up with. That makes it scientific to me. Who does or does not publish it, who reviews it and who doesn't review it, has no effect on the process that was undergone to arrive at the results. As I thought I already explained to you by way of invoking occam's razor, i am not coming at this from a predetermined model. Occam's razor is only applied when there is no other mechanism to resolve an ambiguity. A predetermined model would constitute such a mechanism. I did not start out with the conclusion that fox news is biased. I started out with two possibilities that arise from an observation which is not in dispute: either 1.) fox new is in the middle, and all other channels are biased to the left, or 2.) on average (i.e. in the aggregate), news channels are fairly neutral, and fox news is an outlier from this average, which happens to be to the right. provided one accepts that fox news is not to the left of most other channels, nor in the middle of most channels, option 2 is the statistically more plausible explanation simply because the normal distribution (the proper statistical function for this) follows the law of large numbers. Notice the normal distribution represents the null hypothesis. That's why i say it is "simpler": given the null hypothesis, it is much more statistically probable. one would have to add non-null hypothesis; premises; assumptions - in any case complexity - to the explanation in order to make option 1.) more probable than option 2.). Lacking empirical, repeatable... scientific results, in the manner described above, that provides sufficent and reliable statistical samples to skew this distribution in favor of option 1.), a person who reaches conclusions by weighing the available evidence would believe option 2.), as it remains the statistically more likely explanation. The report that you prefer does not provide such a statistical sample. The paper i refer to does provide an empirical sample from a repeatable experiment. And this sample actually skews the distribution in favor of option 2.) Kevin Baas^talk 00:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The primary problem with the FAIR report is that they defined their population. Also, they don't use a random sample over the history of FNC, they took 5 month of data during a republican sitting president (which by default would result in greater Republicans), and they don't provide any confidence intervals. They also don't list the limitations of the study. By defining their population they introduced bias into their report before they even began. The problem with your two choices is they both make an assumption of bias. The G&M paper has as a null hypothesis that there is no bias, plus they didn't define their population. In option 1, your null is that Main Stream Media (MSM) is more biased than FNC, ie FNC < MSM, or that FNC is not biased, ie FNC = 50 (50 being neutral or no bias). FNC = 50 is the correct test, but this is not what FAIR is testing. FAIR is testing that guests on FNC have equal weight, ie. CON = LIB, but then they make a huge error and define their population introducing bias. Peer review would question the methods and require the study be redone with an independent classification. In your option 2, your null is that MSM = 50, or FNC < 50. The correct test is that MSM = 50, which is what the G&M paper tests, with a result being that MSM ne 50, and additional research stating that yes FNC < 50, with CBS, NBC, and ABC being equally > 50, or in the case of CBS being much > 50. It seems to me that your two options have faulty H1 statements. Option 1; H0 - FNC = 50, H1 - MSM > 50 Option 2; H0 - MSM = 50, H1 - FNC < 50. FAIR is fine for opinion, but it is not reliable research. Arzel 01:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is no way to have a sample with an undefined population. So to have a defined population is not a problem. One always has a defined population. The problem is not stating it. They did it over 19 weeks. That's a pretty large sample. And it took them 19 weeks to take that sample. If you'd rather they do it randomly over a couple of years, well that would have to be pre-recorded and it would be pretty difficult to demonstrate that their selection was, in fact, random. All one would know is that they had the ability to pick and choose what days, hours, even minutes they took their sample from - and with that, it would be VERY easily for them to manipulate the results, and there'd be no way for a reviewer to tell whether or not they manipulated the results. With a 19-week contiguous chunk, because of the central limit theorem, it would be much more difficult to manipulate the results by choice of sample, and easily verifiable that they didn't have an opportunity to do so, by the fact that it was a 19-week contiguous chunk. That is, having a contiguous sample of a random variable protects against selection bias. That is a GOOD thing. It prevents them from being able to pick and choose; it PREVENTS the possibility of selection bias.

I really don't see how having a republican sitting president is going to make a t.v. station have more republicans on the air, be them hosts or guests. (thought i can see how comparing news stations against a republican-dominated congress would skew your results) That's quite an assumption and unless you can over any evidence to support it, I'm going to have to throw it out as highly unlikely. Esp. for a news channel that considers itself "fair and balanced" - you'd think they'd at least make an effort to have a balance of guests on the station if they pride themselves on balance. All in all, I'm calling B.S. on that one. And not providing a confidence interval? For one, that doesn't throw their methods or results into dispute, it just shows that the actual distribution is 50:6 give or take something or other. Secondly, in order to get a confidence interval you have to have a total population, and how do you propose they do that with time?

The two choices I offered are the one that i offered and the one that you offered, wich are two ways of discussing the same thing. as i explained later, my explanation relies on accepting this, which you do not dispute. From this premise, which we both agree on, assuming no further knowledge about the distribution.... i though i made myself clear. i don't feel i should have to go over the whole thing again.

Look, what is "50"?; What is the center? g&m provides no empirical source for this center point. they just base it some opinions. that's where the logic that i explained comes in, lacking an empirical center point, one uses the reasoning i gave above. this reasoning shows that, lacking extradionary evidence, when a news station stands apart from the crowd in it's political position, it is far more probably that that news station is biased, than all the other news stations are biased. the fair report, unlike the g&M report has an empirical source for their "50", and it is "50:50"; 50 conservative guests for every 50 liberal guests. It's a quantitative measure and it's fairly objective. the only subjectivity is in what qualifies as a "liberal" or "conservative" guest, and most people will be in relative agreement on this matter, and most guests will tell you their position when asked, so it's not really that difficult to determine reliably. It is scientific. your opinion of FAIR doesn't matter. that's the beauty of science. Since the empirical world itself is reliable, all you have to do to prove them wrong is take a 19-week sample and count the conservative guests and the liberal guests, and divide one by the other. regardless of how you feel about FAIR, the result you get, no matter what sample you choose (provided it's sufficiently large and you define it so as to avoid selection bias), you will always get the same approximate result, due to the central limit theorem. That's the beauty of science. Kevin Baas^talk 02:29, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FAIR defined what was Conservative and Liberal using their own method of classification. Thus they defined their population and introduced bias. G&M do provide a source for their determination of centristic views. The Central Limit Theorem doesn't apply to the FAIR study. They didn't do a random sample, and in effect it is not really even a statistical study. There results could be defined explicitly that during the five months they viewed, they identified 50 conservative guests and 6 liberal guests (by their defintion). Some of that is biased since many of the guests where members of government agencies, including president Bush further skewing the apparent view to the right. What FAIR did is not scientifically based, and regardless of how you feel about the G&M paper it had to go through a peer review process which would have evaluated the statistics, methods, collection of data, limitations, and conclusions of the research. As to your final claim of selection bias. It is simply untrue that a large sample will avoid selection bias. In fact, one observation randomly selected can be used as a point estimate for a population. It is meaningless in the context of error, but it is still a valid estimate. All the CLT descibes is that if enough samples are collected, their mean will move towards the true mean of the population, but it has nothing to do with selection bias. The only way to avoid selection bias is to take a completey random sample, simple random sample for example. What FAIR did was actually sample the entire population from one time frame. As such their results are worthless for prediction of times prior to or after the time frame they selected. Look Kevin, I have been doing Statistical Analysis for over ten years, and have been cited in several research journals. What FAIR did is simply not the way statistical research is done in the professional world, and has no validity outside the time frame they observed. To say that by taking that specific 19 week period they avoided selection bias is questionable at best. There may have been several confounding variables which they did not take into consideration. They may very well have introduced bias simply by using that time frame. In any case I am tired of this discussion, you have your view, and we have WP:RS which the G&M source is the stronger source. Arzel 05:13, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am frustrated with trying to communicate with you - it seems that you're not listening. Apparently we're both math guys, so we should be able to assume a level of competency from each other in those fields when discussing this. Instead of restating all the points i made, I will try focusing on just one or two:

Increasing sample size does decrease the probability of selection bias: as the sample size approaches the size of the total population, the probability of selection bias approaches zero. But that is not what I said. The fair study has a number of samples of a random variable, therefore central limit theorem applies. The samples themselves need not follow any distribution. Indeed, all non-random samples are special cases of random samples (i.e. the set of ordered samples is a subset of the set of all random samples), so if your understanding of central limit theorem is correct, then the theorem doesn't apply to anything at all. Having a random sample means having a sample with a high probability of being representative of the total population - another way to put this is to having a random sample means having a sample that is not disproportiately composed of samples that are known to be correlated with a specific result. Now in certain instances, like in an election or in making a controversial claim, one has to choose a sample that is demonstrably uncorrelated to the results, so that a skeptic cannot accuse the gatherer of the samples of picking and choosing ones that would confirm a pre-determined result. That is what I said. For example, say one needs a sample of 140 days out of a population of, say 500 days. If there is no restriction on these days, there are 500 choose 140 combinations one could choose. And because that number is so large, there are very, very many such samples which will show a strong biased to either direction, almost all of which look random. In such a case, a person may say "you didn't pick that randomly, you choose the ones that would produce that result.", and they may very well be right. If, on the other hand, one puts the restriction that the 140 days must be contiguous, there are now only 500-140=360 different choices of sample. Of these choices, very, very few of them will have a significant bias. A person may still say "you didn't pick that randomly, you choose the ones that would produce that result.", but their chance of being right will be much smaller than in the former case. For example, you could give me an unordered list of the numbers 0-64, I could sort the numbers from lowest to highest, pick the top 8 numbers, and tell you the average is 4. I could show you what positions in the list they were at, and you would see that there was no pattern to where i picked them from, and conclude that they were indeed a simple random selection, and i could give you the numbers, and you could verify that those were the numbers that where at those positions, and the average of them is 4. Or, you start with the same list, give me a list of the first 8 numbers, the next 8, the next 8, etc., and say i can pick any one of those 8 lists, and give you the average of the 8 numbers on it. As before, I could sort the lists from the lowest average to the highest average, and give you the average of the top list. Chances are, that number will be much, much closer to 32 than 4. That's what I'm saying. Now I hope I don't have to explain that again. Kevin Baas^talk 23:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I understand what you are saying, but what FAIR did was simply not the right way to remove selection bias. Even if FAIR did randomly select a 5 month period, it still wouldn't change the fact that it would not remove the threat of External Validity. There are a couple of ways to look at it, but probably the easiest would be sampling methods for biologist counting the number of animals in a specific region. Because of the nature of data, they will divide a region into a grid, of a sizes easily observable, and randomly select plots counting every animal within that plot. If done correctly, you can interpret the results to represent the entire region, even if only a small number of regions (normally n >= 25) were selected. If you apply this to FNC you would split the entire broadcast of FNC into sections, and randomly select sections, counting every guest in that section. However, if you only select one section, you have a N=1, which although a valid point estimate (I had to prove it as part of my graduate coursework), it is not useful in the context of estimating the rest of the population because their is no esitmate of error. It doesn't even matter how big the section is (thus the law of large numbers doesn't apply). That is what FAIR did, but this is what they should have done. Losing indent for explanation. Arzel 02:54, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It still matters how big the section is. As the size of the section approaches the size of the total population, the margin of error gets smaller and smaller. Though if what you are saying is another way of stating the ecological fallacy, then I agree with you. But this operates under the assumption that the random variable is not random with respect to your sample space. For instance, if you were doing an exit poll for an election, and polled only in the morning, you should not expect that might not be indicative of the evening results, because the way people vote may be correlated with the time of day - for instance, one party might have a tendency to vote in the morning, and another in the evening.) And likewise the whole is not necessarily indicative of the parts, and vice-versa.) However, this is not the case with a 5-month period of guests on a news channel, as the cons. to lib. guest ratio should be fairly close to 1:1 for every given DAY. If for ANY consecutive 5-months, there's a 50:6 ratio of conservative guests to liberal guests, that qualifies as a strong conservative bias for a prolonged period of time. 22:16, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

If the selection included the entire population up to that time there wouldn't even be a margin of error. But when dealing with time series type data, there is always the possibility of some seasonal effects plus there is also the confounding factor of the party in power (Rep had the presidency, senate, and house at the time). I'm not saying you can't do what they did, just saying it doesn't have any pratical use outside of the time frame used. The same applies to polling data, which is why you see increasing numbers of polls as you get closer to an election. But even these values have limited use and are really only valid for a short period of time. The problem with FAIR is that they seem to use one time period as evidence of conservative bias throughout the entire life of FNC. This may very well be the case, but you can't use the FAIR study to back up that statement. Arzel 23:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I just said (cf. "any given DAY"), if seasonal effects are significant, then that in itself constitutes a problem. The party in power may be considered a seasonal effect, so to say "plus there is also the confounding factor" is to make the same thing into two things. If the party in power significantly effects the cons.-lib. distribution of guests on FNC, then that in itself constitutes a problem. (though i don't remember the leanings of FNC being all that different when clinton was president) In any case, in order to find such things out when should test them - there may very well be an anti-correlation. But until the degree of correlation or anti-correlation is known, it is proper to assume the null hypothesis: zero correlation. Kevin Baas^talk 22:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that selecting a sample "at random" is ideal for showing systemic statistical properties, insofar as "random" is another way of saying "minimal correlation with any known aspect of the system". However, it also introduces the possibility for cherry-picking i.e. selection bias because the method that went into selecting the sample cannot be known with any degree of certainty to a reviewer. In any case, if the time-series data for FNC is not gaussian (purely random with respect to time), in which case a contiguous sample would be as indicative of the whole as a non-contiguous sample, it is sub-gaussian, in which case a contiguous sample would be more indicative of events near it than a sample scattered across the whole would be, and lacking any sample over a longer term, it is more probable that current events are correlated with the sample than anti-correlated (sub-gaussian temporal distributions are auto-correlated w/a positive correlation). Kevin Baas^talk 22:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You have not provided any evidence that the FAIR report uses "one time period as evidence of conservative bias throughout the entire life of FNC." Nor have you provided any evidence that the most recent consecutive 5-month span is any less indicative of the current bias of the channel than 150 days distributed in any other fashion throughout the life of the channel. Kevin Baas^talk 22:12, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1. Define their hypothesis to be tested. FAIR seems to have started along the lines that they would test Brit Hume with Wolf Blitzer. Their use of a strict ratio isn't really useful because there is no context of whether it is different than other main stream news. SO the hypothesis should be that FNC has an equal ratio of conservative guests as CNN, with the resulting statistic being an Odds Ratio. A ratio of 1 or close to 1 would indicate a similar ratio.

   The FAIR report is judging absolute bias, and the null hypothesis is no bias; 1:1 ratio of conservatives to liberals. That is useful because it establishes whether or not fox is biased, and to which direction. They are not examining whether it is different from other news stations. They are examining whether it is fair and balanced.

   They can still do that, but it would be a much more practial study to start with a comparison. The best case would to compare all cable news stations under similar situations. You could get an overal view of conservative vs liberal guest rate, and also the difference between each group. I only listed the null as I did, because it seems that is what FAIR initially planned to do, but then didn't know how to do the statistical analysis properly (FNC was staitically more likely than CNN using their data. I don't have the statistical results in front of me right now, but I think I got a 3:1 odds ratio.) Arzel 23:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2. Determine the size of the sample needed. Using Power analysis, they would determine the number of observations needed to guarentee at least an 80% power of detecting a difference at the 0.05 level of significance. For this study I would then double that number (reason to be given later).

   they are taking a sample from a theoretically infinite population. Since it's a time-resident variable, they could assume an exponential decay of bias, and given an expected decay rate, use information theory to come up with a guess about what sample size they'd need to produce a certain confidence level for a certain period of time. Or they could determine a period of time and then choose a sample size from that. In any case, their not doing so in no way invalidates their results. It's merely up to the reader to choose a population size (time period) or confidence value, and determine one from the the other and the sample size. It shouldn't be that difficult for a person to get a rough estimate without actually doing the math. But if they want to, they can. Kevin Baas^talk 22:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

   You can only use what you have. So they should have chosen from the data they had available up to that time, and then update it from time to time. Your approach is much more complicated then they would need to do. And rough tables for Power analysis for this type of data is readily available without any math required. A sample of 100 per arm should suffice, doubled for possible loss during inter-rater reliability testing. (not much more than they did for their study). Arzel 23:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

3. Sample their population. They could use a stratified sample of time periods like I mentioned earlier, but a much easier way would be to take the entire history of FNC and CNN over similar time frames available and divide that time frame by the sample size needed. Randomly select a start point and then select every ith program and note the guest. This removes any possible selection bias.

   This would constitute a lot of work, without much gain. Also FNC's bias may have changed over time. The report is concerned with what their bias is NOW, and the best way to measure that is by using as recent a sample as possible. This does not constitute selection bias. Kevin Baas^talk 22:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

   It wouldn't have required that much more work, if any more work. The sample size required is easy to calculate, or even just estimate using rough tables. Assuming my previous estimates of 200, and a four or five year (?) history they would chose roughly every 4th or 6th weekday broadcast (wouldn't want to use every 5th day to avoid a possible day of week bias). Now not only could they test over all bias, but given the time series nature of the data put together control charts and mark the progress of bias over months.

4. Have two independent people go through and mark down the guest as either con/ind/lib. Take these results and compare them with each other using an inter-rater reliability test. If the agreement rate is high then use those which both agree (reason why to double the sample size earlier). It would be best if they could compare with a third party completely outside of FAIR to make sure that their is no bias. It is also important that those doing the rating don't know which guests where on which show to further remove any possible bias. Arzel 23:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

   You're doing a relative comparison here of your own hypothetical test, and it is not relevant. It would not show, for instance, whether both FNC and CNN are biased to the right, or both biased to the left. It will only show how far apart they are. In any case, they should publish a list of the guests that were on, and whether they were counted as lib. or con., so that anyone can validate the results. Kevin Baas^talk 22:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

   I think you are missing the beauty of this. Yes they would be able to tell how far apart the two groups were, but the would also be able to test the overall rate of bias, the best of both worlds. They did publish a list of the guests, some are obvious, some should be excluded from the study (president Bush for example, simply because what station wouldn't interview the president if given the chance). Some are questionable, but I didn't go through the whole list. Arzel 23:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

5. Once you have a valid sample, you would then perform a simple odds ratio test.

   If you were doing this kind of analysis. Again, the FAIR report attempts to measure the absolute bias of FNC by comparing the # of cons. guest w/the number of lib. guests. It is not comparing two news channels to see where they stand in relation to each other. That wouldn't be very useful. Kevin Baas^talk 22:44, 27 September

   You could still test the absoulute bias. A properly designed study, with properly collected data will allow you to do many tests. Arzel 23:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now this would be a great study and publishable, with very few (if any) internal or external validity threats. Arzel 02:54, 27 September 2007 (UTC) 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Having fun, are we? You don't need a degree in statistics (I have one, btw. Well, a concentration in a Math BA, anyway. Yes, BA, not BS. Ah, well...) to see the main problem with the FAIR study is that they seem to define anyone to the right of Chomsky as "conservative". They applied the same methodology to the famously right-wing News Hour with Jim Lehrer and came up with statistics very nearly as skewed to the right as they did for FNC. Andyvphil 21:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If what you say is true, then yeah, that throws the test out the window. But I highly doubt that what you say is true. Kevin Baas^talk 22:16, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FAIR's radio program is broadcast on one of the local PBS affiliates each Friday, and I'm relying on my memory from some time ago rather than web lookup, but they are on the gibbering fringe. Doubting me is ok. Will dig up some cites for you when I have time... ok, look at [1]. And "...FAIR find[s] that the NewsHour has a pattern of favoring center and right voices while largely excluding those on the left."[2] What you see depends on where you stand. In this case, considerably to the left of PBS. Andyvphil 23:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that PBS, in general, is a very neutral and informative station. I haven't watched it in a long time, but I recall finding newshour to be an exception - i found that to have a strong conservative bias. Also, the 700 club, what channel was that on? That's obviously VERY conservative. Anyways, I was looking for evidence that FAIR seems "to define anyone to the right of Chomsky as 'conservative'". I don't have time to read the two links right now, but I'll check them later. The matter in which you described them didn't make it sound like they contained such evidence. Kevin Baas^talk 01:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FAIR's claim that the NewsHour largely excludes voices on the left is prima facae evidence that they must be defining anyone to the right of Chomsky as non-left. But if you think Lehrer has a "strong conservative bias" I'm left asking...what planet are you on? Massachusetts? Andyvphil 14:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, I haven't watched it for a long time. In any case, it doesn't constitute prima facae evidence. One should look at the list of guests and see if each individual guest is correctly categorized. Kevin Baas^talk 19:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Blaxthos. So long as you don't violate federal decency laws regarding language and nudity most companies within this industry will allow anything to be said or written in the form of opinion, unless it is slanderous or libelous. The Imus situation is an interesting one. He was not fired specificaly for what he said, he contract was canceled because of public outcry regarding his comments. I thought that might be your responce for VL, but that doesn't imply to free speech, unless through the actions of the free speech the individual causes some harm, such as swearing on air which is already covered under federal law. This is why the stations are fined for the actions of the employee. But for the most part free speech overrules, with few exceptions. Since BOR is paid to give his opinion, FNC couldn't do anything anyway without violating his right to free speech, unless what BOR did already violated some federal law. If he said something so egregious to result in public outcry, they could fire him, like MSNBC did with Imus. Less clear is what is the case if he were to say something which is slanderous in the context of giving his opinion. Arzel 02:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1. Firstly, writting an encyclopedic article about FNC is not about being "fair to FNC", it's about providing interesting and important verifiable information to the reader, irrespective of how flattering or unflattering it is.-- True.

2. Secondly, presenting "individuals from FNC who voice their personal opinion", esp. on a regular basis, is important because it is representative of the content and nature of the channel, which is a main topic of the article.-- Also true, however, please note that all networks have disclaimers that regularly run saying that the opinions expressed may not be the views of the network.

Besides being irrelevant (i.e. non-sequitur), this is also false. Kevin Baas^talk 23:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

3. Thirdly, these are individuals that the t.v. channel consciously and deliberately chooses to present to the viewer. They know full well their views and opinions and choose to present those views to the public. That is an executive decision made by the management of the company and that decision is noteworthy. Wrong. The executive producers, hosts, and guest availablity determines who gets on what individual show. Although higher ups may have influence on who gets on the channel, the final decision is usually made at a lower level. Unless there is verifiable reliable source, that NewsCorp, or an executive at the company affirmatively pressed for a guest, that assumption is original research.

Umm, yeah, like i said, it's kind a heirarchiacal thing with Mr. Murdoch on top. Oh, and if a guest can't make it, well, they pick a different guest. Or can i say that? Is it original research? Some might call it "common sense", others, not so much. Yes, there is a sort of "bueracracy" in a corporation. Kevin Baas^talk 23:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

4. And finally, they are all political radicals; extremists and are presented on the channel on almost a daily basis -- and that alone merits mention in an article. Not just small mention, either - but substantial mention. No other channel does that.-- Irrelevant personal opinion of the editor. Not to mention the association fallacy implicit in the proposition.

And you would call Ann coulter and bill o'reilly... moderates? I'm not familiar with the "association fallacy", nor the concept of implicit fallacies - all logical fallacies must, by definition, be explicit. Kevin Baas^talk 23:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 16:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arzel: I think you are confusing the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech to individuals with the issue here -- namely, Fox News Channel chooses its content. Freedom of speech has nothing to do with the discussion.

Ramsquire: Regarding #3 above... I believe that in the quote "individuals that the t.v. channel consciously and deliberately chooses to present to the viewer", the word individuals references the people with programs (namely Bill O., Britt Hume, etc.). You are somewhat correct in that the producers and hosts determine the guests presented, however they're all parts of the same machine -- Fox News Channel.

/Blaxthos 22:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We were kind of going off on a tangent of OR for the purposes of discussion, but the underlying points are valid. BOR is going to say what he wants to say regardless of what FNC wants him to say. He, and others, were strongly critical of Bush's failed immigration policy. If one is to believe that FNC is nothing more than a talking points memo of the Republican party then this position flies in the face of that. Arzel 04:15, 25 September 2007 (UTC)±[reply]

No it doesn't; that conclusion does not follow from the premises that you offered. Kevin Baas^talk 22:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd just like to point out the inherent stupidity in this statement. The idea that Bill O'Reilly isn't a Republican or conservative because he criticizes Bush's plan on immigration is one of the most pathetic arguments I've ever heard. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and essentially every right-wing Republican talk show host in the country blasted Bush's immigration policy. They did so from a CONSERVATIVE angle. Being critical of Bush from the RIGHT is not objective criticism, it's ideological criticism. It's like AL Franken saying "I'm not a Democratic partisan, I criticized Clinton for welfare cuts, for free trade, for Don't Ask Don't Tell", it's pathetic, and only a ruthlessly stupid human being would buy into it. Partisan is ideological and well as party-based. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.191.221 (talk) 14:56, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To Kevin Bass-- I'm just responding to what you wrote. As for the association fallacy, your belief that Ann Coulter, and Bill O'reilly are extremists does not make them so. Even if they were certifiable extremists, to imply malfeasance to Fox for having them on is guilt by association fallacy. OTOH the belief by some that Arianna Huffington or Keith Olbermann are extremists does not make them so either. When it comes to political belief there is truly a wide spectrum. BTW-- on any given night on any channel I can see Coulter spewing her opinions, so why is it a problem when Fox lets her on?

I never said that ann coulter and BOR are extremists make them so. Though it's quite possible that their statements and behavior have influenced my beliefs about them - and I would say that they have.

And no, it's not guilt by association - it's guilt by liability. It's not that they're merely "associated"; it's not as if they're mutual strangers who happened to walk in a door together. There's a distinct and substantive relationship between them, and a clear and unmistakable asymmetry of power and control.

Some people would call mickey mouse an extremist. So what? One needs something more quantitative and objective than here-say.

They show her on other channels too, now? What a joke. Kevin Baas^talk 22:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After reading #3 again, I may have misunderstood your point. Since the issue that started this discussion was a quote by Savage (a guest on Foxnews), I figured the individuals you were referring to were guests. However, if your point was about the hosts being hired to do shows, then that would be something different, obviously. As for #4, we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding your analysis of the association fallacy. Yes, unfortunately (IMO) Coulter can be found on NBC, CNN, PBS, the Comedy Channel, HBO and several other channels on any given night. I thinks she's been blacked out at MSNBC after her insult to a Vietnam vet, but I could be wrong on that one. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 23:01, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It may be different definitions of "association" - I read in "guilty by association" that the associated has no power over the event and therefore no culpability. And since obviously FNC has the power to choose whether to start airing any given new show on FNC, to cancel a show on FNC, among other powers, the first condition, "no power over the event", is not met. If that's not what you mean by "association", then it is merely a difference in vernacular. I think the Comedy Channel might be the most fitting channel for her. As regards her insulting a vet - I wouldn't be surprised. I'm only surprised that other channels run the risk of having the sh@t that comes out of her mouth come out of her mouth on their channel. But I guess I just have higher standards than some people. Kevin Baas^talk 23:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To Blaxthos-- the individuals mentioned in #3 are the guests. The quote reads that the "T.V. Channel" (i.e. Foxnews as an entity) chooses the guests to have on. That is not true, and I do not buy this conspiracy stuff about Foxnews being some cabal operated in a different business model from all other news operations. GE owns NBC, and their news divisions, CNBC, MSNBC. I am sure there is spin/propoganda/guests/etc. GE would like to get out during their news broadcasts. However, I trust that the journalists working for them would act ethically, and not let that pressure color their reports. Outside of the opinion shows, which do reflect a more overt political bias (in my opinion) I feel the same way about Foxnews.

Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 17:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just out of curiosity does anyone know if FNC gives the "The opinions stated on this show do not neccessarily represent the opinions or views of FNC." spiel before or after the BOR show? Supernathan 16:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It does not. /Blaxthos 22:34, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen the disclaimer a few times. However, I can't remember when, specifically. I don't recall if it was in a general commercial block, before a certain show, or before a certain guest. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 16:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2 points, #1 I am not complaining but was there a reason my question was relagated to it's own lonely little section? And #2 this page is structurally messed up from a dates perspective... posts are being made out of order. This is confusing for me (a relative regular to this page) so it must be incredibly difficult for someone new to the page to read. I don't feel comfortable moving things around because of the cat-fight like atmosphere but someone may want to address this when they have some time. Thanks.Supernathan 16:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1. I re-sectioned your question to make it easier to follow the thread (see #2). No offense or judgement on content was intended - my sincere apologies if it appeared as such.
2. I agree wholeheartedly. I have been out of town for a few days and am finding it difficult to decipher the conversation as well. And so...

I propose that we all agree to work together to keep things in chronological order by doing four things:

1. Post new discussion at the bottom of whatever section is being discussed.
2. Start each post (or paragraph) with "To foo", addressing the editor to whom we're responding within the post (or paragraph, if replying to multiple editors).
3. Do not break into the middle of another editors' posts to reply to points singularly (see #4 below) -- doing so makes it very difficult to decipher who said what, and in what order.
4. Use numbered lists whenever possible (like we've been doing) for points and counterpoints.

/Blaxthos 23:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's why I use the page history. I find it much easier to follow when each point is threaded. And easier to type up a response when i don't have to go back and forth between where i'm typing and where i'm reading. I think it's also easier for a newcomer to see the threads, rather than having to back-reference all the time. But I guess I'd be willing to use numbering if that's what everyone agreed on, though it seems to make the arguments more aggressive - as if you're showing off how many points/counterpoint you have, rather than trying to cooperatively find the best solution. Kevin Baas^talk 23:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Numbers just make it easier to refer to specific points -- my intent isn't to quantify points. /Blaxthos 23:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I should have said "one is". I was actually thing of my fear of how I might come off if I use numbers that way. Kevin Baas^talk 00:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is a fundamental problem with the way WP designed their talk pages (I don't claim to have a solution). But I agree with Kevin Baas, I use the history to find new comments. Arzel 23:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of the method you guys personally use to read the talk pages, does anyone have a problem with agreeing to follow the points I listed above? Thanks. /Blaxthos 00:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, I agree. I normally try to do that, the discussion with Kevin Bass notwithstanding. Anyway that discussion is probably not really appropriate for this talk article, interesting as it might be. If anything it has probably added some levity to the this article, given the previous disagreements in the past. Arzel 02:55, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that we need the article itself, the talk page, then the "get a beer/soda and blow off some steam" page. At the end of the day we all have a lot in common; we all want to make Wikipedia better we just have different ways of getting there. Somebody get to work on that beer page. Supernathan 16:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good Day. I have been away. Despite the head-butting between Mr. Blaxthos and I. I agree 100% with Blaxthos. Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople 16:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do we really need to mention bias allegations in the intro? CNN's article doesn't mention its bias allegations. Weatherman90 02:09, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

CNN don't use the advertising slogan of "Fair and Balanced". zoney ♣ talk 11:30, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And this means what? CNN uses "The Most Trusted Name in News", are they? Arzel 13:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This has been covered ad infinitum by multiple RFC's and a wide-ranging consensus. Arzel, you of all people know this because you've participated in the last large discussion about this. It would show a lot more good faith if you would get on board with it instead of using the opportunity to try and incite more strife -- a compromise is just that. To Weatherman: Please see the Talk:Fox News Channel/FAQ, and remember that the content of CNN has no authority on the content of this article. Bias is not mentioned because of their slogan, zoney. Thanks. /Blaxthos —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 13:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not interjecting anything, and I am not trying to restart the debate. However, The arguement that FNC uses "Fair and Balanced" means nothing, and if you think about it is more likely to restart debate if I hadn't pointed out the futility immediately. Arzel 17:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome to point out the irrelevance of both slogans to the issue at hand. However, instead of taking an adversarial position without any explaination of the issues, please take the time to point out the Talk:Fox News Channel/FAQ and the consensus (plural?) that have been determined. What you did is no better than what Zoney did, and contributed nothing more than more hostility. /Blaxthos 19:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly enough, the only "evidence" presented is one UCLA study (which has been refuted by various other studies) and a few Democratic figureheads. The Project for Excellence study is not accurate; in fact, it quite clearly states that "But any sense here that the [Fox News Channel] was uniformly positive about Republicans or negative about Democrats is not manifest in the data." [3] --75.21.175.79 04:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that only fox news is type cast as bias shows that wikipedia is bias. Liberals own the internet —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.80.96.75 (talk) 04:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The citations do not support the text. They would support the following: Members of the Congressional Black Caucus and some journalists say that Fox News promotes conservative political positions,[2][3][4]. This change is necessary by NPOV. The last link is broken and should be deleted. Raggz (talk) 21:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Someone reverted without first coming to TALK. Fine, we can discuss the proposed text here.

The text presently is very poorly supported by the citations. Why not upgrade the text to better reflect the sources? Syn Raggz (talk) 22:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not saying it isn't a better version, and I'm not saying it is. But that passage has been the subject of extreme debate over a considerable amount of time. Changes are best debated here prior to making any changes. So present your desired change and reasons for the change and we can debate the change. It will also take a few days for this process to move forward as there are several people that have commented on it in the past months. Arzel (talk) 22:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why not arbitration then? Is the process moving, or has it been seized up? Is there any point for me to hang around and debate?

Any arbritation would find that the present text is poorly supported by the citation offered. Why not just find a citation that supports the point that some wish to make? Raggz (talk) 03:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well concensus can change. The best step would be to start here and begin some discussion as to what you would like to see. I'll be offline for the next week, so this will likely be my last post on this topic for a while. Best of luck. Arzel (talk) 04:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a list of Fox News experts they have frequently (ie, whenever the topic they're an expert in comes up)? I'm looking for a certain retired general who was onboard with Fox during coverage of the Iraq war, and I'm not talking about the one who was fired. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.255.179.241 (talk) 05:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, there used to be something like that in the main article - a list of regular guests/guest commentators - but I think it was moved to Fox channel personalities because certain users were utilizing it to do the Fox-is-right-wing thing over again: listing all the conservatives, and anyone who wasn't conservative as having 'socially right-wing' or 'libertarian' leanings. Just check there and hopefully you'll find your answer. Edders 09:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, not even close -- do you just make this stuff up?? It was moved to Fox News Channel programming due to WP:SIZE concerns; there was absolutely no accusation that certain users were utilizing it to do the Fox-is-right-wing thing over again. Unbelievable, and yet I don't find myself all that surprised. /Blaxthos 09:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, you're right. I totally fabricated the archives from, say, 2006 which of course absolutely did not involve edits over the course of that year to the fox online personalities section. This section did not include a long list written in the style I noted which was eventually removed altogether. Furthermore, I didn't include anything like "I think" and "believe" in the above response to show I could only guess at the reason for their removal. But I guess that wouldn't suprise youEdders 17:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps this section in the archives will refresh your memory as to why it was moved. If that doesn't help you remember, then check out this section, which clearly states when it was moved and why. Please note the absence of any discussion pertaining to it being "utilized to do the Fox-is-right-wing thing" -- it's simly not true. Also, you clearly said "I think" (read what you wrote). Hope this helps! /Blaxthos 21:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh Jesus, look up WP:Sarcasm. Edders 14:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone know anything about this 2003 FBI memo about an ALLEGED terror plot involving forest fires, which Fox is now reporting as being a RECENT memo? Shouldn't this be in this Wiki article?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.54.17.184 (talk)

Depends, are there reliable sources supporting what your saying? Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 21:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Olbermann did a piece on it a few days ago. Whilst I would caution using Countdown as a singular source, I'm sure some digging could find the original sources. However, this seems pretty recent and isn't fodder for the main Fox article; it would be more appropriate at Fox News Channel controversies. /Blaxthos 22:27, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My response was a stock answer that I've begun to give when editors do entries like this. It may be that my assumption of good faith is waning, but if one can take the time to state on the talk page, something should be added to the article, they can take the same time to just add it to the article themself. If the only problem is with sourcing, someone should place a {{fact}} tag on the new sentence. However, I've been here long enough to know that posts like these are often bait. As for the actual topic, yeah, I'd need to see more objective coverage of the issue. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 23:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone know anything about the allegation that Fox fired some reporters for refusing to lie about milk? Shouldn't this be in this Wiki article?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.54.17.184 (talk)

No idea what this is about...? Still would be better suited elsewhere. /Blaxthos 22:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He is referring to the specific issue of the Bovine Growth Hormone issue invloving (I belive) Fox 13 in Florida. It is an issue specific to a FOX affiliate and doesn't appear to have anything to do with FNC in general. Arzel 22:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is talked about here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTVT-TV#Monsanto_controversy Arzel 23:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for doing the legwork, Arzel. It clearly has no relevance here. /Blaxthos 01:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No Prob. I had heard something about it a while ago, so there wasn't too much legwork to be done, but thanks. Arzel 00:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Akre and Wilson allege corporate involvement,[4] so the "only a Fox-13 issue" argument doesn't hold much water, but I agree [5] that the place to start with this material isn't here. Andyvphil 22:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I watched the video as well, but all you have is a very one sided view of the story. I'm not saying it didn't happen the way they are alleging it did happen, but I am a little leary about believing everything they said. There is a lot of hearsay without references to back anything up, plus the case was dismissed. If an independent third source can be found making the link then it should be included in the controversies section, but for now I think it should remain entirely within the Fox 13 article. Arzel 22:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is uncontroversial that they make the link to corporate. The truth of their claims is not at issue here, and the specific legal issue on which they lost their appeal is irrelevant here. And in Controversies, which is where this should go first. And there are plenty of independent third sources. Biased and/or gullible, perhaps, but independent, and qualifying as what Wikipedia quaintly calls a "reliable source". Andyvphil 22:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After a little more searching, there does appear to be some link since Murdoch purchased that specific station in the 90's. I'll continue my comments on the controversies talk. Arzel 23:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Before people assume that this has nothing to do with FNC, it's worth noting that the lawyer of record for the case was supplied by FNC and not by the affiliate, and Ailes himself was sent memos at the core of this case. There is no question that this case was about FNC and its policies at its core. --64.180.50.173 (talk) 17:10, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems we're back on the Roger Ailes nomenclature debate. I know that we had a talk disucssion about this (probably over a year ago); given recent edits I believe it is time to revisit the issue. I believe that his former position is germane because:

1. Ailes was at one time a political consultant for the Republican party.
2. There are longstanding allegations (from countless entities) that FNC is sympathetic to the republican party (to put it mildly). The controversy is so great that we include it in the lead paragraph for the FNC article.
3. Making note of his past does not violate WP:NPOV -- saying "former Republican political consultant" does not carry a particular connotation or POV; it's simply a verified fact.
4. Stating the fact without drawing any conclusions (as it does not) does not violate WP:OR/WP:SYN as it does not publish facts not in evidence.

Thoughts? /Blaxthos 21:27, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We've been through this before. Cherry picking a certain title (""former Republican political consultant") over others ("Award winning Broadway producer") is obviously intended to push a POV - that his old business relationship with the GOP was a significant factor in his getting the FOX job. If you are truly not intending to push this POV with that edit, but merely making note of his past without drawing any conclusions, how about we change the sentence to "In February 1996, after award winning Broadway producer Roger Ailes left America's Talking (now MSNBC)..." ? Or ""In February 1996, after Emmy-award winning director Roger Ailes left America's Talking (now MSNBC)..."  ? Isarig 21:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't necessarily object to either of those (regarding "Emmy-winning"). However, the Emmy has little relevance to FNC; the accusations of bias certainly do (so much so that it's mentioned in the lead). Is it coincidence that the channel formed by a former Repblican consultant oft stands accused of having a bias that favors Repblicans? Maybe. Is it relevant to this article, and should it be stated so that the reader can pontificate? Absolutely. /Blaxthos 23:05, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The assertion that it is relevant to the article is a POV, surely you realize this. If there is a reliable source that claims that Ailes was hired because of his old relationship with the GOP, we can quote that opinion - but as it is right now, it is POV-pushing by WP editors. You are welcome to the opinion this his winning an Emmy is irrelevant to FNC, but that his GOP consulting is. An alternate viewpoint, which I am sure you will hear from Fox management, is that winning an Emmy is a testament to the caliber of talent being hired, proof of their ability to create hit TV shows, and an indication of how well they understand prime-time TV audiences - all qualifications that one would look for when launching a new TV news station and hiring its president. At the same time, they will tell you his consulting for the GOP has no obvious relevance to his TV job at FNC (or at CNBC, for that matter). A similar argument can be constructed for his prior job as an award winning Broadway producer, or his being a well known author of books on communication strategy. It is in fact, quite telling that the article about CNBC, where Ailes was president prior to FNC, does not have any mention of his role as a former consultant to the GOP. Apparently, he was talented enough to get that position without needing to lean on the GOP. To favor the former POV over any of the latter, through the carefully cherry-picked title selection, is the epitome of POV-pushing. All of his previous careers have a place in his personal WP article, but not here. Isarig 01:15, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Given the nature of its recent insertion, it is clearly a POV push into the article. The editor which inserted it, has also made a run of articles inserting various opinion and other critical assertations either without RS or any sources (not that this needs one). That said, I am not against having it in the article, but perhaps it should be placed in a seperate area so that the context is appropriate. After the mention of political bias? We could add it there. Thoughts? Arzel 23:43, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad to see that we're at least moving towards common ground, Arzel. However, I refuse to evaluate content based on who made the contribution. In your first few sentences, you say that it is "clearly a POV push"; two sentences later you say that "I am not against having it in the article". That makes it seem like you're saying you would be more agreeable if it were contributed by a different editor. That's not sound or valid logic -- please see ad hominem fallacy. /Blaxthos 01:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can see your point. Arzel 02:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It woudl be appropriate in that context (after the mention of allegations of political bias) if it is sourced to a relaible source making that argument. It would be innapropriate for WP editors to juxatpose this fact with those claims. Isarig 01:15, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but stating Ailes' past career doesn't require a "reliable source" that is "making that argument". In fact, we're not making any argument at all. We're not saying that his political past has anything to do with FNC's percieved bias; we're simply stating the fact that he is a former Republican operative (which certainly has relevance here). It would seem that WP:V is more of the governing policy; clicking the wikilink to Roger Ailes does more than enough to satisfy that he was a former political consultant. /Blaxthos 01:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Stating Ailes' past career doesn't require a "reliable source" in Ailes' WP page. Stating it here, as some support for the contention that FNC has a conservative bias (which is exactly what you are doing above - going from "Ailes was at one time a political consultant for the Republican party" to "There are longstanding allegations that FNC is sympathetic to the republican party", hence the former is relevant to the latter) is a clear cut case of WP:SYN. Please don't do it. If there is some 3rd party making that claim, we might quote it in the relevant section, but a WP editor can't juxtapose those two facts to make a point. Isarig 01:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Isarig: Saying that Ailes was a former Republican consultant in the article makes no sythesis and no point. By mentioning it in the FNC history section instead of the controversy section we avoid insinuating that his former profession might induce bias at FNC (which, as you noted, would have to be attributed to a reliable source). Scrubbing the article of this information is not the answer. /Blaxthos 03:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If it makes no synthesis and no point, why do we need it? Why pick this one job, out of the dozen he held previously? If we must mention some past job, why not award-winning Broadway producer? Isarig 04:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Because it is germane to Fox News Channel specifically. I would also contend that previous Emmy Awards are also germane. /Blaxthos 05:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How is it germane to FNC, but not to CNBC? Isarig 07:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On the one hand, the financial channel CNBC doesn't have the reputation of conservative bias that Fox News Channel does; on the other, I never said it wasn't germane to both. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I did. /Blaxthos 08:12, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So it's germane to FNC because FNC has "the reputation of conservative bias"? Isarig 15:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is certainly considerable controversy that exists regarding allegations of conservative bias. Why is it so important to scrub Ailes' past from this article when such controversy exists? /Blaxthos 16:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Because that violates WP:NOR and WP:SYN. The controversy is noted in the lead. The controversy is noted in its own section later in the article. And the controversy is noted even further in its own article on WP. The real question is why do we need to overegg the pudding with this original research? Isarig 19:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Stating a verified fact outside the confines of the bias section on a germane subject is not synthesis or original research -- it neither draws nor implies a conclusion. /Blaxthos 19:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We seem to be going around in circles here. Once again: If it makes no synthesis and no point, why do we need it? Why pick this one job, out of the dozen he held previously? If we must mention some past job, why not award-winning Broadway producer? If it neither draws nor implies a conclusion, how is this factoid germane to FNC, unless it is intended to insinuate that his GOP relationship is related to selection by FNC? Isarig 21:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Negative -- saying something like "Fox News Channel exhibits conservative bias because of Roger Ailes' past as a Repblican political consultant" is synthesis. Noting that Ailes has past involvement with the Repblican party draws no conclusion, however it does provide germane information that may be relevant and gives the reader the opportunity to evaluate it for himself. Scrubbing the content entirely shields the reader from something that may be relevant -- we don't want to SAY it's relevant, but we don't want to ignore it either. /Blaxthos 22:05, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The only reason you claim it is germane is that you, Blaxthos, thinks his GOP relationship is relevant to his getting the job at FNC. That is original research which is not allowed. If some 3rd party reliable source makes that claim, we can attribute it to them, but juxtaposing these facts in a way that suggests they are releated is not permitted. Isarig 23:05, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I must disagree with you -- I've made no synthesis, and have only presented information (that may or may not be germane) for the reader to evaluate. That is not a violation of WP:OR/WP:SYN, and I would submit that trying to use those policies to exclude verified information is a misapplication that does no justice to the subject. /Blaxthos 23:12, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've asked you several time how a job he held years ago, in a different industry, is germane to this article, and your response has been that it is germane because of the allegations that FNC is supportive of the GOP. You are welcome to that opinion, but it has no place in the article. If someone other than yourself made that connection, quote their opinion in the relevant section. Otherwise, it is your personal research which is not allowed. Isarig 23:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The statement and assertion is now reliably sourced. I've changed the language to follow inline with the source. /Blaxthos 00:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good. we can now use that, in the relevant section which alleges bias, along with Ailes' response Isarig 04:26, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone else running across the stories about Judith Regan accusing Rupert Murdoch and an executive of FNC of pressuring her to lie to federal investigators regarding her affair with Bernard B. Kerik (purportedly to protect Giuliani)? Olbermann reported it tonight on Countdown, and it's being run on the front page of the NYT website (and will be in print tomorrow no doubt). See Ex-Publisher Says News Corp. Official Wanted Her to Lie to Protect Giuliani. /Blaxthos 01:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You'll find a little more in this British newspaper artical: "Fox News's status as a politically impartial channel is at last being exposed as a fiction". Wayne (talk) 10:06, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking it should be added that bill o'reilly admitted that "fox news tilts right" into this article since he works for the company and admitted that these accusations against the channel were true. I dont have the link proving he said this right now, but if you go back to the article as of one of my revisions from may, 28, 2007, you can find it.Crd721 02:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This information is within the controversies section, but it is not an admission of bias. The full commentary was in relationship to the war in Iraq, not a general belief that FNC is biased. Arzel (talk) 04:05, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bill O'Reilly is a news commentator, he offers the equivalent of a newspaper editorial. Bill O'Reilly is not Fox News, nor is he an employee (there is an element of program ownership, he in effect sells his program to Fox). Raggz (talk) 03:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question...
Anyone think the following two papers should be included in this article in some way:
http://web.missouri.edu/~milyoj/files/QJE%20offprint.pdf (2006)

http://web.missouri.edu/~milyoj/files/Critical%20Review%20offprint.pdf (2005)

News article about 2005 Study - http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-6664.aspx
It seems it would be appropriate given the amount of discussion concerning bias.
Andymease (talk) 02:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ha Ha. I have commented on this before. It is actually already included in the article (ref 5). It is used as a reference that FNC is biased, even though the actual results show that FNC is only biased if you believe that almost all other networks are similary liberally biased. Arzel (talk) 04:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're correct about the study conclusions, at least from what I saw in a cursory overview of the main points. I also see the reference you are talking about though it appears to be from 2004 as documented: ^ Groseclose, Tim and Jeff Milyo (2004). "A Measure of Media Bias". Department of Political Science (UCLA) and Department of Economics (University of Missouri). Retrieved on 2007-10-16

A quick look at the link also showed 2004 as the year of origin which would suggest it is an earlier study than the two I referenced earlier. That reference is also a link to the web archive as the original page is not there anymore. Andymease (talk) 06:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Same study, just at an earlier stage. Hard to convince me NPR Morning Edition is only moderately left (I used to listen to it a lot at work, before turning to audiobook MP3s), and the problem with the Drudge Report being "left" seems to indicate a fundamental problem with the methodology, not merely an idiosyncrasy. It's not what you point out, but whether you point at it with approval or derision that matters. Andyvphil (talk) 10:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I doesn't appear to be fundamentally flawed, only that you believe so because the results don't match your preconcieved notion of what it should be. I have done this kind of statistical analysis and it is valid and has been peer reviewed and published, all that is required of WP. Arzel (talk) 12:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't say that you can't use it, just that it's crap. Lot of crap passes peer review. I've pointed out the flaw and the prime example. Your response is obtunded credentialism. Andyvphil (talk) 10:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Andyvphil and thanks for joining the conversation, though we can't really dismiss the study because of our personal opinions. There are other studies sited as opposite references that some people may not agree with as well. What does everyone think about this one? - http://www.journalism.org/node/8197 - reading the section on Fox News they say "But any sense here that the news channel was uniformly positive about Republicans or negative about Democrats is not manifest in the data." Do you find this more credible? Andymease (talk) 04:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The studies are not placed in the article for support that FNC is biased. The article in no way makes that claim, and if there is language in there stating that, it should be edited. The studies were placed in there, however, to show that there is a widespread perception that FNC is more biased than other news networks. The Project for Excellence in Journalism (or whatever the group is called) is used for the sole and narrow purpose of how widespread the perception is among journalists, of all political persuasions. However, I have no problem of using those studies in the controversies article to balance the accusations of bias mentioned there. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 17:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe I was a little harsh, saying the UMo study is crap. There's undoubtedly some correlation between the pseudo-ADA numbers they use as a proxy for bias, and reality. But there's no way to validate the results. They admit the Drudge number is wrong and come up with an ad hoc explanation. They think the NPR number is right and see no need for an ad hoc explanation. I think they're wrong and do need an explanation for why NPR's leftism isn't fully reflected, and as far as I can see they have no scientific basis for asserting their opinion on that is better than mine. Andyvphil (talk) 11:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for looking out! OfForByThePeople (talk) 21:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I propose this language for the LEAD: One study determined that the Fox News Special Report with Brit Hume was in a statistical dead heat as the "most centrist" news program in America.^[1] The source is reliable and this conclusion is contextually important. Raggz (talk) 22:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, characterize Fox News Special Report with Brit Hume as 'Centrist' - that way people will understand that Wikipedia is just as reliable as a source of information as is Fox News. Dlabtot (talk) 23:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have already stated to several people that this study says that, and that that ref is currently being misused. You are funny Dlabtot, you assume people that WP is a reliable source of information now.  :) Arzel (talk) 00:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually no, I don't assume that, which is one of the reasons I didn't say it or imply it. Dlabtot (talk) 00:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless, the source says that. (Does anyone say otherwise?) The source is reliable. (Does anyone say otherwise?) Therefore it may be included. (Does anyone say otherwise?) Raggz (talk) 04:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As anyone who watches Fox political coverage knows, they've become quite fond of using Frank Luntz's focus groups with dial testers, which are essentially a running measure of how positively the group responds during a debate or speech second by second. Although I can understand why a politician watching would find this immensely useful and the network claims it is very popular among viewers, doesn't it seem a bit like the way TV shows used to (still do?) add in fake audience laughter as a cue to viewers for when to laugh? Honolo (talk) 02:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please use citations for any additions otherwise its WP:OR. Thanks, --Tom 15:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I removed a bunch of unsourced material. Again, I am not disputing this material per say, its more about providing sources rather than watching the show and doing OR based on what we see. Anyways, --Tom 15:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed original research material again, thanks, --Tom 14:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An editor has now twice tried to insert the following language into the article:

There has never been a serious study or objective examination proving the network has a right-wing bias. In fact, a December 2007 study/examination by the nonpartisan media watchdog group, the Center for Media and Public Affairs found that Fox New's evaluations of all Democratic presidential candidates combined was 51% positive and 49% negative, while the networks evaluations of the Republican presidential candidates 51% negative and 49% positive. The study, however, did find that Fox's coverage was more balanced than its counterparts on the broadcast networks.

A cursory examination of the source reveals that the founder of this "nonpartisan media watchdog group" is actually a contributor to FNC. As such, any claims made are suspect and are a conflict of interest; we certainly should not allow such massive claims to be added to the article based on work done by them. Reverted (twice). /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 13:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is not up to you to decide what is a conflict of interest. Arzel (talk) 15:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dude, the founder of the group is on FNC payroll. It's clealy COI and inappropriate. Reverted once more. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 17:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The group and founder have been described as non-partisan by several groups (evidenice per the WP article on them). Unless you have clear evidence that this is somehow biased there is no reason for exclusion. Additionally, it only states he contributes to FNC. There is no evidence he is employed by FNC. Arzel (talk) 20:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Besides, the lead is not be saying that there IS a bias, only that there is a widespread perception of a bias, and that FNC denies any bias. Arguing whether the perception is true or false in the lead is inappropriate. The better place for that discussion would be the controversies article with a brief summary here. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 20:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arzel (talk · contribs) and Deaniack (talk · contribs) have repeatedly insisted on inserting the following language into the article:

There has never been a serious study or objective examination proving the network has a right-wing bias. In fact, a December 2007 study/examination by the nonpartisan media watchdog group, the Center for Media and Public Affairs found that Fox New's evaluations of all Democratic presidential candidates combined was 51% positive and 49% negative, while the networks evaluations of the Republican presidential candidates 51% negative and 49% positive. The study, however, did find that Fox's coverage was more balanced than its counterparts on the broadcast networks.

I believe this is massively inappropriate for the following reasons:

1. The founder of the Center for Media and Public Affairs is a paid contributor of Fox News Channel, and has a complete conflict of interest. As such, any "study" is suspect (negative results wouldn't bode well for his continued tenure at FNC).
2. The language "There has never been a serious study or objective examination" is subjective and original research.
3. "Balance" is relative.
4. The Center for Media and Public Affairs does not pass our reliable source guideline. Additionally, the article on the group is completely unreferenced.

Please comment below. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with the above comments completely. Unless there is some evidence that Lichter had any input into the report, its a red herring. At best, you are implying conflict of interest and malfeasance at worst, when there is no evidence to suggest either, except your own personal feelings. Balance is the antitheses of relative thought. The WP:RS argument does not hold water either. The Center for Media and Public Affairs has been used by many other organizations and media outlets aside from Fox, and certainly is more reliable a source than MMFA, which currently dominates the criticism fork of this article. Torturous Devastating Cudgel (talk) 22:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. According to WP:Summary the blurb should go into the controversies article, with a brief summary here. Also, if the study is being put forward as proof of something, I'd agree that it is improper. However, if it is being used to simply state that a study took place found that the perception of bias many people have is without merit, I don't see how it can be kept out of the article. Every significant viewpoint should be included in the article, under WP:NPOV. If there are reliable sources attacking the study on the grounds you mentioned, that should be in the controversies article as well.
2. Agreed, that is editor opinion and would need to be sourced.
3. If it is simply a re-telling of the study, and the study used that language, then its reliably sourced, and fine.
4. I'm not sure why you feel this way, the contributor work of Lichter shouldn't disqualify the entire Center. Which portion of RS does CMPA fail? Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 23:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clarrification - Arzel has not repeatedly insisted upon that version. I restored a neutral version one time. Arzel (talk) 23:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arzel is correct, he reverted once. My apologies for not being clear. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I should be more clear about my problems with the text. For one, there will never be proof of bias -- it's inherently subjective, and saying things like "There has never been a serious study or objective examination" both disparages other studies with different findings and implies that this study is correct. In academia (and every other field) the direct involvement of the group studying something with the subject being studied is automatically a conflict of interest and is an immediate disqualifier. In fact, in most cases (including our legal system) even the appearance of COI mandates recusion. Beyond all of that, the allegations of bias go far beyond a simple examination of the micro-issue of "evaluation of current US presidential candidates"... cum hoc, ergo propter hoc -- even if the study is correct, it certainly doesn't logically follow that bias must not exist. I don't object completely to having opposing views, but I have a serious problem with the language that is currently being introduced, and I really feel that the COI problem necessatates more objective sourcing. Hope this helps. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the initial wording was inappropriate. However, that the study be automatically disqualified because Licther is a contributor to FNC is a bit of a stretch. Medical research (which I do) often involves situations where those doing the research work for and report on the institution they work for. I have been part of several published articles that would fall into this category. Now you may disagree with the study, you may feel Lichther is biased (many of the same sites which already dislike FNC do). But CMPA has had its research publised in national newspapers and cited in professional journals for many years. Besides, it is not like this research is saying "Proof FNC is not biased!", which is along the lines I think you may be thinking. It is a general report on the 2008 presidential election, and its findings to this point. It is certainly a less biased study than the propaganda research on BOR (questionable null hypothesis). Alos, compared or some of the stuff put out by FAIR and MM, both whom target FNC with their critism, how can you keep this out while keeping their studies in? Arzel (talk) 16:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Using phrases like "propaganda research" certainly doesn't move the discussion forward, especially since this discussion isn't about other organizations' studies. Newspapers are not peer reviewed journals; I would like to see some supporting evidence for you claim that their studies have been published in professional journals (which, I assume, you mean are peer reviewed). Regarding your question "how can you keep this out while keeping [other] studies in", it's very simple -- the other studies aren't done by persons who are also paid by FNC. Again, that is an immediate disqualifier in any field I can think of (academia, legal, scientific) -- you can't get paid by a subject you're studying and expect people to assume that your results will be neutral/objective/unbiased. Suppose you published a paper that said your employer (contract or full-time) was dishonest or biased... how long do you think you'd keep your job? You can't expect people to believe your results are honest if you're in bed with the subject, bottom line. It's not academically honest. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You can believe what you want. I am listed as an author on several papers published in major peer reviewed medical journals. I have been doing statistical analysis for over 10 years at a major medical institution, and the simple fact is that many studies would violate your COI implications. To avoid bias people in my profession (statisticians) abide by a code of conduct that they report the results in an unbiased manner. The peer review process helps maintain this standard by rejecting publications which appear to violate these standards. Occasionally I have run into situations where the results of analysis were exactly opposite of what thought to be the desired outcome, and those "in charge" wished to stop the publishing of the results, however we published them anyway, and no one was fired. I suspect if they would have been fired the eventual lawsuit would have been substantial, and the results would have been published anyway. Occasionally people do violate this code of conduct and are thereafter rejected by the scientific community. You are really grasping for straws here. As for Lichter here are some of his peer reviewed publications. I suspect you won't be able to read anything more than the abstract unless you have a subscription to the publication.

[[6]] [[7]] [[8]] [[9]] [[10]] [[11]] Arzel (talk) 20:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to add, how do you know that Lichter is a paid contributor? The defintion of contributor is "a person who gives to a charity or cause: benefactor, benefactress, donator, donor, giver." Being a contributor does not nessecitate that he is paid. Arzel (talk) 20:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you serious? Are you really arguing that, in this context, "contributor" is being used to mean a "benefactor to a charity"? Comments like those are what makes it really hard for me to take the things you say seriously and continues to erode my ability to assume good faith. I doubt anyone here really thinks that he isn't paid for his work for FNC, and arguing pointless symantics of language makes me think you're just out to use whatever argument might work. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did not define the word, so do not jump down my throat, perhaps you should take it up with Webster. In the world of academia, of which Lichter is, people often contribute (in the sense that they give) time and expertise to help further research in a given area. Do you have proof that he is actually paid by FNC to do this research? I have yet to find anything that explicitly states as such. Research from CMPA has been used for at least the last couple of decades. Lichter himself teaches at GM, and has done research through them. WP:RS clearly makes him a RS. Seriously, I cannot believe this is even a discussion. MM actively attacks FNC on a daily basis, and yet their word is treated like gospel, while a professor with numerous publications and scholarly works associated to him is dismissed because those same leftist organization say he is biased? Is this the twilight zone? Arzel (talk) 03:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So you are willing to grant that the COI concern is more valid if he is indeed on the FNC dime, right (otherwise why bring it up)? As it turns out, "Robert Lichter [is] president of the Washington-based Center for Media and Public Affairs and a paid consultant to Fox", according to this article in the Columbia Journalism Review. Those talking heads you see on TV who are giving their opinion... they're compensated. All of them. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 10:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you willing to grant that Lichter has several peer reviewed publications and is a professor at a major university through which many of those publications arise? I read the altnet story, it is linked on several blogs and other sources. It is also the only source which makes that connection, usually as a way to dismiss the research without actually arguing the study (the perfect strawman argument). Just because someone may or may not be compensated for their time (which I don't believe is always the case), doesn't mean they are biased. By your logic, everyone that gives their opinion is really just giving the opinion of the news channel they are working for. Is the whole world you live in a giant conspiracy theory? Regardless, the simple fact is that this is a WP:RS. You don't believe what it says, fine. You think it is biased, fine, there are several sources to make a remark stating such, we can do so. But if you are going to fight this because you feel he is so biased as to make the article hopelessly POV (ok not you, but G said as much), then we have some serious problems with all of the other biased sources. You do realize the irony here. You and a few others, are trying to srub information from this article (well the related article at least) because of your own opinions regarding a WP:RS which passes official WP policy. Arzel (talk) 18:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't believe you're still trying to argue that "consultants" for major news networks volunteer their time. That's laughable, especially in the face of the Columbia Journalism Review as a source. Reference your "strawman" comment... I'm not sure you understand what a strawman argument is. I have not stated your position at all (and certainly haven't tried to use my characterization of it to more easily knock it down); I have simply shown that the study has serious COI problems and can't be included for that reason. Regarding the rest of your diatribe, one must not prove that a conflict of interest necessitates bias; one must only show that there is a relationship between the supposedly objective researcher and the subject being researched -- lawyers, judges, and scientists routinely recuse themselves from cases and studies for the mere appearance of a COI exactly because of this reason... they don't want the validity of their hard work/research being questioned over a possible COI. Whether bias exists or not is irrelevant; the mere existance of such an inappropriate connection taints the validity of this study. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:49, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have been asked to join this discussion so here are my comments. The study is inappropriate for inclusion for the reasons explained by Blaxthos at length, so there is no need for me to repeat his words. Additionally, its inclusion is a violation of NPOV in general and the undue weight clause specifically, as there is a short paragraph glossing over years of complaints and criticisms, followed by a paragraph twice as long using a biased study to dismiss the preceding paragraph. Mentioning the study might be appropriate given the following conditions: 1) a reliable source is found showing someone other than Fox and the study's authors take it seriously as an reliable academic work, and 2) the study is mentioned briefly and at appropriate length in the context of an overall examination of criticism of Fox's bias. In its current state inclusion is impossible. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 21:35, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it doesn't belong in the main article (as does Ramsquire). I have moved it there, so perhaps discussion should move there as well. CMPA has been publishing this report since 1988, and Lichter has many peer reviewed publications (as I noted above) so the question about it being a reliable source is answered. Arzel (talk) 17:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How could they publish a report on FNC starting in 1988 when FNC didn't debut until 1995? If you agree that it doesn't belong, why did you re-insert it? In any case, it's COI and inappropriate no matter where it appears. I'm sure that as this RFC progresses others will help you understand such as well. The discussion should/will remain here, as the RFC is open and consensus is not yet clear. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do a little research, not all of their work is FNC specific. They only added FNC to their report recently because of it's percieved controversial nature. Regardless of any of these facts, this source falls within the highest levels of RS. They are listed within George Mason University under their research areas. Arzel (talk) 19:32, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think we all agree that if the study is being used to refute the list of cristicisms in the article, then it is inappropriate, and also fails WP:RS and WP:NPOV. However, if it is simply presenting an alternative viewpoint, and a significant one (as it is the viewpoint of the article subject) then it belongs--in the controversies article per the summary style of Wikipedia. The criticisms of the CMPA belong as well. Any language which gives this study primacy over other research or presents it as authoritive also should be excised. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 18:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The COI problems persist regardless of the FNC-related article in which the study is cited (and is necessarily suspect/inappropriate). Studies that purport to be scientific (as this one does) do not offer "viewpoints" -- editorials do that, scientific research does not; otherwise it moves from analysis (objective) to opinion (subjective), which (ironically) would fit the COI concern perfectly. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First, I don't see the conflict of interest you mention. I will assume that Lichter and his group do not lose their ethical obligations since he receives a check from FNC. I am just not that cynical. I'd be more inclined to see a conflict of interest if Fox commissioned the study. Second, please forgive the inartful writing on my part. "Presenting" should be "Supporting". I never meant to claim the studies in and of themselves present a viewpoint. Here (meaning the controversies article), there are two viewpoints presented and this study supports the one of the article subject. As both sides should be presented, it is totally proper to include this study along with the concerns raised about potential conflicts of interest and/or methodology problems. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 20:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with Ramsquire, Arzel, and TDC on this issue. The source meets the requirements of WP:RS and can be used to source a common viewpoint that should be represented under WP:NPOV. Without evidence indicating the study is biased or has been influenced by FNC, there is no reason to exclude it from the article under guise of WP:COI. - auburnpilot talk 21:02, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just for clarity, I'm not saying WP:COI has any relevance here. The conflict of interest of which I speak is the generally accepted practice of excluding "objective" sources that have prior relationships with the subjects in question (as in academia and legal professions). /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:16, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is a fringe viewpoint, but I don't see any problem with it being included, since the assertion that FNC is in reality 'fair and balanced' is so ludicrous as to be recognized as false by the overwhelming majority of honest people. This is just another example of a pointless political argument on Wikipedia. Face it, people know that Fox is biased, and citing a bogus study that claims they aren't isn't going to change anyone's mind. Leave it in if you want, but realize that all you are doing is making Wikipedia less credible. Dlabtot (talk) 03:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Please comment below. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)" I do not understand your question. Raggz (talk) 04:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These two statements from the two articles appear to contradict each other:

• From Fox News Channel:

"Fox News currently leads the cable news market in the United States.(15)"

• From CNN:

"CNN rates as America's number one cable news source.(3)"

I'm not sure whether these statements are both true and based on different statistics/demographics, whether they are outdated/untrue, or what the case is. Either way they should be looked at and altered if need be or otherwise clarified to avoid confusion. --Alegoo92 (talk) 00:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 15 is the end of the year statistics from 2007. Ref 3 In terms of cumulative (Cume) Nielsen ratings or "unique viewers", CNN rates as America's number one cable news source is from early 2007 and is a report on 2006 statistics. Ref 3 states that FNC dominated the three major news networks, however CNN retained the largest number of unique viewers. Both statements are correct and technically not conflicting. If one is only to use the Neilson base ratings then the CNN statement is not currently correct, however it is not technically incorrect as currently stated. The best bet would be to update the current CNN statement with the end of 2007 statistics. I suspect a new "State of the Media" report will be out shortly with more current results. Arzel (talk) 04:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Marketing slogans aside, the most current data (I've seen) continues to suggest that CNN has the largest number of unique viewers, and FNC has the highest ratings (viewers watch for longer). I've also heard it explained as "CNN has a larger reach, FNC has a longer duration" -- CNN viewers (of which there are more than FNC viewers) watch in short bursts, whereas FNC viewers are more dedicated and spend longer segments of time watching. Hope this helps. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 17:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does CNN still have more unique viewers than FNC? Probably, however, we can't say that CNN still leads FNC by citing 2006 statistics when comparing to the end of 2007 statistics, that would be OR. I did a search on the 2008 state of the media to find out the results from 2007 and I was not able to find it. When that report comes out we should put in what it says. Arzel (talk) 18:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it wouldn't be "OR", it would simply be factually incorrect. Slow down with the accusations, Tex. I agree, just wait until the 2007 stats are out. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody has done anything on this in well over a week. I am removing the tag on the mainpage. See my comment on the CNN talkpage. Rooot (talk) 14:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Someone should add a link to the bias allegations section, as this documentary was all about Fox, Murdoch and right wing bias. IMDB link - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0418038/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.102.16 (talk) 12:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Outfoxed, a partisan documentary, deserves no more mention here than The Great Global Warming Swindle deserves mention on Global Warming. ~ S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 04:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How come Australia is colored on the map, But Australia is not named on the list where fox is broadcast. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theoneintraining (talk • contribs) 22:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A recent editor added that FNC is biased in favor of Catholics and Evangelicals. He/She included a reference, however that reference is not accessible by most people, however if it is true it is a reliable source (being a university press). I did some additional searches, and have been unable to find accusations of promotion of Catholic views, not even MM is criticizing FNC for positive Catholic bias, there are a couple of posts about anti-catholic bias on FNC (which is ironic). Are there additional sources that talk about this? Arzel (talk) 06:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

After a little searching it would appear this editor has a history of confrontation regarding what they consider Chritisan influence, specifically in India. Arzel (talk) 06:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. I'm not arguing for inclusion, but I would like to take a moment to point out a few obvious problems:

1. Your argument seems to be focused on the Catholic angle, where the added text and source seem to lean more towards Evangelical Christians (which you left wholly unaddressed).
2. "He/She included a reference, however that reference is not accessible by most people" Really? A simple google search shows that the book (especially the part that was used as a source) is readily available via google books. How many people reading Wikipedia won't have access to google?
3. Once again (third or fourth time now)... There is no requirement that a reliable source be accessible by most people (which I assume you mean hyperlinked). Reliable and accessable via the web are not terms that have any relevance to one another.
4. is a reliable source (being a university press) - WP:RS has no special caveat for or against "university press", AFAIK.
5. The editors' edit history has absolutely no relevance. I find it particularly enlightening that not only is it the first thing you went after, but that you took the time to actually reply to yourself in pointing it out. Comment on content, not contributors.

Again, wow. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 10:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WOW is right, instead of responding civily to my comments, Blaxthos show just what kind of person he is by making a huge rant against me. Just what the heck is your problem?

1. What are you talking about, I specifically mentioned Evangelicals in my opening comment, my second comment deals with Christians, (which is the code for evangelicals that this editor uses, try doing a little research).
2. See next.
3. Again, what are you talking about. I specifically stated it is a reliable source, if it is true. However it is also a challengable statement so read up on WP:RS because you are wrong and I wasn't able to find anything related to the statement the editor was making. And please don't give me your hypocritical comments regarding what has to be hyperlinked, when the shoe has been on the other foot you have had a completely different view.
4. Can't you read? I said that it was a reliable source.
5. The editors history does have relevance when it is not easilly possible to read the supposed reference to see what he is talking about. I placed a message at their talk page, and noticed that almost all of their messages are regarding christian influence, for which this person is very strongly against. Now I don't have a problem with that, or even with their views, but when someone has a problem with Catholics and specifically Evangelical Christians places charged comments that FNC promotes the view of Catholics and Evangelicals (and although doesn't say it doesn't promote the views of other religions) with a source which you can't easily read you have the right to question the motives of the editor. So get off your high horse, you question my motives on pretty much a daily basis. Arzel (talk) 15:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. Once you mentioned "Evangelicals" in the first sentence, you never again mentioned them. You railed against the editor's contribution later in your original post, however you only talked about Catholicism and how FNC isn't really pro-Catholic (so the entire contribution is questionable. While I tend to agree with your assertion about Catholicism (FNC is not pro-Catholic), I will not discount the entire contribution part & parcel.
2. Again you assert things like "it is not easilly possible to read the supposed reference to see what he is talking about", which is completely false. All you need to do is google for the author (which was supplied in the reference provided) -- John Arnold Schmalzbauer, and you get almost the entire book to read for free via google. Check this out, you can even search within the book. Searching for "Fox News" brings up...
3. the actual source, which seems easily possible to read the "supposed" reference to me. Beyond that, the Schmalzbaur "supposed reference" actually has footnotes that cite his sources.
4. "you are wrong and I wasn't able to find anything related to the statement the editor was making" - you must not have looked very hard. See the hyperlink in #3. By the way, I've never said sources need to be web accessable -- that's an assertion you've tried at least three or four times now. Either show us a policy/guideline that backs up your position, or stop asserting falsehoods.
5. You said "supposed reference". For one, a University Press does not automatically imply reliability (go read WP:RS again). However, in this instance the source seems to do a great job of referencing his work and seems to have a good track record for reliability and accuracy. My point was simply to not automatically assume that WP:RS is linked to a "University Press" (which you did). Once you decide something is a reliable source, you need to stop putting in qualifiers like "supposed reference" (which you also did).
6. "The editors history does have relevance when it is not easilly[sic] possible to read the supposed reference to see what he is talking about." Well, as evidenced above it is "easily possible to read the supposed reverence", so I guess his contribution history doesn't matter much after all, right? Or maybe WP:NPA was in effect the whole time, and you should have always commented on content, not contributors.

So, to summarize, you've taken a contribution from (as you described above) a reliable source and in the same breath started calling it a "supposed reference" and removed it entirely, claiming that it is impossible to read and find out what the "supposed reference" actually says when the source is freely available via google books, and is itself referenced. You've now claimed you have the right to attack the editor who inserted it based on a false assertion that the source isn't available. That is the sort of behavior that makes me ashamed for you, even if you're not willing to be ashamed for yourself. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Blaxthos, you should be ashamed of yourself, you are starting to sound a lot like Olbermann, I mean "WOW". A point of clarification, I never said it was "impossible" to read, I said it was not easy to read. Furthermore, I didn't say it shouldn't belong or couldn't belong, or anthing like that. If you would have read what I said instead of focusing on critiqueing what I said you would have seen that I questioned it because it made a claim I have never heard before, referencing a book which is not easy for the average reader to find. Now I will grant that when a book is used it is fine to reference the book without a hyperlink, however when that book is used to make a questionable claim or a claim that is likely to be challanged you have a scenario where someone can put into an article their own POV backed up by a reliable source, and as a published book I don't see how this would ever fail RS. I was not even questioning the good faith of this editor, although given the entire scheme of things it is interesting to note that they have been involved in some disputes related to religious bias. As to the Evangelicals or Catholics, it matters little, it is a Red Herring to the greater issue of bias in favor of Christian values (which is why I didn't further the point). Seriously, this was a simple of issue of if it should be mentioned, yet you turned it into a huge bash against me, good job! Arzel (talk) 05:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The more pertinent issue isn't whether it is reliably sourced, it's whether the view in the source represents a significant viewpoint. Perhaps, it does but I have not seen this particular charge before (not that I am the arbiter of such things). Also, if it is a significant viewpoint, the edit seemed to state the opinion as fact, when it should have been attributed to the author in question. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 17:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for bringing the discussion back on track, Ramsquire. My major point was the ad hominem basis for the argument towards exclusion by Arzel, and the misrepresentation of the availability of the source. As stated in my original response, I'm not arguing for inclusion. I tend to agree; should there be additional indications of this being a significant viewpoint it might need revisiting, but for now it seems more of a fringe issue. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 17:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes thanks Ramsquire, considering Blaxthos is the one that took it off track to begin with, and thanks to Blaxthos for getting in another sly little attack on me. Arzel (talk) 05:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Juuuust a little clarification here. No attack was made, Arzel... I simply challenged the logic you used to reach your conclusion (ad hominem irrelevancies) and your blatant misrepresentation of both the availability of the source and the need for it to be easily available via the web. If you don't like being challenged then I suggest being a little more forthright regarding the things you say. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I took Arzel's saying that the source isn't accessible as meaning that since it isn't hyperlinked, regular readers couldn't as easily verify the source as if it was in an online newpaper article. Turns out it is in Google books, and if someone wanted to go an extra step they could have it rather easily. I don't think Arzel was trying to mislead anyone, in this case. As for the prior history of the editor, Blaxthos is right we should comment on content not the contributor. But there are trolls at this project and knowing that an editor has a history of blocks, personal attacks and warnings on a single issue is relevant so that the talk pages are not wasted feeding trolls. To sum up... Blaxthos and Arzel you guys should really look to get some kind of dispute resolution, the arguments between you two span several talk pages, articles, and months of time. I know I may live in a glass house here, as I've also had problems with Arzel, but this constant arguing between you two is getting worse considering the lengthy replies based on a relatively simply issue that we all seem to agree on. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 23:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why does the opening paragraph to this entry mention that some people criticize it for having a conservative bias? This may be a criticism that is well know, but it has no place in the open of the entry, it should be in a criticisms section. I went to the CNN entry to see if it was simlilarly mentioned in its opening paragraph that some people see it as having a liberal bias, an no such mention was made. I do not know if there is a wikipedia standard to cover this. Understand that I am not trying to get the comments made that Fox News is conservative removed, rather that they do not belong in the opening paragraph. Nor is it sanitizing the article to ask that they be moved to a more perinent section. Any one else have comments on this Rocdahut (talk) 09:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please check out the FAQ at the top of this page, that specifically addresses the concerns you now raise. Please note that we have had at least two (or three) requests for comment to find a consensus version. Also, please consult the governing guideline, WP:LEAD, which specifically states that a brief mention of notable controversies is appropriate and prescribed. I would guess that allegations of bias in the CNN article may not be covered in the lead because, compared to FNC, there is significantly less controversy (on that issue). /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 12:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The brief reference seems appropriate to me, the debate about whether Fox News is more balanced than other media, or conservative slanted is central to any discussion of the channel. If you feel the CNN page needs a similar reference, you could discuss that at the CNN talk page. Dean B (talk) 05:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the brief reference to criticism is going to remain in the opening of the entry (which it should not!) it should not simply note what "critics" have said and then how Fox has responded. If it mentions "critics" from one side of the debate on bias, it should mention "critics" from the other side too... not just Fox's response. I have added that information. We could even take Fox's response out because the sentence is about the view of critics, not the view of Fox. The necessity to give a balanced showing of critic's opinions is the reason why I think the criticism information belongs further down in the page where it can get more space for adequate treatment. I also took the reference to the founder and CEO out of the "criticism" paragraph in the opening section and moved it to the "founding information" paragraph. The founder should be listed with other info about the launch of the network, not with "crticism". The opening entry was obviously biased... and still is even just by including criticism in the opening entry. Jsn9333 (talk) 19:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]