Armenia Start‑class

Shusha massacre is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Archives

Archive 1

At first, special for Parishan: pls read the talk carefully to not ask why tags were "removed without any rationale". Im repeating my explanation (which never answered!) esp. for you:"These tags were added some months ago and as we see, no any discusssions are going on. Please, lets assume good faith and finish al last our talk. To Grandmaster and all other users: pls add here: a) what sentences are discussed (point by point), according to which Wiki rule, also are there other sourced versions which we can use! Just concrete points!". De Waal is a modern journalist, not scolar and his unsourced number of those who were killed in 1920 is not a historiographical fact. Anyways we already added the quotes (and numbers, as he aslo marks some hundreds) by him to the article, so no need to repeat it everywhere. Anyways if youre not aggree pls at first leave a note for Admin's "Reliable sources" section. The version of Armenian revolt is not the only one (a too much dubious "Hrono" site, again added by Grandmaster, says fightings happened before pogrom, not revolt), and it is related to the Pogroms background, as pogroms, killings of peaceful population, burning of the whole Armenian quarter have nothing related to a "revolt suppression". And the most of reliable sourced represented here dont mark even any fightings by Armenian side so its not seems something notable. Andranikpasha (talk) 22:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Andranikpasha, this probably the twentieth time you removed De Waal from the article. I explained many times that it is a reliable source and cannot be deleted. The same with tags, you cannot remove them without consensus. This article makes many outrageous claims without citing any reliable sources. The tags are to remain until the problems with this article are resolved. Grandmaster (talk) 05:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Its your unexplained editwarring and pogrom denial that must be stopped not my sourced one! Andranikpasha (talk) 13:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please refrain from personal attacks. It is a fact not denied even by Armenian sources that the fighting in the city was initiated by Armenian forces. Now why don't we follow some dispute resolution procedure on this? If you don't mind, I will file a request for mediation today. Please tell me if you agree or not. Grandmaster (talk) 06:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, English edition of de Waal does not have these precise quote:

Terrible pogroms took place in Shusha in 1920 shortly after the Russians left the city because of the economic collapse and civil war. This time Azerbaijani forces crushed the higher, Armenian quarter of the city, burned whole streets and killed hundreds of Armenians...

The original text is in English. Please quote the original instead of making translations. Grandmaster (talk) 08:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster, your continuous citing of de Waal would be both more encyclopedic and more credible if you would start to cite actual page numbers. If you are using a direct quote, you should always give the page in which the quote can be found. Meowy 17:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I will add the page numbers a little later. Now please explain why you removed Hutchinson encyclopedia? Who says that the text should be available online? Here's he quote for you: In 1920, inter-ethnic clashes in the Karabakh town of Shusha resulted in the deaths of 30,000 Armenians and 15,000 Azeris. Now please restore the reference that you deleted, you cannot delete it just like that. Thanks. Grandmaster (talk) 17:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, it is not "Hutchinson encyclopedia"; secondly, to see the article requires a paid subscription - wikipedia recommends the avoidance of such sources; thirdly, it is a tertiary source, again wikipedia says to avoid such sources. Meowy 00:42, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are also cherry-picking casualty figures. You wish to continue to use the laughable de-Waall figure of 500 Armenian dead, yet you do not wish to use the online encyclopedia's figure of "30,000 Armenians" dead, choosing only to use the figure for "15,000 Azeri" casualties. Meowy 01:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First, it is Hutchinson encyclopedia. You can access the full text by searching the line that I quoted in google. Second, the use of tertiary sources is not prohibited, third, the number of 30,000 is in the intro, and fourth, the number of 500 is the most realistic and is cited in addition to de Waal by the Armenian scholar Richard Hovanissian. Now who is that IP reverting to your version? Grandmaster (talk) 06:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the pogrom of Shusha's Armenian population, there was no pogrom of the towns Muslim population so your inclusion of an unverified figure for "Azeri" deaths, taken from a tertiary source that cannot be readily checked, is both unencyclopedic and off-topic. Also, your revert reads "resulted according to various estimates in 500[12][dubious – discuss] to 20,000 Armenian[13][4][14][15][16][dubious – discuss] and 15,000 Azerbaijani deaths" - I see no 30,000 figure there. Meowy 17:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, the more I read the version you desire, the more un-amusing it becomes. 15,000 Azeri deaths are certain, according to you, yet 20,000 Armenian deaths are "dubious", and the 30,000 Armenian deaths figure (derived from the same source as your 15,000 Azeris figure) isn't worthy of mention at all. Meowy 18:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Check the line right after that one. It quotes some Italian author who claims the number of 30,000, and there's no {{dubious}} after that. You can add it to both figures. Grandmaster (talk) 10:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've changed the 20,000 Armenian deaths figure to the 30,000 given in Hutchinson encyclopedia. And since I take it you believe that the Hutchinson encyclopedia figures are not dubious, I've removed the dubious tag that was placed against the Armenian deaths figure when it was 20,000. You may want the dubious tag to remain, but it could only remain if you also placed the same tag against the Azeri deaths figure since both figures are derived from the same sentence of the same source. Doing this would also mean that you considered the whole Hutchinson encyclopedia citation to be dubious, which would make your earlier argument for the validity of its inclusion somewhat strange (to say the least). Meowy 20:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the IP reverting to Meowy's version, I have raised this on WP:AN/AE as there is scope within WP:SOCK to treat IPs or probable socks as one entity. I am on the lookout for IPs editing on any AA related topic, but on this specific article I am too involved to take any action. John Vandenberg (talk) 07:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There was no deception or "sock-puppetry" in the revert you talk about, and your implication of bad faith is completely unjustified and reveals much about your character. I did the revert. However, unknown to me, my account must have timed-out and my IP address appeared rather than my name. Meowy 17:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone have any other reference for the 15,000? It's statistically impossible, it represents all the Muslim population of the town and after the pogrom the town population has fallen to under 15,000, and they were all Muslim until the 40s when the Armenians started repopulating it, and they never managed to represent the proportion of the population prior to the pogroms. From the post-pogrom population there doesn’t seem to be any indication that even a fraction of that figure could ever be substantiated. Had the encyclopedia figures been right, there would have remained no one in the town when we know the Muslim quarter remained intact. Also De Waal's 500 number discredits his entire coverage of the event. Being the only source with that figure, it's a fringe opinion and should be removed. VartanM (talk) 05:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

De Waal is not the only source, Armenian scholar Richard Hovanissian provides the same number. And since de Waal is an author of a critically acclaimed book, his figures cannot be suppressed. All figures with many zeros are dubious, if indeed so many people on either side had died, there would not have been many people left in Karabakh. The figures from de Waal/Hovanissian and Great Soviet Encyclopedia are the most realistic. Blown-up figures come from dubious sources such as Guaita, Babanov and other obscure sources. So the number of 15,000 of Azerbaijani casualties is as good as the number of 20 or 30,000 Armenian casualties. Grandmaster (talk) 06:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, most of the text in the article is copyvio, taken from this Armenian website: [1] everything copied from there should be removed, first, it is copyvio, and second, that website is a partisan source. Grandmaster (talk) 08:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is the original version of the article, created by User:Hu1lee, a sock of the banned user: [2] All the edits prior to this version are by this user. As one can see, this text is verbatim copy from another website, [3] i.e. copyvio. Grandmaster (talk) 08:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster, I even not going to check your "site", as for me its a reality that the most part of the article is written by me (maybe then used by any site I dont care) and the most part is sourced by me. The unsourced part can be deleted by the time. And pls stop attack Armenian sites as partisan (when you need it) and then use the only Armenian historian as a reliable source (for a pogrom denial policy). Mind WP:SOAP. You never cited anything from the Great Soviet Enc.. You can do it as I find nothing on Shusha pogrom there. And note that Huntington and all other encyclopdeias are unreliable (secondary) sources related to the events of historical serious researches (they say nothing about 15000 Azeris). Andranikpasha (talk) 15:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That text was online on that website at least since May 2007, and this article was created in August 2007. So it is unlikely that they copied content from here. From what I understand you admit that you added to the article the text that matches word by word that on another website? And why you are not going check the link? Ok, if you don't want to, I can do it for you. Let's compare the text here and at the website. The text in this article:

On June 4 and June 5, 1919, an armed clash between Armenians and Azeris took place in Shusha, organized and initiated by Governor-General Khosrov bek Sultanov[19][20]. The town was isolated and blockaded, and the Armenian population found itself in acute need of food.[21] The barracks in Khankendi (now named Stepanakert by the local population) were filled with soldiers of the Azerbaijani army, and only a single unit of the British Army was located in the town, which was populated by Muslim Indians. In August 1919, 700 Christian inhabitants of Shusha were killed by Tartars.[22] The Armenian part of Shusha was under siege from the armed Turks. The Armenian forces were not only limited in numbers, but had no weapon cartridges.

Attempts to subjugate Karabakh to Azerbaijan continued to fail[23]; the Armenian National Council of Karabakh remained uncooperative.[24] The shootings on June 4 and 5 ended with casualties on both sides. The British mission in Shusha presented Sultanov's conditions for cease fire to the Armenian side: removal of the Armenian National Council members from the town. On June 5, three members of the Council left Shusha. This was partially due to the involvement of the British soldiers.[25] However, a new wave of violence swept through the neighboring villages of Ghaibalishen, Pahlul and Krkzhan, which were pillaged on June 5 through June 7.[citation needed] About 700 people, mostly uninvolved civilians, were killed in Ghaibalishen.[26]

THE “SHUSHI REVIVAL” FUND website:

On June 4-5, 1919, an armed Armenian-Turkish clash takes place in Shushi, organized and incited by Governor-General Sultanov. The town was isolated and blockaded, and the Armenian population found itself in acute need of food. The barracks in Khankendi (Stepanakert) were filled with soldiers of the Azeri army, and only a single unit of the English army was located in the town, which comprised of Sipayis (?), Muslim Indians. The Armenian part of Shushi was under a siege imposed by the armed Turks. The Armenian forces were not only scarce, but had no weapon cartridges.

The attempts to subjugate Karabakh to Azerbaijan kept failing. The Armenian National Council of Karabakh remained unflinching. Sultanov’s goal was bring Karabagh to its knees through massacres, violence and terror, and he was going to start from Shushi. The shootings of June 4-5 left casualties on both sides. The English mission in Shushi presented to the Armenian side Sultanov’s condition for a ceasefire: removal of the Armenian National Council members from the town. On June 5, three members of the Council left Shushi. The ceasefire was reached partially due to the interference of the English soldiers. But a new wave of violence swept through the neighboring villages of Ghaibalishen, Pahlul and Krkzhan, which were pillaged June 5-7. About 700 people, mostly innocent civilians, were killed in Ghaibalishen.

The text here is a word by word copy from that website, it is obvious. The same with the second paragraph, I can quote all the parts that were copy/pasted from that website. So it is copyvio and as such should be removed. Grandmaster (talk) 06:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More copyvio, second paragraph, almost entirely copied from another website. Only some quotes in the end and the middle are different, and some of those were added by myself. Quotes from this article:

From the beginning of 1920, Governor Sultanov, breaking the terms of the temporary agreement of August 22, 1919, tightened the blockade around Karabakh, through both accumulation of armed forces in the strategically important locations and by arming the Azeri population, attempting to prepare the latter for guerrilla fights.[30][31][13]

In the winter and spring of 1920, Sultanov was well aware of the degree of the Armenian population's armament in Karabakh, which in fact was much more lower than that of the Azeris. One of his dispatches reads: "I think this is the most suitable moment for the final resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh issue, since they have few cartridges available." Armenians were also aware of Sultanov's preparations and tried to resist them.[citation needed]

In the early morning of March 23, 1920, when the Azeri population of Shusha was celebrating Nowruz, an Armenian detachment entered Shusha and attacked the barracks of Azerbaijani army in accordance with an uprising program developed by the Armenian military leaders.

Another version of events regarding the beginning of the pogrom says a Turkish officer tried to disarm a young Armenian and insulted the honor of the Armenian's wife in the man's presence. The young man killed the officer, and his whole family was then killed by the Turkish soldiers accompanying the officer. While the shooting was going on, the Turks called for help from fellow Turks and compatriots.[citation needed]

Some Azeris residing in Shusha, the Azeri soldiers stationed in the town, and other guerrilla warriors sympathetic with the Azeri cause began to destroy the Armenian part of the town; the fires, killings, and looting initiated by the Azeri military and their sympathizers lasted for three days.[citation needed]

The number of casualties was not counted by anyone at the time, nor was the number of Armenian survivors of the siege. According to the 1914 population data, more than 22,000 Armenians lived in Shusha, whereas in 1921, they numbered about 300.[citation needed]

The documented records from the Armenian archives provide evidence that the pogrom of the Armenians in Shusha was thoroughly prepared by the Azerbaijani authorities, under the command of experienced Turkish emissary Khalil Pasha[35][36].[dubious – discuss] Without the purported preparations of the authorities, it is doubtful that a seemingly peaceful population would initiate an attack without some kind of coordination.[37][38].[dubious – discuss]

Now compare it with the text from Armenian website about Shusha [4]:

From the very start of 1920, Governor Sultanov, breaking the terms of the temporary agreement of August 22, 1919, tightened the blockade around Karabagh, not only through accumulation of armed forces in the strategically important locations, but also by arming the Turkish population, preparing the latter for guerrilla fights.

In the winter and spring of 1920, Sultanov, as always, was well aware of the degree of the Armenian population’s armament in Karabakh, which in fact was much worse than that of the Turks. One of his dispatches reads: “I think this is the most suitable moment for the final resolution of the Nagorno Karabagh issue, since they have few cartridges available.

In the early morning of March 23, 1920, when the Turkish population of Shushi was celebrating Novruz Bairam, a small Armenian detachment entered Shushi and tried to take over the barrack in accordance with an uprising program developed by the Karabakh self-defense commanders.

There is another version of what exactly started the massacre, according to which a Turkish officer tried to disarm a young Armenian and insulted the honor of the Armenian’s wife in the guy’s presence. The young man killed the officer, and then his whole family was slaughtered by the Turks accompanying the officer. While the shooting was going on, the Turks called for help from their companions-in-arms and brothers in faith.

The Turkish part of Shushi, the army located in the town, the “guerrilla” gangs that had arrived from other locations, seized by the rage of killing and plundering, ceaselessly and mercilessly slaughtered, destroyed, burnt and looted the Armenian part of the town for three days.

Nobody did or could have counted the number of victims and those who miraculously survived the ordeal. Let us mention again that, according to the 1914 data, more than 22 thousand Armenians lived in Shushi, whereas in 1921 their number was about 300.

The documental records provide more than sufficient evidence for stating that the massacre of the Armenians in Shushi was thoroughly prepared by the Azerbaijanian authorities, under the command of experienced Turkish emissaries (Khalil pasha). Otherwise it would be hard to believe that the peaceful population that was amid sending its prayers to God could in a wink of an eye, without arms, rush out for an attack upon hearing the shooting noise, and start the beastly destruction of everybody and everything.

As one can see, the differences are very insignificant, and most changes to the wording were made by myself and Parishan, as for example removal of words like "beastly", etc. So this is a clear copyvio and a violation of wiki rules. Instead of copying text from other websites, we should write our own article. So whatever was copied from elsewhere needs to be removed asap. Grandmaster (talk) 06:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster, is it your words "most of the text in the article is copyvio"? Surely the texts you represented (they are right now different, but remember its about ONE EVENT, we can reword, never hope we will rewrite facts to have a "copirighted story"...) are not the real most part greated by me. So pls be more carefull during your discussions. Just differ most part and little part, majority views and minority views, etc. its not hard to do. (PS- Pls answer to other questions too if you're interested). Andranikpasha (talk) 10:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The text that I quoted is absolutely identical, the variations are very minor. Moreover, many references are copied from that website too. So if you agree that the quoted parts are copyvio, they should be removed. The text that was not copied from that website can remain, but whatever is copied should go. Grandmaster (talk) 10:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can you cite what the reference was copied from the sites you marked? If the represented parts are looks too much alike we can do some copyedit (Ill do it as Hu1lee was blocked) no any reason to delete. I prefer if you assume a little more good faith as we both know a user who used to copy and past to Wiki whole articles:) So why do not try to show a little more tolerancy to others? Andranikpasha (talk) 11:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have many times asked for the quotes or scans of this source:

Нагорный Карабах в 1918—1923 гг.: сборник документов и материалов. Ереван, 1992.

Now see how many times it was used here and it is the same source quoted here: [5]

It was simply copied from there, and apparently you never read it. If you had, you would have provided the quotes. Grandmaster (talk) 11:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, Grandmaster, sorry, but again you're not right. At first, the marked book is not referenced, but included in Bibliography (among many other materials). Also admin Jayvdb (who supports the Azerbaijani user's view's here) already asked at the same talk page and were answered. why to not read the talk at first? Here the full quote from the discussion:

This reference "Нагорный Карабах в 1918—1923" is used a lot in the article. Can someone please provide a English version of that citation; I need to know what authors/editors were involved in it, and who published it. I would also like to see scans, otherwise it is all unverifiable. John Vandenberg 08:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Anyone will need to waste a lot of money and time to scan and translate all the materials he used in Wiki. The problem is also that I leaved this book in my apartment as Im now in another country for some research. Anyways I promise to try to do something and be back during a few days. Andranikpasha 21:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

At the official site of State Archive of Armenia I found a publication which seems to be similar to the marked book:"The Armenian massacres in the Baku and Elizavetpol governorates in 1918-1920", a collection of documents and materials, State Archive of the Republic of Armenia (official publication), Yerevan, 2003, 523 p. (in Armenian and Russian), ed. Dr A. Virabyan. ISBN 99930-78-16-6. I can mark some of materials (in Russian) which are similar to those used in the article: N 198 A letter by G. Bagaturov to the Armenian National Council of Baku about the siege of Karabakh Armenians and necessity of help N 271 The report of the informational bureau of Armenian National Cauncil of Baku to the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Armenia about the situation of Armenians in Baku and Azerbaijan (May 22, 1919) N 296 A circular by Karabakh and Zangezur compatriotic unions to the Commander of British Military forces in Transcaucasia (June 14, 1919) N 358 A report by Kh. Vermishev about the "material losses of Armenian population during the past war" (1920, Tiflis) N 387 The letter of Diplomatic representative of Armenia in Georgia (April 14, 1920, Tiflis). Andranikpasha 22:06, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

This book is online[6], so you can check it!Andranikpasha (talk) 12:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The sources that you cite are not the same book as used in references. If you use a source, you must be able to provide the exact quote on first demand according to the rules. You haven't done so. And copying text from other websites is not acceptable either. Grandmaster (talk) 12:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As for Azerbaijani and Armenian websites and sources, will you be happy if I start using sources like these: [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] If you are going to rely on the Armenian sources, I will have no problem using Azerbaijani ones. But I think it is better to rely on neutral ones, which have no bias in this issue. Grandmaster (talk) 12:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Really? But you're already citing ArmeniaFund site as a reliable one despite my protests. Andranikpasha (talk) 14:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's different. I cite it as an interview source. They would not distort the words of US congressman, as they have no bias against Cox, on the contrary, they love her. In this case they have a strong bias as one of the sides of the conflct. Grandmaster (talk) 18:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster, you can use the ArmenianFund site as an... interview source(?) if you like (or a source by a journalist as the most reliable historical research, etc.) its your decision. In fact its a material on an event issued by Armenia Fund site. Never breake the terms of agreement and then hope to not have a symmetric answer! If you're citing the wording by an ArmeniaFund material on an Armenia-Azerbaijan related person, just cuz they "love her", in that case why to not use the same sources for any city, as they surely love it too! what you say sounds like "when its me its justified anyhow, when its anyone else, its not allowed". Andranikpasha (talk) 20:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Copyright violations removed. I have also removed a small sentence that was out of place in the "Background". Obviously some of the removed facts and the references will need to be restored. I strongly recommend that everyone be very careful to avoid bringing back the same content in the same manner. i.e. go out of your way to re-introduce any contents in an obviously different order and wording. John Vandenberg (talk) 07:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]